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KoDT69
2007-04-12, 09:29 AM
I am feeling particularly noobish, but where is the Wealth by Level chart on the SRD? I could swear I saw it on there before. I know it's in the DMG, but I am not at home with my books.

I also am still having some issues with players insisting on using Craft skills and feats to utter reckless abandon for the rules. I thought they were under wraps on that and last session I started hearing stuff again like "oh my shield also has the speed property" as in really "umm I decided I wanted it without asking and since you didn't notice right away, I thought it would be OK". Yah, like I knew he was adding stuff to his sheet, I only check them once in a great while to track progress and general power level. I also include a comprehensive list of their coinage, magic items, and any major but limited use items. The property was not only excluded to begin with, but put the effective bonus of the shield to +11 which is utterly ludacris. Humph... I guess that really moody Wizard they think is an ally, or at least in certain cases comparable to one, will just happen to stock up on Disjunctions, Forcecages, Celerities, and Time Stops. I hate to do a mass removal, but one player will be the target only, the offending player.

I'm also hearing "I can use Craft: Alchemy skill to increase a poison DC by 5 and double it's effect". I didn't see that outlined anywhere, so did I miss it or does a certain player need to be put back in his place?

Now before I go smiting this guy in and out of the game, are there any rules for collaborative efforts (Aid Another basically) for creating magic items? If they have the ability to produce what they have, fine, but I highly doubt it by any stretch. The highest one is 14th level, only 10 cleric levels and 4 fighter (cuz he wanted more feats, haha, so not worth it I thought).

Morty
2007-04-12, 09:37 AM
I am feeling particularly noobish, but where is the Wealth by Level chart on the SRD? I could swear I saw it on there before. I know it's in the DMG, but I am not at home with my books.



As far as I know, WBL isn't in SRD. It's one of the reasons you can't technically play only with SRD(though WBL is one of the least important non-SRD stuff).

Zherog
2007-04-12, 09:38 AM
Wealth by Level is not in the SRD. That information is not part of the open game content.

The primary purpose of the SRD is to provide the necessary rules to third party publishers. Those publishers do not need wealth by level, so it's not there.

More generically, anything having to do with character creation (XP, wealth by level, point buy, etc) is not found in the SRD. WotC wants you to buy the books to get that info.

edit:

As for the player with the shield... you need to have a talk with the player, and the speed property needs to go away. Ideally, after your talk the player understands and agrees; but don't be afraid to get heavy-handed in this instance.

and on this:


I'm also hearing "I can use Craft: Alchemy skill to increase a poison DC by 5 and double it's effect". I didn't see that outlined anywhere, so did I miss it or does a certain player need to be put back in his place?

It doesn't sound familiar to me, but I wouldn't be the least bit surpised if the rule exists. Get the player to show you the rules, then read them. Then read them again. Decide if you're OK with the rules. If so, let the player know it's OK. If not, tell the player that you aren't playing with that rule.

One thing to remember if the rule exists and you allow it. Any time a player manipulates poison, he runs the risk of poisoning himself. Roll a d20, and if he rolls a one he's accidentally poisoned himself. Just a (core) rule to keep in mind.

Kurobara
2007-04-12, 09:43 AM
put the effective bonus of the shield to +11 which is utterly ludacris.

Not only is it ludicrous, but if you're sticking to RAW, it's simply not allowed.


A shield cannot have an effective bonus (enhancement plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +10.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm

It's always DM prerogative to allow higher effective bonuses if they (i.e. you) like though, of course. Just like with anything else.

Telonius
2007-04-12, 10:01 AM
It's standard practice for our group to clear all Magic Item purchases or Magic Item crafting with the DM. If the DM doesn't know about it, the character doesn't have it. Period.

For the Craft (Alchemy) issue, is this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#craftAlchemy)what they're talking about?



Create Augmented Alchemical Item or Substance

This requires the Augmented Alchemy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#augmentedAlchemy) feat, and allows a character to create alchemical items and substances of greater power than normal. To augment an alchemical substance, add +20 to the DC required to create the item and multiply the cost by 5. If the item or substance deals damage, double the damage dealt. If the item or substance doesn’t deal damage, double the duration of its effect. If the item or substance doesn’t deal damage and doesn’t have a specific listed duration (or has an instantaneous duration), double all dimensions of its area. If the item or substance doesn’t fit any of these categories, then it cannot be improved in this manner. A character can create an item with multiple degrees of augmentation. For every additional multiplier applied to damage, duration, or area, add an additional +20 to the DC and add an additional 5 to the cost multiplier.


If so, that's an Epic Skill Use. So,
NO.

Rigeld2
2007-04-12, 10:32 AM
I thought they were under wraps on that and last session I started hearing stuff again like "oh my shield also has the speed property" as in really "umm I decided I wanted it without asking and since you didn't notice right away, I thought it would be OK".


Speed

When making a full attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fullAttack) action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it. The attack uses the wielder’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/haste.htm) spell.)
Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#craftMagicArmsAndArmor), haste (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/haste.htm); Price +3 bonus.
Speed cant go on a shield, first of all. Second, is he shield bashing? Third, how did he get access to Haste? Third, assuming the shield is +10 effective, it took him 100 days to enchant.

All that is just off the top of my head. Oh, and it cant be more than a +3 shield, because of

Creating magic armor has a special prerequisite: The creator’s caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#enhancementBonus) of the armor. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met.

Saph
2007-04-12, 10:33 AM
Don't forget crafting times!

A shield with +6 in abilities costs 36,000. A shield with +10 in abilities costs 100,000. So if you're upgrading it, that's 64,000 GP difference. That takes 64 days of work to be completed, plus however long it takes you to find a wizard or cleric who's high enough level and willing to do the work in the first place.

- Saph

Rigeld2
2007-04-12, 10:35 AM
Actually... since the base price is 100k, and the crafting time is based on the base price... its 100 days even for the upgrade.

Saph
2007-04-12, 10:40 AM
Really? I thought it was just based on how much money you were spending.

- Saph

Rigeld2
2007-04-12, 10:43 AM
Really? I thought it was just based on how much money you were spending.

- Saph

Crafting magic armor requires one day for each 1,000 gp value of the base price.
Emphasis mine.

The cost to do this is the same as if the item was not magical. Thus, a +1 longsword can be made into a +2 vorpal longsword, with the cost to create it being equal to that of a +2 vorpal sword minus the cost of a +1 sword.

The cost to add a new ability doesnt say it changes the base price.

KoDT69
2007-04-12, 10:44 AM
It seems at the time of infraction I gave somewhat lenient restrictions in good faith it would be used as I intended, and in fact almost told them exactly what the extra would yield. After reviewing character sheets last game session, I discovered distorted and barely resembling items as those I allowed. They had ample time, but the ability is the issue. I got no beef letting them hide out for a few months for a good reason, but not to cheat. I am deeply disappointed that a moment of generosity turned into a moment of deceit and cheesey ignorance of the RAW on their part.

Dausuul
2007-04-12, 10:53 AM
I also am still having some issues with players insisting on using Craft skills and feats to utter reckless abandon for the rules. I thought they were under wraps on that and last session I started hearing stuff again like "oh my shield also has the speed property" as in really "umm I decided I wanted it without asking and since you didn't notice right away, I thought it would be OK". Yah, like I knew he was adding stuff to his sheet, I only check them once in a great while to track progress and general power level. I also include a comprehensive list of their coinage, magic items, and any major but limited use items. The property was not only excluded to begin with, but put the effective bonus of the shield to +11 which is utterly ludacris. Humph... I guess that really moody Wizard they think is an ally, or at least in certain cases comparable to one, will just happen to stock up on Disjunctions, Forcecages, Celerities, and Time Stops. I hate to do a mass removal, but one player will be the target only, the offending player.

This isn't a good way to resolve the problem. The answer is to talk to the player and say, "You can't just add magic properties to your items at random. Talk to me first." And then conduct periodic audits of his character sheet.

Removing the items in-game (by Disjunction, etc.) just gives the impression that he had the items legitimately in the first place.


I'm also hearing "I can use Craft: Alchemy skill to increase a poison DC by 5 and double it's effect". I didn't see that outlined anywhere, so did I miss it or does a certain player need to be put back in his place?

Sh'yeah, right. If there is such a skill use, the DC has to be through the roof. My rule on any outlandish claims such as this is: Show me where it's in the rules and let me read it for myself. The Court of RAW does not admit hearsay as evidence. :)

9 times out of 10, it turns out that the player has forgotten some hefty balancing factor that makes the ability not nearly as cool as s/he thought it was. The 10th time, it actually is that powerful, in which case I may or may not nerf it.


Now before I go smiting this guy in and out of the game, are there any rules for collaborative efforts (Aid Another basically) for creating magic items? If they have the ability to produce what they have, fine, but I highly doubt it by any stretch. The highest one is 14th level, only 10 cleric levels and 4 fighter (cuz he wanted more feats, haha, so not worth it I thought).

Yes, characters can collaborate on item creation. When two characters collaborate, they can make the item as long as they can meet the prereqs between them. So if you had an item that required wish and miracle, you'd pretty much have to have a 17th-level wizard collaborate with a 17th-level cleric to make it (either that or dig up an epic-level mystic theurge from someplace).

Collaborating characters' abilities do not "stack" in any way. That is, if something requires caster level 10 to make, two level 5 casters cannot collaborate to make it--some one person in the group has to actually meet that prereq.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-04-12, 10:53 AM
The cost to add a new ability doesnt say it changes the base price.

No you are right, time is never mentioned under the "Adding New Abilities" in the SRD.

However, the example on page 234 of the Magic Item Compendium uses the price difference, not the base price, to determine how much time it takes to improve an item.

CharPixie
2007-04-12, 12:03 PM
There's different degrees of problems. If he's just adding the enchantment to his sheet without deducting any cost, then he's clearly cheating and you have to deal with that issue first.

Even if he's not outright cheating, he is doing things behind your back. That's a dangerous trend to let comtinue. If he hasn't really been a problem before now, just sit down and talk to him. Try pointing out that what he made isn't rules-legal in a couple of ways; it might help reinforce your point that you would like things run through you.

Starbuck_II
2007-04-12, 12:13 PM
I am feeling particularly noobish, but where is the Wealth by Level chart on the SRD? I could swear I saw it on there before. I know it's in the DMG, but I am not at home with my books.

I also am still having some issues with players insisting on using Craft skills and feats to utter reckless abandon for the rules. I thought they were under wraps on that and last session I started hearing stuff again like "oh my shield also has the speed property" as in really "umm I decided I wanted it without asking and since you didn't notice right away, I thought it would be OK". Yah, like I knew he was adding stuff to his sheet, I only check them once in a great while to track progress and general power level.

Well, did he mention he wanted to increasd it in town: maybe he thought that was good enough to ask.


I know I always bug my DM with I'm doing this and that. That way when I make the item: I can happily say I told you what I was doing.


I also include a comprehensive list of their coinage, magic items, and any major but limited use items. The property was not only excluded to begin with, but put the effective bonus of the shield to +11 which is utterly ludacris.
.
What was his shield before? +8? Because remember Speed only adds +3 so he has be very rich to get a +8 equialent shield.
Heck, even more so to add Speed. problem is speed is for weapons also. Granted Shields can be enhanced as a weapon (after becoming +1 magical for weapon).

KoDT69
2007-04-12, 12:50 PM
The shield started as a standard +5 that they found in treasure and the armor was full plate +5 as well. That was about the top end they could expect for a while. The simple fact when I gave the green light to the cleric to craft some items, it was supposed to be for the 4 lower level PC's in the group. I said nothing of allowing higher end stuff to be made. I was generous in allowing up to +6 effective bonus to the 4 weapons, which I also outlined specifically what they would be... +4 enhancement with <insert energy> burst. The cleric and barbarian both 3 or 4 levels above the others had way more and better gear already. What I ended up seeing is 2 weapons on each PC, armor not only +5 AC but with 3 or more abilities each, and most would have ben illegal given the proper level due to lack of arcane magics. I thought a decent weapon would benefit the less optimal players, and I got burned with my monsters...
For the main armor and shield they ended up on his sheet as:
+5 full plate (greater elemental resist 30/- against each type, heavy fortification, and freedom)
+5 large shield (throwing, returning, distance, and speed)
Oh yah and this:
+5 Mace (disruption, impact, speed)
Yah, I didn't approve any of that crap... Disjunctions will rain from the sky. I agree this will send the message possibly that it WAS ok for it to happen, but it will also say DON'T PULL THAT AGAIN OR ELSE! I will also be using improved sunder type monsters, bebiliths, and negative elementals from 2nd edition.

Saph
2007-04-12, 12:53 PM
Why bother? Just say: "You don't have those items."

The players are cheating. You don't sic monsters on them when they cheat, you enforce the rules.

- Saph

KoDT69
2007-04-12, 01:00 PM
But destroying the items with monsters as well as laying a smack-down in-game seems more fun to me, since they already had their fun.

kamikasei
2007-04-12, 01:04 PM
Turning the game into DM-vs-players is not likely to be "fun". There's no realistic way that they could just go "poof!" and have all these enhancements appear on their armor; either they're cheating, or they don't know the rules. In the latter case, a retcon and explanation is appropriate. In the former case, responding with DM smite will not likely stop them cheating.

Rigeld2
2007-04-12, 01:07 PM
+5 full plate (greater elemental resist 30/- against each type, heavy fortification, and freedom)
Total upgrade price assuming Freedom at 40k (its not in the SRD as an armor enchantment, I'm just tossing the cost of a ring in there): 445k meaning 445 days. Over 1 year for 1 item. That makes it Epic. Oh, and he doesnt have the caster levels for Greater Resistance.

+5 large shield (throwing, returning, distance, and speed)Again, Epic, simply because thats a +11 total bonus. And thats ignoring the dubious use of weapon enchantments on a shield, and the fact that Throwing doesnt make something a ranged weapon, which returning and distance require. (thats debateable tho, so ill give it)
Cost in days to upgrade: 75 days, ignoring one of the +1 enchantments

+5 Mace (disruption, impact, speed)Doesnt meet the CL for Disruption, Impact isnt in the SRD, but whatever it costs makes it Epic. Disruption is +2, Speed is +3, and +5 makes it +10. Days to upgrade? 150. (ignoring Impact)

You didnt have to approve it. Its all illegal. Plus, did you really give him almost 2 years to craft just for himself, let alone what monstrositys he made for the rest of the group?

Zherog
2007-04-12, 01:28 PM
Again, Epic, simply because thats a +11 total bonus. And thats ignoring the dubious use of weapon enchantments on a shield, and the fact that Throwing doesnt make something a ranged weapon, which returning and distance require. (thats debateable tho, so ill give it)

No, it's OK to have weapon enhancements on a shield. However, you have to track them separately. That is, the shield was already a +5. I'll assume that was a "defensive" +5. If you want to make it a weapon as well, you would need to first add a +1 "offensive" enhancement bonus, then you could add the other stuff.

And again, their tracked separately. As a defensive item, it would have a +5 enhancement bonus; as an offensive item, it would have a +1 enhancement bonus.


Doesnt meet the CL for Disruption,

Caster Level is not a prerequisite for making an item. As long as you can somehow supply the pre-reqs (typically feats and spells, sometimes a certain race, alignment, skill ranks, etc) then you can craft the item - even if your caster level is lower than the one listed for the item.

KoDT69
2007-04-12, 01:32 PM
The point is that the main offending player disregarded what I said in the hopes that I would let it slide. He blatantly disagrees with the RAW on magic item creation due to a long running campaign we had in 2nd edition where apparently he felt it was so much easier to make powerful items. Sure, go ahead and compare. It was more expensive gold-wise, took longer to do in a lot of cases (1 month per +1 of the total item), costed no XP, but did have a failure chance proportional to your level and the item's power. So you could have gotten lucky, but pushing your luck just was a big waste. I only plan to smite those that did not contribute to the offense. 3 of the players got exactly what I outlined and should not suffer for that. The other 2 ignored when I said exactly what to make and wrote other junk down. And Impact is an enhancement like keen for blunt weapons, don't remember where it's from though? I even asked more than once to readjust the items and was lied to about that as well.
And the SRD states you can only craft up to +1 per 3 caster levels total, let alone individual property requirements.

Rigeld2
2007-04-12, 01:33 PM
Caster Level is not a prerequisite for making an item. As long as you can somehow supply the pre-reqs (typically feats and spells, sometimes a certain race, alignment, skill ranks, etc) then you can craft the item - even if your caster level is lower than the one listed for the item.From the SRD:

Creating magic armor has a special prerequisite: The creator’s caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#enhancementBonus) of the armor. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met.
Emphasis mine. So really, since the enhancement has a higher CL than the other things that were added, he couldnt enchant any of them.

KoDT69
2007-04-12, 01:57 PM
Yes, and that's exactly why I told him and the other player with +5 stuff they could not make anything for themselves. They blatantly ignored what I said and added +6 additional on top of all their stuff. As a DM, wouldn't that make you a bit angry at that?

kamikasei
2007-04-12, 02:08 PM
It seems clear that they are knowingly cheating and that you do have a legitimate reason to be ticked off. If they're willing to simply ignore your rulings as DM, though, then I doubt that any amount of disjoining will help you. If they aren't amenable to resolving the issue outside of play (which is where a rules question belongs), and to play by the rules as written and as DM'd by you, then they shouldn't play in your game. If that's the inevitable end point of the situation, then pulling in-game hijinks in order to arrive at there will accomplish nothing but to create bad feeling.

Tellah
2007-04-12, 02:18 PM
I recommend also that your next campaign with these players, if there is one, be at a lower level, perhaps the 5-10 range. Players who can't be trusted to do complex paperwork without cheating have no business running higher-level characters. I think you'll save yourself a lot of headaches.

KoDT69
2007-04-12, 02:18 PM
That may be true in most cases, but an argument out of the game can be more straining on a friendship than say, a lucky *cough cough* roll or 2 from an enemy caster in-game with a strong supporting plotline being something to the effect that they invoked evil spirits unknowingly to gain those magic enhancements and now they are exacting revenge. I dunno, it's really one offending player, and the second one may legitimately not know any better by RAW but went along with the other guy in ignoring me. Besides, such squishy characters with such nice gear... Word gets around :smallbiggrin:

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-04-12, 03:20 PM
Total upgrade price assuming Freedom at 40k (its not in the SRD as an armor enchantment, I'm just tossing the cost of a ring in there):...

Freedom is in the Magic Item Compendium (page 11) in case anyone is curious.
It is a a +5 enhancement bonus.

Zincorium
2007-04-12, 04:10 PM
That may be true in most cases, but an argument out of the game can be more straining on a friendship than say, a lucky *cough cough* roll or 2 from an enemy caster in-game with a strong supporting plotline being something to the effect that they invoked evil spirits unknowingly to gain those magic enhancements and now they are exacting revenge. I dunno, it's really one offending player, and the second one may legitimately not know any better by RAW but went along with the other guy in ignoring me. Besides, such squishy characters with such nice gear... Word gets around :smallbiggrin:

Still, it's an in-game 'solution' to an out of game problem.

Whats to stop them from making more items? You already let them make them once, they'll feel justified in claiming you're being unfair. You've already shown you don't like confrontation, that's okay, but it's a poor quality to have as a DM.

One of the many hats the DM wears is that of referee. By agreeing to play D&D, the players have already agreed to play using the rules of the game. Violating the rules means they broke an agreement with you and with each other, although since they're cooperating none of them are going to stop each other.

Seriously, just tell them that there are rules, what they've been doing does not follow the rules, and that it's making the game less fun for you. That last bit is the important part. If you don't like them doing this, use the friendship that you don't want to lose as a reason for them to stop. If your friends are the kind of people that would do things even after they know you're not having fun because of them, you're out of luck.

Rigeld2
2007-04-12, 04:28 PM
Freedom is in the Magic Item Compendium (page 11) in case anyone is curious.
It is a a +5 enhancement bonus.
So, it pushes the armor even farther Epic than it already was.

If this was my group, I'd literally start tearing up char sheets, and starting over. If I lose players, I'm better off without them.