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jjpickar
2007-04-12, 10:24 AM
Simply put, which is better? I prefer the ranged ranger myself with multi-shot and rapid shot becoming available without all the hassle. But mechanically I'm not sure which is the better choice.

Piccamo
2007-04-12, 10:26 AM
Generally I have felt the ranged ranger is stronger, but that goes for most archer types versus their melee counterpart.

its_all_ogre
2007-04-12, 11:03 AM
ranged is better because twf is nerfed unless you are full attacking, you can full attack with a bow more frequently than with two swords because you do not need to close with your foe.
twf is only advantageous against giants who could close with an archer and then your archer provokes if he does not move.
(cause you'd be adjacent to the giant a five foot step would place you in his threatening area still.)

the_tick_rules
2007-04-12, 11:16 AM
i've alawys thought rangers worked better as ranged. if ya wanna twf it up why not go fighter?

Da Beast
2007-04-12, 11:29 AM
I've always prefered ranged for the wilderness sniper archtype.

Counterspin
2007-04-12, 11:31 AM
Another vote for ranged here.

jjpickar
2007-04-12, 11:37 AM
Does anybody have some good ranged ranger tactics? I thought that having elemental damage on your bow combined with multishot would add up to a whole lotta damage. +1 Shocking Longbow + Multishot with 3 arrows = 3d8+3d6=:smallsmile:

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-04-12, 11:44 AM
Always have an assortment of Bane arrows and max your hide skill.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-12, 11:51 AM
Full Attack (especially w/ Rapid Shot) > Manyshot.

jjpickar
2007-04-12, 12:19 PM
Really? Let me see. (Thinks about it, grabs his phb, looks at high level ranger and remembers the full BAB) Yeah I guess they net more attacks that way. Still its a full attack instead of a standard action so no shot on the run for you.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-12, 12:23 PM
...um. Re-read shot on the run. Note what kind of action it lets you take. Note what kind of action Manyshot is.

jjpickar
2007-04-12, 12:29 PM
PHB 139 Standard action=Attack action in my book.

Edit: List of action types on PHB 138-139

Standard
Move
Full-Round
Free
Not an Action
Restricted activity

Attack falls under Standard.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-12, 12:30 PM
You can use a standard action to attack (or move), but an attack action is not a standard action. An attack action allows only a single attack; a standard action allows a host of other things, such as spellcasting, movement, drinking a potion, et cetera.

jjpickar
2007-04-12, 12:32 PM
Where is that written down? (I don't disbelieve you but I just want somewhere to refer.)

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-12, 12:49 PM
Um, right where actions are described? In the combat rules section of the PHB? You can also find it in the SRD under Combat.

Diggorian
2007-04-12, 12:54 PM
I see it specifically answered in the official 3.5 D&D FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/Main35FAQv03232007.zip), top left column of page 32.

I'll agree too that ranged is best for ranger, although I admittedly prefer to play TWF versions.

jjpickar
2007-04-12, 12:59 PM
Thanks for the FAQ Diggorian. Sorry Bears but without the FAQ its pretty much up to interpretation.

Diggorian
2007-04-12, 01:07 PM
No problem.

Also, for the record, Bears is usually correct in his rules interpretation. What he lacks in tact is more than made up for in technical clarity. :smallbiggrin:

Ramza00
2007-04-12, 01:13 PM
Depends what you are trying to use them for, your feats, the monsters, the terrain.

The J Pizzel
2007-04-12, 01:13 PM
A buddy of mine played a ranged ranger last campaign. He was pretty damn effective if you asked me. One thing he did that was totally worth it - he dipped into the Order of the Bow Initiate (a Prc that is actually not very good) for a couple of levels until he got the class ability that lets you shoot your bow in melee w/o provoking AoOs. Normally this isn't a good Prc, but it saved him on more than one occasion.

jp

Ramza00
2007-04-12, 01:14 PM
And there is an easy Ranger spell that does the exact same thing in the spell compedium.

Also EWM also gives a similar ability if I recall.

The J Pizzel
2007-04-12, 01:18 PM
good to know!!

Quietus
2007-04-12, 01:39 PM
It doesn't take the FAQ to know that manyshot doesn't work with Shot on the Run, if you take a look. As noted, Shot on the Run specifies an attack action, while manyshot specifies standard. An attack action is anything - tripping, disarming, grappling, etc - that can be done in the course of a full attack. Standard is slightly different, and can be used AS an attack action.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-04-12, 01:48 PM
TWF is so bad that if you want to play a melee ranger, you're likely better off grabbing a greatsword and using the archery tree to cover those occasions when you can't hit melee range.

So yeah. Do the ranged one.

Morty
2007-04-12, 03:48 PM
TWF is so bad that if you want to play a melee ranger, you're likely better off grabbing a greatsword and using the archery tree to cover those occasions when you can't hit melee range.

So yeah. Do the ranged one.

Actually, ranger is one of the few classes for which the TWF can be viable, due to Favored Enemy and some spells. Though I'd rather go into ranged combat if I was ever to play ranger.

Matthew
2007-04-12, 04:08 PM
True, but it's not enough. Favoured Enemy can be great at Low Levels, but it's usefulness starts to wain as past level 5 or so.

The Combat Style Class Feature is a trap. The Dexterity prerequisites the Ranger is more than likely already going to meet, so it just becomes a lock in. Overall, the Ranged Combat Style is best.

Rad
2007-04-12, 04:48 PM
Actually, ranger is one of the few classes for which the TWF can be viable, due to Favored Enemy and some spells. Though I'd rather go into ranged combat if I was ever to play ranger.

How exactly? Every time I looked into it, TWF was worse than a 2-handed weapon like... always. Just curious.

Matthew
2007-04-12, 04:55 PM
It's the Bonus Damage. At Level 1, you're gaining +2 DB with each weapon against your Favoured Enemy with Two Weapon Fighting. It's not enough, though.

Jannex
2007-04-12, 05:13 PM
It's the Bonus Damage. At Level 1, you're gaining +2 DB with each weapon against your Favoured Enemy with Two Weapon Fighting. It's not enough, though.

Though, with the character I'm currently running (level 10), +6 damage on each attack, with four attacks a round is kinda nice. And in that campaign, Favored Enemy is pretty reliably useful, since the plotline involves us blundering into the middle of the Blood War. Why yes, I would like to deal up to 24 more damage a round to the Hezrou (30 if the bard's got Haste up), thank you very much. :smallamused:

motivatedjanza
2007-04-12, 05:16 PM
Hmmm...
I think I just got talked into making a ranged ranger for my Anti-Archer plan coming up. Gracios!

Oh, but most of the archery feats can apply to javelins and such as well right?

Matthew
2007-04-12, 05:22 PM
Though, with the character I'm currently running (level 10), +6 damage on each attack, with four attacks a round is kinda nice. And in that campaign, Favored Enemy is pretty reliably useful, since the plotline involves us blundering into the middle of the Blood War. Why yes, I would like to deal up to 24 more damage a round to the Hezrou (30 if the bard's got Haste up), thank you very much. :smallamused:
Yep, it's good, but managing to deliver a Full Attack and the huge Feat investment involved are still significant problems, plus over the next ten levels it's only going to increase by +4 DB (or a total of +70 DB if you are lucky enough to hit on four Primary Iterative and three Off Hand Attacks)

Orzel
2007-04-12, 05:29 PM
Typically Ranged ranger is usually better than TWF Ranger. TWF ranger is usually the best TWFer though. Dual Throwing axes with Quickdraw is always cool.

Almost always get Nemesis. It is awesome feat.
Same with the DMG/CW version Improved Favored Enemy feat. +3 damage to FE is nice.
Archer rangers should grab Favored Attack too.

Annarrkkii
2007-04-12, 05:54 PM
Rangers are better at, well, ranging. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that they need to take the ranged fighting style, though they tend to, but a d8 HD, light armor, and a lack of solidly melee-oriented abilities make for an unimpressive melee build. Now, using TWF, it is fully possible to build a valid ranged build. It is also inversely possible to create a decent versatile melee tanker using the ranged build.

Here are a few examples of how unconventional builds can work, proving that both types, if bent enough, can be weirdly useful. And I deserve praise for making myself not use ANY ToB material.

Cloud of Knives at Will
Finished Product: Halfling Ranger 8/Scout 4/Paragon 3/Master Thrower 5

Rgr 1—Point Blank Shot, Track, Favored Enemy
Rgr 2—Two-Weapon Fighting
Rgr 2/Pgn 1—Precise Shot, Athletic Prowess, Save Bonuses
Rgr 2/Pgn 2—Thrown Weapon Mastery, +1 Dex
Rgr 2/Pgn 3—Dex Boost +2
Rgr 2/Pgn 3/Sct 1—Weapon Focus: Dagger, Skirmish +1d6, trapfinding
Rgr 2/Pgn 3/Sct 1/MTh 1—Doubletoss, Quick Draw
Rgr 2/Pgn 3/Sct 1/MTh 2—Evasion, +1 Dex
Rgr 2/Pgn 3/Sct 1/MTh 3—Palm Toss, Rapid Shot
Rgr 2/Pgn 3/Sct 1/MTh 4—Snatch Arrows
Rgr 2/Pgn 3/Sct 1/MTh 5—Two with One, Critical Throw
Rgr 2/Pgn 3/Sct 2/MTh 5—Battle Fortitude +1, uncanny dodge
Rgr 2/Pgn 3/Sct 3/MTh 5—Skirmish +1d6/+1, +10 ft. speed, trackless step
Rgr 3/Pgn 3/Sct 3/MTh 5—Endurance
Rgr 3/Pgn 3/Sct 4/MTh 5—Improved Initiative, Swift Hunter, Skirmish +2d6/+2 AC, Favored Enemy
Rgr 4/Pgn 3/Sct 4/MTh 5—Distracting Shot
Rgr 5/Pgn 3/Sct 4/MTh 5—Skirmish +3d6/+2 AC
Rgr 6/Pgn 3/Sct 4/MTh 5—Favored Enemy, Improved TWF, Two-Weapon Rend
Rgr 7/Pgn 3/Sct 4/MTh 5—Skirmish +3d6/+3 AC, Woodland Stride
Rgr 8/Pgn 3/Sct 4/MTh 5—Swift Tracker

Four knives, each doing skirmish damage, as a standard action is hard to turn down. Equip him with a horde of posioned knives and have him square off in combat—between Palm Toss, Quick Draw, Rapid Shot, and Doubletoss he'll be cranking out enough knives to guarantee several failed saves per round. He can double as a skill monkey.


Other unconventional favorites of mine include the Bolt Blizzard—a gnome ranger/fighter with Rapid Reload, Crossbow Sniper, a solid Dex score, Point Blank Shot, a bit of Exotic Weapon Master. Or the good old Falchion-slinging Half-orc with Brutal Throw, Power Throw, and Improved Critical.

Turcano
2007-04-12, 06:06 PM
Well, this appears to be one-sided. I guess they're called rangers for a reason.


TWF ranger is usually the best TWFer though.

Rogues make better two-weapon fighters than rangers, because they can put sneak attack on every attack in a full attack, which TWF can increase considerably.

Orzel
2007-04-12, 06:24 PM
Rogues make better two-weapon fighters than rangers, because they can put sneak attack on every attack in a full attack, which TWF can increase considerably.

But they miss more often and have 1 less attack. Rangers typically have the best combination of accuracy, survival, and bonus damage.

Devils_Advocate
2007-04-12, 07:15 PM
To me, it's not even so much that the Ranger class is better suited to archery than melee combat, it's that it's one of the few classes that can even do archery as well as it can do melee. Barbarians and paladins? Clearly geared for front-line combat. Fighters and monks? Grappling, battlefield control, and melee attacks are probably their best options. Clerics and druids? They'll likely want to alternate between melee and spellcasting. Ranged weapon attacks, not so much. Bards can be passable archers, I guess, if they're not busy piling buffs on their allies... which they probably are.

So, at least within core material, the Ranger's competition in the archery field is probably pretty much limited to the occasional rogue who can reliably get improved invisibility. (Pixies are good for this.) Meanwhile, your party probably already has people who can hold the front line. So why not shoot at enemies from behind the meatshields and be one of the characters who isn't useless against enemies that can stay out of close range? Even an archer rogue will suck against enemies over 30 feet away. Or immune to sneak attacks.


Does anybody have some good ranged ranger tactics?
The Manyshot feat lets you make multiple attacks and a move action in the same round. Other than that, it is inferior to a full attack, as Bears points out. So, obviously, only use it in a round when you need to move more than 5 feet.

An Efficient Quiver is an obvious choice of magic item. You can carry around a variety of special arrows that are quite useful against rather narrow groups of enemies ("Eat obscure alchemical metal, fiend-skank!"), leaving more generally useful enchanments for your bow.