Cleric optimization help

[Frostthehero]

Could I see an optimized 3.5 cleric that uses only core and PHBII?

[Zaq]

Not without putting in some more info. Optimized for what? Optimized at what level? Optimized with what party?

As a wise man once said, you must have a ride before it can be pimped. There's no one-size-fits-all "optimization" that can just be generically applied (especially not to as versatile a class as the Cleric) without you giving us some idea of what you want to do and how you want to do it.

[Frostthehero]

Not without putting in some more info. Optimized for what? Optimized at what level? Optimized with what party?

As a wise man once said, you must have a ride before it can be pimped. There's no one-size-fits-all "optimization" that can just be generically applied (especially not to as versatile a class as the Cleric) without you giving us some idea of what you want to do and how you want to do it.

great point. Something level 12-13, evenly split between buffing, battle, and healing. The party is a paladin, a dragon shaman, an unoptimized sorcerer, a heavily optimized wizard, and an unoptimized psion.

[GilesTheCleric]

Cleric 13. And no, I'm not pulling your chain. Adding a few levels of Contemplative (11, or 11-13) wouldn't hurt, especially if you worship an ideal. You have a few options on how to play, and you can combine them if you know your campaign well enough to optimize to lower numbers or just feel like something different the next day.

1: Diviner. Grab Knowledge domain and Luck domain (Contemplative: Magic or Destruction domain (disintegrate: not a death effect!)). Purchase CL increases and +div CL/DC items from the DMG. Standard scry-n-die tactics. You have some decent spells such as swift etherealness, harm (not a death effect, higher DC!, vs will), destruction (death effect, higher DC, vs fort), SM VII, planar ally, slay living (death effect and lower DC, vs fort), and greater command (mind-affecting, not a death effect, low DC, vs will). Your options for counter-scrying are limited, but you still have access to forbiddance, antilife shell, and banishment, which should be very effective if you know your foes and as such know what they fear or oppose. Sub-tactic: grab Earth domain, and abuse dimensional anchor+earthquake in caverns. Add additional hold monster or the like to taste.

2: Wizard. Grab Magic domain and Luck domain (Contemplative: Knowledge). Pick up item creation feats, and cherry pick your favourite wiz spells. Nondetection and Arcane Sight are good, as are all of the popular wiz spells (glitterdust, grease, et al). If one wizard is good, two are better. Plus you have a pre-made optimized spellbook right there waiting for you!

3: Minionmancy, diplomancy. Leadership, summon monster, control undead, pick your flavour of the week. Grab any two of Trickery, Travel, Magic (AMF on minions!), Luck, or Animal (Animal Shapes). Levels in Thaumaturgist will net you a Contingent conjuration and a casting cohort (you can start taking it at level 8).

4: Melee. Grab Luck domain and Travel domain (Contemplative: Protection, Magic, or Strength). Grab Power attack and Item Creation feats (all-day/on-command buffs), or Extend the big three (righteous wrath of the faithful, divine power, and righteous might) and flavour with 1st-4th level buffs from PHB2. If the optimization ceiling you're aiming at is low for your game, then this option will be the best at letting your party shine at the same time you do. Sub-tactic: mounted charger, since you don't have access to pounce (w/o PAO at 15) and extra PA multipliers in core; alternatively, minion-mance something with pounce to be your mount.

Your best feats for most builds are: Heighten Spell, Extend Spell, Item Creation feats, Greater/Spell Focus (div, necro for SoD), Power Attack, Still Spell, Silent Spell, and Elven Spell Lore. In core, you can essentially dump everything but wis, meaning you can chose whether to boost con, str, or int/cha (for trickery domain/knowledge+scrying). Anything short of commanding undead isn't worth it if you're thinking about turning. Optimizing in core really just means picking the right spells, and being creative. Your biggest real limit is 1) your CL/DCs, so increasing that by any means will have the most impact on your performance, and 2) lack of contingencies, which leaves you vulnerable to effective anti-caster measures (another caster, AMF+brute, etc); countering that is tricky, but high saves are a good start (dip into pal 2 if you have a low op ceiling), divination will help, and simply having a high move speed+good AC+chumps/other party members/expendable minions might be enough.

By 13, you should be able to prepare at least one copy of spells for every occasion (x2 g/plane shift, x1 SoD, x1 divination, x1 melee routine (grease/hold monster+buffs), xN g/dispel magic, x1 protection buff routine (FoM, True Seeing, divined resist energy/SR/DR, etc)), then increase the numbers of whatever type of spell you like depending on your build choice or your mood. Playing with intelligence by divining what foes you'll face, and by targeting your saves against things creatures will fail most are your greatest strengths. No-save-just-die is a bit limited in core, with the easiest (but fallible) method of Earthquake listed above, but there's plenty of no-/save-or-suck especially with access to the first 3 spell levels of the wiz list. Insect plague/ summon monster can be another good NSjD, and Geas/Quest can be, too, if the target doesn't know to just go get it dispelled. If your optimization ceiling is high, then relying on the foe's op should benefit you most. Expect foes to scry-n-die you, so prepare for that by eg. spending most of your time on the elemental plane of earth (or any other inhospitable place) and using counter-divination to fool their sensor. Pretend (or prepare) to be losing the battle and flee to a place you've readied ahead of time with things like glyph spells.

If you really want to try using healing at level 13, try to limit it to magic items, Heal, and minion-cast Shield Other+cure spells/heal.

[Doctor Awkward]

...Adding a few levels of Contemplative (11, or 11-13) wouldn't hurt...
He has core + PHB2 only. Contemplative is Complete Divine.



If being the best cleric (and only a cleric) is your goal, Cleric 13 is your only option. There are no worthwhile prestige classes that advance cleric casting in Core. The only worthwhile dips to consider are Fighter 2 for combat feats and Martial Weapon proficiency (you are probably better off taking the War Domain),

The best race available to you in core (without LA buyoff) is Aasimar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/planetouched.htm#aasimar). If that's not allowed for some reason, be human. With LA buyoff, it's Githzerai.

The best core domains for spells known are Travel,Trickery, and, at higher levels, Luck, with honorable mention to Magic.
The best core domains for domain powers are Travel, Luck, Magic, and Trickery. Sun is also useful in an undead heavy campaign. As you can see a lot of this works out pretty nicely.

PHB2 gets you access to an alternate class feature which lets you trade spontaneous healing for Spontaneous Domain casting. You should take this. The two best candidates for this are Luck (for Miracle, among other things), and Trickery.

There aren't many PHB2 feats worth taking.

For metamagics the only worthwhile options are Quicken, Extend, Empower, and occasionally Heighten. Power Attack is useful for going into melee (you don't have access to Zen Archery, so ranged cleric isn't a worthwhile option). Craft Wondrous Item can be helpful. Naturally, there is always Improved Initiative.

Aside from PHB staples (Divine Power, Magic Vestment, Flame Strike, etc.), the spells of PHB2 that are of interest to you include Divine Retaliation (3rd), Mystic Aegis (4th), and Swift Etherealness (5th). The rest are pretty subpar.

[GilesTheCleric]

He has core + PHB2 only. Contemplative is Complete Divine.

It is? Oh my, you're right. It's just such a no-frills PrC that I always think of it as being DMG material.

Quicken is less powerful in core since there's no reducers, but it's still one of the best feats; thank you for posting it.

Thaumaturgist advances any casting; it reduces your fort save progression and BAB (that doesn't matter because Divine Power). There's a feat tax to get in, but it's not as horrendous as some. Loremaster grants additional feats and doesn't lose casting, but has steep prereqs for lvl 13.

[Troacctid]

Thaumaturgist and Loremaster are both reasonable prestige classes that you could take in Core. Thaumaturgist is pretty easy to qualify for--just one feat and you're in--and it makes you pretty damn good at summoning, allowing you to prepare a contingent summoning spell to cast as a free action, as well as giving you a permanent summoned sidekick. Loremaster has a heavier feat requirement, but it does pay you back for one of them with a bonus feat, and you were probably going to take item creation and metamagic feats anyway, so it's not actually that bad, and its class features are fairly solid.

Both of them offer full casting advancement, so the opportunity cost to take them is very low. The only things you lose out on are hit dice, BAB, and turning, and at that level, neither of those things really matter.

[johnbragg]

great point. Something level 12-13, evenly split between buffing, battle, and healing.

I'm not much of an optimizer, but generally optimization and versatility work against each other. To be extra-good at something, you spend resources (feats, spells prepared) on it, and then those resources are not available for other things.

That's often not true in 3X, because of options that let you have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too, so I defer to the CharOp community.

The next question is how available items are. If your DM allows a pretty unlimited magic-mart, then a number of things are better taken care of with money (wands-and-scrolls, some permanent items) than with feats-and-spells, notably healing.


The party is a paladin, a dragon shaman, an unoptimized sorcerer, a heavily optimized wizard, and an unoptimized psion.

That, could present issues. You're asking for advice, which I think puts a ceiling on your effective optimization (no offense, but half of high-op is your own system mastery).

A polymorphing, suggestion-ing, teleporting, planar binding, contingency-slinging wizard is going to be very hard for the party to keep up with.

Given your group, I would skew your optimization-balance to buffing--everyone but the god-Wizard is going to need it.

[Doctor Awkward]

Thaumaturgist and Loremaster are both reasonable prestige classes that you could take in Core...

Without access to Rapid Spell or any of the other feats and PrC's (like Malconvoker) that improve summoning, Thaumaturgist doesn't really get you much. It's also much more difficult to take advantage of what you do get. You're also losing out on class skills you might get from your Domains (like Bluff or UMD).

Loremaster is... all right... I guess. But it's such an even trade in so many cases. Yeah you get free feat, but you also sink a feat into Skill Focus knowledge, so in that instance you technically aren't "gaining" anything. The bonus spells are only first and second level, which again aren't getting much. An extra Hold Person each day? Pro-Evil? Shield of Faith? There's just not a whole lot of "wow" at level 13. And it's not like you can just pick any secret you want. There are Level + Int mod requirements. To even get More Newfound Arcana, you have to have a minimum Int of 12, and you can't take it until level 9, in which case you're stuck with Secret Health at level 1. This makes you more MAD. Yeah you can qualify, but it doesn't offer much to core+PHB2 clerics.

And like you said you are losing out on your Turning ability, which may or may not be a big deal if the campaign has lots of undead. Both PrC's also kill your melee capacity, what with half the normal hit dice and less BAB.
I can promise you this is a big deal in games without Persistant Spell where you aren't guaranteed to have your buffs available to you for every battle, and definitely won't be walking around with them on all the time.
They both drop your Fortitude save too, which are the ones that can result in instant death if failed.


Quicken is less powerful in core since there's no reducers

True, but quickening lower level buffs is almost universally useful, especially in games where dispelling is a thing the enemies might do.
Speaking of which, Forge Ring might also be useful...

Also, healing should usually be taken care of out of combat with Wands of Cure Light Wounds, which only cost you 750 gp for 50 charges.
If you can't buy them, this is another item creation feat that might be worth taking. Cleric has a number of low level spells that would be very handy in wands.

[Troacctid]

Without access to Rapid Spell or any of the other feats and PrC's (like Malconvoker) that improve summoning, Thaumaturgist doesn't really get you much. It's also much more difficult to take advantage of what you do get. You're also losing out on class skills you might get from your Domains (like Bluff or UMD).

Why would you need Rapid Spell? Thaumaturgist lets you set a summoning spell as a contingency. That means it goes off with no action required.

[Frostthehero]

For clarification, this is for a stupid challenge involving book limitations. Unsurprisingly, it looks like the wizard is going to win.

[GilesTheCleric]

For clarification, this is for a stupid challenge involving book limitations. Unsurprisingly, it looks like the wizard is going to win.

D&D is a cooperative game. How will the wizard win, and at what?

[atemu1234]

It's all in the Player's Handbook for the most part. Just as the Wizard can be God-level prepared, so too can the Cleric. Though to be fair, GOD Cleric seems a little blasphemous for a supposed worshipper.

[Doctor Awkward]

D&D is a cooperative game. How will the wizard win, and at what?

This. What exactly is are you trying to prove?

Is this supposed to be some kind of ****-measuring contest for who has the most brokenness?

Because I'll start that by pointing out that Miracle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm) is explicitly better than Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm) at reproducing spells because it can do so without the XP cost. And it is capable of more profound effects by spending the XP without the chance of being twisted so long as it is in line with your deity's nature and alignment.

[Grooke]

I read a cleric vs wizard thread once were someone said "casting cancels out and cleric wins with better HD & BaB". But really, the subject is an endless source of contreversy.