Telling time in the Underdark...

[fallensavior]

Let's suppose that a divine spellcaster ventures into the Underdark for a few weeks or months. Is there any way to determine the proper time of day to pray for spells? If not, should they get them anyway or are they just screwed?

I'm particularly interested in the lore answer of how the Drow and other subterranean societies deal with this issue.

It is reasonable to assume that there is at least one water clock in every drow settlement, but given the 1000gp price tag, it wouldn't available to the majority, and does not solve the issue of telling time whilst traversing the underdark. Are divine spellcasters just not able to prepare spells while travelling the Underdark?

[Rethmar]

In one of the Forgotten Realms Underdark drow cities, there is a large stalagmite that is enchanted with a ring of heat that rises from the bottom to the tip throughout the day.

I'm not sure that helps you as an adventuring divine caster, but it seems feasible to create a magical item to tell the time somehow.

[fallensavior]

In one of the Forgotten Realms Underdark drow cities, there is a large stalagmite that is enchanted with a ring of heat that rises from the bottom to the tip throughout the day.

I'm not sure that helps you as an adventuring divine caster, but it seems feasible to create a magical item to tell the time somehow.

Yeah, settlements shouldn't have a big problem with it.

A spell and/or magic item should be a reasonable solution, but I'm thinking economically it would need to cost at least 5000gp to not make the water clock obsolete...which if I reverse engineer the magic item creation guidelines indicates it should be at least a 2nd level spell if I go that route.

[WeaselGuy]

Depending on the level and the build of the cleric, you could always Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell a buff with a noticeable affect at whatever time of day you normally pray for your new daily spells. Then, 24 hours later when the buff ends, pray for your new spells and recast the buff. Requires 7 turning attempts though, so if you do the standard Human Cleric with the Planning domain (granting you the Extend Spell feat) and take Persistent Spell and DMM:Persistent Spell at level 1, followed by Extra Turning at level 3 you would have just enough turn attempts to pull it off once.

[fallensavior]

Depending on the level and the build of the cleric, you could always Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell a buff with a noticeable affect at whatever time of day you normally pray for your new daily spells. Then, 24 hours later when the buff ends, pray for your new spells and recast the buff. Requires 7 turning attempts though, so if you do the standard Human Cleric with the Planning domain (granting you the Extend Spell feat) and take Persistent Spell and DMM:Persistent Spell at level 1, followed by Extra Turning at level 3 you would have just enough turn attempts to pull it off once.

That is a good workaround, but I am the DM and I already nerfed DMM. The party is mid level, and so unable to cast persistent spells. Any other ideas?

Are there any spells that naturally have a 24 hour duration?

[fallensavior]

Are there any spells that naturally have a 24 hour duration?

Hmm, looks like Create Food and Water would work.

[NecessaryWeevil]

I feel that unless your god is an unnecessarily legalistic jerk, you should be able to pray when you think it's time (no more than once every 24 hrs obviously) or perhaps get a little nudge from your divine connection.

[fallensavior]

I feel that unless your god is an unnecessarily legalistic jerk, you should be able to pray when you think it's time (no more than once every 24 hrs obviously) or perhaps get a little nudge from your divine connection.

I could see allowing wiggle room on a chaotic deity...but the deity in question in my game is lawful. I also really don't want to establish a precedent of that kind of deity to spellcaster communication outside of the proper channels (Commune spell, etc).

In this case, Create food and Water will work well enough. I guess non-cleric spell list divine casters will have to shop for a magic wristwatch or something.

[thecrimsondawn]

I think the real question that should be asked is. does time really matter as much as the act.

I work overnight. When I get off, the sun is coming up. When I go in, the sun is already down.
When I wake up, the sun is already going down.
Morning for me is when I wake up, and night is when I sleep.
In an environment where time is hard to tell (or not possible at all) It would be up to the dedicated faith of the cleric to know that when they wake up, they will follow the same ritual of praying to honor there god.

If you want to look at it another way, If I remember right, from one of the books, it said that one of the ways clerics may be able to use there power is not that there god is simply granting them magical powers, but rather the divine rank of said god is so huge that it exudes a powerful aura that clerics and others that believe in the god can just reach up and grab with there faith.

[KillingAScarab]

If you need another spell duration to act as a timer, animal messenger, gentle repose and command undead last for one day per level, and can be cast as 2nd level spells by druids, clerics and sorcerers/wizards respectively. Goodberry can be cast by druids as a 1st level spell.

3.5 bards and druids can already cast know direction to instantly accomplish something which in 3.0 required ranks in the intuit direction skill. Any 3.5 character can find north with an untrained survival check, but 5 ranks lets you know it automatically. I think it is reasonable to make timekeeping another function of survival and create another cantrip/orison which does the same instantly. While using survival to accomplish this in an unfamiliar environment (the Underdark, on different planes) might have circumstance penalties, the spell should just work as long as time works. If you would rather have a spell with a duration of other than instantaneous, I would consider making it a first, maybe a second level spell. It seems possible to replicate the effect of a clock with unseen servant moving something repeatedly for the entirety of its duration.

[Crake]

The firmament stone from dungeonscape (an alchemical item) costs 110gp and does pretty much exactly what you want.


This violet crystal gem has been treated with an alchemical substance that reacts to the position of either the sun or the moon. Even while indoors or below ground, you know the time of day (or night).

[Ashes]

I feel like clerics should just feel these things inside. The bond to their god is strong enough to give them a massive aura, so it should also be strong enough to give them a feeling of when worship would be appreciated.
Tell the cleric he feels the call of his deity and be done with it. It doesn't matter that much, and in this way, would give the player a stronger feeling of connection to his chosen deity. Win-win, I'd say.

Also, anything else would be a ****ish move by the DM, as playing a cleric with no spells is about as much fun as pretendig to be a cardboard box, and the passage of time isn't something players can control, but rather completely up to DM fiat.

[fallensavior]

The firmament stone from dungeonscape (an alchemical item) costs 110gp and does pretty much exactly what you want.

This is pretty much what I was looking for, but poses the same problem as a 0-level spell or easy skill check solution: Why would anyone have invented a water clock that costs 1000 gp, weighs 200 lbs, requires a water source, and stops working when you move it?

[WeaselGuy]

This is pretty much what I was looking for, but poses the same problem as a 0-level spell or easy skill check solution: Why would anyone have invented a water clock that costs 1000 gp, weighs 200 lbs, requires a water source, and stops working when you move it?

Maybe for the same reason people buy Rolex's and Bentley's, when Timex's and Toyota's do the same thing?

[fallensavior]

Maybe for the same reason people buy Rolex's and Bentley's, when Timex's and Toyota's do the same thing?

Not really. In this case, the rolex costs 1/10 of the timex.

[Ephemeral_Being]

This is pretty much what I was looking for, but poses the same problem as a 0-level spell or easy skill check solution: Why would anyone have invented a water clock that costs 1000 gp, weighs 200 lbs, requires a water source, and stops working when you move it?

The water clock was constructed first. And now, there are better things to buy. But there are still antique water clocks for those who are so inclined.

There. Perfectly logical explanation.

[Sam K]

This is pretty much what I was looking for, but poses the same problem as a 0-level spell or easy skill check solution: Why would anyone have invented a water clock that costs 1000 gp, weighs 200 lbs, requires a water source, and stops working when you move it?

Why do you even worry about the water clock? It's a single item that was probably added for historical reasons (it existed in AD&D). Unless your campaign setting is "World of Waterclocks", or has a BBEG that rose to power through money made from selling water clocks, it doesn't really seem like this would matter too much.

It's the same as with the spyglass; mechanical gadgets are just more expensive than more reliable magic items in D&D. Magic is established, technology is mostly novelty.

[Crake]

This is pretty much what I was looking for, but poses the same problem as a 0-level spell or easy skill check solution: Why would anyone have invented a water clock that costs 1000 gp, weighs 200 lbs, requires a water source, and stops working when you move it?

A water clock is a marvel of mechanical engineering in a world where magic is the norm, but mechanics are not. It's something rare, and while clearly not as effective as magic, it is hard to design and make, and has a level of prestige about it. Things aren't just expensive due to their practical uses after all, case in point: jewelry.

[GilesTheCleric]

I think candle wicks burn at the rate of one inch per hour (AaEG? PHB? somewhere). Hang it from a stick, put it in a jar with holes in it and a cloth to cover the light, or leave it at your camp. The price is essentially negligible.

[sleepyphoenixx]

A water clock is a marvel of mechanical engineering in a world where magic is the norm, but mechanics are not. It's something rare, and while clearly not as effective as magic, it is hard to design and make, and has a level of prestige about it. Things aren't just expensive due to their practical uses after all, case in point: jewelry.

Just a nitpick but Firmament Stones are alchemical, not magic. Just in case you ever need to tell the time in an AMF. :smalltongue:

[Darrin]

The firmament stone from dungeonscape (an alchemical item) costs 110gp and does pretty much exactly what you want.

There's also the Desk Clock (25 GP, Ghostwalk) and Differential Hourglass (75 GP, Planar Handbook).


This is pretty much what I was looking for, but poses the same problem as a 0-level spell or easy skill check solution: Why would anyone have invented a water clock that costs 1000 gp, weighs 200 lbs, requires a water source, and stops working when you move it?

In a European medieval setting, water clocks could be important for monastic orders to tell when certain prayers must be performed. In the context of D&D, if a monastic order had no spellcasters, they'd need a way to tell time, and a water clock would be ideal: they presumably already have a water source, they don't need to move it, and they have lots of people to fuss over it and keep it working. Somewhat more plausable might be monastic orders that specifically forbid spellcasting (along with partially charged wands), and thus they need a non-magical method to keep track of time. The monks probably have enough free time to craft such a mechanical device, and it's not a stretch to imagine they'd be proud enough of their achievement that they'd want to shove it in some people's faces and try to sell it to others, proving the superiority of their mechanical aptitude and engineering expertise over those lazy, sloppy pointy-hatted charlatans. Rich nobles who want to show off their wealth (and who are also jealous/afraid of more powerful wizards) would likely be a good market for such things.

[Maglubiyet]

"Oh magnificent Lord, it is I, your humble servant bringing daily words of praise so that you may..."

"You're late."

[Mehangel]

I think it has been made perfectly clear that settlements have multiple means of telling time.

As for telling time outside of the settlements, I would suggest just researching a new spell such as:

Know the Signs
Bard 0, Cleric 0, Druid 0, Sorcerer/Wizard 0
Duration: 24 Hours or Until Triggered.
This spell upon being cast asks you to choose a specific time (hour of the day) or astrological event (i.e. eclypse (solar or lunar, meteor showers, specific moon phase, dawn, dusk, etc) that should happen within the next 24 hours, when or if the event occurs, a mental ping (loud enough to wake the caster if they so desire) goes off a number of minutes prior equal to its caster level (So to allow the person adequate time to prepare oneself for the event).

[Fouredged Sword]

Also, not every community has access to spellcasters. You cannot craft alchemical items without access to spellcasters. A waterclock can be built by anyone with a good set of tools, a good int bonus, and max first level ranks in craft (clocks). Yeah, it takes tons of time and is expensive, but you can do it. No magic required.

Also, the firmament stone is unlikely to be accurate to more than an hour or two outside specific times that are obvious (dawn, noon, sunset, midnight) and falls to the same problem as a sundial, IE the duration of a day changes with the season so you cannot use it for precise timing outside finding noon and specific days of the year. Think of it like a clock with only an hour hand and no numbers that is constantly up to ether an hour fast or slow depending on the time of year. A waterclock can be accurate to the second and can be used for things like the complex timing needed for some rituals and such.

You can use a firmament stone to tell time. A waterclock tells you the time. It is a subtle, but significant distinction.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Also, the firmament stone is unlikely to be accurate to more than an hour or two outside specific times that are obvious (dawn, noon, sunset, midnight) and falls to the same problem as a sundial, IE the duration of a day changes with the season so you cannot use it for precise timing outside finding noon and specific days of the year. Think of it like a clock with only an hour hand and no numbers that is constantly up to ether an hour fast or slow depending on the time of year. A waterclock can be accurate to the second and can be used for things like the complex timing needed for some rituals and such.


If you're going to make the distinction you should keep in mind that a society where people usually tell the time by the position of the sun will also use that as a measurement of time more often than precise hour:minute measurements.

Pretty much all time critical tasks in D&D are measured like that. For a divine caster it doesn't help to know that it's 6:00 AM on the dot if you don't know when exactly dawn is on the day in question.

[Fouredged Sword]

If you're going to make the distinction you should keep in mind that a society where people usually tell the time by the position of the sun will also use that as a measurement of time more often than precise hour:minute measurements.

Pretty much all time critical tasks in D&D are measured like that. For a divine caster it doesn't help to know that it's 6:00 AM on the dot if you don't know when exactly dawn is on the day in question.

My point exactly. A waterclock is a precision tool that is impractical for most applications. A Firmament stone is ideal for most applications, but say you have to steep a herb in a solution for exactly 36 seconds... it won't help and a waterclock may. Timed candles may be the best solution on the cost front, but those have the problem on being single use, and someone, somewhere had to calibrate it to a good timekeeping device like a waterclock.

But yes, modern timekeeping is basically unneeded in a non-technological setting. Waterclocks are expensive because they are complex and rare. They are rare because the skills to build them are rare. The skills are rare because few people will pay to own one so the skills are more or less impractical.

[daremetoidareyo]

A better question is: is there the same concept of time in the underdark. There is no light limitation to build behaviors on. These beasts have darkvision. Drow don't even need to sleep, just meditate for a few hours. Topworlders have this as an issue, but the denizens of below would develop an environmentally orchestrated rhythm divorced from the movement of the sun...unless the light of the sun or movement of the moon affects something magnetically underground somehow.

So the drow concept of time is totally foreign to other topworlders. Their meditation time would probably be controlled by some sort of circadian rhythm but that rhythm would be influenced by nuances of the subsurface life. And, seeing as how they would be prone to attack (they're a CE society!) there would definitely be safety rituals in place to ensure personal safety when meditation time is needed. Dogs circle their bed three times before laying, drow find spots where they are totally undetectable to creatures with darkvision/blindsense.

[Zeb]

Endure Elements (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/endureElements.htm) is usually how we have done it underground.

The next time you actually feel hot or cold its been 24 hrs.

[Flickerdart]

Step 1: Cleric takes a moment when he has free time to pray to his god.
Step 2: If he's able to get spells, it's been 24 hours.
Step 3: If he hasn't, pray in an hour or so.

A cleric should easily be able to tell if his spell-getting is working.

[Ferronach]

I am going to have to go with Crimson here.

I wake up at 6 am regardless of what day of the week it is (i roll ove rnad go back to sleep on the weekends).
I have breakfast at 6:45.
I begin to get hungry around 9:30 and eat a snack at 10: when I am really hungry.
I eat lunch at 12:00 when I am hungry.
I have a snack at 15:00 because once again I am hungry.
I Have supper around 18:00 because you guessed it - I am hungry.
I have a snack at 19:30 and go to bed around 22:00 because I am very tired.

Rise repeat. I have followe dthis schedule and my body knows it. I can usually tell the time based on how I feel and my hunger level.
Yes being very busy throws it off and staying up late/sleeping in shifts it a little but that is besides the point.
You can use your body as a pretty decent clock.
I live in Canada in a city where we get close to 23 hours of sunlight in summer and close to 20 hours of dar-dimness in winter.
I can still tell time by my body.
Being underground should not affect the characters internal clocks overly much. Especially if they are there for prolonged periods and establish some semblance of a routine.

[Maglubiyet]

I can still tell time by my body.
Being underground should not affect the characters internal clocks overly much. Especially if they are there for prolonged periods and establish some semblance of a routine.

You have the sun and clocks to constantly remind you and reset your circadian rhythms. Try sleeping in a cave for a couple of weeks with no frame of reference. These mice (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1440-1819.2002.00982.x/full) lost their day/night cycle.

[Ferronach]

You have the sun and clocks to constantly remind you and reset your circadian rhythms. Try sleeping in a cave for a couple of weeks with no frame of reference. These mice (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1440-1819.2002.00982.x/full) lost their day/night cycle.

That is why I would strive to maintain a regular routine. Even if it is a bit modified.
I have often gone without looking at a clock for the better part of the day and still been reasonably close when asked what the time was.

[Maglubiyet]

That is why I would strive to maintain a regular routine. Even if it is a bit modified.
I have often gone without looking at a clock for the better part of the day and still been reasonably close when asked what the time was.

At most you're going 12 hours or so without looking, and there's still the sun to constantly reset your internal clock. What would you do if you were wandering around an unfamiliar place, getting into fights at unpredictable times, needing to rest from wounds, etc.

People locked inside a dark room can lose their sense of time in as little as 48 hours (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensory_deprivation#.22Total_Isolation.22).

[nyjastul69]

I handwave away any concerns about whether a character can access their own abilities because they can't see the sun. On the other hand, I enforce encumbrance and food/water liabilities.

[Flickerdart]

On the other hand, I enforce encumbrance and food/water liabilities.
Do you also enforce coins having weight?

[nyjastul69]

Do you also enforce coins having weight?
Yes. Coin weight doesn't come into play often because it's usually exchanged for goods/items/services fairly quickly. Most of these issues end up being non issues after levels 3-5.

Edit: Yeah, I know, I'm weird.

[Ferronach]

At most you're going 12 hours or so without looking, and there's still the sun to constantly reset your internal clock. What would you do if you were wandering around an unfamiliar place, getting into fights at unpredictable times, needing to rest from wounds, etc.

People locked inside a dark room can lose their sense of time in as little as 48 hours (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensory_deprivation#.22Total_Isolation.22).

valid point but we are not DnD characters with magic and such.