Paladin of an Evil God

[Vhaidara]

So, as far as I can tell, Clerics are limited in their choice of gods by their alignment. However, I'm not seeing any such restriction on other Divine Casters. Like Paladins. In particular, the PF Paladin had the clause in the Code of Conduct about "association with evil = Fall".

So, I had the idea of a LG Orc Paladin, Int and Wis 5, who follows a CE god. When people ask him about it, he can't believe that they are so ignorant as to think that his god is Evil. I mean, look at him!

So, did I miss something obvious, or is this actually legal?

[Red Fel]

It's complicated.

On the one hand, as noted (and debated) in other threads, a Paladin need not worship any deity in particular. (Note, however, that he must if he takes Variant Channeling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/variant-channeling).) As a result, he - like any non-Cleric class - is more or less unrestricted as to which deities he worships. And it's not unfair for an Orc, regardless of alignment, to want to worship one of his racial deities - most of whom are CE.

On the other hand, however, there's the fluff side of worship. It rarely gets explored in most games, but being a worshiper of a deity usually involves acts of worship. These are elaborated in some books, but generally, Evil deities expect Evil acts of worship, such as sacrifice, slaughter, and torture. While it is less incumbent upon the non-Cleric follower of a deity to perform these things, certain cursory acts - even as minor as a mumbled prayer or yearly offering - are generally somewhat expected. And I don't, for example, see a Paladin offering a prayer along the lines of "May all of our enemies suffer dearly before they are granted the mercy of a slow death."

So while it might be possible for a Paladin, RAW-wise, to worship an Evil deity, he could not participate in most (if any) acts of worship integral to his faith. Further, he could neither proselytize nor emulate said deity; while he could respect or revere it for various reasons, he wouldn't want to be that Evil.

Nor can you dismiss it on the grounds of ignorance. Integral to the Paladin is the ability to determine right from wrong. Even if he is too daft to understand it, his powers do; when he commits wrong, his abilities go poof. If he willingly follows the tenets of Evil, he'll lose his powers before he even has the chance to use them.

One option, for example, is to have a Paladin revere Gruumsh in the same way that you offer respect to your sharp, belligerent, racist grandfather. He's family, so you love him, and he's the patriarch, so you respect him, but you tend to tune out when he starts ranting about people, and you only stay long enough to extend well wishes and love and respect, because you just know he's going to lay into you for your taste in music or clothes or whatever... But he's your grandpa. That connection works. An Orc Paladin would respect his racial progenitor, respect the deity who - despite being really very Evil - still watches out for his chosen race. He wouldn't like him, but he would respect him and offer token prayers.

[Kurald Galain]

If you follow an evil god, that means that you're associating with evil, therefore you fall.

[Vhaidara]

@Red Fel: Interesting perspectives. I will have to consider when I am less exhausted.


If you follow an evil god, that means that you're associating with evil, therefore you fall.


In particular, the PF Paladin had the clause in the Code of Conduct about "association with evil = Fall".

Read plox

[Grooke]

I don't know if any such thing exists in PF, but 3.5 has evil variants of paladins such as the Paladin of Tyranny for such purposes.

[the_david]

One of the earlier adventurepaths had an article about Asmodeus that told us that he liked to grant LG heroes paladin class levels just to see them fall. I thought it was an interesting concept but unfortunately James Jacobs had to spread the word around that this was not true and that this just accidently slipped through editing. (As well as the horrible monsters followers of Asmodeus would be able to summon.)

There was some weird philosophy behind it, like a follower only following the lawful part of lawful evil dogma being unlawful which would mean that followers of chaotic deities would be lawful when they follow the dogma of their deity.

Short answer: Alignments are stupid.

And paladins of Asmodeus are awesome.

[Vhaidara]

I don't know if any such thing exists in PF, but 3.5 has evil variants of paladins such as the Paladin of Tyranny for such purposes.

I'm very specifically going for a LG paladin of a CE god who doesn't think his god is evil. As far as rights, I actually had a few ideas.

Why are you drinking the blood of the bandit you just killed?
He was a wicked man, but by carrying part of his spirit, passed through his blood, I can help to purify it

Also, I seem to disagree with Mr. Jacobs on pretty much every fluff related issue. Wasn't he the one who said "Yes, Necromancy is fundamentally evil, and there is no grey with it, it is absolutely known and confirmed so that if you make a zombie you are evil and must be purged with fire", rather than allowing the interesting character idea of the Good Necromancer who gives fallen warriors another chance to serve their cause, or Neutral Necromancer who is as much businessman as mage, trading money for future use of a man's body (when he's done with it, of course)?

[Grooke]

Dabbling with necromancy without falling actually has precedent in the form of the Bone Knight in Five Nations (Eberron). You retain your paladin abilities and only loose the ability to continue advancement.

For the rest though (and alignment in general in my opinion), if you can convince the DM, anything goes. And like you say, it opens up a lot of interesting concepts.

[SowZ]

I'd imagine it would be fine if you weren't actually that devout, like most religious followers. If you didn't really associate with the clergy or commit evil acts of worship, I see no reason it wouldn't fly. Just get your power from a general cause rather than a deity and be the kind of person who checkmarks the religion he was raised with on Census forms and says, "Oh, yeah, I guess I'm a Grumm****e," if it comes up in conversation.

[grarrrg]

Dabbling with necromancy without falling actually has precedent in the form of the Bone Knight in Five Nations (Eberron).

Some precedent in 3.5 maybe, but it's a Pathfinder thread though.


I'd imagine it would be fine if you weren't actually that devout, like most religious followers. If you didn't really associate with the clergy or commit evil acts of worship, I see no reason it wouldn't fly. Just get your power from a general cause rather than a deity and be the kind of person who checkmarks the religion he was raised with on Census forms and says, "Oh, yeah, I guess I'm a Grumm****e," if it comes up in conversation.

Yeah, but the whole point of the 'religious' classes is that they get their powers from those that they worship.
The flip-side of that being a deity isn't going to just give _anyone_ power, he's only going to want to give it to those who _actually_ worship him and believe in his goals.
So you can check the "evil death-murder god of death-killing" box all you want for your LG character, just don't expect to get any 'divine granted' abilities from doing such.

[Milo v3]

I'd personally allow it, paladins have nothing to do with religion unless the setting houserules it to be so, so your religious practices should be your own business as long as you don't commit evil as part of those practices.


Also, I seem to disagree with Mr. Jacobs on pretty much every fluff related issue. Wasn't he the one who said "Yes, Necromancy is fundamentally evil, and there is no grey with it, it is absolutely known and confirmed so that if you make a zombie you are evil and must be purged with fire", rather than allowing the interesting character idea of the Good Necromancer who gives fallen warriors another chance to serve their cause, or Neutral Necromancer who is as much businessman as mage, trading money for future use of a man's body (when he's done with it, of course)?

Yeah.... Which really doesn't help when there is a nation of undead and necromancers in the same setting, and there are undead that even he admits aren't auto-evil.

[(Un)Inspired]

If you follow an evil god, that means that you're associating with evil, therefore you fall.

Are you sure? What does the word "associate" mean? I'm not totally clear? Is there a definitive line we can draw saying "when one does this or behaves in this manner they are associating and when they don't take said actions they are not"?

[AnonymousPepper]

I have this exact character as a player in my Friday night 3.PF game (Avenal, LG Paladin of Asmodeus!). Is it actually RAW-legal? No, but it's one of those things that makes for a really entertaining character and thus you either have to be running a really strict or a really serious game to not allow.

I made him eat Heretic of the Faith for it, but other than that I allowed it. If the DM's hesitant to allow a LG paladin of an evil deity, offer that as a compromise.

[SowZ]

Some precedent in 3.5 maybe, but it's a Pathfinder thread though.



Yeah, but the whole point of the 'religious' classes is that they get their powers from those that they worship.
The flip-side of that being a deity isn't going to just give _anyone_ power, he's only going to want to give it to those who _actually_ worship him and believe in his goals.
So you can check the "evil death-murder god of death-killing" box all you want for your LG character, just don't expect to get any 'divine granted' abilities from doing such.

No, see, Paladins don't have to get their power from a god, they can just get it from the universe.