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View Full Version : Succeeding or Failing to Move Silently (I GOT A 4!)



Scalenex
2007-04-12, 01:36 PM
When you have a group of people trying to be sneaky and you roll everyone individually, statistically speaking, someone will blow it.

If you have a group of people to sneak past, statistically speaking, someone will get a good Listen/Spot roll even if no one has any ranks.

How do you handle groups sneaking around or groups trying to spot sneaking?

I've come up with 3 variations on tackling this, I'm sure there are more.

1) Everyone rolls their check
2) Estimate and average for each group and roll that
3) Roll for the person with the lowest Hide/Move Silently modifier only (group is only as quiet as the noisiest person)
3.5) Only roll the highest Listen/Spot check of the opposed group

Lapak
2007-04-12, 01:40 PM
The rules in... where is it? PHII? Complete Adventurer? On assisting others have helped me with the group-sneaking issue. The basic idea is that a character with enough skill ranks can take a stiff penalty to give a moderate bonus to everyone else as he coaches them through the process.

Matthew
2007-04-12, 01:45 PM
Have everyone 'take 10'. By far the easiest way.

Grr
2007-04-12, 01:48 PM
Unless someone is actively listening, they should only get to take a 10 on their listen and spot checks. That's the way I run it for my games. NPC Guards will be standing at their posts for hours. They're not going to be actively searching for any threats the entire time.

PC_Rogue rolls a 19 move silently and 13 hide.
NPC_Guard1 takes ten and gets a 12 on listen and spot.
NPC_Guard2 is a bit more wise, and takes ten, for a 13 on listen and spot, noticing the rogue trying to sneak over the wall.

Now if the NPC's had been alerted to an impending threat, they'd get active rolls which could be better or worse for the rogue attempting to scale the wall and sneak past the guards.

Matthew
2007-04-12, 03:24 PM
It is worth remembering that the difficulty changes, depending on distance between the Characters, which is a lot easier to calculate when 'taking 10'.

asqwasqw
2007-04-12, 03:33 PM
When you have a group of people trying to be sneaky and you roll everyone individually, statistically speaking, someone will blow it.

If you have a group of people to sneak past, statistically speaking, someone will get a good Listen/Spot roll even if no one has any ranks.

How do you handle groups sneaking around or groups trying to spot sneaking?

I've come up with 3 variations on tackling this, I'm sure there are more.

1) Everyone rolls their check
2) Estimate and average for each group and roll that
3) Roll for the person with the lowest Hide/Move Silently modifier only (group is only as quiet as the noisiest person)
3.5) Only roll the highest Listen/Spot check of the opposed group

The problem with number 2 and 3 is that the lowest hide/move silently modifier's roll can beat the roll of the PC's better able to move silently.

Devils_Advocate
2007-04-12, 03:56 PM
When you have a group of people trying to be sneaky and you roll everyone individually, statistically speaking, someone will blow it.

If you have a group of people to sneak past, statistically speaking, someone will get a good Listen/Spot roll even if no one has any ranks.
Well, as has been pointed out, the PCs can take 10 on their checks. That makes the group as stealthy as its least stealthy member, which seems fair.

I don't think that you should have the NPCs take 10 on Spot and Listen, though. That makes a group of guards as alert as their most alert member, which doesn't seem reasonable. Adding more guards should make it more likely that at least one of them will see or hear you, even if the added guards aren't as good at seeing and hearing things as the ones already present.

Basically, the issue here is that it's significantly harder for a large group of people to sneak past someone, and it's significantly harder to sneak past a large group. Well, that seems exactly how things ought to be! :smallsmile:

Matthew
2007-04-12, 04:00 PM
That's a slightly different issue and depends on where the guards are placed (and distance from them). It shouldn't be harder to sneak past a garden full of guards than a garden with only one guard in it.

brian c
2007-04-12, 05:27 PM
Well, as has been pointed out, the PCs can take 10 on their checks. That makes the group as stealthy as its least stealthy member, which seems fair.

I don't think that you should have the NPCs take 10 on Spot and Listen, though. That makes a group of guards as alert as their most alert member, which doesn't seem reasonable. Adding more guards should make it more likely that at least one of them will see or hear you, even if the added guards aren't as good at seeing and hearing things as the ones already present.

Basically, the issue here is that it's significantly harder for a large group of people to sneak past someone, and it's significantly harder to sneak past a large group. Well, that seems exactly how things ought to be! :smallsmile:

Actually I think that's very reasonable; if a character or group of characters is trying to sneak past a group of guards, only one guard needs to see/hear them to blow their cover.

Say you have two guards: one is highly attuned (good wisdom, ranks in Listen/Spot, say +8 total to both) and the other one is, um, very inattentive (-2 to both). If the rogue sneaking by rolls 15 to move silently, the second guard won't notice him but the first guard definitely can. The first guard shouldn't be penalized just because the second one has low Wisdom; once Guard #1 sees/hears the rogue he can point the sneaker out to Guard #2 and they're both aware.

Orzel
2007-04-12, 05:56 PM
Well a normal party shouldn't be sneaking past the same thing all at once. A non-stealth based party should'nt normally be sneaking past guards.

Normally every PC and actively using NPC can choose to roll or take 10, unaware NPCs take 10.

Typically when an entire party sneaks, the guys with poor skills use magic, items, and distraction skills. Invisibility and Silence on the party and throwing rocks.

NullAshton
2007-04-12, 06:03 PM
A simple variant is to only roll one dice a group. One d20 for the PCs, one d20 for the guards, modified individually.

Heh... silence does work, but it kind of puts a damper on your allies telling you about the ettercap's web that you're about to run into. It has happened before in a game I've run.

Autarch
2007-04-12, 06:49 PM
When you have a group of people trying to be sneaky and you roll everyone individually, statistically speaking, someone will blow it.

If you have a group of people to sneak past, statistically speaking, someone will get a good Listen/Spot roll even if no one has any ranks.

How do you handle groups sneaking around or groups trying to spot sneaking?

I've come up with 3 variations on tackling this, I'm sure there are more.

1) Everyone rolls their check
2) Estimate and average for each group and roll that
3) Roll for the person with the lowest Hide/Move Silently modifier only (group is only as quiet as the noisiest person)
3.5) Only roll the highest Listen/Spot check of the opposed group

Personally, my gut reaction is to ask: "What problem?"
That is to say, it makes sense that it should be very hard for your entire party to sneak past someone. Your DM is making a mistake, in my opinion, if the entire group of PC's has no choice but to attempt to sneak by something simply by making move silently checks.

That said, it is one of my biggest pet peeves when someone makes a completely non-constructive post like what I just said. So, pretending that I didn't think there was a problem, here is my take on the issue:

When one person is sneaking by lots of people (ie: the previously mentioned 'garden full of guards'), I would rule that this situation is similar to making a disguise check in a crowd of people. The crowd gets one spot/listen check, and the bonus to this spot check represents the average among everyone in the group. Exceptions exist, of course. If one or two guards were actively on the lookout for someone (ie: have a reason to be suspicious that there is something to look for), they get their own spot/listen checks separately from the spot check made for the crowd in general.

When a group of adventurers is, for whatever reason, all sneaking past a guard, the situation is a bit different.
You said that the problem is that on average, one character will roll low. Taking 10 will usually fix that issue. A larger problem is if one character has heavy armor, or something of the sort.
The silence spell works, and if you have a psion, control sound works even better. One thing you can't do is change the rules to make it easier. Its not supposed to be easy; everyone needs to roll their hide/move silently, or they need to take a 10.

Another fix, this one a little bit less convenient, unfortunately, is to allow the spellcasters a new spell. (which might already exist)

Padfeet
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 2
Range: Touch
Target: 1 creature/2 levels touched
Effect: Improve target's ability to move silently
Duration: 1 min/level
Save: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

The targeted creatures make almost no sound while they walk. Armor check penalties to move silently are reduced by half (round down to a minimum of 1), and the targets gain a +10 enhancement bonus to move silently.

UglyPanda
2007-04-12, 07:03 PM
I think unaware guards take 5 since the listen DC raises by 5 since they're "distracted". If you have graph paper and colored pencils, then you can draw circles around the guards in which the PCs will be caught if they unintentionally enter.
For example: The rogue can enter the orange circle but not the red without getting noticed, the fighter can only enter the green circle, and the wizard can enter the yellow circle.

Devils_Advocate
2007-04-12, 07:39 PM
Actually I think that's very reasonable; if a character or group of characters is trying to sneak past a group of guards, only one guard needs to see/hear them to blow their cover.

The first guard shouldn't be penalized just because the second one has low Wisdom; once Guard #1 sees/hears the rogue he can point the sneaker out to Guard #2 and they're both aware.
Um, yeah. Obviously.

You seem to misunderstand what I wrote. I was saying that it's unreasonable for a group of guards to collectively only notice what the most alert guard would notice on his own. I think that adding another guard should help, even if the added guard isn't as alert. I certainly wasn't suggesting that adding a less alert guard should ever make the group of guards less likely to notice something!

Matthew
2007-04-12, 08:42 PM
It's only really likely to help by way of distance (i.e. there's no reason two or ten guards with Spot 0 should be able to spot what a single guard with Spot 5 is able, but if they are spread out they are more likely to observe or hear an approaching Character), but in any case there are rules that cover that as well: i.e. Aid Another

brian c
2007-04-13, 12:37 AM
Um, yeah. Obviously.

You seem to misunderstand what I wrote. I was saying that it's unreasonable for a group of guards to collectively only notice what the most alert guard would notice on his own. I think that adding another guard should help, even if the added guard isn't as alert. I certainly wasn't suggesting that adding a less alert guard should ever make the group of guards less likely to notice something!

hm... well I'm still not clear on what you're saying. How would the guards notice more than what the most alert guard would notice? Most alert should mean that he has the highest modifier, so if they all roll together or all take 10 then his final number for the listen/spot check is the highest. If they roll separately, then someone else could notice more than him if he didn't happen to be paying full attention at the time (the explanation for rolling low).

If you roll for each guard separately, then it statistically does help them notice; there's less of a chance that they'll both roll 1s and more of a chance that someone will roll a 20.

nivek1234
2007-04-13, 01:20 AM
I think that Devils_Advocate is saying that because there are more rolls (assuming active searches) that there is a greater chance of a roll being high enough to notice someone sneaking by. So your second paragraph would be what he was getting at.

Curiously, do you all normally play that when one person from a group who is hiding and moving silently is noticed that the rest are noticed? I personally do not go by those rules.

Justin_Bacon
2007-04-13, 01:58 AM
Unless someone is actively listening, they should only get to take a 10 on their listen and spot checks. That's the way I run it for my games. NPC Guards will be standing at their posts for hours. They're not going to be actively searching for any threats the entire time.

This, IMO, is overly simplistic. There are certainly some guards I could see modeling with a take 10, but there are also plenty of guards who should be rolling.

What most people forget to do is:

1. Apply a -5 penalty for distraction and the penalties for listening through walls when appropriate.

2. (And this is the biggie.) Apply the -1 per 10 feet modifier to Spot and Listen checks.

Here's my tip on fast-and-accurate resolution of these types of checks (when PCs are the ones sneaking):

1. Roll all the Spot/Listen checks at once (using multiple dice). Take the highest result of each.

2. Have the PCs roll their Hide/Move Silently checks. Take the lowest result of each.

Subtract the Hide/MS checks from the Spot/Listen checks. If the Hide/MS checks are successful, then the PCs could literally walk right under the guards' noses without being detected. Otherwise, the difference between the two checks multiplied by 10 feet is how close the PCs can get to the guards before they're detected.

Occasionally you'll need to consider a result other than the lowest one (for example, if the rogue is scouting way out in front) -- but, in general, this is simple.

Note that a distance of just 50 feet gives you a whopping 70% chance of succeeding at an opposed check with an equally skilled opponent: http://klubkev.org/~ksulliva/ralph/dnd-stats.html

Even given the fact that you have to make two checks, that still gives you a 50% chance of success when facing an equally skilled opponent. Which, beyond low levels, most guards won't be (if you're the rogue).


That's a slightly different issue and depends on where the guards are placed (and distance from them). It shouldn't be harder to sneak past a garden full of guards than a garden with only one guard in it.

Why wouldn't it be harder to sneak past multiple guards?

One common solution I see often suggested is to use the Aid Another rules. But, IIRC, when you run the numbers this actually makes it even more difficult for the guy trying to sneak past.

Matthew
2007-04-13, 01:39 PM
It depends what way you are looking at it and what you consider the D20 roll to represent. When you 'take 10', in my opinion, what you are saying is that there are no additional factors to take into account sufficient to change the probability that Character X will accomplish task Y. Rolling twenty Spot and Listen checks indicates that there are significant variables to be taken into account, both negative and positive. For a Character sneaking past twenty Guards, it doesn't make mechanical sense to make a roll for each and factor in each's distance from the Character (it's just too much unnecessary rolling, in my opinion). If the DM wants it to be harder or easier, he should use Circumstance Modifiers or the Aid Another Action.

NullAshton
2007-04-13, 01:56 PM
A much simpler way is to simply use 3d6 instead of a d20. Bellcurves make it so that more guards add an exponentially less advantage to spot someone, because of the way the probability graph isn't linear.

Wolf_Shade
2007-04-13, 06:22 PM
In my opinion, PC groups should always roll individually (anyone can hose up a roll, "That was stick, DO'H!"). Groups, if there are a large number of similar stats and you're just after speeding up the encounter, roll once for all.

"The group of guards is talking around the camp fire, what do you do?"
"We try and sneak past."
"Okay, roll move silently checks."
"X", "Y", "Z"
*DM rolls one dice, gets A, which happens to be less than all three character rolls.*
"The guards are fairly into their conversation, you sneak past unnoticed."

Edit: Also, if a party is attempting to sneak past a group of guards, and they aren't that close together, then a move silently failure by one technically only alerts the guards to the presence of that one, not the entire party. (For the purposes of things like surprise rounds or sneak attacks if they are discovered and have to fight, or if the rest of the party decides to move on while their friend is slaughtered.)

Matthew
2007-04-13, 06:31 PM
That's fine if you haven't already defined what the guards are doing, but it makes little sense to describe the guards as attentive and alert and then have to deal with rolling a 1 (you could explain it, "the guards are distracted by a loud crash nearby), but it's not strictly necessary. It depends what degree of randomness you want to ascribe to your game.