View Full Version : XP in Battle
One Skunk Todd
2007-04-12, 02:30 PM
How does XP work in situations like this? Everyone for themself? Do hobgoblins give enough XP that it's likely to matter? Would levelling in the middle of the battle be useful?
jindra34
2007-04-12, 02:40 PM
One the hobos only would give experience to the low level soldiers and clerics
Two you only get experience at the end of a battle and can only level up one level at a time...
Sethis
2007-04-12, 02:42 PM
Party Exp, No, No, Very very yes. Especially if a good class ability is aquired. Un foiurtunately, It can't happen unless battle stops and then resumes. Evena inute out of combat can constitute the "end" of combat.
Goblins would give no exp at all to the the party. The only EXP which could have been aquired was from things which were actual challenges, V disintegrating the horse, if Roy kills the dragon, Xykon's clones, etc.
Ghasts might give exp, depending on the party level, but they are fighting much weaker monsters in this case. Depending on how the DM adjuncates it, they may get exp for the large number of monsters (CR increases relatively to number), but unless they actually have a chance of loosing 1 on 1, they basically won't be getting anything.
Nightmarenny
2007-04-12, 02:46 PM
Party Exp, No, No, Very very yes. Especially if a good class ability is aquired. Un foiurtunately, It can't happen unless battle stops and then resumes. Evena inute out of combat can constitute the "end" of combat.
Goblins would give no exp at all to the the party. The only EXP which could have been aquired was from things which were actual challenges, V disintegrating the horse, if Roy kills the dragon, Xykon's clones, etc.
Ghasts might give exp, depending on the party level, but they are fighting much weaker monsters in this case. Depending on how the DM adjuncates it, they may get exp for the large number of monsters (CR increases relatively to number), but unless they actually have a chance of loosing 1 on 1, they basically won't be getting anything.Not all Hobgoblins are going to be first level.
Lemur
2007-04-12, 03:56 PM
In a situation like this, just wing it. Giving ad hoc experience eliminates a lot of needless hassle and makes more sense in any case.
The DM would deliver experience more on how much they contributed during the battle, as opposed to how many hobs they actually killed.
NeonRonin
2007-04-12, 07:01 PM
It is very hard to calculate XP in a siege such as this- I know, I've had to do it myself. I think it all depends on the severity of the situation and how the characters handle themselves. Roleplay XP will factor heavily into this, IMHO.
Krytha
2007-04-12, 07:24 PM
What about Elan? He's STRUGGLING against 2 hobs!
Copacetic
2007-04-12, 07:26 PM
So? he's a bard, Bards are not melee. If he had someelse to buff up it would be no prob.
Krytha
2007-04-12, 07:36 PM
Yeah, but he isn't currently barding, he's swashbuckling. THere's TONS of people he could be giving +1 to right now, but he's trying to fight it out with his dinky rapier.
edit: scratch that, his rapier is +3 and he's still working way too hard.
jindra34
2007-04-12, 07:42 PM
Yeah, but he isn't currently barding, he's swashbuckling. THere's TONS of people he could be giving +1 to right now, but he's trying to fight it out with his dinky rapier.
edit: scratch that, his rapier is +3 and he's still working way too hard.
the rapier is keen but that still doesn't make him nessecarily a good fighter... now thats sad... he should try bardic music when he can manage the space...
the_tick_rules
2007-04-12, 07:44 PM
how does the xp work for this battle, however the giant feels like it does. also, as soon as they stop trying to stab him elan could use his bardic powers, he's gotta cover his own butt first.
Copacetic
2007-04-12, 07:57 PM
Yeah, but he isn't currently barding, he's swashbuckling. THere's TONS of people he could be giving +1 to right now, but he's trying to fight it out with his dinky rapier.
edit: scratch that, his rapier is +3 and he's still working way too hard.
Level 1 swashbuckler, hello?
chibibar
2007-04-12, 11:38 PM
You see things like this is where the beauty of gaming comes into play. A GM can award exp pretty much for anything really. S/He doesn't have to award exp solely on pure combat alone.
Here are some way GM can award exp (also combined from list above)
1. Roleplaying - are there any roleplaying involve? troop morale? leading? you can get exp from leading troops too :)
2. The siege as a whole. Will the enemy win if the PC was never there? do they make a difference? how much of a difference? (exp here)
3. tactics and leadership - this is more precise than roleplaying. does the PC provide information and tactics to help to survive the siege?
There are many others :) this is why table top is always better than computer version since it is not as restrictive :)
piestandsalone
2007-04-13, 12:04 AM
DM's disjunction and real challenges(dragon,clones, maybe ghouls,ghasts or flying zombified angels?)
That's it
Hiruma
2007-04-13, 09:33 AM
I'm no D&D expert but can the bardic music even be heard over the chaos of the battle?
factotum
2007-04-13, 09:45 AM
How does XP work in situations like this? Everyone for themself? Do hobgoblins give enough XP that it's likely to matter? Would levelling in the middle of the battle be useful?
As others have said, levelling in the middle of the battle doesn't do anything. If you didn't have that, you could end up with the ludicrous situation where a level 1 guy falls off a cliff onto a monster, killing it, and the XP gained levels him up enough that he survives the fall! (This actually happened to a friend of mine during a D&D campaign that was largely being played for laughs, hence the DM was being a bit fast and loose with the rules--the hit points he gained from levelling up were just enough to allow him to survive the fall damage).
chibibar
2007-04-13, 10:08 AM
I'm no D&D expert but can the bardic music even be heard over the chaos of the battle?
technically yea.. depending on your and DM interpretation. The bardic music is AoE magical effect, as long it is in range within music you can hear it.
Kreistor
2007-04-13, 10:20 AM
Yes, in situations like this the answer is "Ad Hoc Experience Awards". You can find a discussion on this in the DMG Rewards section. Not everytyhing does (or is intended to) fall under the limited scope of the XP reward table.
chibibar
2007-04-13, 10:35 AM
Yes, in situations like this the answer is "Ad Hoc Experience Awards". You can find a discussion on this in the DMG Rewards section. Not everytyhing does (or is intended to) fall under the limited scope of the XP reward table.
Yup. until VR AI GM system gets developed, tabletop gaming will always be one of the best gaming out there :)
One the hobos only would give experience to the low level soldiers and clerics
Good point. Hypocritical when I myself say this, but I see your point.
Yeril
2007-04-14, 08:50 AM
they would give exp for higher level ups, hobgoblins are only CR 1 if theres two or three of them, so if beklar killed two or three of them, then no exp, but the fact his, hes fighting off dozens and killing hundreds of them, that boosts the CR.
100 hobgoblins is not 100 cr 1, its like 1 cr 15
Tiako
2007-04-14, 09:03 AM
What about Elan? He's STRUGGLING against 2 hobs!
That's because he ran out of puns. Earlier we saw him kill an otherwise unwounded hobgoblin in one hit.
Douglas
2007-04-14, 09:28 AM
100 hobgoblins is not 100 cr 1, its like 1 cr 15
DMG page 37 disagrees.
Sisqui
2007-04-14, 09:44 AM
Maybe Belkar won't get combat XP for killing the pile of hobgoblins, but he should get roleplaying XP for his "warlord" remarks at the top. :smallbiggrin:
Raxtenko
2007-04-14, 10:20 AM
Yes teh remark was quite funny.
Mewtarthio
2007-04-14, 12:06 PM
As others have said, levelling in the middle of the battle doesn't do anything. If you didn't have that, you could end up with the ludicrous situation where a level 1 guy falls off a cliff onto a monster, killing it, and the XP gained levels him up enough that he survives the fall! (This actually happened to a friend of mine during a D&D campaign that was largely being played for laughs, hence the DM was being a bit fast and loose with the rules--the hit points he gained from levelling up were just enough to allow him to survive the fall damage).
Or you could use the KotoR level up trick: Fully recover all HP upon levelling up, and "save" your XP so that you only level up during boss fights.
Dimlos
2007-04-14, 12:20 PM
With so many Hobgoblins, wouldn't it be apporpriate to give them the swarm subtype? So lets say Belkar fought at least five Hobgoblin Swarms, and they could be seen as a CR8 or CR9 each. Thats a hefty chunk of XP for a 12th Level Character.
Zynex
2007-04-14, 02:04 PM
Asked a couple of seasoned DM's from my neck of the woods, and they also concluded that you would not get XP from slaying a slew of low level monsters if your level is so high enough, like 15 to epic maybe, not too sure.
Kreistor
2007-04-15, 12:16 AM
With so many Hobgoblins, wouldn't it be apporpriate to give them the swarm subtype? So lets say Belkar fought at least five Hobgoblin Swarms, and they could be seen as a CR8 or CR9 each. Thats a hefty chunk of XP for a 12th Level Character.
The Swarm would deal automatic damage, which actually models the 5%chance of automatic damage quite well.
But the Swarm subtype would remove certain effects. Belkar could move freely through the enemy without provoking AoO's. That would give him a free ride to a ladder and a way out.
So, I might run it as a swarm, but I would limit Belkar to 5' movement per round unless he wants to take automatic damage for movement. That does simplify the entire problem at the table. Since solo stuff tends to bog down the rest of the group, simplification can be a good way to keep the game moving.
asland32
2007-04-15, 05:28 PM
I don't understand why the hobbos are worth 0xp. Each one is 1/2 CR, but with 100+ of them wouldn't that add up to a CR that would actually give xp? Sure we don't see Belkar killing each and everyone, but we know that there are in excess of 10,000 out there. How many hobgobs does it take to build a mountain?
Green Bean
2007-04-15, 05:37 PM
I don't understand why the hobbos are worth 0xp. Each one is 1/2 CR, but with 100+ of them wouldn't that add up to a CR that would actually give xp? Sure we don't see Belkar killing each and everyone, but we know that there are in excess of 10,000 out there. How many hobgobs does it take to build a mountain?
Total CR is based on the group as a whole, but XP given is based on the individual monster.
Douglas
2007-04-15, 06:00 PM
Yes, it adds up to an Encounter Level that is challenging. XP is based on the individual CR of each enemy, however. A single CR 1/2 enemy gives 0 XP to a level 13 character, and the only way the number of them gets taken into account is that Belkar gets another 0 xp for each of them. Read page 37 of the DMG for reference.
Mewtarthio
2007-04-15, 08:35 PM
However, the characters should get ad hoc XP if the encounter is more difficult that the CR indicates. For instance, a twentieth-level Wizard could easily take down a fifteenth-level Barbarian, but if said Wizard is transported to a Null Magic Plane, the fight is a lot harder. More to the point, a first-level Commoner would yield no experience whatsoever, but four hundred million first-level Commoners rushing him at once after he's been DimAnchored somehow present slightly more of a challenge.
The reverse is also true: Even if a first-level Barbarian should technically get XP for bashing a random Commoner's head in with his greatclub (according to CR calculations), he really shouldn't.
Kreistor
2007-04-16, 01:59 AM
Read page 37 of the DMG for reference.
And you should read page 39, Assigning Ad Hoc XP Awards.
Yeril
2007-04-16, 02:12 AM
hmm.. yeah.. well atleast he still gets roleplaying exp :smallbiggrin:
don't see many of those mountians of hobgoblins these days do you? excluding the ramp of hobgoblins of course...
Yeril
2007-04-16, 02:15 AM
also what does Hoc stand for?
factotum
2007-04-16, 03:59 AM
"ad hoc" is Latin for "for this"--an abbreviation of "for this specific purpose".
When I read the section in the DMG about assigning XP I see do not see a boolean stating "If the difference in CRs exceed this value, award no experience." The chart simply states it does not support handling wide-gap awards. The only mention of nullifying XP awards is when it says "An encounter so easy that it uses up none of the PCs resources shouldn't result in any XP award at all." Belkar is; Scratched. Up. He's away from the wall. The hobbos can rally eight around him at a time. They have flanking bonuses. They have all kinds of chances to trip, disarm, etc. They have advantages in both size and numbers through which to grapple him down for a coup. He is; At. Risk. Any DM who wouldn't award him XP is rules lawyering an excuse not to.
But this whole argument is a non-issue. When Belkar kills a kobold, he shows everyone his sexy new hat, not his new skill points. Belkar's obsession is not with levelling, but with killing. If the party doesn't say anything, he won't know because he won't check. He'll be glowing from the slaughter he just had.
He calls goblins xp chunks, and tried killing a mouse for XP to catch up to everyone else, but his motivation for fighting isn't levelling. He drew Miko into the battle with the intent of dying to make her lose her Paladin powers, no XP at all to be gained whatsoever. Belkar fights with lust for death and ruination, not self-advancement.
When the party reacts to him in that manner they are operating from their own perspective of Belkar. Defining him based on that is no different than defining V's gender based on party comments.
Mewtarthio
2007-04-17, 09:22 PM
When I read the section in the DMG about assigning XP I see do not see a boolean stating "If the difference in CRs exceed this value, award no experience." The chart simply states it does not support handling wide-gap awards. The only mention of nullifying XP awards is when it says "An encounter so easy that it uses up none of the PCs resources shouldn't result in any XP award at all." Belkar is; Scratched. Up. He's away from the wall. The hobbos can rally eight around him at a time. They have flanking bonuses. They have all kinds of chances to trip, disarm, etc. They have advantages in both size and numbers through which to grapple him down for a coup. He is; At. Risk. Any DM who wouldn't award him XP is rules lawyering an excuse not to.
But this whole argument is a non-issue. When Belkar kills a kobold, he shows everyone his sexy new hat, not his new skill points. Belkar's obsession is not with levelling, but with killing. If the party doesn't say anything, he won't know because he won't check. He'll be glowing from the slaughter he just had.
He calls goblins xp chunks, and tried killing a mouse for XP to catch up to everyone else, but his motivation for fighting isn't levelling. He drew Miko into the battle with the intent of dying to make her lose her Paladin powers, no XP at all to be gained whatsoever. Belkar fights with lust for death and ruination, not self-advancement.
When the party reacts to him in that manner they are operating from their own perspective of Belkar. Defining him based on that is no different than defining V's gender based on party comments.
You may have a point. After all he was willing to accept permanent level loss to see Miko fall.
Silverlocke980
2007-04-19, 05:35 PM
You know, the way I'd do it...
Due to sheer number of hobgoblins killed, I'd probably give Belkar a crapload of experience, maybe just give him his next level. Belkar just singlehandedly wiped out more hobgoblins than anybody other than Hinjo, and Hinjo's got the DoomWolf working for him. Belkar?
Belkar did it himself, without shoes. That takes guts!
As for Elan, I'd give him experience no matter how much trouble he was having. He's trying, and for his character, that's really saying something.
Besides, all of you are forgetting something- Elan's run out of puns. Without puns, he isn't a Dashing Swordsman- he's a Bard with a +3 rapier. That's some bad odds. That requirement that he must have a witty phrase of some sort can apparently be quite punishing in long battles, since thinking a funny joke on-the-spot while somebody tries to kill you is rather hard.
Haley I'd give a lot of experience to, since she's an archer on the wall during a siege, and that's a really important job. For being willing to sit back and assist other archers rather than stand with her beloved, I'd give her roleplay XP.
Roy gets a crapload of roleplay XP, probably more than anybody else other than Belkar. I mean, he just leaped on top of an undead dragon, for no reason other than to fight his long-time nemesis.
That's awesome.
V I'd give some XP too for the plan to cover the breach, since that was excellent thinking, and then I'd give him the DK experience. Sure, an accident blew away the Death Knight, but V was actively engaged in it. Free XP!
Durkon? Actually, that brings up a point. Where is Durkon, anyway? He's missing out on all the roleplay XP out there!
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