Non-Anti Undead Cleric

[Milo v3]

Any idea what I could replace Turn Undead with for a cleric who's god is fine with undead or is pro-undead?

[RealCheese]

Your cleric will already have alternatives, there are other things to use channel divinity on than turnings, every domain has its own options.

[Milo v3]

Your cleric will already have alternatives, there are other things to use channel divinity on than turnings, every domain has its own options.

I'd still rather not have two class features, Channel Divinity:Turn Undead and Destroy Undead, that run opposite to my characters flavour.

[Naanomi]

Even pro undead types know that your living impaired buddies can get out of control and abilities to keep you and living allies safe while they calm down or you can escape is nice

[Slipperychicken]

I'm AFB, but wasn't there a death domain in the DMG for clerics who like undead and are presumed to be villainous? IIRC there might have been something like rebuke/control undead in there.

[Milo v3]

I'm AFB, but wasn't there a death domain in the DMG for clerics who like undead and are presumed to be villainous? IIRC there might have been something like rebuke/control undead in there.
Thanks I'll check that out.

EDIT: Hmm... Its useful for the character, though unfortunately still retains the turn and destroy undead.


Even pro undead types know that your living impaired buddies can get out of control and abilities to keep you and living allies safe while they calm down or you can escape is nice
Irrelevant, having the anti-undead abilities don't make sense with the god.

[Gavran]

Irrelevant, having the anti-undead abilities don't make sense with the god.
I don't want to argue, but I'm curious - what kind of pro-undead god would it not make sense to have spell specifically affecting the undead for? It's not like Turn Undead cleanses corpses of desecration and frees their souls to fly away to paradise with a nice packed lunch and a kiss on the forehead.

The only thing I can think of is a tenet along the lines of "Thou shalt not interfere with the doings of the sacred Unliving" which seems... impractical. It's not like Elven Gods ever have "You can never inconvenience a fellow Elf" laws.

[Milo v3]

I don't want to argue, but I'm curious - what kind of pro-undead god would it not make sense to have spell specifically affecting the undead for? It's not like Turn Undead cleanses corpses of desecration and frees their souls to fly away to paradise with a nice packed lunch and a kiss on the forehead.

The only thing I can think of is a tenet along the lines of "Thou shalt not interfere with the doings of the sacred Unliving" which seems... impractical. It's not like Elven Gods ever have "You can never inconvenience a fellow Elf" laws.

It simply doesn't make sense to me or my players to have the god who aims to have undead spread everywhere to grant every priest anti-undead powers with no Pro-Undead use.

It'd probably be fine if it was a spell, because then I wouldn't be stuck with two useless class features.

[Gavran]

It simply doesn't make sense to me or my players to have the god who aims to have undead spread everywhere to grant every priest anti-undead powers with no Pro-Undead use.

It'd probably be fine if it was a spell, because then I wouldn't have to go around with useless class feature.

Is the god Chaotic by any chance? When I think god of undead I'm admittedly usually picturing something more Lawful, in which case having means to control the undead makes sense (to me at least.)

Well - I've never tried making any homebrew or anything - but why not go with Command Undead and mmm... Bolster Undead? Heal Undead (with a better name that eludes me right now >.>) Hell, "Repel the Living"?

[Flashy]

Hell, "Repel the Living"?

Channel Divinity: Revolting Utterance
You speak a series of guttural syllables charged with the essence of Divine Necromancy. Each beast (and plant creature?) that can see or hear you within 30 feet must make a wisdom saving throw...[Insert rest of Turn Undead]


Nature Unmade
Starting at 5th level when a creature fails its save against your Revolting Utterance feature the creature falls lifeless if its challenge rating is at or below a certain threshold, as shown in the Destroy Undead table.

[Giant2005]

Give the Cleric an ability that lets its healing spells heal the undead.

[Strill]

Just replace the "destroy" effect of Turn Undead with "control".

[Flashy]

Just replace the "destroy" effect of Turn Undead with "control".

That's waaaaay too powerful. The cleric is getting this ability at the same level they get first get access to animate dead. A 5th level cleric has a normal maximum of two CR 1/4 undead per day (and is burning both 3rd level slots for them); adding an option for an uncapped number of additional CR 1/4 minions with no stated parameters for loss of control is beyond crazy.

[Giant2005]

That's waaaaay too powerful. The cleric is getting this ability at the same level they get first get access to animate dead. A 5th level cleric has a normal maximum of two CR 1/4 undead per day (and is burning both 3rd level slots for them); adding an option for an uncapped number of additional CR 1/4 minions with no stated parameters for loss of control is beyond crazy.

One would assume that the ability would be exactly the same as the Oathbreaker's ability of the same name including its parameters and clauses for loss of control. However I too think that is too powerful compared to Turn Undead.

[Flashy]

One would assume that the ability would be exactly the same as the Oathbreaker's ability of the same name including its parameters and clauses for loss of control. However I too think that is too powerful compared to Turn Undead.

You're super right, I had forgotten that Oathbreakers already had a control undead ability.

[Strill]

Then make it only affect one target like the Paladin's ability.

[Maxilian]

Just go to the DMG (Pag 96) and there you will find the Death domain cleric, ask your DM if you could take that class, that will go pretty well with the type of Cleric you want

[Milo v3]

Just go to the DMG (Pag 96) and there you will find the Death domain cleric, ask your DM if you could take that class, that will go pretty well with the type of Cleric you want

The domain doesn't affect the actual issue since it only modifies the domain abilities rather than the turn undead and destroy undead abilities.

So far I think I'll use the above suggestion of making it affect beasts rather than undead.

[Slipperychicken]

Maybe you could get your DM to give you some perk like an extra spell slot in exchange for dumping turn/destroy undead?

[Yagyujubei]

One would assume that the ability would be exactly the same as the Oathbreaker's ability of the same name including its parameters and clauses for loss of control. However I too think that is too powerful compared to Turn Undead.

it isn't cuz you only get to pick 1 undead to control.

[Wartex1]

How about for Control Undead, you instead lower the Save DC by a certain amount per undead you have controlled via the feature?

[Yrnes]

You could allow a couple extra uses of/or different channel divinities, instead of homebrewing something new for it.

[Yagyujubei]

just take control undead...there's nothing wrong with it as is...just make sure you use it on a tougher undead enemy since it can work on ANY undead. you can straight up use it on a DRACOLICH and keep reasserting control every 24 hours. death knight, demilich, mummy lord, vampire, death tyrant? all possibilities.

you can enslave some serious firepower assuming your in a campaign that will give you the opportunity.

[Gavran]

just take control undead...there's nothing wrong with it as is [..] it can work on ANY undead. you can straight up use it on a DRACOLICH

Do you... really... not see how that could be a problem for some games?

Disclaimer: I don't have the DMG, I don't know how Control Undead works.

[Yagyujubei]

Do you... really... not see how that could be a problem for some games?

Disclaimer: I don't have the DMG, I don't know how Control Undead works.

obviously it could be a problem if the BBG is undead and you just took control of him, but at the same time most of the super high tier enemies have legendary resistance (or the DM giving it to them wouldnt be a stretch) and even if they don't they still have to fail the save.

just saying it's possible RAW to do this kinda thing, reign it in however you want in your own game, but I would say getting a vampire or mummy lord wouldnt be broken at the level you would have to be to actually pull it off.

you can only use it on enemies whose CR is equal to or less than your Pally level, so it will scale with you as you level.

[RealCheese]

I'd still rather not have two class features, Channel Divinity:Turn Undead and Destroy Undead, that run opposite to my characters flavour.

There are leagues of class features that does not fit every concept. Get over it.

[Gavran]

Gotcha. I was pretty sure there was some kind of CR-based restriction, but without the text I didn't want to outright assume so. Your post seemed to suggest to me that there wasn't such a restriction, which would of course be silly. But yeah, in that case I'm pretty much with you. It's probably better than Turn Undead but... -shrug- You can always tweak duration, save difficulty, CR restrictions - whatever you need to really.

[Yagyujubei]

Gotcha. I was pretty sure there was some kind of CR-based restriction, but without the text I didn't want to outright assume so. Your post seemed to suggest to me that there wasn't such a restriction, which would of course be silly. But yeah, in that case I'm pretty much with you. It's probably better than Turn Undead but... -shrug- You can always tweak duration, save difficulty, CR restrictions - whatever you need to really.

yeah all that stuff would be totally endgame, at early/mid levels it's actually pretty weak tbh since most of the really common undead stuff likely to show up in a campaign is either super low CR or very high CR.

plus most of the time you just get zombies or skeles as filler mobs, but even then it combos with animate undead from the oathbreaker spell list anyway, so you can have 2-4 zombies with you most all the time to benefit from your dmg arua.

[Milo v3]

There are leagues of class features that does not fit every concept. Get over it.
I know... Its one of the reasons I don't like 5e immensely. But, one of the ways you can get over an issue is to remove it. Thus this thread :smallannoyed:

[Flashy]

Gotcha. I was pretty sure there was some kind of CR-based restriction, but without the text I didn't want to outright assume so. Your post seemed to suggest to me that there wasn't such a restriction, which would of course be silly. But yeah, in that case I'm pretty much with you. It's probably better than Turn Undead but... -shrug- You can always tweak duration, save difficulty, CR restrictions - whatever you need to really.

Yeah, as is the restrictions are crazy unbalanced for a player class and ESPECIALLY for a class that could use the ability more than once per day. The power lets you control any undead with a CR lower than your player level for 24 hours, and I'm pretty dubious about letting 6th level clerics potentially wander around with multiple bone nagas/banshees/ghosts/wraiths.

[Naanomi]

I know... Its one of the reasons I don't like 5e immensely. But, one of the ways you can get over an issue is to remove it. Thus this thread :smallannoyed:
I get that but... If you are making a finesse fighter do you start shopping for replacements for your heavy armor proficiency? Or you just accept you are not going to be using it and move on? Not wanting to use a class feature (or whatever) for concept reasons can be admirable; shopping for replacements immediately comes across as gamey, even if that is not the intent

[Milo v3]

I get that but... If you are making a finesse fighter do you start shopping for replacements for your heavy armor proficiency? Or you just accept you are not going to be using it and move on? Not wanting to use a class feature (or whatever) for concept reasons can be admirable; shopping for replacements immediately comes across as gamey, even if that is not the intent

I believe there is a large difference between proficiency in armour and weapons that might not be used, and two whole class features that are a rather decent chuck of the classes identity that's been retained through the editions for no reason other than that it was previously in the game.

[goto124]

'Turn Living!'

[Milo v3]

'Turn Living!'

My players did consider that for a bit before they remembered that 80% of the games creatures are living :smalltongue:

[Flashy]

If I were going to change it to something that improved their ability to interact with the undead here's what I think I'd do.


Channel Divinity: Bolster Undead: You may expend one use of your channel divinity to grant all undead creatures within 30 ft of you advantage on wisdom saving throws, and any saving throw against fear. The effect lasts for one hour or until you use this ability again. Undead who do not remain within 30 feet of you lose the benefits of this effect.

Blessings of the Reanimator The Lord of the Risen allows you to bless his children, the better to annihilate the champions of the light. Undead subject to the effects of your Bolster Undead feature now substitute necrotic damage for the damage of their normal physical attacks. These attacks are considered magical for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.


The problem with bolster undead is that you're going to get it way before you have access to any actual undead. Perhaps it would be better to add that uncontrolled undead are also charmed by you for the duration?

[Slipperychicken]

'Turn Living!'

Maybe he can get a power to turn fey or something instead?