Can 11th-level ranger solo a juvenile red dragon?

[Dr TPK]

All right, so I'm the DM and the PCs in my campaign decided to ask an 11th-level half-orc ranger NPC to duel with a red dragon.

The ranger is optimized to deal with dragons (a "dragonslayer"). I have described him as having a composite longbow, greatsword, studded leather and no other meaningful equipment. I have described him very muscular.

Can it be done?

[AnonymousPepper]

Depends on just how magical his armor and weapon are, I think, and how good his feat selection is.

Give him a really, really good longbow (i.e. Hank's Energy Bow with whole butt ton of good WSAs slapped on it) and armor that lets him fly (i.e. Feathered) and he could probably do it. He needs a miss chance of some sort too, because no amount of AC at that level outside of Artificer shenanigans or something is going to give you enough to not get smacked by +24 to-hit. And fire resistance, because 44-damage fire breath hurts.

At least he doesn't have Frightful Presence to deal with.

Basically, it comes down to whether he can murderize the dragon faster than it can murderize him.

Which means he needs flight, he needs a ton of damage, and he needs a couple decent defenses that can stand up to the dragon's methods of attack.

All of these can be done purely with his weapon and armor plus normal ranger class features, in theory.

[Crake]

Depends on just how magical his armor and weapon are, I think, and how good his feat selection is.

Give him a really, really good longbow (i.e. Hank's Energy Bow with whole butt ton of good WSAs slapped on it) and armor that lets him fly (i.e. Feathered) and he could probably do it. He needs a miss chance of some sort too, because no amount of AC at that level outside of Artificer shenanigans or something is going to give you enough to not get smacked by +24 to-hit. And fire resistance, because 44-damage fire breath hurts.

At least he doesn't have Frightful Presence to deal with.

Basically, it comes down to whether he can murderize the dragon faster than it can murderize him.

Which means he needs flight, he needs a ton of damage, and he needs a couple decent defenses that can stand up to the dragon's methods of attack.

All of these can be done purely with his weapon and armor plus normal ranger class features, in theory.

Edit again: actually, I'm bored enough that I might try building a sample character to do it, as an example.

Remember though, he's an NPC, so he only gets NPC wbl, which is significantly less than PC wbl

[Firechanter]

Level 11 wbl is rather limited, especially if you want to stick to NPC progression.
If Hank's bow is a bit too expensive, give him a good Comp Longbow with Dragon Bane and maybe Magebane (if they stack)

Between Str, FE and single Bane bonuses, you should be looking at about 1d8+4+6+3+2d6 -> 25dmg per Hit and hopefully at least +20 To Hit. More with 2 Banes (+10), and a possible +3 from Improved FE. A Juv Red has about 168HP and AC 22, but he should be smart enough to buff up with Mage Armor and Shield (AC30), and if he uses bis 2nd level slot for Mirror Image, your Ranger is pretty much ****ed unless he has some way to throw Dispel Magic at him.

On the other hand, the Ranger has Evasion, good Ref and Resist Elements, so he needn't be worried about the dragon's mouth odor. But the dragon might decide to Grapple him, which absolutely must not happen. So he needs FoM or something.

There are probably some cool Ranger spells that could turn the tide. Not too familiar with them, though.

[Metahuman1]

If the gear is customized he can have things like "Must have favored enemy dragons" "Must be half Orc" "Must be X alignment." to use them, which can cut costs significantly.


Also, if he has a positive Wisdom Mod/Score, don't forget, Ranger Spells, particularly from spell compendium, are your friend.


Beyond that, Power Attack is a must have for him, as his Hank's Bow. Mage Bane and Dragon's Bane are both very good as well. As is a want chamber in the great sword with some UMD ranks and a wand of Wraith Strike.

[Firechanter]

P.S.: as I think about it, I come to the conclusion that the Ranger should have PC wealth.

[Bronk]

Try to get frost damage and collision on its bow too, remind him to pray for the 'hunter's eye' spell for sneak attack damage on the opening salvos and the 'hunter's mercy' spell for automatic crits later on. Then hand him a girdle of hate the day before to double his +6FE bonus to +12, and load him up with whatever other spells you can. Shield, mage armor, nerveskitter...

Then tell him not to duel the dragon. That's silly! Just hunt him down and get the drop on him through stealth.

[Brendanicus]

Alternatively, how smart is the Ranger? A juvenile dragon doesn't have that much combat experience. A level 11 Ranger has more than enough experience to go around. He could most likely lead the dragon into a trap, then unleash magic Dragonbane archery of doom.

[WeaselGuy]

You can pile on the bonus damage dice by prestige classing into Dragonslayer (Draconomicon) and Leviathan Hunter (Stormwrack).

[Firechanter]

Try to get frost damage and collision on its bow too

Now that would be diminishing returns at exponential cost. With +1 Dragonbane Magebane, you have effectively a +5 To Hit, +5 +4d6 Damage weapon for the price of a +3 (18000GP). Adding Frost and Collision adds only +1d6+5 dmg for another +3 bonus, pumping the total price to +6 = 72K; way beyond 100% level 11 PC wealth.
Ammunition might be a reasonable way to go to pile on the damage, though. In that case, better forfeit the worst iteratives.

Oh, and you should probably trade away the Pet for anything somewhat more useful. Ranger pets in 3.5 are just a bloody liability.

[elonin]

Which version is this in? There are some goodies found in PF that can help here. I'm a fan of deadly aim (power attack for bows). Clustered shot helps with DR and don't forget elemental damage and poison/alchemy on arrows. Also in pathfinder the spell gravity bow increases the size of your arrows by one size step and if you can manage a way to get an enlarge cast on yourself that means huge arrows (worth it even with the dex penalty).

[Darrin]

It stinks of super-moldy cheese, but is Arrow of Storing + shivering touch off the table?

[Metahuman1]

Oh, another feat you want. Favored Power Attack form Complete Warrior. Improved Power Attack damage increase rato when using it on Favored Enemy.

[danzibr]

It stinks of super-moldy cheese, but is Arrow of Storing + shivering touch off the table?
So *that's* how he got to be an 11th level dragon-slayer...

[sideswipe]

could go for long shot shenanigans. he kills the dragon with highly enchanted arrows/projectiles from 3/4 mile away. through any obstructions.

he would surely get the dragons gold or at least most if he wins so buying a highly enchanted bow (hanks energy) and then arrows that stack all sorts of damage on it and just get 10 of them. he can easily replace the wealth after.

[Hiro Quester]

To get around the WBL problem, you could have him ask PC s for loan of equipment or gold upfront to buy equipment.

And for buff spells.

[WeaselGuy]

Or, to get around the WBL problem, it's a friggin DMPC that makes a living slaying dragons. You know, those flying lizards that are known for keeping hoards of treasure and melting the faces off of the people that attempt to steal said treasure? I would reckon he would have a few specialty items, namely a good bow (if not a Hank's Energy Bow, then at least a Dragonbane Bow of the Wintermoon), good armor (Dragondodger Hawkfeather springs to mind) and maybe even a Freedom of Movement ring, possibly a Minor Cloak of Displacement. I mean, this all hinges on a few things of course. Namely, what level are your PCs, why are they hiring someone to kill a dragon for them, and do they plan on helping in the slaying of said dragon, or do they plan on sitting on the sidelines and looting when the dragon is dead? How much are they paying the Dragonslayer, what % of the hoard is his cut, and do you think they plan on backstabbing the Dragonslayer at the end of the fight? If you think they plan on backstabbing, definitely implement some of those fancy "can only be worn by a LN Half-Orc Wizard/Ranger/Arcane Archer/Dragonslayer/Leviathan Hunter named Rekt'sahn" cost reducers.
I mean, if it was me in the party, I would hire him, pay him 75% of his fee up front and promise him 25% of the hoard in addition to the remaining 25% of his fee after the dragon is dead, under the conditions that he fight the dragon alone. Then, when the dragon is dead and the Slayer is catching his breath, kill him, loot his corpse, and claim the prestige and the hoard for myself. I also play LE/NE characters though, so yeah. There's that to consider.

edit: Disregard the part where I said Half-Orc Arcane Archer. That doesn't actually work >.> Unless you want it to work, that is. You are the DM...

[Bronk]

Can it be done?

So, I guess the answer to your overall question is yes, but it's either up to you or your PCs to make it happen by making sure the NPC is as good as he/she says, well equipped, well buffed, and so on.

Do you, as the DM, actually want this ranger to win though?

[Dr TPK]

Which version is this in? There are some goodies found in PF that can help here. I'm a fan of deadly aim (power attack for bows). Clustered shot helps with DR and don't forget elemental damage and poison/alchemy on arrows. Also in pathfinder the spell gravity bow increases the size of your arrows by one size step and if you can manage a way to get an enlarge cast on yourself that means huge arrows (worth it even with the dex penalty).

This is 3.5.
Would the following be a stupid? I could give him a Dragon Slaying Arrow, roll the Fort save in secret and say that the dragon failed. The NPC battle would be over in less than a minute and we could all focus on what the PCs do.

However, the players AND PCs are both interested in this battle. They have no idea if the ranger is a 1st-level commoner or a 21st-level ranger pun-pun.

[Metahuman1]

Ok.

Max his strength score.

Favored Power Attack and Power Attack, and all his favored enemy's should apply to Dragon.

Get a casting of greater magic weapon on the sword, and a wand chamber in it with a wand of Wraith strike, and some cross class UMD ranks.

Put +1 Magebane Dragonbane Valorous and maybe collision on the sword, with cost reducers.

Prior to combat, Get Haste put on him, maybe enlarge person or something. Maybe a couple of potions.

Have the pet set up a flank stealthily. Ready an extra swift action.

Then, first round, have him "Win Initiative.", next, have him use the readied swift action to cast Lion's Charge (1st level ranger spell that gives pounce.) and the normal one to cast Wraithstrike on himself from the wand. Charge, and full attack, using Full Power Attack.




Then tell the PC's they see his hawk fly behind the dragon and see him charge it with the sword and let loose a furious onslaught of attacks. Watch there jaws drop as he liquifies it in the first round before it even get's a chance to mount a defense. With everything suggested above that'll be +21 to hit against Flatfooted Touch AC (Read, you hit period.)., and each hit would deal 3d6x2 + 126 + 4d6 damage per hit.

[Tvtyrant]

Can he be a Mystic Sword of the Arcane Order Ranger? Because if so he just casts Shivering Touch or polymorphs into a flying hydra or whatever.

[Firechanter]

Or, to get around the WBL problem, it's a friggin DMPC that makes a living slaying dragons.

If that was what the DM wanted to do, he needn't have posted this thread. Obviously the fight is supposed to follow the rules of the game, or he could just give a level 1 Commoner a Wish Ring and have him Wish the dragon dead.

[Deadline]

In answer to the OP's question, I'm going to say no, not unless the dragon is played unintelligently. Juvenile reds can cast spells, so arrows aren't going to be much use (Protection From Arrows or Windwall). And the ranger has no way of forcing the red into melee. So no, the ranger will eat firebreath attacks until he dies or finds a hole to hide in.

I think this NPC is going to need some divine DM intervention to have a chance.

[WeaselGuy]

If that was what the DM wanted to do, he needn't have posted this thread. Obviously the fight is supposed to follow the rules of the game, or he could just give a level 1 Commoner a Wish Ring and have him Wish the dragon dead.

Which is different from the following method how?


This is 3.5.
Would the following be a stupid? I could give him a Dragon Slaying Arrow, roll the Fort save in secret and say that the dragon failed. The NPC battle would be over in less than a minute and we could all focus on what the PCs do.

However, the players AND PCs are both interested in this battle. They have no idea if the ranger is a 1st-level commoner or a 21st-level ranger pun-pun.

My personal advice, if you are going to let the PCs hire someone to kill a dragon for them, it's up to you on if you want the dragonslayer to succeed or not. I like building flavorful characters, so if it was me, they would be hiring something like a NG Ranger 6/Leviathan Hunter 4/Dragonslayer 1, who has Dragondodger Hawkfeather Armor (21k ish), a Dragonbane Bow of the Wintermoon (4.4k), and a Minor Cloak of Displacement (24k). That's around 50k worth of gear. A level 11 NPC is supposed to have 21k, a level 11 PC should have 66k. If you want to meet the NPC WBL, ditch the cloak and the Dragondodger half of the Armor (you're really going to want flight). I suggest worshiping Corellon and taking True Believer at level 9 to unlock the Frost property on the bow too. Other feats required for this build would be Dodge and Iron Will, I would suggest Point Blank Shot for your remaining feat (you get Rapid Shot and Manyshot from Ranger 2 & 6, respectively). If you want, you can get Iron Will from the Otyugh Hole, opening up Improved Favored Enemy instead.

Also, a Juvie Red only casts as a 3rd level Sorcerer. Windwall is a 3rd level spell, Protection from Arrows is a 2nd level spell. Sor 3 is still 1st level spells.

[Dr TPK]

Also, a Juvie Red only casts as a 3rd level Sorcerer. Windwall is a 3rd level spell, Protection from Arrows is a 2nd level spell. Sor 3 is still 1st level spells.

Thank you for saving me the trouble answering this guy. I find it very difficult but still necessary to reply when someone says utter BS like it's a fact.

[Fouredged Sword]

The ranger can win. He has the advantage of being the hunter and is not required to fight in anyway fair.

Really, I would do the following.

The dragon is better in close range than the ranger, but the ranger has better ability to deal damage at range. I think we can pull a one shot kill at range.

Lets take a look at the ranger's ranged abilities.

+1 magebane, dragonbane distance bow. You are firing +1 freezing burst flight (or whatever the slashing arrows with 2X range are) arrows. You are using the ranger spell to auto-crit, so that adds 1d6+2d10 cold damage with the nice 1.5x weakness means an average of 21 extra damage on a crit.

Now your base damage is 1d8+str+6 (favored enemy) + 5 (flat enhancement bonus). This is all 3x due to the auto crit, meaning you deal an average of 58 damage with a str of 18 (after magic items, so your starting is likely a 16). You add on the variable enchantment damage of 4d6 (14), and the cold damage from the arrow (21) and you get 93.

This is a significant hit to the dragon's HP in a single shot. The dragon then deals with less damaging followup shots fired from stealth wile the ranger hides using the sniping rules. Distance to the target allows for a high bonus to the hide check.

The way I see this guy operating is to grab a ring of sustenance and camp out in the dragon's hunting grounds. The dragon fly's overhead and gets nailed with an arrow. The dragon is hurt badly, but not killed. It has two choices, ether hunt for the sniper (flying in the direction of the arrow) or going to ground to avoid further shots. If the dragon goes to ground, the sniper sneaks away before the dragon can get to him on foot. He can always snipe another day. If the dragon flies in his direction, he sets up another autocrit. This one is likely to kill the dragon outright.

He can in the least force a dragon to abandon an area due to harassment. If the dragon makes a bad call he can very effectively kill it.

He just has to make one thing understood. He can't win a straight fight. He is an ambush hunter who MUST control the battle. He has to engage at distance (1000+ feet). He can afford to sit in a tree and wait for as long as it takes for the dragon to fly by. He cannot afford to face a dragon at close range.

[Seerow]

Can he be a Mystic Sword of the Arcane Order Ranger? Because if so he just casts Shivering Touch or polymorphs into a flying hydra or whatever.

This would be the easiest way to deal with it. Boost the Ranger's int up to 15 so he can cast up to 5th level Wizard spells. He can load up with various defensive buffs to nullify the Dragon's offense, dispel magic to counter the Dragon's own spells, and make a prolonged show out of it. Or he can go for the quick win of hitting with a couple shivering touches, or uses some max power attacks with wraithstrike, or any other number of typical dragonslaying options.


Now if you want to do it with standard ranger instead of "Full BAB Wizard", it's harder but as others have pointed out with the right gear it's totally doable.

[Jay R]

That depends on way too many variables.

Where is the dragon?
Does it know he's coming?
Can it be ambushed?
Is there a mountain above to provide an avalanche?
Is there a chokepoint he can use that it cannot get through?
How are the dice feeling that night?

The short answer is that he can win, or he can lose. Both are possible. But characters who attack a dragon in straight-up combat are generally fools.

[Deadline]

Thank you for saving me the trouble answering this guy. I find it very difficult but still necessary to reply when someone says utter BS like it's a fact.

Yep, I derped. I read that column as "3rd level spells", not as "3rd level sorcerer". (That's what I get for rushing a post before lunch.)

That said, since I always bring umbrellas to parades:

It's still pretty unlikely for the ranger to kill the dragon at range before the dragon kills him. Resistance to fire isn't going to be enough at that level, and even if he could protect himself from the breath weapon long enough he still doesn't have a way to force the dragon to engage him in melee (or even keep engaging at range) without DM fiat. If you are bristling from my statement that a dragon choosing to engage a potentially dangerous target in melee is not intelligent dragon behaviour, I'll direct you to the Draconomicon, and several (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?359399-Dragon-Encounter-Fairness) threads (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?257576-Dragon-vs-melee-party) here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?336532-Dragon-Combat-Tactics-3-5) about the ability of dragons to punch well above their CR. My comment about intelligence wasn't directed at you, but at not playing the Dragon to it's listed intelligence. That's a CR 10 Red Dragon vs. a CR 11 ranger, right? Keep in mind that a party of even CR should use up roughly 25% of their resources (hp, spells, consumables, etc.). That's with 4 people in the average party. And again, Dragons when played according to their intelligence tend to be a much stronger encounter than their CR would suggest.

The fact that the red can't drop the common archery defense spells helps, and gives the ranger a fighting chance at range, but again, why would the red bother engaging him at all, let alone on the ground? You can fake out the DM fiat by putting the ranger in a position to threaten something the red cares about, which would likely be his hoard. So if you want an epic melee showdown (which, again, is still probably stacked in the dragon's favor), then have the ranger "track" the dragon back to its hoard and face off against it in a cave or something. At least then you can force the melee position. But in the open sky? The dragon is fast enough to render the rangers bow relevant only during strafing passes. Equipment isn't going to do enough to win the fight. So, to recap, an advantageous setting for the fight, some great fire resist, AC, and maybe the Shocktrooper line of feats might be enough to keep the red from eating the ranger for lunch. It'll certainly give him a fighting chance, if you don't want to go with your Arrow of Slaying fiat option.

There are a host of spells that can help bring the dragon out of the sky, but as a ranger he won't have much access. Someone mentioned the ranger variant that gives you better spellcasting. That variant will give you access to the spells, but I think it shoots your BAB in the foot (don't have the variant handy to look). If you have access to the spells, then I think Wingbind from the Spell Compendium can be useful. And if you have a way to get into melee with Shivering Touch, that's the usual method for reliable dragon killing.

[Dr TPK]

That depends on way too many variables.

Where is the dragon?
Does it know he's coming?
Can it be ambushed?
Is there a mountain above to provide an avalanche?
Is there a chokepoint he can use that it cannot get through?
How are the dice feeling that night?

The short answer is that he can win, or he can lose. Both are possible. But characters who attack a dragon in straight-up combat are generally fools.

Very good questions! I was thinking about covering these in the OP, but there were too many things... Now that you have that great list, I can proceed.

Where is the dragon? In a city, just living an easy life with her kobold minions.
Does it know he's coming? No.
Can it be ambushed? Depends. The army with the Ranger will lure it out of the city, but the Ranger itself is just one soldier among many. None of the soldiers want to fight it (not even the PCs!) and the Ranger is there to kill it.
Is there a mountain above to provide an avalanche? No.
Is there a chokepoint he can use that it cannot get through? No.
How are the dice feeling that night? I, the DM, always roll great. The players suck at rolling.

[WeaselGuy]

Very good questions! I was thinking about covering these in the OP, but there were too many things... Now that you have that great list, I can proceed.

Where is the dragon? In a city, just living an easy life with her kobold minions.
Does it know he's coming? No.
Can it be ambushed? Depends. The army with the Ranger will lure it out of the city, but the Ranger itself is just one soldier among many. None of the soldiers want to fight it (not even the PCs!) and the Ranger is there to kill it.
Is there a mountain above to provide an avalanche? No.
Is there a chokepoint he can use that it cannot get through? No.
How are the dice feeling that night? I, the DM, always roll great. The players suck at rolling.

You really aren't making this easy on the Dragonslayer, are you? I'm torn between a few different methods, and it's driving me nuts coming up with an effective solution. Fact of the matter is, you aren't going to be able to pull off "one shot, one kill" without being a primary spellcaster. You won't really be able to pull off effective melee combat either, given the parameters of the engagement.

I would suggest going all Dragonheart 2 on him, and using a ballista, but the damage (and cost) from it is not really that great.
You could probably pull off some Aptitude Great Crossbow shenanigans, with Crossbow Sniper and Cragtop Archer, maybe fitting in some Deepwood Sniper and Gnomish Crossbow Sights. With that method, you can pull off iterative 2d8 attacks at ridiculous range.
Or you could do a volley archer build and just rain down clouds of arrows.
Another option, especially given the layout above, would be a Swift Hunter build, but you again run the problem of range. No dragon with an intelligence over 7 will ever stay within 30 feet of an archer, so you may have to look at Sniper's Shot applying it's benefit to Skirmish damage.

I think, what would really help (at least me) out, would be knowing the wealth for this dragonslayer. Is it level 11 NPC (21k), level 11 PC (66k), or level 11 DMPC (however much it takes)?


I'm starting to grow fond of the Swift Hunter concept, and would seriously suggest upping him to level 12. Ranger 1/Scout 3/Ranger+6/Fighter 2 gets you Skirmish as a 10th level scout, (3d6, 2ac (I think)), which can (and should) be bumped up to 5d6 with Improved Skirmish. Thinking something like the following for feats:
1-Weapon Focus (Light Crossbow)
3-Crossbow Sniper
5(Ranger)-Rapid Shot
6-Swift Hunter
9-Improved Skirmish
9(Ranger)-Manyshot
11(Fighter)-Point Blank Shot
12-Rapid Reload
12(Fighter)-Greater Manyshot

With this setup, you're moving 20 feet and firing off 3 bolts that each do 1d8+5d6(Skirmish)+2d6(Bane)+4(FE)+1/2 Dex (assuming 18 Dex (+4 modifier), +2 damage), +Enhancement Bonus. Use Hunting Ammunition to double the Favored Enemy damage (bringing it up to 8). A +1 Dragonbane Light Crossbow would cost you 8335. 50 Hunting Bolts would cost 2305 (if I recall correctly, individually priced magic ammo is 1/50th the original cost, so something like 46 gold per). You'd be looking at an average of 40 damage per shot, so 120 damage in one round. If you can get within 60 feet of the dragon. If not, well, Sniper's Shot is a swift action Ranger spell, and allows you to ignore range requirements for precision damage for one round. A wand of Sniper's Shot costs (I think) 750 gp. A wand chamber (100 gp) in your crossbow would allow you to cast that spell every round without having to draw the wand. So now you can Skirmish the Dragon from up to 80 feet away. The Gnomish Crossbow Sight (150 gp)lets you ignore the penalty from the first 2 range increments, so that should push your range out to 240 feet (I think. Might be 160 feet instead). You attack roll is at a -6 from GMS, +1 from WF, +1 from Enhancement, +4 from Dex, +11 from BAB = 1d20+11 to hit, vs a 24 AC, which is a 40% hit chance (I think). For 5k you can get Lesser Bracers of Archery, giving you another +1 bonus to hit (45%). At this point, you are at 16640 gp spent. Skirmishers Boots are 3200 (bringing total gp spent up to 19840), and give you +2 bonus on damage rolls when you skirmish, and 2/day after you move at least 10 feet in a round, you can activate the boots to make another ranged attack at your full BAB (I don't know if it will get the Skirmish bonus or not. If not then it's still an additional 1d8+2d6+8+2+1=~21.5 dmg).

[Bronk]

Very good questions! I was thinking about covering these in the OP, but there were too many things... Now that you have that great list, I can proceed.

Where is the dragon? In a city, just living an easy life with her kobold minions.
Does it know he's coming? No.
Can it be ambushed? Depends. The army with the Ranger will lure it out of the city, but the Ranger itself is just one soldier among many. None of the soldiers want to fight it (not even the PCs!) and the Ranger is there to kill it.
Is there a mountain above to provide an avalanche? No.
Is there a chokepoint he can use that it cannot get through? No.
How are the dice feeling that night? I, the DM, always roll great. The players suck at rolling.

Heh, well, I thought it was a bit weird that the PCs were getting some random ranger to fight a duel for them, but this is just getting lazy on their part. Is there some reason they're not doing this themselves? I can see that they don't want to, but that would just mean that they fail the challenge and have to deal with the consequences of their cowardice.

Now that I think about it, that's great! Just have the ranger house the dragon however you like, but then he gets the accolades, experience, and loot, and then whenever they run into him he'll just sneer at them. Bards will sing his praises, leaving the PCs out in the cold, wondering why they didn't step up.

[atemu1234]

Depends on just how magical his armor and weapon are, I think, and how good his feat selection is.

Give him a really, really good longbow (i.e. Hank's Energy Bow with whole butt ton of good WSAs slapped on it) and armor that lets him fly (i.e. Feathered) and he could probably do it. He needs a miss chance of some sort too, because no amount of AC at that level outside of Artificer shenanigans or something is going to give you enough to not get smacked by +24 to-hit. And fire resistance, because 44-damage fire breath hurts.

At least he doesn't have Frightful Presence to deal with.

Basically, it comes down to whether he can murderize the dragon faster than it can murderize him.

Which means he needs flight, he needs a ton of damage, and he needs a couple decent defenses that can stand up to the dragon's methods of attack.

All of these can be done purely with his weapon and armor plus normal ranger class features, in theory.

And, with Improved Initiative and an optimized dexterity score, theoretically he could do fairly well. Stay out of range of the bite and claw attacks as long as you can.

[Jay R]

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that the ranger vs. dragon fight is intramural. You're running both sides.

So I don't really care who wins. Decide whose victory will improve the story, and make it work out that way.

But the point of the game is the PCs. You need to figure out which kobold minions or other available threat attacks the PCs, so the game isn't three hours of role-playing sitting there bored watching the NPCs do exciting things.

In the ideal situation, they are attacked right before the dragon fight starts, and finish up their exciting adventures just in time to see the nearly dead dragon slay the Ranger (if you want the PCs to get the treasure) or the Ranger slay the dragon (if you want the Ranger to get it all).

[Dr TPK]

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that the ranger vs. dragon fight is intramural. You're running both sides.

So I don't really care who wins. Decide whose victory will improve the story, and make it work out that way.

But the point of the game is the PCs. You need to figure out which kobold minions or other available threat attacks the PCs, so the game isn't three hours of role-playing sitting there bored watching the NPCs do exciting things.

In the ideal situation, they are attacked right before the dragon fight starts, and finish up their exciting adventures just in time to see the nearly dead dragon slay the Ranger (if you want the PCs to get the treasure) or the Ranger slay the dragon (if you want the Ranger to get it all).

I have never considered making this an NPC show and I think my previous posts in this thread prove that effectively. The scenario that I'm mostly considering is the following:
- The half-orc with Int 10 thinks that the (Dragon) Slaying Arrow is a tad more effective than it really is.
- He shoots and kills it immediately, in the first round. Everyone poops their pants.
- He shoots, misses or the dragon succeeds in its save, making the bewildered Ranger poop his pants. He's 11th-level, yes, and very experienced, but he had overestimated the slaying arrows.
- After the 1st round, the angered dragon easily kills the Ranger, making the PCs ask a lot of questions about the guy.

HOWEVER... There are lots of good ideas in this thread, and I'm considering all of them. Please keep them coming!

[Maglubiyet]

Is this actually a duel, like an arranged fight -- does the dragon know it's up against a ranger? That's going to heavily favor the dragon, especially if it can equip itself ahead of time too. Scrolls of Protection from Arrows, Hold Person, etc.

An Arrow of Slaying is kind of cheating. The dragon might suspect this kind of chicanery and plan for it accordingly. Bear's Endurance scroll or potion will boost its Fort save a couple points, giving it a better than even shot of surviving. Even something simple like Obscuring Mist would make it difficult to target.

[Dr TPK]

Is this actually a duel, like an arranged fight -- does the dragon know it's up against a ranger? That's going to heavily favor the dragon, especially if it can equip itself ahead of time too. Scrolls of Protection from Arrows, Hold Person, etc.

An Arrow of Slaying is kind of cheating. The dragon might suspect this kind of chicanery and plan for it accordingly. Bear's Endurance scroll or potion will boost its Fort save a couple points, giving it a better than even shot of surviving. Even something simple like Obscuring Mist would make it difficult to target.

You haven't read all my posts in this thread. It's ok, really, it's nothing bad.

The dragon has no clue about anything. She's just enjoying her life and she's 99% certain that nothing can challenge her.

[Dr TPK]

Heh, well, I thought it was a bit weird that the PCs were getting some random ranger to fight a duel for them, but this is just getting lazy on their part. Is there some reason they're not doing this themselves? I can see that they don't want to, but that would just mean that they fail the challenge and have to deal with the consequences of their cowardice.


They are just being real cowards. One of the PCs is kind of the leader of the group and he has decided to play a cowardly character.

[JyP]

Another possibility : http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18985549&postcount=26

=> make the ranger max out on Craft(trapmaking). With one magical artisan kit + Skill Focus feat, he should be able to create CR 10 traps - in the sewers, having infiltrated the city through them.

=> per trap rules, a CR 10 craft could be a +24 ranged attack for 16d6 damage (average 56 damage) - cost 3300 gp. Otherwise use Dungeonscape tips to create a trap with dragon bane or dragon slaying items in it. Or have him also use poisons and add them in traps.

He knows the knacks and habits of dragons and can lure them effectively (use Bluff vs Sense Motive), use his traps to enfeeble the dragon, before the finale. He needs help from PCs though - to infiltrate the sewers, setup the traps, and so on.

[Psyren]

I think, what would really help (at least me) out, would be knowing the wealth for this dragonslayer. Is it level 11 NPC (21k), level 11 PC (66k), or level 11 DMPC (however much it takes)?


This is by far the most important question. A lot of these tactics depend on gear, which in turn depends on wealth. Without the right gear, he won't even get close enough to the dragon to shoot, let alone hit, let alone trigger the fort save.



- After the 1st round, the angered dragon easily kills the Ranger, making the PCs ask a lot of questions about the guy.

Will they have time to ask many questions with an angry dragon in their faces? :smalltongue:

[Dr TPK]

I think, what would really help (at least me) out, would be knowing the wealth for this dragonslayer. Is it level 11 NPC (21k), level 11 PC (66k), or level 11 DMPC (however much it takes)?


NPC wealth, 21k

[Galen]

And fire resistance, because 44-damage fire breath hurts.
As luck would have it, Resist Energy and Protection from Energy are both Ranger spells, so no problem there.

I think the ranger can in fact win without any cheese. Please check my work.

Feats: Point Blank Shot, Knowledge Devotion, Protection Devotion, Stealthy, plus usual Ranger bonus feats.
Spells:
Level 1: Hunter's Mercy, Arrowmind
Level 2: Cat's Grace, Bear's Endurance, Barkskin
Level 3: Protection from Energy

Use scrolls if he doesn't have enough slots.

Skills: max ranks in Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Listen, Survival, Knowledge: Arcana (accessible due to Knowledge Devotion)
Items: Composite Longbow +3, Mithral Chain+1, buckler+1, plus a scroll or two for those spells for which he ran out of slots. (~21,000 gp, within WBL)
And, you guessed it, Favored Enemy Dragons +6

Dexterity with Cat's Grace is, let's say, 24.
Constitution with Bear's Endurance is, let's say, 20, for a total of 11d8+55 = 110 hit points
Strength is, let's say, 16.


Let's say he uses his uber-tracking abilities (+6 Survival to track dragons etc) to get the drop on the beast. I am going to admit that everything hinges on that - whether he can surprise the dragon or not. If he can't, and the fight starts with no surprise, I admit his chances are far worse. However, given that the ranger likely has Hide/MS around +22 and Survival (vs Dragons) around +23, it's not an unreasonable assumption.

Attack bonus is likely +24 or thereabout (+11 BAB, +7 Dex, +3 weapon, +1 PBS, +2 or better Knowledge Dev)
Damage is likely 1d8+15 (+3 Str with composite longbow, +6 favored enemy, +3 magic, +1 PBS, +2 or better Knowledge Dev)

Surprise round: Ranger has Hunter's Mercy precast and uses Manyshot for two arrows at +20, likely scoring one crit, one regular hit, for 4d8+60 (78 damage).

Let's be reasonable and say Ranger likely wins initiative because Dex. He uses Rapid Shot to attack at +22/+22/+17/+12, likely hitting 2-3 times and dealing either 2d8+30 (39 damage) or 3d8+45 (58 damage). Let's take average, 48 damage. On the dragon's first turn, he gets in the Ranger's face and breathes fire - ineffectually.
It's the ranger's turn again, and he makes another full attack (no AoO for the dragon due to Arrowmind) for another 48 damage.

For those keeping score, the dragon so far took 75+48+48 = 171 damage, and is in fact down (-3 hp).

Even if he didn't get very lucky and the dragon is alive, the ranger now has has enough HP and AC* to survive a full attack from the dragon, and finish him off on his next full attack. GG, dragon.

*total AC could be as high as 32 (+5 mithral chain+1, +7 Dex, +4 Barkskin, +4 Protection Devotion, +2 buckler), so the dragon's attacks are far from auto-hits

[WeaselGuy]

NPC wealth, 21k

Then, if you want the Ranger to actually, win, I think my build from earlier (which I shall repost here) would do the trick.


Ranger 1/Scout 3/Ranger+6/Fighter 2 gets you Skirmish as a 10th level scout, (3d6, 2ac (I think)), which can (and should) be bumped up to 5d6 with Improved Skirmish. Thinking something like the following for feats:
1-Weapon Focus (Light Crossbow)
3-Crossbow Sniper
5(Ranger)-Rapid Shot
6-Swift Hunter
9-Improved Skirmish
9(Ranger)-Manyshot
11(Fighter)-Point Blank Shot
12-Rapid Reload
12(Fighter)-Greater Manyshot

With this setup, you're moving 20 feet and firing off 3 bolts that each do 1d8+5d6(Skirmish)+2d6(Bane)+4(FE)+1/2 Dex (assuming 18 Dex (+4 modifier), +2 damage), +Enhancement Bonus. Use Hunting Ammunition to double the Favored Enemy damage (bringing it up to 8). A +1 Dragonbane Light Crossbow would cost you 8335. 50 Hunting Bolts would cost 2305 (if I recall correctly, individually priced magic ammo is 1/50th the original cost, so something like 46 gold per). You'd be looking at an average of 40 damage per shot, so 120 damage in one round. If you can get within 60 feet of the dragon. If not, well, Sniper's Shot is a swift action Ranger spell, and allows you to ignore range requirements for precision damage for one round. A wand of Sniper's Shot costs (I think) 750 gp. A wand chamber (100 gp) in your crossbow would allow you to cast that spell every round without having to draw the wand. So now you can Skirmish the Dragon from up to 80 feet away. The Gnomish Crossbow Sight (150 gp)lets you ignore the penalty from the first 2 range increments, so that should push your range out to 240 feet (I think. Might be 160 feet instead). You attack roll is at a -6 from GMS, +1 from WF, +1 from Enhancement, +4 from Dex, +11 from BAB = 1d20+11 to hit, vs a 24 AC, which is a 40% hit chance (I think). For 5k you can get Lesser Bracers of Archery, giving you another +1 bonus to hit (45%). At this point, you are at 16640 gp spent. Skirmishers Boots are 3200 (bringing total gp spent up to 19840), and give you +2 bonus on damage rolls when you skirmish, and 2/day after you move at least 10 feet in a round, you can activate the boots to make another ranged attack at your full BAB (I don't know if it will get the Skirmish bonus or not. If not then it's still an additional 1d8+2d6+8+2+1=~21.5 dmg).

[Psyren]

Then, if you want the Ranger to actually, win, I think my build from earlier (which I shall repost here) would do the trick.

Did you factor the slaying arrow(s) in there? I gather that is a non-negotiable of the build, though I may be wrong.

[WeaselGuy]

Did you factor the slaying arrow(s) in there? I gather that is a non-negotiable of the build, though I may be wrong.

No, I didn't. As was mentioned above (and with which I concur), Slaying Arrows rather cheapen the experience. Upon further review of my build, however, it may be interpreted by RAW that some of my archery feats do not work with this combat method, since Manyshot, for example, specifies firing multiple "arrows", and not "projectiles to include arrows, bolts, etc", since crossbows shoot bolts. However, the main draw to using a crossbow was the Crossbow Sniper feat, allowing the user to double his sneak attack range and add 1/2 dex mod to damage. Since the archer would be using the Sniper's Shot wand anyways, this is rather redundant. The same results could probably be achieved with a +1 Dragonbane Composite Bone Bow, and still reach nearly the same range (I'm AFB again, so I cannot cite an exact number at this time). You can simply replace WF(Crossbow), Crossbow Sniper, and Rapid Reload with the following:
1-Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bone Bow)
3-Point Blank Shot
5(R)-Rapid Shot
6-Swift Hunter
9-Improved Skirmish
9(R)-Manyshot
11(F)-Greater Manyshot

This allows you to stay at level 11, but I still recommend level 12 for the 3rd Manyshot arrow. I would recommend Far Shot for your level 12 feat in this case, to push your sniping capabilities out a bit further. Dragonslayer nets you an additional 1 damage per shot, as well as fear immunity (unnecessary against this size dragon, but perhaps useful for the ranger's future career).

[Deadline]

Let's say he uses his uber-tracking abilities (+6 Survival to track dragons etc) to get the drop on the beast. I am going to admit that everything hinges on that - whether he can surprise the dragon or not. If he can't, and the fight starts with no surprise, I admit his chances are far worse. However, given that the ranger likely has Hide/MS around +22 and Survival (vs Dragons) around +23, it's not an unreasonable assumption.

How is he defeating the Dragon's 60 ft. Blindsight? And a Juvenile Red likely has +23 Listen and Spot before items or spells. Your ranger would need the Darkstalker feat to even have a hope of "sneaking up".


Attack bonus is likely +24 or thereabout (+11 BAB, +7 Dex, +3 weapon, +1 PBS, +2 or better Knowledge Dev)
Damage is likely 1d8+15 (+3 Str with composite longbow, +6 favored enemy, +3 magic, +1 PBS, +2 or better Knowledge Dev)

Unless you can find a way to reliably sneak up on the dragon, you'll be out your PBS bonuses here.


Surprise round: Ranger has Hunter's Mercy precast and uses Manyshot for two arrows at +20, likely scoring one crit, one regular hit, for 4d8+60 (78 damage).

As pointed out, unless you are investing resources into getting past the dragon's impressive sensing capabilities, you are highly unlikely to get a surprise round. However, if you can manage to sneak up on an equal CR dragon, yeah, you'll put the hurt on. :smallsmile:


Let's be reasonable and say Ranger likely wins initiative because Dex. He uses Rapid Shot to attack at +22/+22/+17/+12, likely hitting 2-3 times and dealing either 2d8+30 (39 damage) or 3d8+45 (58 damage). Let's take average, 48 damage. On the dragon's first turn, he gets in the Ranger's face and breathes fire - ineffectually.
It's the ranger's turn again, and he makes another full attack (no AoO for the dragon due to Arrowmind) for another 48 damage.

The ranger is likely to win initiative, and likely to get a single round worth of attacks before the dragon either engages him in a grapple (which, as stated before, would be unlikely unless there was a story reason for it), or flies off to lick it's wounds and return later to eat his lunch. The trick then, would be to either do a minimal enough amount of damage that the dragon doesn't flee before a dangerous foe, and then drop the hammer in the next round to finish it off, or to do enough damage in the opening round to kill it outright. Again, that's assuming a fight with open sky.

When played as simple melee brutes (which is against the advice given in the MM and Draconomicon), dragons don't punch much above their CR, so that might be an option.

So perhaps a different question for the OP might be, how do you portray dragons in your world? Are they known to be big, vicious predators that never approach a fight with more than their size and hubris? If so, you might be able to get away with a fantastic set piece fight where the ranger (in the middle of the army) starts firing arrows at the beast, it lands and incinerates the area (likely leaving the ranger as the sole survivor), and then dukes it out mano-a-dragon. It may not be playing the red according to its intelligence, but rule of cool and all that. :smallsmile:

[Flickerdart]

Alternatively, how smart is the Ranger? A juvenile dragon doesn't have that much combat experience. A level 11 Ranger has more than enough experience to go around. He could most likely lead the dragon into a trap, then unleash magic Dragonbane archery of doom.
A juvenile dragon is anywhere from 26 to 50 years old. What makes you think he would have little combat experience?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Desert Half-Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertHalfOrcs), Wildshape Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) 5/ Master of Many Forms 6

Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Flyby Attack, Assume Supernatural Ability: Eye Rays

His one magical item that nobody is really aware of is a Wild Shape Amulet (Magic of Faerun, 40,000 gp), which allows him to "use his Wild Shape ability as if he were four levels higher." This would make him count as a Wildshape Ranger 9/ Master of Many Forms 6 for purposes of using Wild Shape.

He can Wild Shape into any Animal, Humanoid, Giant, Monstrous Humanoid, Fey, Vermin, and Aberration of tiny to huge size and no more than 15 HD, 9/day for up to 15 hours at a time.

A Beholder is a large aberration within his HD limit. All ten of its eye rays fall under a single Eye Rays supernatural ability, so taking this form he can use all ten eye rays. He can fire three eye rays in one direction, take part of a move action (flyby attack), fire three different eye rays in that direction, take a normal move action (double move), fire three different eye rays in that direction, take the remainder of the first move action (flyby attack), and fire his remaining eye ray in that same direction and will start the next round with that eye ray and two others pointed that way. Granted he wouldn't need to use the Charm Person or Sleep eye rays on it since it would be unaffected, but that's sill...

Eye Rays (Su), DC 15+Cha mod, ranged touch attack +10, level-based variables are as though from a 13th level caster (but it's SU so it ignores SR and cannot be dispelled or counterspelled or Spell Turning-ed).
Disintegrate, 26d6 or Fort for 5d6.
Fear, Panicked for 13 rounds or Will for Shaken for 1 round.
Finger of Death, killed or Fort for 3d6+13.
Flesh to Stone, makes it a statue if it fails the Fort save.
Inflict Moderate Wounds, 2d8+10 or Will for half.
Slow, 13 rounds or Will negates.
Telekinesis, up to 325 pounds, a large creature such as this dragon would be heavier than this. I would use it to throw a very large (325 lb.) net.

He can also take the form of a Sun Giant (MM2), a huge giant with Str 37, Dex 14, Con 25, +10 natural armor, and a 40 ft. land speed. Thrown rocks in this form deal 2d8+13 damage.

He can also turn into a War Troll (MM3), a large monstrous humanoid with Str 31, Dex 16, Con 29, +14 natural armor, Dazing Blow, and a 40 ft. land speed. If he had just one more MoMF level, he would also get its special qualities, including DR/Adamantine, SR 20, and Regeneration 9 that's only overcome by acid.

Obligatory Master of Many Forms Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-general/threads/1060931).

[Platymus Pus]

Wait a juvenile red dragon you say?
Easily, he could be 3 levels lower and kill it in a single round.
Just get splitting on a bow, you're done. Dead dragon, boom.
Also grab dead eye

[WeaselGuy]

Wait a juvenile red dragon you say?
Easily, he could be 3 levels lower and kill it in a single round.
Just get splitting on a bow, you're done. Dead dragon, boom.
Also grab dead eye

Yeah, except splitting is a +3 enhancement. Since you have to have at least a +1 weapon to add an enhancement to it, you're looking at a +1 Splitting Bow, which costs 32,350 (ish, depending on type of bow), and is over the 21,000 gp limit for an 11th level NPC, to say nothing of an 8th level NPC.

[AvatarVecna]

Wait a juvenile red dragon you say?
Easily, he could be 3 levels lower and kill it in a single round.
Just get splitting on a bow, you're done. Dead dragon, boom.
Also grab dead eye

Dead Eye's been errata'd to require BAB +14, so the level 11 character can't take it yet.

[Platymus Pus]

Dead Eye's been errata'd to require BAB +14, so the level 11 character can't take it yet.

Ah, well I was able to take it at level 10 because of gestalt, it truly boosts dmg and is needed.

Yeah, except splitting is a +3 enhancement. Since you have to have at least a +1 weapon to add an enhancement to it, you're looking at a +1 Splitting Bow, which costs 32,350 (ish, depending on type of bow), and is over the 21,000 gp limit for an 11th level NPC, to say nothing of an 8th level NPC.

Could say he got it made for half of that price by another NPC, there are magical item creation feats.

[Flickerdart]

Ah, well I was able to take it at level 10 because of gestalt, it truly boosts dmg and is needed.
What gestalt are you doing that you have better than 1:1 BAB?

[Platymus Pus]

What gestalt are you doing that you have better than 1:1 BAB?

Ranger//Fighter, get half bab from fighter, basically extra +.5 BAB per level.

[Flickerdart]

Ranger//Fighter, get half bab from fighter, basically extra +.5 BAB per level.
How do you figure you get extra half BAB on top of ranger's? The standard gestalt rules just use the higher of the two values.

[Platymus Pus]

How do you figure you get extra half BAB on top of ranger's? The standard gestalt rules just use the higher of the two values.
Highlevel campaign, so homebrew.
You're asking how I'm getting the BAB after all.

[WeaselGuy]

Could say he got it made for half of that price by another NPC, there are magical item creation feats.

NPC WBL isn't a factor so much of how much they paid for their gear, but rather how much their gear is worth. If the bow's market value is 32k, but you only paid 16k for it, it's still worth 32k, and it's that 32k that counts against the NPC's WBL.

[Flickerdart]

Highlevel campaign, so homebrew.
You're asking how I'm getting the BAB after all.
Well, that helps OP in literally no way at all.

[Platymus Pus]

NPC WBL isn't a factor so much of how much they paid for their gear, but rather how much their gear is worth. If the bow's market value is 32k, but you only paid 16k for it, it's still worth 32k, and it's that 32k that counts against the NPC's WBL.
Ah, well that sucks, though I'd make an exception for the dragon killing NPC.

Well, that helps OP in literally no way at all.
Neither do comments like that, you asked.

Dead Eye's been errata'd to require BAB +14, so the level 11 character can't take it yet.
Crossbow sniper is the alternative that has already been suggested, it's worth bringing up anyway because it's a good feat for later anyway.

[Flickerdart]

Neither do comments like that, you asked.
You said that you were able to get the feat earlier than normal. It is directly relevant to the OP to find out how - and since he cannot replicate the means, it is not a helpful option. It is considered good etiquette to mention when you are using a houseruled option not available to others, since the default assumption is that only the published rules are on the table.

[Platymus Pus]

{scrubbed}

[AvatarVecna]

The winning combo highly depends on a couple things: firstly, what the dragon's tactics are; secondly, whether this is definitely a Ranger 11, or if they're just a general "dragonslayer".

Race: Half-Orc
Class: Ranger 11
Stats (before adjustment): 14/15/10/12/13/8
Stats (after adjustment): 16/17/10/10/13/6
Feats: Point Blank Shot/Darkstalker/Plunging Strike/Rapid Shot/Knowledge Devotion/Improved Favored Enemy/Manyshot/Improved Critical (Longbow)/Improved Precise Shot
Flaws: Any 2 (other than Shaky)
Skills: Hide 14/Knowledge (Arcana) 7/Listen 12/Move Silently 14/Spot 14/Survival 14
Skill Tricks: Collector of Stories
Favored Enemy: Dragon (+6)
Equipment: Masterwork Composite Longbow (Mighty +3); Masterwork Greatsword; (4) +1 Dragonbane Magebane Arrow of Hunting; +1 Studded Leather of Silent Moves; 9145 gp

Ranger uses their Survival +21 vs dragons to track the beast back to its mountainous lair. Once they locate the lair, they wait for the dragon to fall asleep before getting in closer: moving in at half-speed (to avoid the penalty) towards a point 30 ft above the dragon, the Ranger's Move Silently check is +22, and the dragon's Listen check is +11 (accounting for the "asleep" modifier, but not for distance). Accounting for distance, these checks are generally fairly heavily in favor of the ranger, although as the ranger gets closer and closer, it gets more likely that the dragon may get lucky and detect him.

The Ranger makes a Knowledge Devotion check (+12), which should average around 22 (giving a +2 to attack and damage). At this point, assuming that the dragon is still asleep, the Ranger casts Entangle; either the dragon gets no Reflex save (according to Tippy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?49631-Saving-throws-and-unconsciousness)), or they get a save with a -5 for being Helpless. Assuming the Ranger wins on Initiative (80.5% chance of happening), then Entangle targets the dragon again; thus, the odds of the dragon being un-entangled on its first turn, which would require the dragon making the save and winning initiative (a 9.945% chance of happening), then the Ranger will get to full attack the dragon while it's entangled and flat-footed.

With a ~80% chance of getting the dragon flat-footed (with half of those also having it entangled if it gets a save, and all of them if it didn't), let's assume the Ranger gets the dragon flat-footed and entangled. First round of combat, the Ranger casts Hunter's Eye, and then full attacks with his special arrows. Attacks are made at +20/+20/+15/+10 against AC 22; damage on these attacks is 1d8 (base)+1d6 (Plunging Shot)+2d6 (Magebane)+2d6 (Dragonbane)+3d6 (Hunter's Eye SA)+22 (3 Mighty+5 Enhancement+13 Favored Enemy+1 Point Blank Shot); thus, total damage is 1d8+8d6+22, or 3d8+8d6+66 on a critical.

After running these numbers through some brute force statistic methods, I've determined the average damage of such a volley to be 182.39; the juvenile red dragon has an average HP of 168.

This method does have some elements that heavily depend on luck (the initial approach, the entangle, winning initiative), but if the Ranger gets to make their attacks like that, they've got a good chance of tearing that dragon a new sphincter, if they don't outright slay it. Plus, there's ways of guaranteeing those luck-based things go your way (Silence, Nerveskitter, etc.), but my main reason for doing this was to show that the damage reasonably take down such a dragon, with some decent set-up. Of course, a more prepared dragon will make for a tougher opponent; I can't recall if it was a spell or a weapon enchantment, but sometime while I was researching this, I came across something that gave you +1d4 damage for every buff spell currently active on someone you attack.

EDIT:


{scrubbed}

{scrubbed} Regardless, I'm unsure of the errata was more of a "that's more powerful than we thought" or more of a "we made a typo", but either way, a level 11 character can't normally take it, which means it's irrelevant to the OP's question. Let's move on, please?