[Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread III)

[ErrantX]

We went through 50 pages in like, a month. WOW guys!!


Man, is it that time already? It seems like Path of War just happened! For those of you not familiar with the project, the original Path of War introduced a new paradigm of martial combat to Pathfinder by remaking, revamping, and expanding on the maneuver system introduced late in 3.5's run. I'm really happy to say that it's gained a lot of interest and support, and I couldn't be prouder to be involved with the project.

And now it's time to announce (well, technically re-announce but hey, new thread) Path of War Expanded, the first supplementary content for the Path of War line! What's up with Expanded? Just about everything! Path of War built up a super solid foundation with three base classes, new feats, martial disciplines and the new Traditions system, among other things, but it was necessarily lacking in some other ideas. Path of War Expanded will flesh out those gaps with worldbuilding advice, new items and weapons, new feats (including style feats!), new disciplines and additional Traditions. Included as well are three new base classes that combine supernatural prowess with swordsmanship: the Harbinger, Mystic, and Zealot.

What's a new thread without some links and teasers? Not a new thread at all, that's what. So here's some of ours:

- The Harbinger (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HCtvRArIRPjcClMf5KVJrDBrkV_gBoaVFuvwA4CmCew/edit?usp=sharing), a melee control class that uses superior mobility and crippling status effects to command the battlefield. These warriors understand grief and anger on a personal level and translate that understanding into deadly curses and reality-warping swordplay. Harbinger also has two archetypes (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EsgZxSmnr9mwAeZRxHdxZSAS95QeUI0RWQ3F7nm4j38/edit?usp=sharing) available in beta. The Crimson Countess emphasizes the Claim mechanic to take her rage out on her victims, while the Ravenlord creates a shadowy servant that aids him in battle. A new archetype, the Bleak Emissary (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VwrqOihp5Nb_OVtMKpA2so2vL3bITx5hLZUSGQm2pUk/edit?usp=sharing), is available for beta testing. Harbinger introduces two new disciplines: Cursed Razor and Shattered Mirror

- The Zealot (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1AbNq6NDkQ84JoacxMb-CxbQKwuXVWTEBpX2cIcNB7iA/edit), a psionic swordsman who leads his party into battle with the power of his passions and their own collective bond. These psionic initiators augment their maneuvers with power points and aid their party members with telepathy. Zealot introduces the Eternal Guardian and Sleeping Goddess disciplines. Zealot archetypes may be found here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Dt0LxHWmuPr0e9z5IlnYyf1bXweGONCnwTQDUCThFPU/edit?usp=sharing).

- The Mystic (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-NXNSjsconKLQNhqkt-lS0fZjOXGxns7Nz_Kqg63z3Q/edit?usp=sharing), a melee support class that uses unstable arcane energies to unleash beneficial magic on his allies and scourge his enemies with the power of the elements. Mystics are founts of energy that they vent through martial discipline and intuition rather than through spells. Mystic will introduce the Elemental Flux and Riven Hourglass disciplines. Mystic archetypes can be found here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/11F28Ib8Yj74wtAEBzmZrtWqqmc95I6Cbj7U9S2qOfoE/edit?usp=sharing).

But wait, there's more!

- Dreamscarred Press is happy to announce Class Templates, archetypes that can be applied to more than one class. Class Templates represent ideas too broad for a single-class archetype, letting you create very different versions of the same somewhat broad idea. The three introduced in Path of War Expanded are the Bushi, Privateer, and Hussar (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hHsiSKoL2nR4oWgzPKQwXfqYENuNkDmBiX323SlTPfc/edit?usp=sharing), for all of your samurai, pirate, and mounted warrior needs. At the end of the document you'll find the Mithral Current discipline as well.

Discipline List! (in no particular order)

- The Eternal Guardian (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CiBEOAlfno9Ny6IOLQEKDjqyNdItkCdX2hSjJy1NV2E/edit?usp=sharing) discipline

- The Sleeping Goddess (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_fnZ9YJTKdoF1IrU_5op5U8rm7pomONnt4y0p9ZeqLU/edit?usp=sharing) discipline

- The Cursed Razor (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vupG0mfOE8yU3NwaddxfnRhZ4PiWsLz-ANVkQ8KJftA/edit?usp=sharing) discipline

- The Shattered Mirror (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1A5i_oxGQJUIhIolHf8IMQF9Q6BsuMtKOr6szdvJv5FY/edit?usp=sharing) discipline

- The Mithral Current (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dKCPPIpRoR9CZv0A35gLDnXl5itgRufjWTq83BIsMfs/edit?usp=sharing) discipline

- The Riven Hourglass (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rmHuI_JcLiDJ2_g0jyrP0lQ1a8wyXh-yL4-3njLpnZk/edit) discipline, available for open beta.

- The Elemental Flux discipline (https://docs.google.com/document/d/14BiQj1sEeeEH0Nbyiyf-o0Kg4N5uDM5XwwqeWOJ21dI/edit?usp=sharing) is available for open beta.

- Piercing Thunder (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HcQQIp8ZPqmgMQjUWFvoI2qMFE0xdYFKcB0b30xmzFc/edit?usp=sharing) is available for open beta.

- Tempest Gale (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mmEGGV-7j6ZGZqPXblPeY8cPzYtTweDtggVA0kqyAmM/edit?usp=sharing), a new ranged discipline, is now in beta!

Other Stuff!


Path of War: Expanded Archetypes Document (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tbBIinA90VQW8eriM0TZTZCbHsSU6cdv7_44J8w564s/edit?usp=sharing)

All the Feats for Path of War: Expanded! (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EPARqt5jpie03MIXStgFrNK_si6g218bjT4TFbcizPY/edit?usp=sharing)

Warpaths (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1FMI_tbEJHXtejBNgdDtsA09CJHskHnZQZ2N33L2HZ6A/edit?usp=sharing)

Martial Tradition (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vX5QKzsOgPVoXqSuKdu_INbPz5x7OAL_qbH2aia14xk/edit)

- On the agenda: Favored class and racial abilities, traits, more feats, prestige classes, monster stuff, and more!

----



It's been an amazing ride so far, and the support from the community for this project has been overwhelming and very touching. We couldn't have gotten this far without you guys, and I hope the Path of War line can continue to be an addition to your tables. With that said, I declare this thread to be officially open!

[Vhaidara]

Chris, might I suggest you take this time to just make the links for the archetypes say "[Class] Archetypes"

[Tempestfury]

Can't you put the Zealot Archetypes with the Zealot in the OP? And have Mithral Current, and the Zealot/Harbringer disciplines in their own different documents for easy access? Or is that going to be something for Monday? (With another million and one things)

[Ilorin Lorati]

The new theme for the thread. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxS9N-npE2Q)

[PsyBomb]

Keeping it going. I look forward to my next Pharaoh playtest opportunity.

[NineThePuma]

Can't you put the Zealot Archetypes with the Zealot in the OP? And have Mithral Current, and the Zealot/Harbringer disciplines in their own different documents for easy access? Or is that going to be something for Monday? (With another million and one things)

PLEASE do this.

[RedOndjage]

What's the ETA until the PoW fighter archetype? I'm really curious to see what you guys do with the class.

[stack]

Any word on the interaction between the destruction Zealot's area attack and strikes that have area's of their own?

[Ilorin Lorati]

The way it's worded leads me to believe that the area augments in Storm of Steel replace any other area.

[Taveena]

Again, I feel like "Combat Reflexes, but Charisma" is a pretty solid conviction.

[stack]

Again, I feel like "Combat Reflexes, but Charisma" is a pretty solid conviction.

I agree, the MADness really impacted my design choices when building a zealot.

[TerminusEst]

Hey; I mentioned it in the last thread, but I think it got buried w/ no response, etc.

But for the Mystic Archetype, Mandala Adept; is it intended that they get the Nimbus class at level 1 but cannot use it until level 2?

Just seemed weird to get an ability that you cannot use.

[Ironsides]

Saturday I played in AGrinning Cat's playtest with my Fiendbound Marauder (I liked the old name better by the way, Demon-Hand Warlock is a much more AWESOME name for the archetype). I am playing with a Strength focused TWF build with his two spectral Fists/Whips using the Prodigious Two Weapon Fighting feat. I thought this would be an awesome build but it has several pitfalls that has soured me to the build. :smallfrown:

Your off-hand weapon only gets half strength bonus from your modifier...:smallfurious: I don't know why Paizo wants to gimp a build that already focuses on dex but unless you pay the feat tax of Double Slice (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/double-slice-combat---final) you don't get the full bonus. Also since you are gimping dexterity your Reflex Saves are awful.

So you would be better off with doing with a dex build of Weapon Finesse, TWF, and Deadly Agility. You can make up for the lack of strength score with Muleback Cords (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/m-p/muleback-cords) and going with medium armor. Also this helps with your lackluster Reflex Saves. YMMV but in a trap filled dungeon having a poor Reflex Save and a poor Acrobatics score because of the ACP penalty is a liability.

You can find my build here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?404488-Making-a-Fiendbound-Marauder-for-a-Playtest) Can you guys think of a way to spice things up because I am tempted to retire the character and going with something else. Last 2 sessions have ended with my character lying unconscious on the floor waiting to be either killed or fed a potion (which may be the MAIN reason for my dissatisfaction but still). The first session I was laid up because I couldn't jump across a 10 foot wide pit trap and the second time I should have retreated to drink a potion or two.

Edit: Also you can enchant your Finessable weapons with the Agile (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/agile)enchantment. I think that may be worth a feat.

Edit 2: The Fiendbound Marauder's Fiend's Grip is STILL not considered a Discipline weapon for Eternal Guardian while Cursed Razor and Black Seraph are. Also I like the archetype itself just not where I went with it. I think that Prodigious TWF is has some inherent pitfalls that people might not consider when making a TWF STR build instead of a TWF Dex build.

[The Glyphstone]

So how's that Harbinger artwork coming?:smallcool:

[squiggit]

Also since you are gimping dexterity your Reflex Saves are awful.
You still get int to reflex at 4 with Fiendbound. Plus it's not really an archetype issue, regular Warders tend to struggle with that too since they're encouraged to have crap-all dexterity.

I think it's a shame Fiendbound loses tortoise instead of Fury now.

[ErrantX]

I plan on taking some time to address the last several pages of the previous thread and this one and reorganize the materials tomorrow.

-X

[Dromuthra]

I also took part in the playtest on Saturday, still playing my Ravenlord Harbinger. Notable changes to the harbinger are that I used a martial tradition to grab Golden Lion and a trait to grab Silver Crane, foregoing Shattered Mirror and Cursed Razor. We began this level of the dungeon at level three, which really helped as the Ravenlord archetype really comes online at that point. Being able to use the bird to initiate maneuvers was a godsend compared to the previous two levels, and it being able to initiate Enduring Crane Strike as needed was vital to my survival several times. It was also ruled that my bird, given its 18 intelligence, was able to root through my pouches and force feed me potions while I was unconscious (not sure how another DM would have ruled it), which happened twice that session and is a large part of the reason it wasn't a TPK at the end.

Overall I'm still quite satisfied with the character, though I think that it could stand to lose the good Fort save, considering that at level four they get Int to both it and Reflex saves. It would have been problematic for me at earlier levels to not have the good progression, but I think that the class is powerful enough that it doesn't really need it. I found generally that I almost never wanted my raven initiating my sole counter, Warning Lion's Roar, as it didn't share my skill bonuses. I believe I recall Snowbluff suggesting that the raven be made more familiar-esque; in that regard I'd recommend having it use its master's skills in place of its own. Looking through the other disciplines, many strikes and counters require skill checks, and very few of those are class skills for the raven, and thus are likely to be somewhat lower than necessary. With regards to the bird as a tank - through these last few levels it's felt a bit odd that the bird always had more health than I did. This only stopped being true for level three, but then at level four (when it becomes a magical beast and gains a d10 hit die) it once again surpasses me in health, which feels a bit odd. I don't think that it's necessarily a problem, but I just wanted to comment on it.

And just a couple of rules questions regarding PoW:
1. Can Enduring Crane Strike heal allies outside of line of sight but still within the 30 ft. range?
2. How does Dark Authority interact with the raven? I assume it isn't considered a part of me, and thus doesn't get the benefits, but I'd like clarification on that point.

Build. (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=113018)

[Tempestfury]

I really hope I can be in the play-test this Saturday... testing both the Bushi and the Vigilante, going to be interesting now that I have Sneak-Attack and not Deadly Strikes... I was going to be grabbing the 'Deadly Ambush' Stalker art at level 3, but now I'll just have higher sneak-attack damage... so I suspect I'll actually be doing a lot of damage. Especially as I'll be grabbing both Deadly Agility and the crit enchanting art.

[Vhaidara]

I was in the playtest, though my feedback won't be too useful. I made a Deadly Ambusher Ranger, and showed up late because I had a family dinner. So my character was in a jail cell, without his armor on. I was a Dex based (Fury for Thunder and picked up PTS) using a Halberd and a Spear. It was okay, but I didn't feel any different from a Warlord or a Dervish Defender, but worse. The problem is that the focus of the archetype is on the Animal Companion, and 4 is too late for a class defining ability to come online. It just makes those early levels a very boring slog. Especially when we had a Ravenlord next to me, essentially doing my job (super-pet class) better than me, because he had his pet and I didn't. And he had second level maneuvers.

Oh, and Wights are BS. Negative levels with no saves. On a CR 3. Thanks Cat. Thanks.

I won't be there next week (another family dinner), but the week after that, if Cat is still running these, I am bringing to the fore Turtle Power, a Solhofaat Paladin, to see how founded Cat's concerns about the archetype are.

[Tempestfury]

The problem is that the focus of the archetype is on the Animal Companion, and 4 is too late for a class defining ability to come online. It just makes those early levels a very boring slog.

Now you know the pain of playing an Investigator.


I won't be there next week (another family dinner)

Oh good, space for me! Hope you enjoy the dinner.

[Elricaltovilla]

OK, I'm finishing up the mystic guide, so go ahead and let me know what all needs edited. Please try not to spam the same things over and over, it just makes it harder for me to figure out what needs fixed. Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

[Vhaidara]

Now you know the pain of playing an Investigator.


Not a comparison. Yes, investigator's main damage source comes online at 4, but they aren't a combat focused class, they're a skill-focused class, and they get a lot of support for that from the start (Inspiration, Alchemy, excellent skill list + lots of points + Int focus). The Ambush Hunter, meanwhile, trades out Favored Enemy (one of the ranger's early damage sources) for Sneak Attack that only works when flanking with an animal companion they don't get until 4th level (and vs flat footed, but the full round recovery is rarely worth it to trigger that)

[CyanEyed]

As the Crimson Countess in Cat's playtest game, lol @ potions.
However, keeping track of all the nonstatic bonuses and penalties on me and my enemies might have given me cancer.

[Vhaidara]

Also, request: Can Monk of the Silver Hand remove the Lawful alignment restriction? Please? The alignment restriction is stupid anyways, since Monk is a much more generic class. I can see leaving it on the paladin, since paladin isn't generic (actually containing abilities related to alignment)

[TheIronGolem]

Also, request: Can Monk of the Silver Hand remove the Lawful alignment restriction? Please? The alignment restriction is stupid anyways, since Monk is a much more generic class. I can see leaving it on the paladin, since paladin isn't generic (actually containing abilities related to alignment)

I kinda wish it had been a Brawler archetype, personally. Still, I must admit that the Monk is in more need of good archetypes.

Related news for anyone using Hero Lab: I've started inputting playtest data into the 3PP Community Pack (http://forums.wolflair.com/showpost.php?p=202420&postcount=5). It now supports the Harbinger, the Cursed Razor and Shattered Mirror disciplines, and most (not all) of the PoWEx feats. I'm hoping to get the Zealot into the next release.

[Lord_Gareth]

I kinda wish it had been a Brawler archetype, personally. Still, I must admit that the Monk is in more need of good archetypes.

Related news for anyone using Hero Lab: I've started inputting playtest data into the 3PP Community Pack (http://forums.wolflair.com/showpost.php?p=202420&postcount=5). It now supports the Harbinger, the Cursed Razor and Shattered Mirror disciplines, and most (not all) of the PoWEx feats. I'm hoping to get the Zealot into the next release.

Dude, that's AWESOME!

However you might want to hold off 'cause a bunch of last-minute changes are being folded into Harbinger's upcoming release >.> Maneuver edits, class feature edits, etc.

[radionausea]

Hey IronGolem, I need to set up a github account to add some files for the playtest too. I've made archetypes for Bushi and Husaar and input (text and requirements only) the Mithral Current, Riven Hour Glass and Piercing Thunder disciplines.

How does one get in on these Saturday play tests? I'd love to play something but I'm on GMT so might be difficult if its an evening game for Americans

[TheIronGolem]

Dude, that's AWESOME!

However you might want to hold off 'cause a bunch of last-minute changes are being folded into Harbinger's upcoming release >.> Maneuver edits, class feature edits, etc.

Yeah, I figured that would be the price of starting early. That's also why I've only done the Harbinger so far; I figure the others are still less "mature" and likely to see more changes that I'd have to redo.

[TheIronGolem]

Hey IronGolem, I need to set up a github account to add some files for the playtest too. I've made archetypes for Bushi and Husaar and input (text and requirements only) the Mithral Current, Riven Hour Glass and Piercing Thunder disciplines.


Nice! The project is here (https://github.com/shadowchemosh/HL-Pack-3PP), if you didn't already know that; you'll need to ask ShadowChemosh for access. I'd be happy to coordinate further work with you through the project page.

[Elricaltovilla]

OK, so I'm looking over the archetypes document right now. I'm fielding suggestions for a capstone for the Knight Disciple, a replacement 15th level ability for the Monk of the Silver Fist, and any editing or wording issues that are in the current document.

[ErrantX]

Iron Pikeman's Attitude: I'd change the long text to "Subtract 1 from your armor check penalty. It all gets pooled together before applied anyway and it reads a bit cleaner.
Armor Piercing Thrust: Maybe add a line allowing Power Attack?
Brace For Impact: This just got better with the switch from Ride to Acrobatics.
Iron Lancer's Edge: No save stagger makes me uncomfortable, but staggered is maybe an acceptable condition.
Stance of Piercing Thunder: Cool, name is a bit too similar to Stance of Piercing Rays, maybe?
Goring and Impaling Comet are inconsistent in how much extra reach they give. Does the extra Reach stack with Lunge and Stance of Piercing Thunder?
Repositioning Leap: I am entertained by the fact that you can leap, avoiding the attack, and remain within reach. I like the acrobatic ****ery though.
Leaping Strike: short versions till says 25, long version says 6d6 now.
Twisting Lance: ....Dang. Combine this with Greater Trip, and manifest Dispatch (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/d/dispatch). Trip, three Attack Ops, one of which could have a trippled threat range.
Slayer's Stance: Double Lance Drifting? Double Lance Drifting. On a Hussar with some form of pounce, getting two double-power charge attacks is gonna be naaaasty
Twisting parry: Deliciously troll!
Glorious Lancer's Charge and Steel Lancer's Edge: Two maneuvers at the same level, both charges, both doing the same bonus damage? Maybe a bit redundant, but I like the acrobatic ****ery one.
Leaping Thunder Crash: Leaping strike got converted to extra damage dice. Somewhat surprised this wasn't as well.
Rush Into the Fray: The combat maneuver clause is odd, I didn't think you could substitute in combat maneuvers during strikes? Also, how does this stack with charge multipliers? Does Every attack get the multiplication, or just one?
Deadly Thunder Lancer's Stance: Very cool, but the name is a bit of a mouthful. How about "Leaping Lightning Stance"?


Favored Gambit
Pre-req: Warlord 6
Choose a single gambit you know. When you execute this gambit, you gain double the normal bonuses from attempting a gambit, and this gambit counts a a boost for the Warlord's Dual Boost class feature. If you succeed on this gambit, you gain the bonus from the gambit a second time (Numerical bonuses are applied twice and stack, non-numeric bonuses, such as bonus movement are granted twice.)

Daring Dynamo:
Pre-Req: 3 Gambits known.
Benefit: When you perform a gambit If you performed a gambit in your last round, you may attempt a second gambit this round as a free action, so long as you did not attempt this gambit in your previous round. Each consecutive round you successfully perform a gambit, you may perform an additional gambit as a free action. (For example, on the third round you may perform three gambits, on the fourth, you may perform fourth).

Daring Maneuver:
Pre-req: Cha 13, Gambit known.
Benefit: Select a single gambit you know which provides a bonus to complete a combat maneuver. While you are performing that gabimt, you are treated as having the Improved Combat Maneuver feat for that maneuver. When you reach BAB +6, you also count as having the Greater Combat maneuver feat for that combat maneuver. The defensive bonuses from these feats last until the beginning of your next turn.


Thank you for the help here, I'll be going over these notes for Piercing Thunder.

Gambit feats:
Favored Gambit could get out of hand pretty quickly here and same with Daring Dynamo, but Daring Maneuver has some strong merits.


Senpai noticed me! :D

I need to familiarize myself more with Askahic stuff, I was following it in the beginning but life got in the way. I need to sit down and digest that before I can really fully understand this one. But I will!!!


Yes. Why does every system have this irrational hatred of a man dual wielding a spear and a longsword? Whose primary thing is actually archery?

I'm currently happy though. I just need to make him a gestalt Harbinger//Ranger using the archetype. Ranger gets me Archery with Tempest Gale, and Harbinger focuses on Thunder and Thrashing Dragon. Weapon Group Adaptation (Heavy Blades, Piercing Thunder) combined with Slayer's Stance, and I'm good to go. Pick up Mixed Combat and I can switch hit.

I have no problem with it; a favorite character of my own found with a spear and sword. I want to make this happen. I will make this happen.


I have a question about the Mandala Adept archetype for Mystics.

At level 1, you get access to the Nimbus powers of your Mysteries (the two Mandalas you gain access to at level 1), but there doesn't actually seem to be a way to use Nimbus at level 1, because of how your starting and maximum Animus is set up.

Your starting animus is 1 + your charisma modifier; this is the number which you need to exceed by 1 in order to turn on your Nimbus power. My character has 4, as an example.

Your maximum animus is your mystic level + your charisma modifier; this is the number which you cannot, by any means exceed. For my level 1 mystic, this number is also 4.

Is this intended?

Also, I like the balance of having to build up your Animus through combat no matter what level you are, but the idea that my level 2 mystic can power his nimbus with 5 animus, whereas my level 20 mystic may need 12 or 13 to achieve the same feat just feels wrong. Perhaps there is some breakpoint where having your Nimbus automatically in a fight could be considered fair, but not the Blaze or Pyre, of course.

As an aside, I'm really happy to see the crusader recovery/ready mechanic and I'm glad that you can fully embrace it with the Mandala archetype.
The Glyphs and Sigils and Runes do feel like they are making the class a bit too complex though, I gotta say. This is perhaps the most complex class at level 1 that I've ever attempted to play; not necessarily a bad thing, but certainly daunting.

I will monkey around with this; I'll get it fixed. You're supposed to be able to use your nimbus. I'll just remove the cap on max animus; that cap existed for Mandala Adept specificially, but if I say "No higher powered auras till I say so" then it's not an issue.



What's the ETA until the PoW fighter archetype? I'm really curious to see what you guys do with the class.

High my agenda list. Piercing Thunder took over my time and I had only so much time to give. I'm on it again this week.


---

I think that's everything that I had to directly address? Please poke me if I missed you! I'm very sorry if I did!

-X

[PsyBomb]

I need to familiarize myself more with Askahic stuff, I was following it in the beginning but life got in the way. I need to sit down and digest that before I can really fully understand this one. But I will!!!

/shamelessplug in sig

[ErrantX]

/shamelessplug in sig

You've likely saved me a lot of time. Thank you, PsyBomb! :)

EDIT: Removed animus cap to Mystic to solve Mandala adept issue, and Tap Animus' max is now 5 + IM Mod.

Also: Mandala Adept - there are concerns its too big for an archetype. Opinions on this?

-X

[Elricaltovilla]

Knight disciple's gotten some tweaks, toying with the idea of giving them more uses of Guardian's Shield per day.

Monk of the Silver Fist has a new 15th level ability, might need to fix the wording.

Still trying to figure out the Ambush Stalker, although you can go ahead and have your Large+ size animal companions now.

Gonna take a look at some of the Bushidos next, per some suggestions from Fenryr. Thank you Fenryr.

[Ilorin Lorati]

Also: Mandala Adept - there are concerns its too big for an archetype. Opinions on this?

-X

Mandala Adept itself isn't too complex IMO, but when combined with 5 pages of options it becomes kind of intimidating. I almost want to suggest giving it a new rendition of the Mystic class table (Interjection Games does this in its releases for archetypes), but it would be awkward unless you would do that for all of them - which is more work than necessary.


Elric: as a reminder, Stalker's recovery method doesn't work thematically for Vigilante. As an addition to this, I'd really like to see a handful of custom arts for them, but that's less important. It looks fun to play but it doesn't really have a unique identity atm.

[Elricaltovilla]

Mandala Adept itself isn't too complex IMO, but when combined with 5 pages of options it becomes kind of intimidating. I almost want to suggest giving it a new rendition of the Mystic class table (Interjection Games does this in its releases for archetypes), but it would be awkward unless you would do that for all of them - which is more work than necessary.

My recommendation was to make it an Alternate Class instead of just an archetype, but I'm not a fan of Alternate Classes as a concept. It just seemed the cleanest way to make it work without being overwhelming.



Elric: as a reminder, Stalker's recovery method doesn't work thematically for Vigilante. As an addition to this, I'd really like to see a handful of custom arts for them, but that's less important. It looks fun to play but it doesn't really have a unique identity atm.

Right. Vigilante recovery method will be a thing. I don't see why it couldn't have a few unique Stalker Arts as well, I'll just have to try and come up with them.

[Tempestfury]

Right. Vigilante recovery method will be a thing. I don't see why it couldn't have a few unique Stalker Arts as well, I'll just have to try and come up with them.

Actually, I have three suggestions of my own, through their not entirely unique, as the first is based on ki vampirisim, the second is from Deadly Insight whislt the third is derived from the Edetic Recollection Investigator talent.

Inspiration Surge
If the stalker reduces a living foe to 0 or less hit points with a martial strike or sneak-attack, then he may regain 1 point of Inspiration as an immediate action. He may not use Inspiration Surge more times per day than his Intelligence Modifier. Minimum stalker level 11th.

Inspired Strike
The Vigilante can sometimes see and create openings to inflict damage onto an enemy that would otherwise be impossible. When initiating a martial strike, the Vigilante can spend 1 (2?) points of Inspiration in order to inflict Sneak-Attack damage on the strike, even if they would normally not be able to do so.

Combat Clairvoyance
The Vigilante has the ability to not just feel surges of inspiration that allows them to by-pass their normal restrains, but to bring out periods of immense focus when drawing on their unique combat abilities. Whenever a Vigilante is using a discipline skill for a maneuver, they may take 10 for the maneuver. By spending a point of Inspiration, they may instead take 20. Minimum stalker level 11th.

[squiggit]

My recommendation was to make it an Alternate Class instead of just an archetype, but I'm not a fan of Alternate Classes as a concept. It just seemed the cleanest way to make it work without being overwhelming.

Alternate class is just a really big archetype though.

I mean all you'd really be doing is changing what you call it. And making it even wordier because alternate classes have their own full class description. And then there's the argument over whether or not it's big enough to be an alternate class. And having to find way to reconcile other archetype options (i.e. stacking unarmed and mandala archetypes goes away and has to be redone some other way).

Speaking of vigilante. Love the class, though I'm convincing my GM to let me keep Deadly Strikes instead of Sneak Attack on mine.

[Sayt]

I was in the playtest, though my feedback won't be too useful. I made a Deadly Ambusher Ranger, and showed up late because I had a family dinner. So my character was in a jail cell, without his armor on. I was a Dex based (Fury for Thunder and picked up PTS) using a Halberd and a Spear. It was okay, but I didn't feel any different from a Warlord or a Dervish Defender, but worse. The problem is that the focus of the archetype is on the Animal Companion, and 4 is too late for a class defining ability to come online. It just makes those early levels a very boring slog. Especially when we had a Ravenlord next to me, essentially doing my job (super-pet class) better than me, because he had his pet and I didn't. And he had second level maneuvers.

Oh, and Wights are BS. Negative levels with no saves. On a CR 3. Thanks Cat. Thanks.

I won't be there next week (another family dinner), but the week after that, if Cat is still running these, I am bringing to the fore Turtle Power, a Solhofaat Paladin, to see how founded Cat's concerns about the archetype are.


Not a comparison. Yes, investigator's main damage source comes online at 4, but they aren't a combat focused class, they're a skill-focused class, and they get a lot of support for that from the start (Inspiration, Alchemy, excellent skill list + lots of points + Int focus). The Ambush Hunter, meanwhile, trades out Favored Enemy (one of the ranger's early damage sources) for Sneak Attack that only works when flanking with an animal companion they don't get until 4th level (and vs flat footed, but the full round recovery is rarely worth it to trigger that)

Ambush hunter needs some love at low levels. They're very animal companion dependent and don't get an animal companion until 4. Perhaps just bring thier companion forwards to 1, and they don't get, IDK, track, until 4?

Regarding suggested Gambit Feats: Mostly just spit-baling at the wall. Favoured gambit could definately be toned down, the important thing to keep, IMO, is counts as a boost.

Daring Dynamo should probably cap out and could admittedly get very out of hand. Maybe if you fail one of the gambits, you take the rake for all the attempted gambits, and they stack?

Also, a few months back, I drafted up a Dwarven Racial archetype for the Warder (http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/ForumsPro/viewtopic/p=44010.html), what do people think?

[Elricaltovilla]

Alternate class is just a really big archetype though.

I mean all you'd really be doing is changing what you call it.

They have slightly different rules about how they're to be published and how many/what kind of changes you can make. The ninja vs. rogue is a great example of what I'm talking about, with ninja tricks instead of rogue talents and the ki pool being slapped on there.


Speaking of vigilante. Love the class, though I'm convincing my GM to let me keep Deadly Strikes instead of Sneak Attack on mine.

Glad you like it.

[squiggit]

Anyone know of an easy to way to get buckler or light shield proficiency or something of the sort? Have a cool idea for an stalker who uses iron tortoise but right now it feels like my best option is dipping monk of the silver fist 1 for shielding fist and I'm not sure I want to go that route.


They have slightly different rules about how they're to be published and how many/what kind of changes you can make. The ninja vs. rogue is a great example of what I'm talking about, with ninja tricks instead of rogue talents and the ki pool being slapped on there.
Yeah. Those are all good things.

I just think there's a lot of "reinventing the wheel" issues that causes, since you'd either need to expand the mandala adept or essentially just print the mystic twice, and find a way to re-integrate things like unarmed options which work as-is were it still an archetype.



Glad you like it.

Lots of fun and lets me play my martial adept investigator idea without having to actually pester you guys with my homebrew investigator archetypes. The one complaint I mentioned is minor and just a personal quibble, deadly strike just is a more fun ability to me.

[Ilorin Lorati]

Anyone know of an easy to way to get buckler or light shield proficiency or something of the sort?

Shield Proficiency? (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/shield-proficiency---final) It has no prerequisites.

[CyanEyed]

As the Crimson Countess in Cat's playtest game, lol @ potions.
However, keeping track of all the nonstatic bonuses and penalties on me and my enemies might have given me cancer.

I realize this isn't very informative, so I'll go into more detail.

Drain is crazy strong. 1d6 healing from each claimed target might not seem ALL that strong if you haven't heard about Grasp of Darkness, which lets you claim 3 per turn.
That's not the only thing from Crimson Countess that that feat breaks in half either; The vitae building mechanic is heavily subverted by the ability to gain such a large amount of vitae on your first turn.

Which ties into the second part about nonstatic bonuses; Your vitae to hit and damage gets maxed out pretty much immediately, doesn't ever go down in combat, is higher than the bonus from Dark Focus (which it replaces), and is not tied to a particular discipline.
Also on the subject of nonstatic bonuses: Dark Authority is hella legit. Dark Allure would also be hella legit, if I wasn't a selfish bastard.

This is more of a niche synergy thing, but using Black Seraph's Glare with a Crimson Countess allows you to throw out an absurd number of intimidate checks, using the damage from your Crimson Claim and Drain... Which ties into another nonstatic bonus from Black Seraph Style. Use this at the risk of encountering nothing but undead and constructs for the rest of your game.
More reports on intimidate synergy will be forthcoming as the game progresses. Looking forward to that level 11 style feat.

[squiggit]

Shield Proficiency? (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/shield-proficiency---final) It has no prerequisites.

I gueeesssss. I was hoping for something flashier but that works.

[RedOndjage]

One thing that I feel is missing from the PoW material is the option for an offensively oriented, lightly armored, 1h+shield fighter. A viking/raider archetype, more or less. Perhaps focused on TWF-ing with a weapon and shield. I think that could work as a Warlord archetype, but what do the PoW devs think? Is there design space for such a thing, and would it be worth working on in my free time?

I also thought about working out a discipline to go with it--one inspired by the thu'um idea in Skyrim, with a side of Norse fighting techniques thrown in.

Is there interest in these ideas? Are they worth pursuing?

[Dromuthra]

Oh, and Wights are BS. Negative levels with no saves. On a CR 3. Thanks Cat. Thanks.


Yeeeeaaaah that part was hard. Once wightpocolypse began, we got REALLY lucky or else we would have just died there on the spot.

I realize this isn't very informative, so I'll go into more detail.

Drain is crazy strong. 1d6 healing from each claimed target might not seem ALL that strong if you haven't heard about Grasp of Darkness, which lets you claim 3 per turn.
That's not the only thing from Crimson Countess that that feat breaks in half either; The vitae building mechanic is heavily subverted by the ability to gain such a large amount of vitae on your first turn.

Which ties into the second part about nonstatic bonuses; Your vitae to hit and damage gets maxed out pretty much immediately, doesn't ever go down in combat, is higher than the bonus from Dark Focus (which it replaces), and is not tied to a particular discipline.
Also on the subject of nonstatic bonuses: Dark Authority is hella legit. Dark Allure would also be hella legit, if I wasn't a selfish bastard.

This is more of a niche synergy thing, but using Black Seraph's Glare with a Crimson Countess allows you to throw out an absurd number of intimidate checks, using the damage from your Crimson Claim and Drain... Which ties into another nonstatic bonus from Black Seraph Style. Use this at the risk of encountering nothing but undead and constructs for the rest of your game.
More reports on intimidate synergy will be forthcoming as the game progresses. Looking forward to that level 11 style feat.

I can corroborate the awesomeness of Dark Authority. It tends to give me between a +2 and +3 bonus to AC at most times. One idea I just had - it might be neat for there to be a teamwork feat (or set of them) to allow initiators to count enemies "marked" by allies as their own; i.e. warders could count claimed targets as marked for armegier, or vice versa, or Warder + Warder marks or Harbinger + Harbinger claims. It might be too difficult to make or too specific to be useful, but it just popped into my head.

[AGrinningCat]

-Knight Disciple
Crusader training options don't really excite me, but I believe they're just too narrow.
Knight Disciple lost all 3 options of in-and-out-of-combat healing, would be nice to see Lay on Hands exist along side Crusader's shield, but pull from the same pool. Maybe as a Crusader training option?
I'm also up and moving about so if you ever wanted to get something started to actually play the Knight Disciple before actually taking my suggestions. (Still a bit groggy though)



I need to familiarize myself more with Askahic stuff, I was following it in the beginning but life got in the way. I need to sit down and digest that before I can really fully understand this one. But I will!!!

Quickest rundown of Akashic stuff that you need to know for Radiant Sun:
As a swift action, you can reassign all of your essence into any containers you have.
You can only invest so much essence into your containers based off your level.
Class Level Essence Capacity
1st - 5th 1
6th - 11th 2
12th -17th 3
18th -20th 4
With Radiant Sun in mind, barring feats, your essence gain looks something like
Initiator Level Essence
1st-2nd 2
3rd-4th 3
5th-6th 4
7th-8th 5
9th-10th 6
11th-12th 7
13th-14th 8
15th-16th 9
17th+ 10
Assuming you get a Radiant Sun maneuver as soon as you pick it up.

Keeping that in mind, you can basically look at Radiant sun and say 'This is how powerful it will be when I first pick it up, this is how powerful it will be with the essence I can invest in it when I first pick it up, and this is how powerful it will be when I can invest all of the essence I can into it.'

[AGrinningCat]

Oh, and Wights are BS. Negative levels with no saves. On a CR 3. Thanks Cat. Thanks.


I can't believe y'all ruined my fun by killing all of the wights before they could properly start the wightocolypse

[CyanEyed]

I can't believe y'all ruined my fun by killing all of the wights before they could properly start the wightocolypse

Don't worry, you can just add a level 9 vizier in somewhere and start a wightocolypse whenever you want. And his wight is a hell of a lot scarier than a normal one.

[tekevil]

If you guys are still interested in a Marksman Archetype+Combat Style submission Kaidinah wrote this up https://docs.google.com/document/d/1k1NJzrFP63NguSjhZ8JkSbkyanFYmZL8it9QAhy1pZk

[TheIronGolem]

OK, so I'm looking over the archetypes document right now. I'm fielding suggestions for a capstone for the Knight Disciple, a replacement 15th level ability for the Monk of the Silver Fist, and any editing or wording issues that are in the current document.

Spitballing some Knight Disciple capstones:

When you use Guardian's Shield, the selected ally gains the benefit of your active stance as if they had activated it themselves; this does not count against the number of stances the ally has up.
All allies within 30' gain the benefit of your active stance (as above).
When you initiate a Silver Crane strike against a valid target for Smite Evil, you can use Smite Evil without it counting against your daily limit.
When you use Smite Evil against an evil outsider with a non-maneuver attack, you can perform your maneuver recovery (including the AC/save bonus to allies) as a free action.

[Milo v3]

And having to find way to reconcile other archetype options (i.e. stacking unarmed and mandala archetypes goes away and has to be redone some other way).

You can still take archetypes with alternate classes, it just generally is a much smaller amount of classes since they often remove things that are crucial to 90% of most archetypes for the class (the ninja can take Scout, but it can't take most archetypes since it lacks Trapfinder).

[Elricaltovilla]

Knight Disciple lost all 3 options of in-and-out-of-combat healing, would be nice to see Lay on Hands exist along side Crusader's shield, but pull from the same pool. Maybe as a Crusader training option?



I had to take the time to ask about this specifically. What three means of in and out of combat healing does the Paladin have? My guess would be Spells, LoH and channeling, but correct me if I'm wrong.

Knight Disciples can still use wands and scrolls as if they had paladin spellcasting, that's a class feature they have, which means spell based healing is retained to the most important degree.

Silver Crane is at least as good as Lay on Hands at healing and probably comparable to channel energy, plus it has the benefit of not being a limited resource and not being insanely inefficient (seriously, channel energy on a paladin is just a waste).

Guardian's Shield requires you to be more proactive, but can be worth multiple castings of remove disease/curse/whathaveyou and is better for dealing with conditions in general.

I think you're being pretty unfairly harsh towards the Knight Disciple. We went through all the different things that paladins could do with their spells and class features and found some way to jam them into the Knight Disciple, there shouldn't be any loss of ability barring extreme edge case spells.

[MilleniaAntares]

One thing that I feel is missing from the PoW material is the option for an offensively oriented, lightly armored, 1h+shield fighter. A viking/raider archetype, more or less. Perhaps focused on TWF-ing with a weapon and shield. I think that could work as a Warlord archetype, but what do the PoW devs think? Is there design space for such a thing, and would it be worth working on in my free time?

I also thought about working out a discipline to go with it--one inspired by the thu'um idea in Skyrim, with a side of Norse fighting techniques thrown in.

Is there interest in these ideas? Are they worth pursuing?
Vanguard Commander (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warlord/warlord-archetypes/vanguard-commander-warlord-archetype), while more defensively oriented than your default warlord, is more or less what you want. You trade out Solar Wind for Iron Tortoise, so you can use Iron Tortoise and Thrashing Dragon on the same character.

[Sayt]

Vanguard Commander (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warlord/warlord-archetypes/vanguard-commander-warlord-archetype), while more defensively oriented than your default warlord, is more or less what you want. You trade out Solar Wind for Iron Tortoise, so you can use Iron Tortoise and Thrashing Dragon on the same character.

On the subject of the Vanguard Commander, can we get a clarification of how heightened defences works? It gives you free immediate actions to use on counters, but it seems to be written as if immediate actions use last round's swift, instead of next round's boost. Also, if you use heightened defences three times in a round, does it eat your next three rounds worth of swift actions?

[Thealtruistorc]

I came up with some archetypes for PoW2. The accurser's abilities can likely just be combined with the fiendbound marauder, but the campeador has some new abilities you might find interesting (particularly solo tactics).

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PufrDDdTyvVDYsL-1d2ATC43DxEd2mbY_p3Toog90eY/edit

[TheEmperor]

A while back, I asked what fighting style was good for the Mystic (like one handed only, sword and board, 2H, TWF, what?) but I've managed to forget the answers people gave me. I'm planning on making a Mystic, and focusing on Veiled Moon, Elemental Flux, and either Riven Hourglass or Mithral Current (I'll need help on deciding which)...

Any help, guys?
OR
Didn't Elricaltovilla make a guide for it? I can't find it on the thread there.

[RedOndjage]

Vanguard Commander (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warlord/warlord-archetypes/vanguard-commander-warlord-archetype), while more defensively oriented than your default warlord, is more or less what you want. You trade out Solar Wind for Iron Tortoise, so you can use Iron Tortoise and Thrashing Dragon on the same character.

This is in the ballpark, but not quite what I mean. I meant a mobile, offensively oriented character who depends less on armor, and more on his shield specifically for defense. I also want to set up some kind of interaction between Scarlet Throne and Iron Tortoise to emphasize a very technical and thoughtful 1h and shield style.

What I'm thinking is something close to Vanguard Commander, but with an offensive rather than defensive bonus for being in Scarlet Throne and Iron Tortoise style, a scaling bonus to shield AC when wearing light armor, and possibly to count his shield hand as empty for the purpose of Scarlet Throne maneuvers and style feats.

I was also considering trading Warleader and Tactical Presence, and possibly the bonus feats, for a limited Raging Song specifically tied to Perform (oratory) and a couple of rage powers, with only the Inspired Rage and the Song of Marching as raging song choices.

If I make the thu'um inspired discipline, it would be tied to Perform (Oratory) as well.

[AGrinningCat]

I think you're being pretty unfairly harsh towards the Knight Disciple. We went through all the different things that paladins could do with their spells and class features and found some way to jam them into the Knight Disciple, there shouldn't be any loss of ability barring extreme edge case spells.

I probably am, but it's still something that rubs me the wrong way. I got a Silver crane healer in our group right now and I still had to dip into the life sphere to keep us from dying in fights.

(Granted, our GM hates our initiator, so those two are probably connected).

[tekevil]

I personally think an archetype trying to turn a Fighter into an initiator would end pretty badly simply because the Fighter lacks decent class features to trade out. If the archetype has some really cool stuff the trades are going to look so lopsided and very "Fighter+"

I think more success would come from building an archetype for the Warlord that is more of an everyman martial artist than a leader of men.

[squiggit]

I personally think an archetype trying to turn a Fighter into an initiator would end pretty badly simply because the Fighter lacks decent class features to trade out. If the archetype has some really cool stuff the trades are going to look so lopsided and very "Fighter+"
Maybe, but so what? The fighter is terrible, having a fighter+ archetype isn't a bad thing.

I mean the whole book is literally designed to be fighter+


I think more success would come from building an archetype for the Warlord that is more of an everyman martial artist than a leader of men.

Why the Warlord then? I mean, being leaderly is the class' entire gimmick.

[tekevil]

Between all 6 of the 9/9 initiators the Warlord is the closest to the "everyman" in terms of mechanics. Mystics are... Mystic, Harbringers are nightmares, Zealots are Psionic, and Warders are the embodiment of "tank." The Stalker could almost fit, but it's not full BAB.

The Warlord would require the least mechanical changes for an archetype. Additionally I'd say that the Warlord's most active gimmicks actually involve Gambits. Most of the leadery stuff Warlords do is passive auras.


Lastly, I could've sworn that I've seen several developers state multiple times that they don't intend to "fix" classes since they aren't Paizo.

[squiggit]

Between all 6 of the 9/9 initiators the Warlord is the closest to the "everyman" in terms of mechanics. Mystics are... Mystic, Harbringers are nightmares, Zealots are Psionic, and Warders are the embodiment of "tank." The Stalker could almost fit, but it's not full BAB.

The Warlord would require the least mechanical changes for an archetype. Additionally I'd say that the Warlord's most active gimmicks actually involve Gambits. Most of the leadery stuff Warlords do is passive auras.
Warders are the embodiment of tank, but warlords are embodiments of ... well, being leaders. Seems like a stalker without Ki or a warder without aegis/aura isn't any more crazy than stripping the warlord of everything but gambits.



Lastly, I could've sworn that I've seen several developers state multiple times that they don't intend to "fix" classes since they aren't Paizo.
So? No one's asked them to fix anything. That doesn't preclude making archetypes that trump the base class. Hell even Paizo does it with fighter archetypes.

[MilleniaAntares]

On the subject of the Vanguard Commander, can we get a clarification of how heightened defences works? It gives you free immediate actions to use on counters, but it seems to be written as if immediate actions use last round's swift, instead of next round's boost. Also, if you use heightened defences three times in a round, does it eat your next three rounds worth of swift actions?
I believe it is worded wonkily, but it may be intended to be used as a limited version of the Warder's Extended Defenses.

You and some guy, Bob, fight and roll initiative. You go first.

You use a boost and attack Bob. On Bob's turn, he full-attacks you.

Normally, you can only use one counter against him.

However, you can use Heightened Defense once to get a second counter, and a second time to get a third counter. Up to your limit.

Once your next turn comes around, you cannot use a swift action. However, the turn after that... if you do not use a counter, you can use your swift action.

[tekevil]

Changing a few passive class features=/=changing many active class features.

[ghanjrho]

IIRC, they've said that they plan to use the fighter's bonus feats as archtype fodder, to let it stack with basically every other fighter archtype.

[stack]

A while back, I asked what fighting style was good for the Mystic (like one handed only, sword and board, 2H, TWF, what?) but I've managed to forget the answers people gave me. I'm planning on making a Mystic, and focusing on Veiled Moon, Elemental Flux, and either Riven Hourglass or Mithral Current (I'll need help on deciding which)...

Any help, guys?
OR
Didn't Elricaltovilla make a guide for it? I can't find it on the thread there.

I like grabbing a sleeping goddess maneuver to become psionic, then taking blind fight and intuitive fighting to get WIS to attack. Works well with aurora fist, though a soulknife dip can be even better. If not going aurora fist, I like the rapier for being a good weapon in the light blades group. I let maneuvers supply the damage, so I don't worry about TWF. Haven't gotten to try it though. You definitely want a discipline weapon or weapon group adaption if focusing on elemental flux, plenty of saves there.

My build (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=1128414), level 5. Note a VERY high PB for the game he was built for.

I haven't seen the mystic guide posted yet, probably still a WIP.

[Elricaltovilla]

A while back, I asked what fighting style was good for the Mystic (like one handed only, sword and board, 2H, TWF, what?) but I've managed to forget the answers people gave me. I'm planning on making a Mystic, and focusing on Veiled Moon, Elemental Flux, and either Riven Hourglass or Mithral Current (I'll need help on deciding which)...

Any help, guys?
OR
Didn't Elricaltovilla make a guide for it? I can't find it on the thread there.

Guide isn't done because I hate feats and Mandala Adept is weird and probably just needs its own guide.

You've got two build directions you can choose from (Same as with nearly all other initiators): STR or DEX. STR is easier to make (grab the biggest discipline weapon you can and power attack) but DEX will likely have better returns in the long run, especially considering you're a mobile and aggressive striker.

Based on the disciplines you want, I'd recommend a light blade (specifically a rapier) DEX build. You'll want Weapon Finesse and Deadly Agility. Your disciplines don't really mesh well with TWF, so you might have the feats necessary to pull off using Mithral Current, in which case you'll want Quick Draw and Mixed Combat. Mithral Current Style would be helpful as well.

If Mithral Current seems too feat intensive, you'll be fine with focusing on Riven Hourglass instead. It has some of the best boosts and stances in the game.

[Vhaidara]

If Mithral Current seems too feat intensive, you'll be fine with focusing on Riven Hourglass instead. It has some of the best boosts, counters, and stances in the game.

FTFY Elric. Hourglass counters are insane.

[Elricaltovilla]

FTFY Elric. Hourglass counters are insane.

Mithral Current's counters are better than Riven Hourglass's, in my opinion.

[Vhaidara]

Mithral Current's counters are better than Riven Hourglass's, in my opinion.

Low levels, yes. High levels, it's hard to bear Celerity and "You can't kill me neener neener"

[stack]

Dex would be my build choice if not going WIS-SAD. WIS-SAD is fun though.

[ErrantX]

IIRC, they've said that they plan to use the fighter's bonus feats as archtype fodder, to let it stack with basically every other fighter archtype.

Pretty much this; I'm afraid no matter what I do is going to strictly be Fighter++ but I'm debating on whether or not I care that much. As it was pointed out, PoW is kinda Fighter++ anyway.


On the subject of the Vanguard Commander, can we get a clarification of how heightened defences works? It gives you free immediate actions to use on counters, but it seems to be written as if immediate actions use last round's swift, instead of next round's boost. Also, if you use heightened defences three times in a round, does it eat your next three rounds worth of swift actions?

Okay, lets begin by seeing what we're working with.


Heightened Defenses (Ex)

The vanguard commander is a capable warrior who can blend both defense and offense together with precision. The character gains an additional immediate action to be used for the purposes of initiating a counter on a round that he initiates a boost. He can use this additional immediate action a number of times per day equal to 1 + his Charisma modifier (minimum of 1).

This ability replaces the dual boost class feature.

Okay, the intent was that instead of boosting twice on the same swift action, that if you boosted in that round, you'd gain an immediate action if you needed it for use with a counter, so you wouldn't miss out on counters nor miss out on the next round's boost. Basically if you boost you can still counter before your next turn.

That clear it up any?

-X

[Lord_Gareth]

Okay, the intent was that instead of boosting twice on the same swift action, that if you boosted in that round, you'd gain an immediate action if you needed it for use with a counter, so you wouldn't miss out on counters nor miss out on the next round's boost. Basically if you boost you can still counter before your next turn.

That clear it up any?

-X

I can see where you're going with that, but the current RAW just lets you use a counter during your turn, on the same round you use a Boost.

Say you use a Boost, move, and end your turn. Then you are attacked and want to initiate a counter. Immediate actions, off of your turn, eat your next available swift; the fact that you used a Boost doesn't matter, because it's eating next turn's boost.

If we're looking to prevent that, we might want to do some minor errata. 's an easy fix.

[jguy]

I just looked through the Path of War over on paizo and I loved it, something confuses me though; what class can use Black Seraphim or Silver Crane? I don't see what class is trained in them.

[Elricaltovilla]

I just looked through the Path of War over on paizo and I loved it, something confuses me though; what class can use Black Seraphim or Silver Crane? I don't see what class is trained in them.

They aren't available to any class directly. You can either take a trait to change one of your class's disciplines for any other discipline, or you can join a Martial Tradition to gain the same benefit along with some roleplaying associated stuff. The Martial Traditions in particular you're looking for are the Empyreal Guardians (for Silver Crane) and the Black Thorn Knights (for Black Seraph).

[ghanjrho]

I just looked through the Path of War over on paizo and I loved it, something confuses me though; what class can use Black Seraphim or Silver Crane? I don't see what class is trained in them.
Additionally, the Umbral Blade prestige class can learn Black Seraph maneuvers, and the Discordant Crusader archype for the Zealot can access both. Admittedly, only one at a time until level 20, but still.

WRT the fighter archtype, I think that losing Bonus Feats instead of it's other class features will help, at least the perception of it. As any of the "In Defense of the Fighter" threads on this board will tell you, people look at 11 Bonus Feats and think that it is powerful, no matter that they can never give an answer on what feats they'd take that are just that AWESOME.

[The Glyphstone]

What trait alters your disciplines in-class? I thought Martial Traditions were the only way to do that.

[Elricaltovilla]

What trait alters your disciplines in-class? I thought Martial Traditions were the only way to do that.

Unorthodox Method. It's a playtest trait located at the bottom of the Feats document.

[PsyBomb]

What trait alters your disciplines in-class? I thought Martial Traditions were the only way to do that.

You are correct... at the moment. However, it has been brought up in this thread (and the last incarnation) that there WILL be a discipline-swap trait coming. We therefore make our Craft(Theory) rolls on the assumption of its presence :smallbiggrin:

[The Glyphstone]

Oh, excellent. That'll come in real handy.

[Thealtruistorc]

Why the Warlord then? I mean, being leaderly is the class' entire gimmick.

I actually had the same issue. I noced that their really isn't a dedicated fighting initiator outside the highly charismatic warlord. I cooked up this class to try and fill the void that exists for disciplined and honorable soldier character (I know those aren't exactly the most popular in american media, but they come up quite a bit in Roman myth and history).

For those not familiar, let me introduce you to the Marian. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?405858-New-Path-of-War-Initiator-Class-The-Marian&p=19043288#post19043288)

[NineThePuma]

Can we get Gale and Thunder out of the Class Template document, since they have their own? If it's necessary to have them near the class template, can we get links to their own docs?

[tekevil]

Feedback @ the Vigilante

-Sneak Attack :( Compared to the Deadly Strikes it replaced, sneak attack is a lot less fun. Additionally I think the damage can be boosted way too high compared to using Deadly Strikes. We've already heard plenty of stories about Stalkers shredding things and this bonus to damage just seems unnecessary.

Feedback @ Piercing Thunder

Stance of the Piercing Thunder is probably one of the best 3rd level stances out there. The only ones that are comparable are Broken Blades Thrashing Dragons. Most 3rd level stances are generally lower power compared to these three, like Scarlet Throne's "+10 spd +4 dodge AC to AoOs" and are generally used tactically as situations require it. Up till now I believed disciplines of the "weaker" and more feat intensive combat styles would get stronger stances overall to help compensate and till now that seemed correct. By that logic Piercing Thunder discipline would be least focused on applying steroids to the pole arm combat style since reach weapon combat is the most effective style in the game currently, but instead we get something that's arguably the strongest third level stance. +5 reach is HUGE in terms of gameplay and the player gets bonus damage and even a bonus to AC that stacks with everything!

Honestly with PoW:E I see a lot of totally unnecessary power creep over the first book and a lot of stuff that's just summed up as "do damage better and harder." The problem with mounted charges and maneuvers stacking is still existent and will definitely be problematic at any table that discovers them. Tempest Gale and to a lesser extent Piercing Thunder do a good job at actually expanding the options a martial character has at their fingertips and kudos to that, but we still get maneuvers like Leaping Strike that easily push damage over what most optimized martials are capable of.

We already know the Fighter and Rogue are trash and that you guys don't balance in respect to them, but why do we have combos of maneuvers that make Barbarians and Smiting Paladins envious? Initiators shouldn't be free from concessions otherwise there is no reason to even touch the original classes. If my Warder does about as much damage, has better AC, skills for days, protects the party like none other and saves just a bit behind a cheesed out barbarian we may have a problem.



For Comparisons sake 3rd level stances:

Thrashing Dragon: Lower 2WF Penalties by 2. +4 Initiative. d6+init modifier dmg
Broken Blade: Add an additional Attack at the end of a full attack. If 2wf add another off hand attack. Add a bonus to acrobatics to avoid AoOs
Piercing Thunder: +2 Dodge Bonus. +2d6 dmg. +5 ft reach

[Dusk Eclipse]

I agree that Piercing Thunder is one of the strongest disciplines out there, which doesn't strike me as bad per say, it does lock you down into certain weapons, unless you spend a valuable feat in Weapon Group Adaptation; and even then, some maneuvers and stances (maybe, I need to double check) specify the need to use polearms. Personally I would change the wording to use "discipline weapons" so other combat styles don't miss on the fun, also one would think that the disciple would have an stance to solve the "enemy somehow managed to get right next to me" problem that can arise.

[Taveena]

Mandala Adepts having 'known mandalas', which may or may not be the same thing as 'known mysteries', is only mentioned in the Glyphs paragraph. There's absolutely no mention of that being a thing in the earlier paragraphs, and it's very unclear how those would work with an Active Energy type. If you have Cascading Wind and Raging Storm as your known Mandalas/Mysteries, are you absolutely unable to change your Elemental Flux effects to anything but Air? Furthermore, a psionic character - let's say a Psychokineticist LOSES options by taking a Mandala Adept level. They start out initially able to use any active damage type, but by taking a Mandala Mystic level and having to pick two known Mandalasteries, they're now unable to pick any other than those associated with their Mysteralas. And a member of a DIFFERENT class with Elemental Flux - one who'd trait'd or tradition'd into it - similarly is suddenly unable to use half of their options.

I really hope this is outdated, because the Glyphs paragraph is, as it stands, really bizarre and punishing.

[ErrantX]

Feedback @ Piercing Thunder

Stance of the Piercing Thunder is probably one of the best 3rd level stances out there. The only ones that are comparable are Broken Blades Thrashing Dragons. Most 3rd level stances are generally lower power compared to these three, like Scarlet Throne's "+10 spd +4 dodge AC to AoOs" and are generally used tactically as situations require it. Up till now I believed disciplines of the "weaker" and more feat intensive combat styles would get stronger stances overall to help compensate and till now that seemed correct. By that logic Piercing Thunder discipline would be least focused on applying steroids to the pole arm combat style since reach weapon combat is the most effective style in the game currently, but instead we get something that's arguably the strongest third level stance. +5 reach is HUGE in terms of gameplay and the player gets bonus damage and even a bonus to AC that stacks with everything!

Honestly with PoW:E I see a lot of totally unnecessary power creep over the first book and a lot of stuff that's just summed up as "do damage better and harder." The problem with mounted charges and maneuvers stacking is still existent and will definitely be problematic at any table that discovers them. Tempest Gale and to a lesser extent Piercing Thunder do a good job at actually expanding the options a martial character has at their fingertips and kudos to that, but we still get maneuvers like Leaping Strike that easily push damage over what most optimized martials are capable of.

We already know the Fighter and Rogue are trash and that you guys don't balance in respect to them, but why do we have combos of maneuvers that make Barbarians and Smiting Paladins envious? Initiators shouldn't be free from concessions otherwise there is no reason to even touch the original classes. If my Warder does about as much damage, has better AC, skills for days, protects the party like none other and saves just a bit behind a cheesed out barbarian we may have a problem.

For Comparisons sake 3rd level stances:

Thrashing Dragon: Lower 2WF Penalties by 2. +4 Initiative. d6+init modifier dmg
Broken Blade: Add an additional Attack at the end of a full attack. If 2wf add another off hand attack. Add a bonus to acrobatics to avoid AoOs
Piercing Thunder: +2 Dodge Bonus. +2d6 dmg. +5 ft reach


I agree that Piercing Thunder is one of the strongest disciplines out there, which doesn't strike me as bad per say, it does lock you down into certain weapons, unless you spend a valuable feat in Weapon Group Adaptation; and even then, some maneuvers and stances (maybe, I need to double check) specify the need to use polearms. Personally I would change the wording to use "discipline weapons" so other combat styles don't miss on the fun, also one would think that the disciple would have an stance to solve the "enemy somehow managed to get right next to me" problem that can arise.

Tekevil and Dusk, I'll examine this stuff as I do not want that much power creep. I know I have some balance issues to continue to work out of Hourglass as well. In you opinion, Tekevil (or really anyone who wants to weigh in here!), where do you rate the rest of the nine new disciplines as compared to the original 11? More options certainly, but I am definitely concerned with power creep and we don't want to release options that remove the need for the original 11.


Mandala Adepts having 'known mandalas', which may or may not be the same thing as 'known mysteries', is only mentioned in the Glyphs paragraph. There's absolutely no mention of that being a thing in the earlier paragraphs, and it's very unclear how those would work with an Active Energy type. If you have Cascading Wind and Raging Storm as your known Mandalas/Mysteries, are you absolutely unable to change your Elemental Flux effects to anything but Air? Furthermore, a psionic character - let's say a Psychokineticist LOSES options by taking a Mandala Adept level. They start out initially able to use any active damage type, but by taking a Mandala Mystic level and having to pick two known Mandalasteries, they're now unable to pick any other than those associated with their Mysteralas. And a member of a DIFFERENT class with Elemental Flux - one who'd trait'd or tradition'd into it - similarly is suddenly unable to use half of their options.

I really hope this is outdated, because the Glyphs paragraph is, as it stands, really bizarre and punishing.

The mysteries vs mandalas thing, I've replaced instances of the word mysteries with mandalas because that's what's supposed to be there and I simply missed that. There are no mysteries, only mandalas.

The intent with the restriction on active element (and subsequently active energy type) is that while normal mystics are more broad, the Mandala adept is more focused and through this specialization, Mandalas are formed. The restriction was intentional. Feedback from others?


Can we get Gale and Thunder out of the Class Template document, since they have their own? If it's necessary to have them near the class template, can we get links to their own docs?

Done and done, the OP of this thread now has a more open layout and links to everything in split up documents.

-X

[Tempestfury]

Done and done, the OP of this thread now has a more open layout and links to everything in split up documents.

Awesome, that looks soooo much better.

[stack]

Could just ditch the quote code. Not sure having a giant quote block helps readability.

[Felyndiira]

If you don't mind me asking a question in this thread - is there a design reason for why all of the (current) martial classes get their fourth stance at level 8 instead of 9?

It just seems kinda weird to me since most disciplines have new stances at level 5 (IL 9) instead of level 4. Getting a new stance only one level before being able to access these, and then having to wait until IL 11 to get level 5 stances, seem a bit weird to me. I was just wondering if there was something behind this design choice.

Thanks :smallsmile:.

[Vhaidara]

If you don't mind me asking a question in this thread - is there a design reason for why all of the (current) martial classes get their fourth stance at level 8 instead of 9?

At first I thought you misread what was written, and then I double checked. Harbinger is safe, but I think someone in the editing department is in trouble...

[Elricaltovilla]

If you don't mind me asking a question in this thread - is there a design reason for why all of the (current) martial classes get their fourth stance at level 8 instead of 9?

It just seems kinda weird to me since most disciplines have new stances at level 5 (IL 9) instead of level 4. Getting a new stance only one level before being able to access these, and then having to wait until IL 11 to get level 5 stances, seem a bit weird to me. I was just wondering if there was something behind this design choice.

Thanks :smallsmile:.

No, no questions allowed.:smalltongue:

I'm trying to get that fixed actually. It's on the table for errata right now to fix the stance progression of all the classes and get all the disciplines on the same stance progression. The question right now is whether we should have stances at 1st, 3rd, 5th, and 8th or 1st, 3rd, 6th, and 8th.

[Vhaidara]

I'm trying to get that fixed actually. It's on the table for errata right now to fix the stance progression of all the classes and get all the disciplines on the same stance progression. The question right now is whether we should have stances at 1st, 3rd, 5th, and 8th or 1st, 3rd, 6th, and 8th.

Okay, I wasn't imagining that some disciplines had the stance at 5 and some at 6. That's actually been bugging me for a few days now. Since I started up Perfect Awesomeness.

[Elricaltovilla]

Okay, I wasn't imagining that some disciplines had the stance at 5 and some at 6. That's actually been bugging me for a few days now. Since I started up Perfect Awesomeness.

And some have a stance at both 5 and 6, and in both cases the 5th level stance is better than the 6th! It's craycray!:smalltongue:

[Snowbluff]

Aasimar Soundstriker Bard6/Warlord1/Bladecaster1

Stance of Arcane Steel

Order:
1) Subsume a second level slot for +2d6 damage per attack.
2) Tumble past foe for swift and move action for Acrobat Gambit.
3) Hit for (1d8+2d6+Chax2) x 9 with Weird Words. (Calculated for +6 Cha and assuming you hit the ranged touch 80% of the time andthe target succeed 50% of fort saves on average, ~127 damage)
4) Get slapped by DM and/or Bladecaster-chan.

[Felyndiira]

No, no questions allowed.:smalltongue:

I'm trying to get that fixed actually. It's on the table for errata right now to fix the stance progression of all the classes and get all the disciplines on the same stance progression. The question right now is whether we should have stances at 1st, 3rd, 5th, and 8th or 1st, 3rd, 6th, and 8th.

That's really good to hear. I'm looking forward to the errata.

If we reach level 8, I'll see if I can use your post to convince my GM to push the stance back to level 9 as a pending errata. Delaying Stance of the Crane Knight by two levels hurts way too much :smalltongue:.

Many thanks.

[Vhaidara]

Slight miscalculation, it's x6, not x9. You get 1 blast per bard level. I'm getting 84.6 Damage from that.
(4.5 + 7 + 6 * 2) * 6 * .8 * .75 = 84.6
4.5 = average damage of a d8
7 = average damage of 2d6
6 * 2 = given Cha mod, added twice
6 = Bard level, number of attacks made
.8 = Accuracy
.75 = Fortitude save (50% of them reduce the damage by 50%)

[Elricaltovilla]

Seriously Snowbluff, you are so Tsundere for the Bladecaster its not even funny. Okay, it actually is

[Snowbluff]

Slight miscalculation, it's x6, not x9. You get 1 blast per bard level. I'm getting 84.6 Damage from that.
(4.5 + 7 + 6 * 2) * 6 * .8 * .75 = 84.6
4.5 = average damage of a d8
7 = average damage of 2d6
6 * 2 = given Cha mod, added twice
6 = Bard level, number of attacks made
.8 = Accuracy
.75 = Fortitude save (50% of them reduce the damage by 50%)
Aasimar can add 1/2 their level to the performance level.

Seriously Snowbluff, you are so Tsundere for the Bladecaster its not even funny.

I-it's not like I build you because I like like you or anything.

(http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090111093933/uncyclopedia/images/6/65/PattingKagami.gif)

[Thealtruistorc]

Okey, I suspect that this has likely come up before, but since it stands as-is I feel that I should say something: the current monk archetype makes no sense. What monk has ever fought with gauntlets before, and why would they when the whole point of the class is to beat the tar out of enemies with your bare hands? Granted, the base class isn't the best at that either, but we should be fixing that issue rather than pulling a confusing and rather surreal fighting style out of nowhere. Psybomb's proposed archetype was able to make unarmed initiating work to a degree, and I think that with a few more tweaks (maybe a magus-style ability where you could spend ki to power up your unarmed strikes) it could make the monk a fun, relevant class again. I ask that you look over again and then consider what you are trying to accomplish with the PoW monk.

[Anlashok]

I'm not seeing how that makes it nonsensical or surreal. Or confusing for that matter. That whole thing reads like angry melodrama because you don't like gauntlets or something.

[JHShadon]

I haven't read most of the pages on the threads so sorry if this has been asked before but I'm wondering if a Gunslinger archetype is in the works.

[Vhaidara]

I personally like the monk archetype. I mean, what would an adaptation of the normal monk to PoW look like? Broken Blade, Steel Serpent, Veiled Moon, Wisdom based...Wait, that's the Stalker who took Greater Unarmed Strike.

DSP is taking the opportunity to do something different: A monk who works as a guardian, using armored fists both to strike at foes and to shield his allies.

[Anlashok]

My biggest issue with the monk archetype is... What about its chassis is so much better than the stalker? Because the Silver Fist gets only 6th level maneuvers and the stalker 9ths, but looking at both of their class features I don't really see anything that makes me think "Oh wow the silver fist is so badass that must be why".

What am I missing?

[Elricaltovilla]

My biggest issue with the monk archetype is... What about its chassis is so much better than the stalker? Because the Silver Fist gets only 6th level maneuvers and the stalker 9ths, but looking at both of their class features I don't really see anything that makes me think "Oh wow the silver fist is so badass that must be why".

What am I missing?

That's because only Initiating Base Classes get 9th level maneuvers by leveling. It has nothing to do with the Monk of the Silver Fist specifically, it was a general rule put in place to protect the identity of our base classes. You can still gain higher level maneuvers through the Advanced Study feat or by prestige classing.

That being said, I personally think the Monk of the Silver Fist is pretty badass, it's a solid attacker that can target enemies through multiple avenues and makes a great bodyguard style tank with its ability to take hits for allies and rush to their rescue, even adding their WIS to an allies AC and Saving Throws for a round.

[Vhaidara]

Also, archetype stacking. Going through the options, Silver Fist stacks with
Drunken Master
Ki Mystic
Monk of the Iron Mountain
Qinggong Monk

Not as big of a list as I expected (Stunning Fist is a really popular tradeout), but combined with the fact that the Stalker is (in my opinion) the least inspiring PoW class (Class features are meh, archetypes [minus Vigilante] are meh, maneuver recovery is meh, most stalker arts are meh), it makes it an actual candidate.

I am going to repost my request that Monk of the Silver Hand remove the alignment restriction. As it stands, an initiating Monk has no method of getting Broken Blade besides trait (since the tradition requires non-Lawful)

[Anlashok]

I can't say I agree with all the bizarre rules about class identity here, but I suppose it makes sense.

[Vhaidara]

I can't say I agree with all the bizarre rules about class identity here, but I suppose it makes sense.

Basically, if your class is supposed to be an initiator, then it gets 9ths. Kind of like how no archetype is going to give a class with no casting 9th level spells. also, if the monk got 9ths, then that would be extremely unfair to the Ranger, the Paladin, and the Soulknife (PsyWar and Alch still get their casting/manifesting)

Honestly, it makes more sense than the rule about "no one can have X discipline natively, it's unique to Y class, except through trait. And tradition. And archetypes."

[RolkFlameraven]

That's really good to hear. I'm looking forward to the errata.

If we reach level 8, I'll see if I can use your post to convince my GM to push the stance back to level 9 as a pending errata. Delaying Stance of the Crane Knight by two levels hurts way too much :smalltongue:.

Many thanks.

As we just DID hit level 8 this, so much this. I was all happy to be level 8 and get a new stance just to see the one I wanted I can't get till 9th and then came the manly tears. :redface:

[Tempestfury]

Just want to double check, but 'All Scarlet Throne maneuvers and stances require that the initiator not be using any kind of shield in their off-hand' is incorrect and you can use Scarlet Throne with a shield? And can Bucklers be used to Shield Bash with Iron Tortoise Maneuvers? got a Gestalt game, and I'm wondering if Swashbuckler/Warder is a possible combination.

[Elricaltovilla]

Just want to double check, but 'All Scarlet Throne maneuvers and stances require that the initiator not be using any kind of shield in their off-hand' is incorrect and you can use Scarlet Throne with a shield? And can Bucklers be used to Shield Bash with Iron Tortoise Maneuvers? got a Gestalt game, and I'm wondering if Swashbuckler/Warder is a possible combination.

Yes you can use scarlet throne maneuvers with a shield in your off hand. You need the Buckler Bash feat to be able to shield bash with a buckler.

[Tempestfury]

Right, Buckler Bash. Should of checked out the feats. Still, it makes my class idea work. Awesome, can't wait to try it out.

[Taveena]

The mysteries vs mandalas thing, I've replaced instances of the word mysteries with mandalas because that's what's supposed to be there and I simply missed that. There are no mysteries, only mandalas.

The intent with the restriction on active element (and subsequently active energy type) is that while normal mystics are more broad, the Mandala adept is more focused and through this specialization, Mandalas are formed. The restriction was intentional. Feedback from others?



I'm conceptually fine with the specialisation (though the known mandalas should PROBABLY go elsewhere.)
The problem is that a multiclass character who takes a level of Mandala Adept LOSES options. Psion 1 can pick any active energy type. Psion 1/Mandala Adept 1 can only pick those associated with his starting mandalas.
Warlord 1 traited into Elemental Flux, any active element. Warlord 1/Mandala Adept 1, ONLY the two. This is weird. Multiclassing should NOT make your OTHER classes suck more.

[AGrinningCat]

Also, archetype stacking. Going through the options, Silver Fist stacks with
Drunken Master
I am going to repost my request that Monk of the Silver Hand remove the alignment restriction. As it stands, an initiating Monk has no method of getting Broken Blade besides trait (since the tradition requires non-Lawful)

You know what Monk of the Silver hand reminds me of?

http://i.imgur.com/bTfGPlW.png

And it's awesome.

[Elricaltovilla]

That's a pretty cool little weapon. I think I said something about this way back when I debuted the archetype, but it was a character concept I'd wanted to play out for a long time but I could never quite pull it off with the written materials. So I went and made my own :smallamused:

[Tempestfury]

So... are we only going to have any additional traits, or are we just going to keep what we have?

Wanting EWP as a Trait is probably unreasonable, despite how lame EWP actually is...

[ghanjrho]

So... are we only going to have any additional traits, or are we just going to keep what we have?

Wanting EWP as a Trait is probably unreasonable, despite how lame EWP actually is...

Sadly, DSP is, by nature of being a 3PP, limited in what they can do. Add? Sure. Replace? Not so much.

[Sayt]

....Man, Dwarven Warpikes would be great for Zweihander Sentinel Hussars. Kinda want DSP to port it forwards now. u.u

[MilleniaAntares]

Yes you can use scarlet throne maneuvers with a shield in your off hand. You need the Buckler Bash feat to be able to shield bash with a buckler.
Does the restriction remain for not having a weapon in your off-hand?

[AGrinningCat]

That's a pretty cool little weapon. I think I said something about this way back when I debuted the archetype, but it was a character concept I'd wanted to play out for a long time but I could never quite pull it off with the written materials. So I went and made my own :smallamused:

It's even cooler when you have the full book. There's half a dozen or so addons you can toss onto that glove to make it even better. Like putting a pistol into it. It's kinda like your own version of Psychic Strike!

[TheIronGolem]

You know what Monk of the Silver hand reminds me of?

http://i.imgur.com/bTfGPlW.png

And it's awesome.

What book is that from?

[AGrinningCat]

What book is that from?

Swashbuckling Adventures Campaign setting rulebook by AEG. Published under the OGL back in 3.5.

It hosts a neat feature of things that I hope other 3rd party publishers will pick up, like Unarmored Armor feat line or mundane weapon customizations.
http://i.imgur.com/XihZws4.png

[Doomeye56]

I really like the Monk of the Silver Hand, my GM is stooked that I plan on using his Scorpion Cestus, Gauntlets that can fire grappling hooks.

[Elricaltovilla]

I really like the Monk of the Silver Hand, my GM is stooked that I plan on using his Scorpion Cestus, Gauntlets that can fire grappling hooks.

Let me know how you like it. I love hearing reactions and impressions from players who actually get to use the classes and archetypes in a game.

[master4sword]

So... are we only going to have any additional traits, or are we just going to keep what we have?

Wanting EWP as a Trait is probably unreasonable, despite how lame EWP actually is...

Oh, an EWP trait would be nice, but traits are supposed to be worth less than a feat, so it'd almost have to have a restriction of some kind. The trick is, therefore, finding an appropriate drawback or restriction that makes it still worth taking.

Actually... "Select one exotic weapon. You treat it as a martial weapon" could probably work as a trait. I mean, certain racial weapon proficiencies work that way, so it's not like "treat it as martial" is a new concept or anything. Or is this still too powerful for a trait?

[Eox]

Oh, an EWP trait would be nice, but traits are supposed to be worth less than a feat, so it'd almost have to have a restriction of some kind. The trick is, therefore, finding an appropriate drawback or restriction that makes it still worth taking.

Actually... "Select one exotic weapon. You treat it as a martial weapon" could probably work as a trait. I mean, certain racial weapon proficiencies work that way, so it's not like "treat it as martial" is a new concept or anything. Or is this still too powerful for a trait?

EWP as a trait is something I would very much like to see. Of course due to the whole less-than-a-feat thing it's gonna need a restriction, but said restriction should more or less be a non-issue. Like "Must be a discipline weapon for one of your available disciplines" or like you said "Treat as a martial weapon"

[Snowbluff]

How about it lowers the penalty for not being proficient? -2 instead of -4? Maybe another trait for the other -2 and provoking AoO.

Then again, PF exotics suck and it wasn't really worth a feat in 3.5 most of the time, either.

[squiggit]

EWP is already worth less than a feat on its own, so it seems like it's a problem that solves itself

[CGNefarious]

As of right now I can never see myself taking EWP as a feat. It's just absolutely never worth it mechanically, and even thematically it rarely ever adds anything to a build. As a trait though I could see myself taking it on occasion to get that niche weapon that would be cool to have but doesn't really add much to a build.

[Taveena]

Exotic Weapon Proficiency was worth the feat in 3.5e due to the Spiked Chain, Meteor Hammer, Rope Dart, Minotaur Greathammer, Kaorti weapons, and in niche cases the heavy metal weapons.

Of those, the ones that exist in Pathfinder were heavily nerfed.

Anyone know any PF weapons worth the feat? <<

[Ironsides]

I really like the idea if EWP as a trait but it has been done before and errated away. That trait was Heirloom Weapon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/equipment-traits/heirloom-weapon) and I think that it has been nerfed multiple times into its current version. :/

But I can think of a couple sneaky ways to get access to a weapon you want but I am having trouble wording these traits correctly.

Adopted Protégé

You were raised by a martial arts master of a different race.

Benefit: Choose a race other than your own. You are treated as if you were from the chosen race for any racial weapon proficiencies. (Like if you chose Elf then you would gain their weapon familiarity with longbows (including composite longbows), longswords, rapiers, and shortbows (including composite shortbows), and treat any weapon with the word “elven” in its name as a martial weapon.)

Tengu are proficient with all bladed weapons. Just sayin'.

That was my better idea but I have another.

Master Weapon Smith

You know how to use the weapons you create.

Benefit: You are proficient with any masterwork weapon you craft yourself.

But this is probably a moot point. If they nerfed Heirloom Weapon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/equipment-traits/heirloom-weapon) so that you still need EWP then DSP may not want to do the same thing. I get depressed when I read the comments about Heirloom Weapon on the Paizo meassage boards. Some people don't want martials to have nice things.

Edited for grammar.

[CGNefarious]

Why should martials get nice things when they can't even cast spells?

[deuxhero]

There actually already are a few traits that give weapon proficiency in Pathfinder. Shoanti Tattoo (earth breakers, klars, and Shoanti bolas.) and Varisian Tattoo (bladed scarves and starknives.) from Varisia, Birthplace of Legends and Hunter's Eye (Longbow+Shortbow) and Weapon Style (any monk weapon) from some PFS document (don't seem to be on the Archives of Nethys anymore, no idea).


Should be reasonable if you limited to a specific weapon that wasn't particularly good anyways.

[Tempestfury]

Treating an exotic weapon as martial seems like a fair trade to me. Not reducing the penalty for non proficient items, that already exists and it is very, very bad.

[Sayt]

Exotic Weapon Proficiency was worth the feat in 3.5e due to the Spiked Chain, Meteor Hammer, Rope Dart, Minotaur Greathammer, Kaorti weapons, and in niche cases the heavy metal weapons.

Of those, the ones that exist in Pathfinder were heavily nerfed.

Anyone know any PF weapons worth the feat? <<

I think someone did the math, and yes: Falcata on fighter, in the long run. Something to do with the native flat damage and crit auto-confirm.

[ghanjrho]

Treating an exotic weapon as martial seems like a fair trade to me. Not reducing the penalty for non proficient items, that already exists and it is very, very bad.

As an item, that costs 1500 GP and is slotless (cracked opalescent pyramid ioun stone). Certainly seems acceptable as a trait (familiarity is the proper term for treating a weapon as martial)

[AGrinningCat]

Aasimar Soundstriker Bard6/Warlord1/Bladecaster1

Stance of Arcane Steel

Order:
1) Subsume a second level slot for +2d6 damage per attack.
2) Tumble past foe for swift and move action for Acrobat Gambit.
3) Hit for (1d8+2d6+Chax2) x 9 with Weird Words. (Calculated for +6 Cha and assuming you hit the ranged touch 80% of the time andthe target succeed 50% of fort saves on average, ~127 damage)
4) Get slapped by DM and/or Bladecaster-chan.


http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9t4f
Change the text of weird words to the following “At 6th level the bard can start a performance that is always a standard action to speak up to one word per 4 bard levels laden with sonic energy. Each word deals 4d6 points of sonic damage as a ranged touch attack with a range of 30 feet. The bard adds his charisma modifier on damage rolls with weird words. Multiple words that strike the same target stack into a single powerful attack, applying energy resistance and bonuses on damage rolls only once. The bard can target all words at the same or different targets, but he unleashes all words simultaneously. Each word costs 1 round of bardic performance.” This change will be reflected in future errata.

You'd only apply the 2d6 from Stance of Arcane Steel once against a single target.

[Snowbluff]

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9t4f
Change the text of weird words to the following “At 6th level the bard can start a performance that is always a standard action to speak up to one word per 4 bard levels laden with sonic energy. Each word deals 4d6 points of sonic damage as a ranged touch attack with a range of 30 feet. The bard adds his charisma modifier on damage rolls with weird words. Multiple words that strike the same target stack into a single powerful attack, applying energy resistance and bonuses on damage rolls only once. The bard can target all words at the same or different targets, but he unleashes all words simultaneously. Each word costs 1 round of bardic performance.” This change will be reflected in future errata.
This was made before the errata was printed, because I wanted a chance to abuse it. :smallwink:


You'd only apply the 2d6 from Stance of Arcane Steel once against a single target.

Your answer is still wrong. 6 + 6*.5 = 9. Unless there's another reason why it wouldn't apply multiple times, I get more hits.

Even then, your attacks scale quickly. At 8, you have 3. If you hit effective level 28 for the performance with aasimar, you would have seven. This build would only get 6, but 56d6+ Cha*12 is about enough to make a stegosaurus druid blush.

[Vhaidara]

This was made before the errata was printed, because I wanted a chance to abuse it. :smallwink:


Your answer is still wrong. 6 + 6*.5 = 9. Unless there's another reason why it wouldn't apply multiple times, I get more hits.

Even then, your attacks scale quickly. At 8, you have 3. If you hit effective level 28 for the performance with aasimar, you would have seven. This build would only get 6, but 56d6+ Cha*12 is about enough to make a stegosaurus druid blush.

Well, you also forgot about the FAQ that prevents you from getting a stat to damage more than once. So your gambit isn't really doing anything for you. However, that does mean you can go diving for a boost. Off the top of my head, from low level options, Strength of Hell is a 10% increase in accuracy for 1d6 extra damage.

[Snowbluff]

Well, you also forgot about the FAQ that prevents you from getting a stat to damage more than once. So your gambit isn't really doing anything for you. However, that does mean you can go diving for a boost. Off the top of my head, from low level options, Strength of Hell is a 10% increase in accuracy for 1d6 extra damage.
Right... ugh, **** Paizo.

Yeah, I can grab a boost. Encouraging Roar is +2 attack and damage for a round, but it's also a moral bonus, so it can being extended by traits.

If you skip the Warlord level, you can get 7 hits from soundstriker for 70d6+Cha*7. Alternatively, you can use Pinhole gambit for more accuracy.

[CyanEyed]

Got a kinda weird question.

Can power attack be used in conjunction with maneuvers that replace an attack roll? For example, scarlet throne's Rising Zenith Strike, which uses a sense motive check in place of an attack.
If yes, does it modify the attack roll as normal, or, since the roll is not actually an attack roll, just equate to free damage on a hit?

[ErrantX]

Got a kinda weird question.

Can power attack be used in conjunction with maneuvers that replace an attack roll? For example, scarlet throne's Rising Zenith Strike, which uses a sense motive check in place of an attack.
If yes, does it modify the attack roll as normal, or, since the roll is not actually an attack roll, just equate to free damage on a hit?

Yes, if the attack is an actual attack roll. In Skill replacements, no.

-X

[Elricaltovilla]

Yes, if the attack is an actual attack roll. In Skill replacements, no.

-X

So no power attack on Rising Zenith Strike? Huh. Guess I gotta go re-rate power attack :smalltongue:

I'd been doing it where you can still power attack, you just take the penalty on the skill check roll like you would if it was a normal attack roll.

[Felyndiira]

Yes, if the attack is an actual attack roll. In Skill replacements, no.

-X

Can you put out an official FAQ or errata for things like this? As written, there's nothing in the book that suggests that you can't power attack with Rising Zenith Strike (and RAW interpretations suggest that it could), so I'm guess a lot of us rate the maneuver more highly than it should be because we still think it's compatible with PA.

[ErrantX]

So no power attack on Rising Zenith Strike? Huh. Guess I gotta go re-rate power attack :smalltongue:

I'd been doing it where you can still power attack, you just take the penalty on the skill check roll like you would if it was a normal attack roll.

Okay, strictly speaking, I intended it to not work with Power Attack but nothing I've written forbids it. Let me amend my statement.


Can you put out an official FAQ or errata for things like this? As written, there's nothing in the book that suggests that you can't power attack with Rising Zenith Strike (and RAW interpretations suggest that it could), so I'm guess a lot of us rate the maneuver more highly than it should be because we still think it's compatible with PA.

Again, we are putting together an official errata. The more errata work we do, the less time we're working on the new book unfortunately. Give us time and we'll get out an errata.

-X

[Vhaidara]

Perhaps open up another thread with WIP errata?

[ErrantX]

Perhaps open up another thread with WIP errata?

Well, we -had- one going but then we started website transitioning so we're keeping it internal atm. May need to start another one on the new website.

-X

[Felyndiira]

Again, we are putting together an official errata. The more errata work we do, the less time we're working on the new book unfortunately. Give us time and we'll get out an errata.

-X

My apologies, I wrote that post without thinking, since the Zenith Strike news was a bit of a sudden shock.

[ErrantX]

RAI, my intent was for skill check to attack maneuvers to not be compatible with Power Attack and the like because you weren't making an attack roll, strictly speaking, but a skill check. My fault for not expressly stating that. RAW, you're totally able to do so.

This is something we'll evaluate. Carry on as you have been. :smallsmile:

-X

[RolkFlameraven]

RAI, my intent was for skill check to attack maneuvers to not be compatible with Power Attack and the like because you weren't making an attack roll, strictly speaking, but a skill check. My fault for not expressly stating that. RAW, you're totally able to do so.

This is something we'll evaluate. Carry on as you have been. :smallsmile:

-X

Oh good! I thought it worked because 'he may add any enhancement bonus from his weapon or feats that apply from the use of his weapon to this Sense Motive check as well'

So we've been running that PA is a feat that applies so its was fine. It makes the damage NICE when it hits, but I've missed due to PA a few times as SM is, well SM.

and my god did they nerf the heck out of heirloom weapon! I've still got the book with the old copy, I think my group will be staying with that version, wow.

[Kymera]

Yea, the Heirloom Weapon nerfs were less Paizo saying "we don't want martials to have nice things" and more them saying "we don't want martials to have reasonably functional things".

[Thealtruistorc]

....Man, Dwarven Warpikes would be great for Zweihander Sentinel Hussars. Kinda want DSP to port it forwards now. u.u

Y'know, ever since PoW came out I've seen tons of clambering for new weapons, and have seen quite a few interesting concepts (sadly the old DSP forums are no longer around, so I can't link to them). I nominate that we try and get together as many of the crazy weapons as we can manage (I liked the fullblade that was submitted a while back).

[Kaidinah]

I would personally love to see more gauntlet weapons, like that panzerhand from earlier. Monks of the Silver Hand, Stalkers, Steelfist Commandos, and even Warders (If one gauntlet counted as a shield) would play fantastically with them.

Also, the paizo blunt weapons and axe type weapons tend to be bad. Though at least they have some synergy with Scarlet Throne's auto-critical threat maneuvers.

If not new weapons, I'd love to see martial feats that improve certain weapon group functions.

[Tempestfury]

Are... we talking about base weapons, or specific weapons? As a specific discipline weapon like in Tome of Battle, could potentially be awesome, if the weapons were actually GOOD. Besides that... I wanna the Twin Hookswords, and actually be worth taking EWP for.

Oh and, person who makes all those PoW guides? Your guides aren't complete, no equipment or traits sections.

[PsyBomb]

Are... we talking about base weapons, or specific weapons? As a specific discipline weapon like in Tome of Battle, could potentially be awesome, if the weapons were actually GOOD. Besides that... I wanna the Twin Hookswords, and actually be worth taking EWP for.

Oh and, person who makes all those PoW guides? Your guides aren't complete, no equipment or traits sections.

to be fair, coming from someone who also has three guides written, there is a freaking TON of information out there to dig through. My guides also (currently) lack Trait sections, despite there being several that are game-changers (Snowstrider and Relentless Logic, among others). Equipment is even worse, if only because it is so hard to search through.

[Elricaltovilla]

Oh and, person who makes all those PoW guides? Your guides aren't complete, no equipment or traits sections.

That would be me. The lack of equipment is because I had a hard time figuring out how to organize it, basic equipment suggestions are located in the general guide and magic Items are a bitch and a half. Traits are lacking because, again bitch and a half, and up until last week there weren't any POW traits. There's an entire guide to traits already out there.

If you have item contributions to suggest, go ahead and do so in the PoW guides thread.

[Tempestfury]

... I'll get back to you on that one, as I admit, it is a rather difficult selection to do, especially beyond the normal stat boosting equipment.

[squiggit]

That would be me. The lack of equipment is because I had a hard time figuring out how to organize it, basic equipment suggestions are located in the general guide and magic Items are a bitch and a half. Traits are lacking because, again bitch and a half, and up until last week there weren't any POW traits. There's an entire guide to traits already out there.

If you have item contributions to suggest, go ahead and do so in the PoW guides thread.

What I've seen a lot for weapon sections in guides is that you have a section going over various generic weapons, procs and cons of greatsword vs longsword vs starknife etc. Then a list of a few noteworthy weapon properties you want to include and a description of why they're either good or a trap.

[deuxhero]

up until last week there weren't any POW traits.

There are now? I know the "trade a discipline" trait was mentioned as something that would exist for far longer, but I never saw it stated down or any other traits.

[Snowbluff]

POW traits.

POW Traits? Nononono. Warlords -> They take fate's favored. +1 to gambits. Was that so hard? :smalltongue:

Additionally, trait guides blooooooooooooooooooooow. They are mostly walls of text that are too large to search effectively.

Finally, I think it's weird when a person writing material makes a guide for it.

[Vhaidara]

Finally, I think it's weird when a person writing material makes a guide for it.

Elric doesn't. He has pointedly requested others (such as myself) deal with writing guide for his stuff. It's why I started doing my reviews.

[deuxhero]

What happens if a Knight Disciple's Divine Interception or Righteous Sanctuary has the movement interrupted (such as by a readied trip, a pit trap on the chosen route, or an invisible enemy between the two)?

[AGrinningCat]

There was talk about new Warlord gambits, was there any gambits to help you jump across chandeliers or other hopping around?

Edit: Also is there any support for gun and sword? Thrashing Dragon specifies melee, but could I shoot someone point blank?

[Kymera]

Discordant Crusader archetype for Zealot: What is the duration of the -4 penalties from the second part of the Twofold Fire ability?

[Forrestfire]

Sorry to continuously come back and nitpick on things, but I wanted to raise a point about Thrashing Dragon Whirlwind's wording:


Thrashing Dragon Whirlwind [Combat]
Your fury strikes out at all enemies around you.
Prerequisites: Thrashing Dragon Pounce, Acrobatics 11 ranks
Benefit: As a full round action, you can make a single attack against each enemy in melee range with each manufactured weapon you wield.


First thing: this is not using the two-weapon fighting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Two-Weapon-Fighting)combat action, so you don't take penalties to the attacks as normal. May or may not be intentional, I'm not sure... What's more important about that is that since it's not actually two-weapon fighting, it's not limited to the single offhand attack that you'd normally be limited to.

Admittedly, this isn't as terrifying as it could be, since Pathfinder only has a few things that really break it, only these:

Any one-handed weapon in the main hand
Any one-handed weapon in the off hand
A spiked gauntlet on each hand
A dwarven boulder helmet
Spiked armor


These are all weapons you're wielding, and so, it's six attacks to everything in melee (seven if you're a monk, since they treat Unarmed Strikes as manufactured), with no TWF penalties since you're not actually doing anything to trigger them through the two-weapon fighting rules (unless there's an important FAQ I missed; but even then, just put the offhand as a light weapon and it's back down to the normal penalties). I feel like this is probably unintended, but not super-broken if you're sticking to vanilla Pathfinder + DSP stuff.

However, not all groups do that, and I feel like the feat is incredibly dangerous in some situations, for example, in 3.p, which my group generally plays, you can do this:


One-handed in main hand
One-handed in off hand
Two spiked gauntlets
Armor spikes
Braid blade
Mouthpick weapon
Two elbow blades
Two boot blades
Two knee blades
Two sleeve blades
Two weighted sleeves
Possibly others I don't remember off the top of my head


As awesome and immensely cool it is to have a feat that turns you into Paimon, I feel like that's proooobably not something that's along the lines of the other feats, and I feel like the intent of the weapon was to be TWF whirlwind attack, and not "you're now a dancer of death".

My proposed rewording would be this:


Thrashing Dragon Whirlwind [Combat]
Your fury strikes out at all enemies around you.
Prerequisites: Thrashing Dragon Pounce, Acrobatics 11 ranks
Benefit: As a full round action, you can make a single attack each against every enemy within melee range with a weapon your main hand and a weapon in your off hand. You do not take the normal penalties for fighting with two weapons while making these attacks.
Special: If you have more than two arms, you can use each of your off hands to make an attack, instead of just the one.


Or something. Not entirely sure if that's the best wording, but I'd rewrite it to not allow asshats like me to think of silly abuses of the feat.

[Eox]

Don't forget Blade Boots (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/blade-boot), which come to think of it combine remarkably well with the Serene Stride feat.

[stack]

I think there is a general 'one attack per limb' rule, not sure it's actually written though. As a Dm I would use it, but errata would probably be wise.

[Felyndiira]

I'm wondering if, as written, 'each weapon you wield' can be combined with the Mixed Combat feat for effectively infinite attacks, since each dagger that you draw is now a new weapon that you are now wielding and has not yet made an attack with.

If so, you don't need more limbs or boot blades. Just one feat and lots of daggers on your belt would suffice.


Also, a random question about Combat Patrol and the Warder's version of the ability. They specify that you can move as a part of AOOs that an opponent provokes; does this mean that you can use the ability to foil charges, by have a reach weapon and moving in a way so that you are 90 degrees from the charge path when you make your attack of opportunity as soon as he steps into your 20'+ threatened area?

[Elricaltovilla]

POW Traits? Nononono. Warlords -> They take fate's favored. +1 to gambits. Was that so hard? :smalltongue:

Additionally, trait guides blooooooooooooooooooooow. They are mostly walls of text that are too large to search effectively.

Finally, I think it's weird when a person writing material makes a guide for it.

There's two of them right now, one to let you swap a discipline, and one to ease the pain of multiclassing by boosting your IL. Also toying with one that gives a single 1st level strike, boost or counter to a creature at permanent IL 1. I thought it might be a nice little surprise for DMs to slap on to monsters or something. *shrug*

I have a whole list of things I won't be writing guides about, it's in the first post of my guides megathread. If someone else wants to come along and write other guides that don't make you feel weird they can, I'm not claiming exclusive rights to them at all.


What happens if a Knight Disciple's Divine Interception or Righteous Sanctuary has the movement interrupted (such as by a readied trip, a pit trap on the chosen route, or an invisible enemy between the two)?

Their movement stops. If you can't physically reach the area you're trying to reach, you can't get there.


There was talk about new Warlord gambits, was there any gambits to help you jump across chandeliers or other hopping around?

Edit: Also is there any support for gun and sword? Thrashing Dragon specifies melee, but could I shoot someone point blank?

I don't know about new gambits, but gun and sword has a little support with the Privateer, and will likely see more with the gunslinger archetype.


Sorry to continuously come back and nitpick on things, but I wanted to raise a point about Thrashing Dragon Whirlwind's wording:



First thing: this is not using the two-weapon fighting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Two-Weapon-Fighting)combat action, so you don't take penalties to the attacks as normal. May or may not be intentional, I'm not sure... What's more important about that is that since it's not actually two-weapon fighting, it's not limited to the single offhand attack that you'd normally be limited to.

Admittedly, this isn't as terrifying as it could be, since Pathfinder only has a few things that really break it, only these:

Any one-handed weapon in the main hand
Any one-handed weapon in the off hand
A spiked gauntlet on each hand
A dwarven boulder helmet
Spiked armor


These are all weapons you're wielding, and so, it's six attacks to everything in melee (seven if you're a monk, since they treat Unarmed Strikes as manufactured), with no TWF penalties since you're not actually doing anything to trigger them through the two-weapon fighting rules (unless there's an important FAQ I missed; but even then, just put the offhand as a light weapon and it's back down to the normal penalties). I feel like this is probably unintended, but not super-broken if you're sticking to vanilla Pathfinder + DSP stuff.

However, not all groups do that, and I feel like the feat is incredibly dangerous in some situations, for example, in 3.p, which my group generally plays, you can do this:


One-handed in main hand
One-handed in off hand
Two spiked gauntlets
Armor spikes
Braid blade
Mouthpick weapon
Two elbow blades
Two boot blades
Two knee blades
Two sleeve blades
Two weighted sleeves
Possibly others I don't remember off the top of my head


As awesome and immensely cool it is to have a feat that turns you into Paimon, I feel like that's proooobably not something that's along the lines of the other feats, and I feel like the intent of the weapon was to be TWF whirlwind attack, and not "you're now a dancer of death".

My proposed rewording would be this:



Or something. Not entirely sure if that's the best wording, but I'd rewrite it to not allow asshats like me to think of silly abuses of the feat.

That is a big issue. Thank you for catching that. The intent was basically to be Whirlwind Attack that 1) wasn't terrible and 2) worked with TWF. I think I'll steal your suggested rewrite, if you don't mind.

[Snowbluff]

There's two of them right now, one to let you swap a discipline, and one to ease the pain of multiclassing by boosting your IL. Also toying with one that gives a single 1st level strike, boost or counter to a creature at permanent IL 1. I thought it might be a nice little surprise for DMs to slap on to monsters or something. *shrug*
Well, +1 IL to a stance would be interesting. The first level stances tend to scale, so with a dip and the trait you could have something nice. :smallsmile:


I have a whole list of things I won't be writing guides about, it's in the first post of my guides megathread. If someone else wants to come along and write other guides that don't make you feel weird they can, I'm not claiming exclusive rights to them at all.
Oh, okay.

Now talk to Nalin! :smalltongue:

[CyanEyed]

That is a big issue. Thank you for catching that. The intent was basically to be Whirlwind Attack that 1) wasn't terrible and 2) worked with TWF. I think I'll steal your suggested rewrite, if you don't mind.

How will this rewrite affect my 4-armed slayer stance aegis? Will he still be able to swing all 4 greatswords?

EDIT: Also have I pointed out yet that slayer stance in no way limits you to discipline weapons? Because it doesn't.

[Elricaltovilla]

How will this rewrite affect my 4-armed slayer stance aegis? Will he still be able to swing all 4 greatswords?

Yes he would still be able to attack with all 4 weapons.

[Vhaidara]

EDIT: Also have I pointed out yet that slayer stance in no way limits you to discipline weapons? Because it doesn't.

As things currently stand, it doesn't need to. Piercing Thunder has a discipline weapons only clause.

[TheEmperor]

I should probably show and tell my experiences with the Privateer, which I threw onto a Warlord for a piratey campaign. Now, I went the cutlass and pistol route, because that seemed fun, and went to town.
The DM LOVED it's recovery mechanic, and so did I! The cheesy lines I blatantly stole from a well known pirate comedy movie series (guess the name?) were fun to throw around.

Now, I was essentially wrecking combats, thanks to good rolls, and being third level meant my additional d6s of damage began to kill just about anything I came across. Now, I would PROBABLY have thought it op were it not for the insane miss chances I had, and how lucky I got to hit majority of the time.

Plenty of AoO's taken too.

Probably the most useless review so far, but I give it a 9/10 anyways.

[CyanEyed]

As things currently stand, it doesn't need to. Piercing Thunder has a discipline weapons only clause.

And here I was thinking there was even the slightest benefit to using it over the style feat. I guess not.

[squiggit]

but gun and sword has a little support with the Privateer
Ish. They get to reduce some penalties for fighting with gun and sword, but reloading in a sword and pistol style is even harder than reloading dual pistols and they can't take advantage of their TWFing with maneuvers because an offhand pistol isn't a valid thrashing dragon weapon. Until you get Thrashing Dragon Pounce at least, since it doesn't specify a weapon type for the offhand.

So you're probably better off going dual (double barreled) pistols with gun twirling, sitting in a nice stance (piercing rays, solar hailstorm, hooded killer, outer sphere, etc) and full attacking.

[ErrantX]

And here I was thinking there was even the slightest benefit to using it over the style feat. I guess not.

I'm writing archetypes at the moment between working full time and being a full time parent. Cut me a little slack friend, I'll get to fixing the stance as soon as I can. :smallwink:

-X

[Vhaidara]

I'm writing archetypes at the moment between working full time and being a full time parent. Cut me a little slack friend, I'll get to fixing the stance as soon as I can. :smallwink:

-X

But Chris, I thought this was your baby :smalltongue:

[Tempestfury]

I'm writing archetypes at the moment between working full time and being a full time parent. Cut me a little slack friend, I'll get to fixing the stance as soon as I can. :smallwink:

-X

*Dramatic Gasp* Other Priorities?! What Blasphemy is this! Everyone knows that creating material for games is the most important thing in the world! How dare you commit sacrilege before the very gods themselves! Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson have ordered to for you be burned for your sins heathen, and forced to play the temple of elemental evil FOREVER!

Is that over the top enough? :P

[ErrantX]

But Chris, I thought this was your baby :smalltongue:

*laughs* I was describing Path of War the other day to a friend of mine as an unruly child I keep getting called into school over because it doesn't behave itself and my parenting is obviously faulty.


*Dramatic Gasp* Other Priorities?! What Blasphemy is this! Everyone knows that creating material for games is the most important thing in the world! How dare you commit sacrilege before the very gods themselves! Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson have ordered to for you be burned for your sins heathen, and forced to play the temple of elemental evil FOREVER!

Is that over the top enough? :P

I shall consider this noted and I will sacrifice my wife and child to Gygax and Arneson respectively as immediately as possible.

-X

[CyanEyed]

Also, slayer's stance incorrectly claims to be level 3 in the long description.

[ErrantX]

Piercing Thunder Style [Combat, Style]
Your motions with your spear are agile and graceful.
Prerequisites: 1 or more Piercing Lance stances, Ride 3 ranks
Benefit: You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with weapons from the pole arm or spear weapon groups that are sized for you, even though if they are not light weapons.

Slayer’s Stance
Piercing Thunder (Stance)
Level: 3
Prerequisites: One Piercing Thunder maneuver
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance

By hefting your powerful weapons in either hand, you have learned how to use the weapon’s size and momentum to their best effect and you may use them one handed. While in this stance, you may use weapons that are normally two-handed as one-handed weapons and fight with them as if you possessed the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. These weapons count as one-handed weapons. If you possess the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, then you may treat these weapons as if they were light weapons (reducing the penalties further and making them usable with feats such as Weapon Finesse or Deadly Agility) and act as if you possessed the Improved Two Weapon Fighting feat (or Greater Two-Weapon Fighting if you possessed Improved Two-Weapon Fighting as well). You do not need to be wielding two (or more) weapons to be receiving these benefits.
Special Note: If you possess the armament shield class feature (see Zweihander Sentinel warder archetype in Path of War) and are using this stance, the benefits of armament shield only apply to from the weapon you are wielding in your primary hand.


Stance of the Thunderbrand
Piercing Thunder (Stance)
Level: 5
Prerequisites: Two Piercing Thunder maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance

With both hands on the haft of your weapon, you maintain your focus on the principles of battle while maximizing the effectiveness of your weapon, keeping enemy attacks at bay. While wielding a discipline weapon, you deal an additional 4d6 points of damage and gain a +4 dodge bonus to AC, and gain a +5-ft increase to your weapon’s reach.


Deadly Thunder Lancer’s Stance
Piercing Thunder (Stance)
Level: 8
Prerequisites: 3 Piercing Thunder maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance

Mastery of the spear and its many styles comes to you as you reach the pinnacle of the Piercing Thunder discipline. While in this stance, you gain the benefits of the Spring Attack feat (you need not meet the prerequisites of this feat to use its abilities) and may initiate maneuvers as part of the attack made using Spring Attack. Additionally, you also add your initiation modifier to attack and damage rolls, Acrobatics checks to jump or tumble, and attempts to confirm critical threats while in this stance.

These are some changes to Piercing Thunder and to the initial style feat. Enjoy.

-X

[Swaoeaeieu]

These are some changes to Piercing Thunder and to the initial style feat. Enjoy.

-X

But why does the style feat still need ranks in Ride? wasn't the skill changed to something else for PT?
Also, now you can use finesse with polearms. Shouldn't it say feats like weapon finesse so deadly agility counts as well?


p.s. I just got into a game that is going to allow Path of War, now i just need to cinvince the DM to allow this playtest material and Phalanx is greenlight! woohoo

[ErrantX]

But why does the style feat still need ranks in Ride? wasn't the skill changed to something else for PT?
Also, now you can use finesse with polearms. Shouldn't it say feats like weapon finesse so deadly agility counts as well?


p.s. I just got into a game that is going to allow Path of War, now i just need to cinvince the DM to allow this playtest material and Phalanx is greenlight! woohoo

Fixed the skill thing. Missed that one.


Deadly Agility (Combat)
You have learned how to use your agility to greater purpose in battle.
Prerequisite(s): Weapon Finesse, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit(s): You may add your Dexterity modifier in place of your Strength modifier when wielding a light weapon or a weapon that gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat (such as the rapier) when determining additional damage inflicted upon a successful attack.
This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is not reduced for off-hand weapons.

Should work regardless.

I'd love to hear about your results with it!

-X

[Dusk Eclipse]

Slayer’s Stance
Piercing Thunder (Stance)
Level: 3
Prerequisites: One Piercing Thunder maneuver
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance

By hefting your powerful weapons in either hand, you have learned how to use the weapon’s size and momentum to their best effect and you may use them one handed. While in this stance, you may use weapons that are normally two-handed as one-handed weapons and fight with them as if you possessed the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. These weapons count as one-handed weapons. If you possess the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, then you may treat these weapons as if they were light weapons (reducing the penalties further and making them usable with feats such as Weapon Finesse or Deadly Agility) and act as if you possessed the Improved Two Weapon Fighting feat (or Greater Two-Weapon Fighting if you possessed Improved Two-Weapon Fighting as well). You do not need to be wielding two (or more) weapons to be receiving these benefits.
Special Note: If you possess the armament shield class feature (see Zweihander Sentinel warder archetype in Path of War) and are using this stance, the benefits of armament shield only apply to from the weapon you are wielding in your primary hand.

Could you explain the intention behind the bold part? I'm assuming it is meant to let people who want to use spear+shield or even spear+free hand (magus and other gishes most likely), but some clarification would be nice.

[ErrantX]

Could you explain the intention behind the bold part? I'm assuming it is meant to let people who want to use spear+shield or even spear+free hand (magus and other gishes most likely), but some clarification would be nice.

That's precisely what I was going for Dusk. It was there to not limit you if you wanted wield a spear and punch someone with the other hand, wield a sword in the other hand (*cough*Keledrath*cough*), have a shield or a pistol, or hold a beer (because we've all been there, amirite?).

-X

[Jurai]

Sorry to continuously come back and nitpick on things, but I wanted to raise a point about Thrashing Dragon Whirlwind's wording:



First thing: this is not using the two-weapon fighting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Two-Weapon-Fighting)combat action, so you don't take penalties to the attacks as normal. May or may not be intentional, I'm not sure... What's more important about that is that since it's not actually two-weapon fighting, it's not limited to the single offhand attack that you'd normally be limited to.

Admittedly, this isn't as terrifying as it could be, since Pathfinder only has a few things that really break it, only these:

Any one-handed weapon in the main hand
Any one-handed weapon in the off hand
A spiked gauntlet on each hand
A dwarven boulder helmet
Spiked armor


These are all weapons you're wielding, and so, it's six attacks to everything in melee (seven if you're a monk, since they treat Unarmed Strikes as manufactured), with no TWF penalties since you're not actually doing anything to trigger them through the two-weapon fighting rules (unless there's an important FAQ I missed; but even then, just put the offhand as a light weapon and it's back down to the normal penalties). I feel like this is probably unintended, but not super-broken if you're sticking to vanilla Pathfinder + DSP stuff.

However, not all groups do that, and I feel like the feat is incredibly dangerous in some situations, for example, in 3.p, which my group generally plays, you can do this:


One-handed in main hand
One-handed in off hand
Two spiked gauntlets
Armor spikes
Braid blade
Mouthpick weapon
Two elbow blades
Two boot blades
Two knee blades
Two sleeve blades
Two weighted sleeves
Possibly others I don't remember off the top of my head


As awesome and immensely cool it is to have a feat that turns you into Paimon, I feel like that's proooobably not something that's along the lines of the other feats, and I feel like the intent of the weapon was to be TWF whirlwind attack, and not "you're now a dancer of death".

My proposed rewording would be this:



Or something. Not entirely sure if that's the best wording, but I'd rewrite it to not allow asshats like me to think of silly abuses of the feat.

What about Kasatha and a few other races that have four arms?

[CyanEyed]

Piercing Thunder Style [Combat, Style]
Your motions with your spear are agile and graceful.
Prerequisites: 1 or more Piercing Lance stances, Ride 3 ranks
Benefit: You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with weapons from the pole arm or spear weapon groups that are sized for you, even though if they are not light weapons.

Does the bolded text preclude the use of abilities that allow you to use larger weapons, like Powerful Build?

[CyanEyed]

What about Kasatha and a few other races that have four arms?

Check the Special text; It allows the use of all available arms.

[ErrantX]

Does the bolded text preclude the use of abilities that allow you to use larger weapons, like Powerful Build?

That is wording lifted right off of the Elven Curveblade, the most appropriate equivalent to what this feat allows. I would say that if it's not sized for you, then you're not able to finesse it due to being too large but I'd look for an official Paizo ruling on that to be sure. The wording is theirs.

-X

[Vhaidara]

The crit confirmation bonus still feels a bit random on DTLS. Also, it still doesn't work with any of the charging maneuvers, which seems odd, since that's about half of them.


That's precisely what I was going for Dusk. It was there to not limit you if you wanted wield a spear and punch someone with the other hand, wield a sword in the other hand (*cough*Keledrath*cough*), have a shield or a pistol, or hold a beer (because we've all been there, amirite?).

-X

:biggrin:

[ErrantX]

The crit confirmation bonus still feels a bit random on DTLS. Also, it still doesn't work with any of the charging maneuvers, which seems odd, since that's about half of them.



:biggrin:

Deadly Thunder Lancer’s Stance
Piercing Thunder (Stance)
Level: 8
Prerequisites: 3 Piercing Thunder maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance

Mastery of the spear and its many styles comes to you as you reach the pinnacle of the Piercing Thunder discipline. While in this stance, you gain the benefits of the Spring Attack feat (you need not meet the prerequisites of this feat to use its abilities) and may initiate maneuvers as part of the attack made using Spring Attack. This specifically includes maneuvers that require the initiator to perform a charge attack; if they have movement left to make they may continue to move after performing the attack portion of the charge maneuver. Additionally, you also add your initiation modifier to attack and damage rolls, Acrobatics checks to jump or tumble, and attempts to confirm critical threats while in this stance.


---

How's that look?

-X

[Vhaidara]

Much better.

[Vhaidara]

So, looking over some stuff for a theoretical character build using Mystic, it bothers me that Aurora Fist loses Perception. I get that it's the Solar Wind skill, and that it loses Solar Wind, but Perception is a general purpose skill, not just a discipline skill

[Snowbluff]

So, looking over some stuff for a theoretical character build using Mystic, it bothers me that Aurora Fist loses Perception. I get that it's the Solar Wind skill, and that it loses Solar Wind, but Perception is a general purpose skill, not just a discipline skill

Agreed. Of course, it's easy to fix via traits until they fix it. :smallsmile:

[Vhaidara]

Agreed. Of course, it's easy to fix via traits until they fix it. :smallsmile:

Not as easy as you'd think. The only non-campaign trait that gives Perception as a class skill is Seeker, and that locks up your Social slot, which includes a lot of my favorite traits (Signature Moves, Bruising Intellect, and Student of Philosophy)

[Snowbluff]

Not as easy as you'd think. The only non-campaign trait that gives Perception as a class skill is Seeker, and that locks up your Social slot, which includes a lot of my favorite traits (Signature Moves, Bruising Intellect, and Student of Philosophy)

Campaign traits, champagne traits. :smalltongue:

[Vhaidara]

Campaign traits, champagne traits. :smalltongue:

You'd be amazed. I don't think I've encountered a GM yet who would allow a campaign trait outside of its assigned AP.

[squiggit]

So, looking over some stuff for a theoretical character build using Mystic, it bothers me that Aurora Fist loses Perception. I get that it's the Solar Wind skill, and that it loses Solar Wind, but Perception is a general purpose skill, not just a discipline skill

I'd say this is kind of a fundamental quirk with discipline trading in general. Even quirkier when you have overlapping disciplines (a stalker trading out broken blade loses acrobatics even though he still has thrashing dragon).

IMO Ultimate War (or whatever) should give each class its own, unique skill list and add a clause somewhere saying "classes gain the associated skill of every discipline they have access to as class skills".

[TheEmperor]

Soooooooooooo

Apparently that Mystic build I had going? Can't exactly use it, since there are no pbp's recruiting that allow the playtest stuff.

Looks like the Empy's Utterly Useless and Unhelpful Mystic ReviewTM COPYRIGHTED will have to wait a while.

[Taveena]

Personally, I'd dispose of discipline skills granting class skills entirely and just make having a Discipline grant you an untyped +3 bonus to the skill.

[AGrinningCat]

You'd be amazed. I don't think I've encountered a GM yet who would allow a campaign trait outside of its assigned AP.

Oyi, I resent that.

Weird thought, as I'm turning my attention to the Zealot. What if instead of the names 'Creation' and 'Destruction', the names where changed to reflect an active tense? 'To Create' or 'To Destroy'.

[squiggit]

Personally, I'd dispose of discipline skills granting class skills entirely and just make having a Discipline grant you an untyped +3 bonus to the skill.

So.. basically the same thing as making them a class skill only stackable? I dunno. Could end up with some pretty silly things, like broken blade, thrashing dragon and piercing thunder on a stalker to give them +12 to acrobatics.

[Taveena]

Same source. Wouldn't stack. It'd just be like a class skill bonus, except you don't actually have to worry about the mess of removing and adding class skills like Perception or the like.

[Elricaltovilla]

I think the easiest way to handle it is just to include a general rule that says "If the discipline skill of your disciplines is not a class skill, it becomes one so long as you know at least one maneuver from the discipline." And then have all the classes just have their own list of skills. There'd be some overlap, but that's already the case since we have multiple disciplines tied to the same skill.

[Vhaidara]

Same source. Wouldn't stack. It'd just be like a class skill bonus, except you don't actually have to worry about the mess of removing and adding class skills like Perception or the like.

Eh, you still end up with a level 1 character pulling +7 before stat mods. That's huge, given what some discipline skills are (Perception godskill, Stealth, Acrobatics)

[MilleniaAntares]

Also, a random question about Combat Patrol and the Warder's version of the ability. They specify that you can move as a part of AOOs that an opponent provokes; does this mean that you can use the ability to foil charges, by have a reach weapon and moving in a way so that you are 90 degrees from the charge path when you make your attack of opportunity as soon as he steps into your 20'+ threatened area?
If you are a level 10+ warder - and thus you treat squares within your melee reach as difficult terrain - or are using Stand Still (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/stand-still-combat---final), then you may stop a charge regardless of however many degrees you are in relation to the charge path.

[NineThePuma]

Eh, you still end up with a level 1 character pulling +7 before stat mods. That's huge, given what some discipline skills are (Perception godskill, Stealth, Acrobatics)

"Bonuses of the same type don't stack" applies. Tav's suggesting that instead of having the skill be a class skill it gets the bonus as though it were if it is not. If it is a class skill, the bonus doesn't get applied.

[Milo v3]

I think the easiest way to handle it is just to include a general rule that says "If the discipline skill of your disciplines is not a class skill, it becomes one so long as you know at least one maneuver from the discipline." And then have all the classes just have their own list of skills. There'd be some overlap, but that's already the case since we have multiple disciplines tied to the same skill.

This would be great.

[Taveena]

I think the easiest way to handle it is just to include a general rule that says "If the discipline skill of your disciplines is not a class skill, it becomes one so long as you know at least one maneuver from the discipline." And then have all the classes just have their own list of skills. There'd be some overlap, but that's already the case since we have multiple disciplines tied to the same skill.

This is probably easier, yes.

[squiggit]

"Bonuses of the same type don't stack" applies. Tav's suggesting that instead of having the skill be a class skill it gets the bonus as though it were if it is not. If it is a class skill, the bonus doesn't get applied.

Then that's just a wordier way of saying it's a class skill, because that's what a class skill does.

[Kymera]

I think the easiest way to handle it is just to include a general rule that says "If the discipline skill of your disciplines is not a class skill, it becomes one so long as you know at least one maneuver from the discipline." And then have all the classes just have their own list of skills. There'd be some overlap, but that's already the case since we have multiple disciplines tied to the same skill.

This. Definitely this. It's simple, and it solves every one of the problems with the current method (at least, all the ones I know of), with no known new problems introduced.

[TheEmperor]

Wait, why not add something along the lines of "you gain a bonus of 1/4 your IL to any discipline skills you may have, minimum 1."

Or something along those lines.

Would that seem like a bad idea?

[deuxhero]

Their movement stops. If you can't physically reach the area you're trying to reach, you can't get there.

So trip doesn't even get to crawl any remaining distance it has?

[Forrestfire]

Oh yeah, it occurs to me to mention (since I'm not sure if I did in the thread, although it was part of a long rant to Gareth about Primal Fury a while ago) that the problem with tons of weapons and Thrashing Dragon Whirlwind applies to every single one of Primal Fury's Frenzy Strike maneuvers.

I know that Primal Fury is being fixed at some point, so I'd like it on record that that's a bit of an issue.

[Elricaltovilla]

So trip doesn't even get to crawl any remaining distance it has?

Reread the second sentence of what you quoted from me.

[deuxhero]

I seem to have forgotten that prone changes movement entirely instead of applying a penalty. Sorry.

If a target of one of the above mentioned effects is hit by something that reduces his speed or makes movement cost extra (such as a readied attack with a legbreaker weapon or being knocked prone while having the Fast Crawl feat) does he continue moving till his speed runs out, or does he stop as soon as he is no longer able to finish?

[Azoth]

On the subject of reloading a firearm while TWFing. I found a fun little work around. If you switch to Phantom Sun Stance you can full reload without provoking or sheathing/dropping a weapon as a move action on a revolver.

Then you just switch back to your combat stance the next round. There is no duration to how long the phantom ammunition lasts in your gun even if you switch out of the stance.

It eats two swifts and a move, but your standard is free to use strikes and you don't lose your threatened area.

[The Glyphstone]

I think the easiest way to handle it is just to include a general rule that says "If the discipline skill of your disciplines is not a class skill, it becomes one so long as you know at least one maneuver from the discipline." And then have all the classes just have their own list of skills. There'd be some overlap, but that's already the case since we have multiple disciplines tied to the same skill.

It would make Advanced Study slightly more powerful if used to select a non-class maneuver/stance. But that's not a big deal.

[Tempestfury]

You know, despite the fact that the Privateer has this Sword & Pistol support, I actually think that the Bushi might be able to do the entire Sword & Pistol thing better due to the free Quick Draw & Mixed combat. Now you'll never have any problems with reloading every again. Through I wonder if you'll be able to threaten enemies with Snap Shot whilst having a sheated pistol...

[Powerdork]

It would make Advanced Study slightly more powerful if used to select a non-class maneuver/stance. But that's not a big deal.

You could replace "know a maneuver from" with "have access to (or take Martial Training in)" if you're worried about random skill bonuses (or perhaps make it a conpetence bonus). However, I think the class skill approach could be mechanically elegant and useful enough.

[Anlashok]

Why isn't there a bard archetype with Mithral Current?

Unrelated. Is PoW:E going to have any material for Craft(glassmaking) options? There's currently no support at all for this skill in first party pathfinder content but it's a relevant skill for PoW:E.

[Elricaltovilla]

Why isn't there a bard archetype with Mithral Current?

Unrelated. Is PoW:E going to have any material for Craft(glassmaking) options? There's currently no support at all for this skill in first party pathfinder content but it's a relevant skill for PoW:E.

Bard Archetype is under construction.

Shattered Mirror uses Craft(any) not Craft(glassmaking).

[Anlashok]

Shattered Mirror uses Craft(any) not Craft(glassmaking).

Playtest doc says glassmaking, painting, sculpting or sketching, not any.

[Lord_Gareth]

Playtest doc says glassmaking, painting, sculpting or sketching, not any.

This is accurate. It was originally (any) but internal dev wanted something more specific. Something about not liking even the possibility of underwater basketweaving or something, it was honestly so long ago that I no longer remember who asked me to change it or why.

[Vhaidara]

This is accurate. It was originally (any) but internal dev wanted something more specific. Something about not liking even the possibility of underwater basketweaving or something, it was honestly so long ago that I no longer remember who asked me to change it or why.

Or, from a more abusable point, Craft (Alchemy). Especially since alchemists can pick up maneuvers via discoveries as well as feats.

[Elricaltovilla]

This is accurate. It was originally (any) but internal dev wanted something more specific. Something about not liking even the possibility of underwater basketweaving or something, it was honestly so long ago that I no longer remember who asked me to change it or why.

I think craft (underwater basketweaving) should be allowed specifically.

[CyanEyed]

Playtest doc says glassmaking, painting, sculpting or sketching, not any.

I prefer to think of it as Craft(Useless)

[Anlashok]

This is accurate. It was originally (any) but internal dev wanted something more specific. Something about not liking even the possibility of underwater basketweaving or something, it was honestly so long ago that I no longer remember who asked me to change it or why.

I'm not sure why that'd even be a big deal. If painting a picture of a tree makes you better at fighting, why is weaving a basket making you better at fighting be too nonsensical?

My big issue right now is that it's literally the closest thing to a skill-tax you can find. Those crafting feats have no functionality whatsoever on their own. Which seems... bad.


Or, from a more abusable point, Craft (Alchemy). Especially since alchemists can pick up maneuvers via discoveries as well as feats.

That sounds more like just plain functional than abusable.

[Vhaidara]

I'm not sure why that'd even be a big deal. If painting a picture of a tree makes you better at fighting, why is weaving a basket making you better at fighting be too nonsensical?

My big issue right now is that it's literally the closest thing to a skill-tax you can find. Those crafting feats have no functionality whatsoever on their own. Which seems... bad.

Not really. Mithral Current's Perform (Dance) is about as useful, and it is a very similar case to this: It isn't used for most maneuvers, but it is on some of the strongest.
1. Left Handed Strike: Craft check to deny shield bonus and deal an extra 1d6. Not a great maneuver at all.
2. Obsidian Razor Style: Add ranks in Craft to damage for a round. This is great. Any investment you can give it is pretty worthwhile
3. Obsidian Sidestep: Craft in place of a save. Again, even with just 2 ranks, you end up with 5+Int to replace a saving throw. That's pretty insane for a 2 skill point investment
4. Double Team: Deal double your Craft check, as BONUS DAMAGE. Level 7 maneuver, level 13 character, that's 32+2x Int mod+ double the d20 result
5. Obsidian Negation: Counterspell with a craft check. Totes worth
6. Shattered Mirror Strike: Craft vs CMD to force full concealment and a 50% spell failure chance


That sounds more like just plain functional than abusable.

Look at Double Team again. Now add twice your alchemist level to it.

[TheEmperor]

So, for a Bannerman Warlord, what kind of magical Banner would work out well? Like, aside from the Flagbearer feat benefits, and then the Inspiring Banner's bonuses.

Preferably something under 25000

[Powerdork]

Retraining is based on character level. If it was based on class level or initiator level it would say so. So at warder 1/aegis 3 you'd retrain one maneuver at IL 4 (2nd level maneuvers)

Sorry to bring up this bit of stuff from the old thread, but someone is wrong on the internet!


Note that there are a number of effects and prerequisites that rely on the character's level or Hit Dice. Such effects are always based on the total number of levels or Hit Dice a character possesses, not just those from one class. The exception to this is class abilities, most of which are based on the total number of class levels that a character possesses of that particular class.

You'd need to change the text that explicitly says "Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even numbered [stalker/warder/warlord] level after that, he can choose to learn a new maneuver in place of one he already knows" to base it off of character level instead of [stalker/warder/warlord] level.

[CGNefarious]

Wasn't there a third Harbinger archetype whose focus was (somehow) adding more mobility? Is that still a thing or was it scrapped for some reason? I can't seem to find it in the OP.

[The Glyphstone]

Not that I remember. Just the Crimson Countess and Ravenlord.

[stack]

There was. Something about claiming creatures by moving past them. Can't recall the name, it was linked in the old thread.

[RedOndjage]

So, I made a viking themed Path of War archetype. Feel free to critique it here:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?407808-The-Shield-Thane-a-Warlord-Archetype-for-PoW

[CGNefarious]

It was the Bleak Emissary. Took me forever to find it. Here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VwrqOihp5Nb_OVtMKpA2so2vL3bITx5hLZUSGQm2pUk/edit) is the link for anyone interested.

[DarkSonic1337]

It would be okay to houserule Craft (gemcutting) for working with shattered mirror right? (or is there some gemcutting thing that's actually super abusable that I don't know about?)

[Eox]

Look at Double Team again. Now add twice your alchemist level to it.

NOT SO!


When using Craft (alchemy) to create an alchemical item, an alchemist gains a competence bonus equal to his class level on the Craft (alchemy) check.

Unless you finangle a way to create a vial of alchemists fire via hitting a dude, Alchemists are just as good as any other class.

[Swaoeaeieu]

somewhere in the previous thread, someone made a revieuw of piercing thunder. Can someone link me to that post? i can't find it anymore...

[Doomeye56]

Yeah bleak emissary should probable be added to the first post. It was part of the Trio of Archtypes that are done by a different PoW class author then the one that made the class along with Void Prophet for the Zealot and a un-reavled Mystic archtype

[Dgrin]

somewhere in the previous thread, someone made a revieuw of piercing thunder. Can someone link me to that post? i can't find it anymore...

Here you go, mate! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19018297&postcount=1375)

[Swaoeaeieu]

Here you go, mate! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19018297&postcount=1375)

thanks friend.

[Vhaidara]

Unless you finangle a way to create a vial of alchemists fire via hitting a dude, Alchemists are just as good as any other class.

Wait, Paizo actually considered the possibility of Craft being used for things other than Crafting? I call hax.


somewhere in the previous thread, someone made a revieuw of piercing thunder. Can someone link me to that post? i can't find it anymore...

Well, it's already been linked, but thank you for valuing my opinion enough to want my review. I'm planning on doing a full set of reviews for the Expanded disciplines, and for the published ones (once we get some kind of errata document)

[Vhaidara]

So, I'm going through and doing my own reviews of all of the Expanded maneuvers, and I think I found an error with Festering Curse

Festering Curse
Cursed Razor (Strike) [Curse]
Level: 5
Prerequisites: 2 Cursed Razor maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Melee attack
Target: Creature struck
Duration: Special (see text)

This vicious strike afflicts its victims with a curse of rot. When you initiate this strike, make a melee attack. If the attack hits, it deals normal weapon damage plus 4d6 additional damage, and its victim becomes cursed for a number of rounds equal to your initiation modifier. At the beginning of each round thereafter the victim must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC 15 + your initiation modifier) or suffer 2d6 additional damage as its body begins to decay and slough off in chunks.

The bolded section makes no mention of the effect ending when they stop being cursed, just every round after being hit. And the Fortitude Save doesn't end the effect, just negates it for the round. So, as written, this appears to be a "No Save, Just Die (slowly)"

EDIT: Also, Razor has a 7th level stance. Wat.

You guys do need to decide on the Stance levels. Looking over my PoW PDF, they're kind of all over the place.

I think that 2 first, then one each at 3rd, 6th, and 8th should be entirely functional.

[Elricaltovilla]

The Mystic Guide has been released. You can find it in the Path of War guides thread.

[Tempestfury]

You know, I just found a horrible, horrible combination of abilities, which admittedly you need to be very high level to be, but is extremely powerful and devastating. Admittedly, it does need one or two 3.5 feats in order to get is full powerful... but its absolutely devastating.

[Ilorin Lorati]

If it needs 3.5 feats, it's just about irrelevant to the discussion. How strong is it without 3.5 content?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Not necesarily, after all there are people who play 3.P, granted that shouldn't be the base assumption in this particular thread, but I don't think it is completely irrelevant.

[MilleniaAntares]

You know, I just found a horrible, horrible combination of abilities, which admittedly you need to be very high level to be, but is extremely powerful and devastating. Admittedly, it does need one or two 3.5 feats in order to get is full powerful... but its absolutely devastating.
So, what is it?