Removing XP costs for crafting

[Heliomance]

I dislike rigorous XP bookkeeping and magic marts. Is there any reason why just flat removing all XP costs for item crafting is a bad idea?

[defiantdan]

Nope. Pathfinder did it quite well. it even allows mundane characters to craft with the appropriate feat. Check it out online. That's about the only thing pathfinder changed that I liked.

[Zaq]

On the one hand, XP costs are a bit of a deterrent preventing people from just straight up doubling their WBL by crafting like crazy.

On the other hand, someone who really wants to go nuts with crafting will go nuts with crafting, XP costs or no XP costs. (They may even try to get around those XP costs in some way or another.) And someone who isn't necessarily looking to go nuts with crafting will have an easier time of it without the XP costs in place.

Basically, if you trust your players to act like adults and not go completely nuts, it's unlikely to hurt anything to remove the XP costs. It's a power boost to people who really want to take advantage of it, but if your group isn't going to be ridiculous about it, you're probably fine.

[Maglubiyet]

if your group isn't going to be ridiculous about it, you're probably fine.

That's a big "IF" in some groups. The XP cost is a necessary offset to abuse, but even that isn't always effective.

[Flickerdart]

There are two things you need to do if you want crafting to be the primary means of getting gear:
1: Downtime. It takes 1 day per 1000gp of item cost. Dedicated Wrights can craft inside a bag of holding, but it will still take time to produce items. Expensive items can take months to create, and if the crafting doesn't catch up with what the PCs need to have in time, then they will be severely under-equipped.
2: Encounter rewards. Your PCs will frequently have wealth that is above WBL; to make them fall back in line with the guideline, gradually reduce encounter rewards. They won't notice that they got 2500 instead of 3000gp. You can also give them items they'll be likely to sell (for half-price). Since they craft items at half-price too, they'll be where they need to be.

I would also make magic items that grant crafting feats available - so it doesn't cost the resident casters a feat to provide items for their mundane allies. There's a cauldron that grants Brew Potion (Gremma's Cauldron, Expedition to Undermountain), so there's no reason that a magic forge for Forge Ring couldn't exist, or a magic lathe for Craft Wand or whatever.

[Heliomance]

On the one hand, XP costs are a bit of a deterrent preventing people from just straight up doubling their WBL by crafting like crazy.

On the other hand, someone who really wants to go nuts with crafting will go nuts with crafting, XP costs or no XP costs. (They may even try to get around those XP costs in some way or another.) And someone who isn't necessarily looking to go nuts with crafting will have an easier time of it without the XP costs in place.

Basically, if you trust your players to act like adults and not go completely nuts, it's unlikely to hurt anything to remove the XP costs. It's a power boost to people who really want to take advantage of it, but if your group isn't going to be ridiculous about it, you're probably fine.

If you're anticipating having crafting as the primary means of getting magic items, then giving loot modified by the expectation that they're going to double its value solves that problem easily. It also lets you do things like have the treasure gained from monsters be harvested body parts to use as crafting reagents, instead of having immersion breaking money spiders.

[Flickerdart]

It also lets you do things like have the treasure gained from monsters be harvested body parts to use as crafting reagents, instead of having immersion breaking money spiders.
I've always avoided this by increasing the rewards gained elsewhere. You don't get treasure from the spiders, but defeating them allows you to advance to a place where treasure is, either a chest or vault with "free" loot or a battle where rewards would be sensible that offers extra rewards, such as being able to avail yourself of an NPC's entire NPC WBL instead of making excuses like "he chugged 10 potions before you walked in" or "most of his money is actually invested in real estate."

[Agent 451]

I would also make magic items that grant crafting feats available - so it doesn't cost the resident casters a feat to provide items for their mundane allies. There's a cauldron that grants Brew Potion, so there's no reason that a magic forge for Forge Ring couldn't exist, or a magic lathe for Craft Wand or whatever.

There's also precedent in Races of Stone with the Dwarven forges. The Forge of Thautam lets dwarves that use it craft as if they had the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat. All of that is available in the RoS online excerpt. (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=6) But like I mentioned, dwarf only.

[DeltaEmil]

But like I mentioned, dwarf only.It's an opportunity to make use of that Use Magic Device DC 25 check to emulate being a dwarf.

[Tvtyrant]

One thing I lifted from fantasy is the idea of crafting a masterpiece. On level up your character is inspired to make a couple magic items appropriate for their level. The craft feats get chucked in favor of a generic "make magic items" feat which you can use to make the throw away kind of items on a daily basis.

[daremetoidareyo]

Adnd 2e has some lines in the DMs guide that have influenced my approach to magic items. XP loss isn't as necessary in my mind as making the crafting of a magic item a more artisitic process.

The spell that must be cast into the enchanted vessel is the one that matches the power desired. If there is no direct spell equivalent, a more powerful spell with essentially the same function can be cast instead. If there is no spell equivalent at all, the wizard must research the appropriate spell before he begins the process of making the magical item, or he must provide exotic ingredients capable of conferring the power on the item, whichever the DM decides. Thus, at this step, the wizard could cast lightning bolt on a wand to make it a wand of lightning, but he would have to research a new spell of create gauntlets of Dexterity (since no spell exists to improve Dexterity) or bathe the gauntlets in the bottled essence of hummingbird dreams (as an example).

How the heck do you get distilled hummingbird dreams? I don't know, but seems like an obvious way to get some magic guantlets, and it seems like a fun obstacle for a PC to overcome. So my craft magic items process begins with research at libraries or conversation with sages or divination spells to compile the ingredients necessary for crafting. Even non-magic characters can do this. I then include one or 2 crafting materials that require additional effort, maybe more depending on how powerful an item they want. If they want it to be a kaorti resin mask of flight that grants a deflection bonus to AC and gives a bite attack, then the PC needs to:
1.) track down kaorti resin (adventure hook/pay out the wazoo to hire people capable of such an adventure)
2.) sew feathers of a magical beast into the lining of the resin (hippogriff, coutl, etc. The exact flight maneuverability depends on the characteristics if not CR of the creature chosen. I'd lay out the options, with one option being something they can just pay for (Pegasus feathers for example) to get the standard book description ability. But maybe harpy feathers make the mask radiate a mild evil and a +1 corruption bonus to perform (sing). Or maybe if the PC uses the feathers of a swanmay, the deflection bonus is an additional +1, but there the deflection bonus is negated when the PC has cold iron on his person.
3.) The teeth of wild carnivores need to be ground down, mixed into an expensive oil and the mask needs to be cured for the minimum amount of days according to the crafting price.
4.) Some spells can be used to alleviate the need for wild crafting materials, but no magic item is actually crafted without some combination of rare material/effort/interface with "magic."

This does a few narrative things that I enjoy: a mundane can craft "magic items". The properties of the magic items aren't locked into the totemic standard in the various books, so players get the ability to customize a bit, and circumstantial things, like the availability of unicorns blood to cool your sword in, become integral part of the item's identity, which also lends itself to additional fluff and crunch options. Even with a minionmanced workforce, the PC is tied to the manufacture of his magic items, and the standard a la cart approach to the mechanics of magic items can be diminished: keeping magic special by reminding PCs that it is an art that is difficult.

[sleepyphoenixx]

On the one hand, XP costs are a bit of a deterrent preventing people from just straight up doubling their WBL by crafting like crazy.

On the other hand, someone who really wants to go nuts with crafting will go nuts with crafting, XP costs or no XP costs. (They may even try to get around those XP costs in some way or another.) And someone who isn't necessarily looking to go nuts with crafting will have an easier time of it without the XP costs in place.


This isn't quite true. Being behind the party average in XP actually means that you get more XP overall in the mid-long term. You're a little behind in the short term (but have more value in items to make up for it). Once you catch up (which doesn't usually take that long) you're the same level as the rest of the party but have more/better gear.

The only thing that XP cost prevents is players crafting a lot of items without going adventuring in between, and that is just as easily prevented by time constraints and proper use of WBL.

The only time where it's not worth it to spend XP on a persistent benefit is in a campaign to short to make up for it. And those don't tend to have the timescale for crafting anyway.

[Flickerdart]

How the heck do you get distilled hummingbird dreams?
Children are our future. People have hopes and dreams for the future. Therefore, extracting blood from hummingbird chicks satisfies the condition.

[Jay R]

I dislike rigorous XP bookkeeping and magic marts. Is there any reason why just flat removing all XP costs for item crafting is a bad idea?

What does "rigorous XP bookkeeping" mean, separate from tracking the additions and occasional subtractions from a single number?

[Troacctid]

I am in favor of completely removing xp costs as a game mechanic and never looking back. It's just not a fun mechanic for anyone. Players don't want to be behind on levels, and DMs don't want to do extra bookkeeping to account for the discrepancy in levels. Pathfinder and later editions of D&D all abandoned xp costs for a good reason.


What does "rigorous XP bookkeeping" mean, separate from tracking the additions and occasional subtractions from a single number?

Calculating the xp reward for an encounter becomes needlessly complicated and annoying when party members are all at different levels.

[Flickerdart]

I am in favor of completely removing xp costs as a game mechanic and never looking back. It's just not a fun mechanic for anyone. Players don't want to be behind on levels, and DMs don't want to do extra bookkeeping to account for the discrepancy in levels. Pathfinder and later editions of D&D all abandoned xp costs for a good reason.



Calculating the xp reward for an encounter becomes needlessly complicated and annoying when party members are all at different levels.
I agree, with a caveat - it's possible to have a fun XP system where spending it is the only way that everyone advances in character power. So the party gains 1000XP, one guy crafts a magic sword, another buys a feat, etc, and now they're back to 0 XP until they earn more and spend it on something else (more HP for instance). Of course, this is essentially a point buy system which has its own problems, but they are not insurmountable as Mutants & Masterminds shows.

But in a "chunky" power gain system like D&D, where the gulf between 999XP and 1000XP is as meaningful as between -1 HP and 1 HP, experience point costs don't work very well. They work ok but they're very finicky. Given that a lot of complains about the game stem from "PCs level up too fast and now I can't threaten them with a goblin behind a wooden door" a leveling system along the lines of "the party levels up when the DM says" would probably work much better for D&D as a whole.

[Heliomance]

What does "rigorous XP bookkeeping" mean, separate from tracking the additions and occasional subtractions from a single number?

I tend to run games using the "level up when I tell you to" method, rather than awarding carefully calculated xp.

[daremetoidareyo]

Children are our future. People have hopes and dreams for the future. Therefore, extracting blood from hummingbird chicks satisfies the condition.

That be deep, yo.

[Jay R]

Calculating the xp reward for an encounter becomes needlessly complicated and annoying when party members are all at different levels.

Then learn Excel. No set of consistent rules is needlessly complicated or annoying more than once, as long as you use the computer to do what computers do better than we do (repeat a complicated set of instructions).

[Grod_The_Giant]

Adnd 2e has some lines in the DMs guide that have influenced my approach to magic items. XP loss isn't as necessary in my mind as making the crafting of a magic item a more artisitic process.
While cool, such methods have a downside: distraction. D&D is very dependent on items for balance. If you need to spend a session doing a small quest for every one, you'll never get any plot done. Crafting can at least be done during downtime and narrative time skips.


Then learn Excel. No set of consistent rules is needlessly complicated or annoying more than once, as long as you use the computer to do what computers do better than we do (repeat a complicated set of instructions).
As a general rule, if you need a spreadsheet to make your rules work, your rules are too complicated.

[nyjastul69]

Then learn Excel. No set of consistent rules is needlessly complicated or annoying more than once, as long as you use the computer to do what computers do better than we do (repeat a complicated set of instructions).

I find this to be a poor suggestion. No one should ever have to learn excel to play a TTTPG. I'd say 'just do the frickin' math ya lazy sod'. I don't excel well though. Math is far easier. ;)

[Tvtyrant]

As a general rule, if you need a spreadsheet to make your rules work, your rules are too complicated.

I was going to make the argument that my spell books are always excel sheets, but then I realized that may prove your point.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I tend to run games using the "level up when I tell you to" method, rather than awarding carefully calculated xp.

How do you handle crafting and XP costs with that system? PF style?

[Heliomance]

How do you handle crafting and XP costs with that system? PF style?
That's the main reason I made this thread. Neither have yet come up in one of my games, but I'm sure they will eventually. I'm really not sure what to do about XP costs for spells and things - I certainly don't want to be handing out free Wishes.

[Berenger]

I use the "Level up when I tell you." approach, too.

Every crafter gains the "Craft XP Reserve" Class Special as described here (http://www.d20resources.com/future.d20.srd/classes/engineer.php) for free whenever they gain a new level. If those XP don't satisfy their needs, they may purchase a special feat to double (triple, quadruple...) the amount of XP gained in this way.

[nyjastul69]

That's the main reason I made this thread. Neither have yet come up in one of my games, but I'm sure they will eventually. I'm really not sure what to do about XP costs for spells and things - I certainly don't want to be handing out free Wishes.

Why don't you use the 1xp=5gp translation? It's worked well in my games when we use a nonxp leveling system.

[Flickerdart]

I use the "Level up when I tell you." approach, too.

Every crafter gains the "Craft XP Reserve" Class Special as described here (http://www.d20resources.com/future.d20.srd/classes/engineer.php) for free whenever they gain a new level. If those XP don't satisfy their needs, they may purchase a special feat to double (triple, quadruple...) the amount of XP gained in this way.
For the lazy, that's 100*level XP every time a level is gained, and all unspent XP are lost when another level is gained.

That seems fairly generous - since you only need 1/25th of the base price in XP, the 21,000 total craft XP gained over a 1-20 career results in a nice 525,000gp worth of crafted junk. So you can't provide the entire party with stuff, but distributed among a 4-man group that's 131kgp per character, or a 17% increase in character wealth.

[Zaq]

If you're anticipating having crafting as the primary means of getting magic items, then giving loot modified by the expectation that they're going to double its value solves that problem easily. It also lets you do things like have the treasure gained from monsters be harvested body parts to use as crafting reagents, instead of having immersion breaking money spiders.

If you do this (by which I mean having crafting being the primary means of getting magic items), you have to be very generous with the downtime you allow the party to have. Crafting takes a long time, and even having a Dedicated Wright in a Portable Hole only helps so much. One day per 1,000 gp of price starts adding up quickly when you're making more and more expensive (level-appropriate) gear, and then you have to multiply that by however many people are in the party, since everyone is going to want to have new toys.

For example, say you've got a four-person party—even just crafting a basic +2 stat item for everyone will take 16 days total, or more than half a month. Making a +4 stat item for everyone, on the other hand, will take 64 days, or just over two months. And that's just one item per party member, and not an especially interesting item at that. You'll really have to budget a lot of downtime if you're expecting the party to turn a few cartloads of monster parts into WBL-appropriate gear, and the amount of downtime you allow will have to steadily increase as the PCs can afford to make more and more expensive items.

[Flickerdart]

You'll really have to budget a lot of downtime if you're expecting the party to turn a few cartloads of monster parts into WBL-appropriate gear, and the amount of downtime you allow will have to steadily increase as the PCs can afford to make more and more expensive items.
This actually doesn't strike me as that much of a problem from a verisimilitude perspective - low-level heroes handle things like common goblin attacks, but the various apocalypses that 20th level badasses deal with don't exactly pop up every day.

[Surpriser]

Another thing to consider: Retroactive crafting via backstory. If you remove XP without a replacement, expect things like "Btw, all my equipment was hand-crafted by me during the last few years, so that's why I have about double the WBL at the beginning of the game".

So either only allow crafting after the campaign has started (starting equipment is always measured in market value) or place additional restrictions on crafting. The feats required are a start, but you could also combine it with some sort of skill checks - now you have to invest a significant portion of your ressources to get that increase in wealth.

[Hunter Noventa]

In my experience the biggest obstacle to crafting magic items has always been having the downtime available. but then we're usually running campaigns that end up with 'Save the World from Threat X' being the end goal and don't have time to hang around. So removing the XP costs for crafting times really isn't a problem.

Now, the XP costs for casting spells is another matter. Some kind of 'Magical Exhaustion' debuff that functions in a way similar to negative levels perhaps?