human druid with Vow of poverty from lv 1 vs human druid with able learner

[dehro]

Is the tradeoff worth it? I think so. If I understand it correctly, the only Vow of poverty bonus I miss out on if I take it at the third level instead of first, is a single exalted bonus feat
Compared to the benefits of able learner, that should be a small price to pay, amirite?
Or am I missing stuff and would I lose other benefits as well?

[defiantdan]

From an optimization standpoint Vow of Poverty is bad. it doesn't matter when you take it. Even a druid is better to have a wbl and buy magic items than to not have any at all despite how gear independent the class can function. If you are playing in a low magic or no magic mart campaign then take it as early as possible or just ask your dm to make it a feature of the game.

[dehro]

That... Doesn't really answer my specific doubt
Optimisation is secondary to fluff for me.

[JeenLeen]

EDIT: ninja'd on the VoP power level stuff; I was writing this when the above posts were made

I think it depends on your focus. If you want a lot of cross-class skills, then over time that would probably be more useful than an Exalted feat. If you think you'll only want a few and not try to keep them maxed out, then the feat might be better.
I recall when I considered VoP that a lot of the Exalted feats didn't look that incredible, so while I would want them, missing out on one wouldn't be a big deal.

Also, as I'm sure others will note, Vow of Poverty is generally considered fairly underpowered compared to magic items. But if you are a shapeshifted druid (and the DM doesn't allow the magic items qualities that let you carry over armor and gear, which seems a reasonable ban) then VoP might be better for you while shifted. And druid is strong enough to take the hit of VoP to power.

Two comments on feats that might be wrong due to misremembering:
1. There's also the feat, I think Exalted, based on the effect of having a romantic relationship with a fey. It gives you, amongst other things, a bonus skill point per level. That could help counter not having Able Learner. I think it's in Book of Exalted Deeds, at least, but if not then probably in Complete Mage or Complete Arcane.
2. There's a feat, I think called Touch of Golden Ice but it might be something else. I think it adds some sort of attack (an affliction?) to your touch. If that would apply to your natural attacks in shifted forms, that sounds nice.

EDIT 2: I realized I misread the opening post to a degree. It looks like you consider the skill points to be greater than a single feat, and you mainly want to make sure that there isn't anything else you miss out on beyond that single feat. Sorry for my mistake. Unfortunately, I'm away from books, so I can't check, but that sounds right based on my memory. If you took it at, say, 16th level, would you get everything beyond the bonus feats you missed at previous levels? I forget how retroactive Vow of Poverty is.

[dehro]

As far as I can tell. The exalted feats seem to be the only retroactive bit, but not being sure of that was why I opened the thread.
I'm starting at lv 5, I'm thinking human, hence the doubt

[eggynack]

You'd mostly be missing out on first level nymph's kiss, which is a pretty substantial loss, and you'd actually be missing out on a second exalted feat as well, at second level, and that one would probably be exalted companion. In the long run, you're not actually missing out on a lot outside of the nymph's kiss thing, because a VoP character will inevitably take every exalted feat that's worth anything, and still have time to pick up crap, but from your level-perspective, you'll be experiencing some pretty serious downsides, and one of those downsides will even be skill based.

I'm also not really sure what you seek to gain through able learner. The druid skill list is expansive enough that you don't really need to make cross-class skills more accessible unless you have a specific goal in mind, and even if you do have such a goal, there may be other ways to reach it. Able learner doesn't even allow you to be that good at the skills it grants access to, due to the cap still in effect. So, why do you want able learner? If you're not getting a pretty specific benefit, then I'd advise taking VoP early. Part of the reason it's a reasonable feat on a druid is that their exalted feat list doesn't crap out as early as that of most classes, and what feats it does grant are occasionally quite good.

[dehro]

The reason for able learner is that right now we're a bunch of ignoramuses with a very limited knowledge base... I Could have spent a few points on knowledges other than nature.

[eggynack]

The reason for able learner is that right now we're a bunch of ignoramuses with a very limited knowledge base... I Could have spent a few points on knowledges other than nature.
A valid thing, I think, though still probably worth less than the two feats you're losing (and, in effect, three feats you're spending), of whom one is time sensitive. You're basically facing four separate opportunity costs here. In addition to the three I noted, which are the two exalted feats, the timing of nymph's kiss, and the expenditure of a normal feat, you're also spending these skill points in knowledges that you're going to be only half-skilled at, instead of on already solid druid skills.

Assuming a druid with, say, six skill points a level, that would likely mean giving up one out of, perhaps, spellcraft, concentration, handle animal, spot, and listen (under the assumption that the sixth is necessarily knowledge (nature), and can't be given up in this context), in order to half-max two knowledge skills. If you bump the number to seven, then that just means adding diplomacy or even the occasionally viable survival to the list. Point is, you're losing a lot in this exchange, and not getting a whole lot. If you want to make the trade anyway, that's your prerogative, but I doubt the trade is an optimal one, even in a knowledge limited party.

[Flickerdart]

Able Learner is not a very good feat because of the way 3.5's skill system works - unless you max a skill, it will not be hitting the DCs you want. Its only use is when you are multiclassing and therefore have raised the caps of skills you want to max, but they are still CC for you on the class you actually want to advance.

However. There are very few worthwhile [Exalted] feats available, and you will eventually run out if you reach the high levels. If you really want Able Learner for whatever and your campaign will go past level 12 or so, you won't miss out on much.

[eggynack]

However. There are very few worthwhile [Exalted] feats available, and you will eventually run out if you reach the high levels. If you really want Able Learner for whatever and your campaign will go past level 12 or so, you won't miss out on much.
Still true for druids, but substantially less true. Assuming you can eventually meet the prerequisites for words of creation, a progression looks something like:

1: nymph's kiss
2: exalted companion
4: intuitive attack
6: touch of golden ice
8: exalted wild shape
10: words of creation
12: nimbus of light
14: sanctify natural attack
16: and here's where you cross the border into out and out filler with animal friend, crap-vows, gift of discernment, and various other bad feats.

Point I'm trying to make is, while some of the feats on that list aren't all that good by normal feat standards, there is a measurable value added by them, and both slowing down your progression early, and missing feats entirely late, are real issues. Notably, while the quality of some of those feats is low, it's not necessarily that much lower than able learner.

[Hiro Quester]

And to be fair, there are quite a few cross class skills that benefit a druid besides knowledge, that it would've good to be able to have cheaply.

For wildshape:
balance, tumble, climb, jump, escape artist.

If you scout in wildshape:
search, move silently, also disable device perhaps

For summons:
speak language (learn all elementals' languages).

For general activities:
UMD (being able to use wands from other classes gets useful).
Sense motive (complement your diplomacy and your high wisdom),
gather information (e.g. from your network of animal spies)
intimidate (being a scary bear only gets you so far without a roll).

That's not an insignificant list. Being able to cheaply improve rolls in these areas might be worth one of those other exalted feats.

[eggynack]

Yeah, but druid skill point supply is limited. As you transfer points over from usual druid skills to potential cross-class druid skills, you threaten to cut into pretty critical stuff. And besides, if you want it, there are ways to pull over some of those skills outside of able learner, so if you just want a couple, then there are sometimes better methods. For example, speak language is best gained through voice of the city, hide/move silently are much better gained with nightbringer initiate, and intimidate can be partially picked up at a good rate with half-orc substitution levels. These aren't always options, but depending on circumstance, they can be good ones. In any case, there are a lot of things being traded off here for what I think are relatively meager benefits. Skills are useful, but I don't think they're worth three feats, even if two are exalted, especially at relatively early levels. At five, ditching those exalted feats actually counts for something.

[dehro]

Nymph's kiss is precluded to me..Because of reasons

[eggynack]

Nymph's kiss is precluded to me..Because of reasons
That would reduce impact some, but not massively. Just move every feat in the progression I gave down one, perhaps after some rearranging if you value things differently (that wasn't even necessarily the perfectly optimal arrangement. I was just listing the feats in a reasonable order), and then you'll pretty easily see what you're giving up at any given level. Do note, however, that exalted wild shape is pretty locked in at 8, and that words of creation is possibly locked depending on the intelligence and charisma you can pick up. If what you're losing based on that information is worth what you think you're gaining, then there ya go. If not, then go the other route. Pretty simple stuff, when you get down to it, though my personal valuation swings heavily towards taking VoP early in this case.

[Hiro Quester]

I'm having trouble seeing the value of words of creation for a druid. Unless you do item crafting, the only thing it does is free extend on animal summons (and other conjurations).

I've only really thought of it as a bard thing.

But the main thing is losing two exalted feats. Bonus at first and second level for VOP. That's a lot to sacrifice for more skills.

[chaos_redefined]

If the reason you want Able Learner is Knowledge skills, then I would suggest Education instead. It makes all knowledge skills class skills, and it gives you a small bonus to some of them.

Overall, I'd suggest VoP at third, Education/Able Learner at first. The bonus exalted feats are kinda meh.

[eggynack]

I'm having trouble seeing the value of words of creation for a druid. Unless you do item crafting, the only thing it does is free extend on animal summons (and other conjurations).

I've only really thought of it as a bard thing.

You don't actually get an extend on summons because it's not of the creation subschool. However, that is indeed the main benefit, and it is, along with the CL bonus to good spells, better than the vast majority of exalted feats. You're extending just about all of the fog spells, including wall of smoke and obscuring snow, as well as stuff like wood wose, phantom stag, and a bunch of other stuff. It's not a massive benefit, but it's good stuff, well worth an exalted feat, even if I would never recommend it for a normal feat slot.

The bonus exalted feats are kinda meh.
Well, yeah, but druids do better with them than most. You get the best unique exalted feats of anyone, and pretty broad access to the more generic stuff.

[dextercorvia]

Maybe pick Jack of All Trades as your 3rd level feat. That way you don't delay your Exalted Feat progression, and you don't have to actually spend skill points on those skills. There are a few other (and better) ways to use Knowledge skills untrained, but I think they all require at least one class level in (not druid).

Edit: It has a prereq of Int 13, but if you don't have that, then you weren't going to be hitting very many Knowledge check DCs anyway.

[ZamielVanWeber]

You don't actually get an extend on summons because it's not of the creation subschool.
IIRC Conjure Ice Beast is, although I don't remember if druids get that.

[eggynack]

IIRC Conjure Ice Beast is, although I don't remember if druids get that.
They do, but I'm not sure that anything you get is particularly worth the preparation, especially because the line tends to interact unfavorably with druid summoning build stuff.