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View Full Version : DM Help How can I make this NPC more appealing?



MonkeySage
2015-03-28, 11:28 PM
I need a character who can, pretty much, befriend one of my players who has little attachment to the story line. A character who could potentially hook them in. I have the character's stats and all written down.

Calin de Matei(Alias Cal the Swift) is the 24 year old renegade son of an Earl. He took to adventure, feeling that he could do more for people on the road than he ever could pushing paper from inside a castle. He's a very well educated polyglot, and a level 8 Fighter specialized with the bastard sword.

Cal is a rebel at heart, and takes little pride in his noble upbringing. He feels closer to commoners than nobles, and after leaving the castle to become an adventurer, he left his real name behind. When his father wanted him to study politics, he would instead visit the local tavern in disguise, listening to the bards that came through, stoking his own fascination with poetry.

What might I do to make him feel more real and more endearing?

goto124
2015-03-29, 12:28 AM
Don't try so hard to make him 'appealing'. Usually it leads to the NPC coming off as obnoxious and annoying, especially when he steals the spotlight from the PCs. Such as if he constantly helps (or offers to help) the PCs.

Actually, don't try. Just play him like a normal person. Don't think about 'how do I make him endearing'. Not gonna work.

Maglubiyet
2015-03-29, 12:34 AM
Rich kids are rarely appealing, especially well-educated ones. I'd go with an underdog. An orphan who survived by his wits on the street. Or at least that could be his cover story.

goto124
2015-03-29, 12:41 AM
To add on: there's a good chance of accidentally making a DMPC.

Getting too attached to any NPC is no good.

Luminestra
2015-03-29, 01:16 AM
I really liked the NPC being a polyglot. As long as you played up the amount of effort that takes I think it would be interesting enough.

Amidus Drexel
2015-03-29, 01:20 AM
I need a character who can, pretty much, befriend one of my players who has little attachment to the story line. A character who could potentially hook them in. I have the character's stats and all written down.

Calin de Matei(Alias Cal the Swift) is the 24 year old renegade son of an Earl. He took to adventure, feeling that he could do more for people on the road than he ever could pushing paper from inside a castle. He's a very well educated polyglot, and a level 8 Fighter specialized with the bastard sword.

Cal is a rebel at heart, and takes little pride in his noble upbringing. He feels closer to commoners than nobles, and after leaving the castle to become an adventurer, he left his real name behind. When his father wanted him to study politics, he would instead visit the local tavern in disguise, listening to the bards that came through, stoking his own fascination with poetry.

What might I do to make him feel more real and more endearing?

If you want to endear this NPC to the party, let them see him getting into some kind of conflict with another NPC the party hates - he gets cheated by a shady merchant, bullied by a snobby noble higher up on the totem pole, etc. Use "enemy of my enemy" to your advantage - the PCs can make a potential friend AND get back at the guy they don't like.

I am curious as to why you want him to befriend this PC, though - is Calin due for some trouble later on that you intend to embroil the party in?


Don't try so hard to make him 'appealing'. Usually it leads to the NPC coming off as obnoxious and annoying, especially when he steals the spotlight from the PCs. Such as if he constantly helps (or offers to help) the PCs.

Actually, don't try. Just play him like a normal person. Don't think about 'how do I make him endearing'. Not gonna work.

Gotta love that the first response to "What's a good way to do this?" is "Don't do that." :smalltongue:

I do agree that if the NPC is too eager to help the party, it's probably going to rub them the wrong way.

goto124
2015-03-29, 02:18 AM
I am curious as to why you want him to befriend this PC, though - is Calin due for some trouble later on that you intend to embroil the party in?

I was wondering about this. You can't count on the PCs (or players) developing exactly the type of feelings you want them to have.

jaydubs
2015-03-29, 02:21 AM
I need a character who can, pretty much, befriend one of my players who has little attachment to the story line. A character who could potentially hook them in. I have the character's stats and all written down.

Calin de Matei(Alias Cal the Swift) is the 24 year old renegade son of an Earl. He took to adventure, feeling that he could do more for people on the road than he ever could pushing paper from inside a castle. He's a very well educated polyglot, and a level 8 Fighter specialized with the bastard sword.

Cal is a rebel at heart, and takes little pride in his noble upbringing. He feels closer to commoners than nobles, and after leaving the castle to become an adventurer, he left his real name behind. When his father wanted him to study politics, he would instead visit the local tavern in disguise, listening to the bards that came through, stoking his own fascination with poetry.

What might I do to make him feel more real and more endearing?

So, here's the thing. Players generally have a better time when their PCs are the coolest characters in the story. To that end, they tend to like NPCs that make their own characters look interesting and exciting. So you're generally better off making friendly NPCs seriously flawed (to make the PCs seem more awesome by comparison), and mostly only make enemy NPCs more exciting (so the PCs seem more awesome when they win).

Right now, you've described a rebellious, good-hearted noble who is in disguise to fight for the common man. That's entirely too heroic for an NPC you want them to like. Throw in a bunch of character flaws. Maybe he's out trying to help the people, but he's terrible at it. He causes more problems than he solves. Or he's overly naive, and gets taken advantage of. Perhaps he's actually a coward in his first fight, more bark than bite. Or make him frail and sickly - someone who gets picked on by other NPCs when he's away from his high station in life. And see if the PCs show an interest in making sure he doesn't get killed miserably.

Also, when you look at that NPCs sheet, make sure he's not more powerful than the PCs. If anything, give him worse stats and a lower level (but not so much as to be a complete load they have to drag around). Players hate uber powered NPCs tagging along, since they so often come across as Mary Sue DMPCs.

MonkeySage
2015-03-29, 03:29 AM
So I had the idea in mind that the NPC is after a certain hobgoblin they've been hunting down. . I wasn't going to introduce him until later, the main thing I wanted to use him for was to give one of the PCs an impetus to... pretty much join into the story.

As it stands, she is really the only one in the group who at the moment has no reason to be there, no investment in the plot. It's not that her player doesn't care(I know for fact he does), it's that the character has no realistic reason to. Granted, this is a heroic story I'm trying to tell, and the character is the only one in the group that is actually of good alignment.

So, if I can get this character to like an npc that is invested in the plot(no way she's going to take a shine to the rest of the PCs), I figure that may be enough.

I've got this whole idea of a conspiracy between the country's emperor and the leader of a powerful goblin faction. The npc is hunting down a member of said faction.

The character isn't fully fleshed out yet, and while I'm good at positive traits, I'm sometimes at a loss for coming up with negative traits...

Ken, one of my own PCs, had the flaw that he was reckless, arrogant, and incredibly naive.
I've another character, a wizard: he's aloof, misanthropic, and hates getting involved with what he considers problematic situations, but sometimes lacks the will power to say no.


What I was thinking is... Maybe Cal is Naive and idealistic, thanks to his privileged upbringing? This is similar to the PC i'm trying to endear him to: She's likewise naive, though it's more because she's a wild child(literally).
He's hunting down that hobgoblin too... Perhaps he's gravely underestimated his foe, and will more than likely be putting himself at serious risk.

Now the way I've handled guest characters like this in the past is, give them limited control over that character during fights or in dungeons. They've all, up to this point, been a level behind the Player characters, they've all left when the quest they were in for ended, and they were all built on smaller point buys. If they appeared to have heroic attitudes compared to the actual party... it was more played for laughs than anything (The PCs are not heroes... most of them are just mercenaries that happen to have been hired by the right people.)


Sorry for the somewhat longish post, but I hope it was helpful. :)

goto124
2015-03-29, 03:42 AM
Why doesn't the player give the PC a reason to join? If the player can't come up with a reason, you the DM should talk to the player! To figure out a reason both of you agree on!

Maglubiyet
2015-03-29, 08:50 AM
Why doesn't the player give the PC a reason to join? If the player can't come up with a reason, you the DM should talk to the player! To figure out a reason both of you agree on!

I agree. This NPC idea is an incredibly complex plan that requires many things to go right to work. All it takes is a little suspicion and he's out.

Why is there no way she can become invested through the other PC's? She doesn't necessarily have to like them (at first). All it takes is a reason to work together -- same employer, common short-term goal, traveling in the same direction, in the same bar when it gets raided by the town guard.

Lacco
2015-03-29, 09:10 AM
I need a character who can, pretty much, befriend one of my players who has little attachment to the story line. A character who could potentially hook them in. I have the character's stats and all written down.

Calin de Matei(Alias Cal the Swift) is the 24 year old renegade son of an Earl. He took to adventure, feeling that he could do more for people on the road than he ever could pushing paper from inside a castle. He's a very well educated polyglot, and a level 8 Fighter specialized with the bastard sword.

Cal is a rebel at heart, and takes little pride in his noble upbringing. He feels closer to commoners than nobles, and after leaving the castle to become an adventurer, he left his real name behind. When his father wanted him to study politics, he would instead visit the local tavern in disguise, listening to the bards that came through, stoking his own fascination with poetry.

What might I do to make him feel more real and more endearing?

I would also go with "don't try". If you want to push it through the NPC, be prepared for possible failure/backfire.

The underdog advice was quite well. I would make him the third son/bastard if you need (he is not missed by his father if he goes somewhere outside castle).

Sense of humor is a must. Well educated? Maybe. Polyglot? I wouldn't go this way - too large probability of players tagging him "NPC universal translator".

What would help me, would be to know more about the player/PC. What NPCs did the player react positively to in the past? And who is the character you want to get interested in the story?

The idealism could help make him likable, if it's not overdone. Maybe if they find him protecting someone from the hobgoblin's thugs/common bandits. Wounded, barely standing his ground against too many opponents, who just ridicule him and slowly try to kill him. The "I knew I couldn't win, but they focused on me and let the peasants/ladies/kittens go" argument should be fine if she (the PC) likes heroics.

Then you need a reason for him to stick with the party. The hobgoblin issue could help, if they are mercenaries - let him ask them for help, and that he knows someone in the local castle (the guy himself or maybe the Earl) who maybe would be interested in paying them.

Another advice would be - don't focus on one NPC. Prepare several ones, each with ties to the intended story (hobgoblin) and present them to the PC. If she likes the first one, it's fine. If not, bring the second one.

And very important - do you know what the player finds likable/interesting on people?
E.g. one of my players values honesty much. He will not like thieving/lying NPCs very much. But he also likes if people have big mouth, joke around and are brave. So honest brave thief is a good match for him. Honeymouthed thief, who lies all the time and retreats from each fight... not so much.

Jay R
2015-03-29, 09:54 AM
If you want the PCs to like him, let them save his life.

goto124
2015-03-29, 10:09 AM
Does that work? Won't they see him as the Dude in Distress or something?

Thrudd
2015-03-29, 11:28 AM
So I had the idea in mind that the NPC is after a certain hobgoblin they've been hunting down. . I wasn't going to introduce him until later, the main thing I wanted to use him for was to give one of the PCs an impetus to... pretty much join into the story.

As it stands, she is really the only one in the group who at the moment has no reason to be there, no investment in the plot. It's not that her player doesn't care(I know for fact he does), it's that the character has no realistic reason to. Granted, this is a heroic story I'm trying to tell, and the character is the only one in the group that is actually of good alignment.

So, if I can get this character to like an npc that is invested in the plot(no way she's going to take a shine to the rest of the PCs), I figure that may be enough.
(

There are problems here which really require out of game/pre game solutions.

1.). Why is there a character with no reason to join the story? The player should have been asked to make a character that is appropriate for the type of game you are going to play, and also fits in some way with the other characters.
1a.) If the player can't think of any reason their character would either participate in the story or even hang out with the other characters, then they should probably leave that character behind and create a new one that fits in better.

2.) presuming #1 was fulfilled, Once the characters are established, why would you introduce an adventure that they have no reason to participate in? You mention that you want a heroic story, but only one character is good. You should have asked them all to make good or heroic characters for a heroic story, or give up the idea for this story.

3.) You can't make the player do anything, and you can't predict how they will react to a specific NPC. You could suggest this NPC idea to the player, out of game, and see if they would agree for that to be the character's motive in the story: basically introducing an NPC friend that the character wants to help. Maybe even let the player have input into the NPCs story and a preestablished relationship to his character.

You still have the long term problem that this character doesn't fit with and doesn't like the other PC's. Unless this is a "one and done" adventure campaign, that issue will need to be addressed. You don't want to railroad these characters together repeatedly, so something needs to give. Hopefully, the players will portray their characters as coming to like and respect eachother in some way, developing loyalty to one another through shared experiences. If not, you've got a problem that might require one or more new characters.

Sith_Happens
2015-03-29, 12:13 PM
Does that work? Won't they see him as the Dude in Distress or something?

Probably, but that's actually usually a plus on the NPC likability scale. Especially if he promptly begins making witty banter upon being rescued.

Rad Mage
2015-03-29, 12:22 PM
3.) You can't make the player do anything, and you can't predict how they will react to a specific NPC. You could suggest this NPC idea to the player, out of game, and see if they would agree for that to be the character's motive in the story: basically introducing an NPC friend that the character wants to help. Maybe even let the player have input into the NPCs story and a preestablished relationship to his character.



This is extremely important. Yes it is the DM's job to flesh out the world and drop quest hooks. But it is the Player's job to explore the world and pick up those hooks. If you want to get the player more engaged I would recommend asking them ooc what they wanted out of the game and then try to work that in. This should help give you an idea of what the NPC should be like.

Keltest
2015-03-29, 01:35 PM
I think a large part of it depends on what kind of players you are running the game for. The party I am currently DMing for, for example, would not find anything mentioned in this thread appealing in an NPC. Their primary concerns are A: Is he useful as a traveling companion (or at least not detrimental) and B: can we crack jokes at his expense out of character? The first ever NPC the party met who was meaningful in any way was a paladin with a warhorse. The DM who at the time was not me had not named the warhorse, so we called him Sillypants, because why not. He quickly became endearing to us, and we were pretty unhappy when our lookout went and let him get captured in the middle of the night (We kept Sillypants with us). The second NPC we traveled with was a dwarf berserker we rescued from some spiders who had cocooned him. Our wizard accidentally set his cocoon on fire with a fireball spell, and it burned his beard off. Later, we got him killed and turned into a zombie (he got better). Needless to say, the poor dwarf wanted nothing more to do with us, but it was hilarious to us out of character how many times we seemed to keep doing unfortunate things to him.

Those characters became far more memorable than any sort of quest NPC we traveled with.

MonkeySage
2015-03-29, 04:18 PM
So, part of the reason that the PC is not so deeply invested in the main storyline so much is that hers is more of a "figure out how to get home" plot. She's in a foreign country on a different continent, has no idea how she got there, and just wants to get home.
As for the other players, a lot of them were there back when I hadn't actually formalized the setting and figured out what was going on(this setting is entirely my own design). Up till now they've been invested in the storyline mainly because the party leader, a much more heroic character, was. I originally hadn't planned on it being a heroic storyline, just threw in some baddies and decided they were working together for some ultimate conspiracy. Now that the player is on indefinite hiatus due to schedule conflict, the rest of the party has to figure out why they care about the storyline at all. Their characters are all neutral: A CN alchemist from a foreign country, looking for new recipes. An LN Dwarf whose druid coven was recently attacked and destroyed by hobgoblins. A CN wizard, whose main motivation is to learn new spells.

The new player is playing a CG ranger/sorceress from an entirely different continent and no real connection to the other players, other than possibly finding out how to get home through them. She's a fey shapeshifter, spent her whole life in the wild. One day she seduced a human, and because of that she was cursed, so that she can never fully hide her fey traits- tail, eyes, etc. She has a tendency to see the good in anyone she meets, but doesn't understand humans or their causes. She's perpetually curious, and often behaves inappropriately simply because she doesn't know better.

Oh, and I worked a bit on Cal too: He's younger, for one. He's level 5 now, he has weaker abilities. He's more intelligent, but not nearly as strong. I plan to emphasize his naivete and idealism. And I'm not going to just try and make him appeal to players, just... relegate him to more the role of quest giver and temporary guest npc. He'd be the way my players find out about this Hobgoblin Captain, someone personally harmed by the goblins, and I liked the suggestion that the players pull him out of a rough situation, save him from being outnumbered and outmatched.
I'll be pleased if it happens, but I'm not going to try and make my players like him.

Keltest
2015-03-29, 04:41 PM
So, part of the reason that the PC is not so deeply invested in the main storyline so much is that hers is more of a "figure out how to get home" plot. She's in a foreign country on a different continent, has no idea how she got there, and just wants to get home.
As for the other players, a lot of them were there back when I hadn't actually formalized the setting and figured out what was going on(this setting is entirely my own design). Up till now they've been invested in the storyline mainly because the party leader, a much more heroic character, was. I originally hadn't planned on it being a heroic storyline, just threw in some baddies and decided they were working together for some ultimate conspiracy. Now that the player is on indefinite hiatus due to schedule conflict, the rest of the party has to figure out why they care about the storyline at all. Their characters are all neutral: A CN alchemist from a foreign country, looking for new recipes. An LN Dwarf whose druid coven was recently attacked and destroyed by hobgoblins. A CN wizard, whose main motivation is to learn new spells.

The new player is playing a CG ranger/sorceress from an entirely different continent and no real connection to the other players, other than possibly finding out how to get home through them. She's a fey shapeshifter, spent her whole life in the wild. One day she seduced a human, and because of that she was cursed, so that she can never fully hide her fey traits- tail, eyes, etc. She has a tendency to see the good in anyone she meets, but doesn't understand humans or their causes. She's perpetually curious, and often behaves inappropriately simply because she doesn't know better.

Oh, and I worked a bit on Cal too: He's younger, for one. He's level 5 now, he has weaker abilities. He's more intelligent, but not nearly as strong. I plan to emphasize his naivete and idealism. And I'm not going to just try and make him appeal to players, just... relegate him to more the role of quest giver and temporary guest npc. He'd be the way my players find out about this Hobgoblin Captain, someone personally harmed by the goblins, and I liked the suggestion that the players pull him out of a rough situation, save him from being outnumbered and outmatched.
I'll be pleased if it happens, but I'm not going to try and make my players like him.

I have always found that a good way to motivate the party beyond the initial "bounty" levels and quests is to have the antagonists make it personal. Send some assassins after them or otherwise wrong them. The reactions will differ a bit, but the overall result will usually be 'Lets get the bastards!"

Maglubiyet
2015-03-29, 04:44 PM
Why don't you just make the fey the mouthpiece and cut Cal out altogether? Whatever he was supposed to know she knows instead. Maybe she thinks this hobgoblin guy is the key to discovering how she got here or how to get back home, so she's been looking for him.

They all meet when she gets in trouble and needs rescuing. The alchemist heard about her and was going to talk to her about some rare herbs rumored to exist on her continent. PC's arrive to witness an abduction attempt. She's been asking a lot of questions so the hobgoblin's agents want to find out why or maybe silence her.

Sith_Happens
2015-03-29, 04:49 PM
that the player is on indefinite hiatus due to schedule conflict, the rest of the party has to figure out why they care about the storyline at all.

Easy: Because the "ultimate conspiracy" would be bad news for them if it came to fruition. And/or they've already made enemies of the conspirators who now have it out for them.


She's a fey shapeshifter

Hello most obvious of all plot hooks: Get other fey involved. Preferably ones who seem to know something about her situation but won't spill the beans.

MonkeySage
2015-03-29, 05:42 PM
Alright, Conspirators :D

The Emperor (Ringleader)
Goblin Commander (Reichstag Gambit)
Headmaster of Mage Assassination Academy (Secret Police)

The Commander's role is to put pressure on outlying states, so that they'll submit to imperial rule without a fight. They also hunt down and secure a specific set of MacGuffins.
The Headmaster is in charge of a secret police force. He's also been sending assassins after the party on the commander's request.
The Emperor is in charge of the operation. He wants to silence a demon death cult that wants to use the macguffins above to resurrect their goddess. His co conspirators are in on it. But they cannot let the public know about the cult, they fear more people will start joining. The Emperor is kind of tyrannical Knight Templar in this regard. And of course the players don't yet know about the cult, and the only people they've met that represent the cult all came across as sympathetic rebels against tyranny.

I mentioned those MacGuffins: The players have secured a few of them in different ways. Two of them were found in dungeons. They're a dagger and a shortsword, both holy cold iron artifacts. The third is a holy cold iron dagger that the fey discovered(she's not the sort of fey that is vulnerable to cold iron).

Now, I was out for a walk and I thought: What if this hobgoblin leader knew where the commander's base was?