Classless System 2.0

[tricktroller]

Hey again folks of the playground!

As per usual as of late I have been on a hiatus but now I am back!

I have seen numerous types of classless systems, most of which i didn't much care for.

So here is my proposition!

You first pick your Hit Die which determines the amount of points you receive to pick out your first level abilities.

Each player starts out with the same abilities for free,
1 High save
No armor proficiency
No shield proficiency
simple weapon proficiency
1/2 BAB
2+Int skill

So you start with crap everything, and you spend points to increase your abilities. Now, some abilities will be getting lumped into sub-classes that don't allow you to take multiples, i.e., snake attack, skirmish, and sudden strike.

So The points totals are as follows.
D12 110 Points
D10 120 Points
D8 130 Points
D6 140 Points
D4 150 Points

5 points
Wild Empathy
Trapfinding
Track
Bardic Knowledge
Detect Evil
Challenge

10 Points
Rage
Sneak Attack
Bonus Fighter Feat
Smite
Light Armor Proficiency
Light Shield Proficiency
4+Int skills
Skirmish
Sudden Strike

15 Points
2 High Saves
Monk Unarmed Damage
Martial Weapon Proficiency -all
Fast Movement
Steal Spell
Eldritch Blast
Warmage Edge

20 Points
4th level casting (Ranger, paladin, etc)
Monk Ac Bonus
Favored Enemy
Bardic Music
Medium Armor Proficiency
Heavy Shield Proficiency
6+Int skills

25 Points
3 High Saves
Medium BAB
Armored Mage (Light)
Martial Maneuvers

30 Points
6th level Spellcasting (Bard etc)
Heavy Armor Proficiency
Tower Shield Proficiency
8+Int skills
Invocations

35 Points
9th Level spontaneous casting (Favored soul, sorcerer)
Turn Undead
Animal Companion
Wildshape
Full BAB

40 Points
?

45 Points
9th level prepared spellcasting (Cleric, Wizard, etc)

Now the point son these can be changed around to make them more balanced these were just my initial thoughts on what they might should cost. Now I haven't put in any indication of how some of this works so I will explain.

You do not have to purchase each step in a series to get the tree so to speak.

Heavy armor proficiency gets you everything under it for 30 points effectively making them worth 10 points each, medium gives you medium and light for 20 points and light gives you light for 10 points.

The same goes for skill points and saves.

So what do you fine folks think?

[LibraryOgre]

First thought: Can you make every class, or at least every core class, this way?

[tricktroller]

I believe so, most of what I have seen is that the caster's with d4's would end up with points left over for more actual class features.

Fighter D10 120
10 Bonus feat
15 Martial Weapon Prof
30 Heavy Armor
30 Tower Shield
35 Full BAB
120 points total

Barbarian 110 Points
10 Rage
10 4+Int Skills
15 Martial Weapon Prof
20 Medium Armor
20 Heavy Shield
35 Full Bab
110 points

D8 Ranger 130
5 Wild Empathy
5 Track
10 Light Armor Prof
15 2 High Saves
15 Martial Weapon Prof
20 Favored Enemy
20 Heavy Shield Prof
20 6+Int Skills
35 Full BAB
145 points

D6 Rogue 130
5 Trapfinding
10 Sneak Attack
10 Light Armor Prof
25 Medium BAB
30 8+Int Skills
80 points

D4 Wizard 150
15 Familiar*
30 Bonus Craft/metamagic Feat*
45 9th Level prepared Caster
90 Points

* Forgot to add to original list)

So you can see in some instances the points line up well and in others they leave some gaps, but that is kind of what I want to go for so there will be characters who have more than just spells, a familiar, and scribe scroll.

[JeenLeen]

Would players gain in power, or start off with the full-degree of rage, spellcasting, etc.? EDIT: I misread this as both classless and level-less, not just classless.
How are class skills determined, or is everything a class skill/x+Int skills class skills? (I would recommend borrowing Pathfinder's use of skill checks, maybe letting the 'x' of "x+Int" be the number of class skills you get the +3 bonus to.)
---

One downside I see is that it can let me create a wizard that is better than a wizard. I lean towards powergaming, and I also like a lot of skills and to be able to find traps, so I would probably make something like:
d12 - 110 points

45 points - casting as wizard
25 points - armored mage (light)
10 points - light armor proficiency
20 points - 6+Int skill points
5 points - Trapfinding
5 points - Bardic Knowledge

I imagine this could allow a lot of cool combinations, and balanced combinations, but it also lets Tier 1-types get a lot stronger than in 3.5, which makes me fearful about what powergamers could do with this, and how much that might overshadow some less powerful combinations.

[Seerow]

So according to this, if I have a d4HD and 9th level spontaneous casting, I have more points leftover (115 points) to spend than if I have a d12hd and nothing else (110 points).

Turn Undead and Animal Companion are ranked at the same power level as 9th level spontaneous casting.

Heavy Shield proficiency is worth 20 points?! Getting Heavy Armor and Tower Shield proficiency costs 60 points, 33% more than Wizard level casting!

Full BAB is equivalent to Sorcerer level casting?



Yeah, no. This is insane, unless the goal is to make everyone a full caster with a handful of cherry picked bonuses. Spellcasting is way undervalued, and everything else costs way too much. A basic fighter requires 75 points just for proficiencies, 35 points for BAB, and 110 points for his feats. That's 220 points, 95 more than he has with a d10 hit die. And that's for a Fighter, one of the worst classes in the game.

By comparison, I make a Wizard. I grab a d4 hd, 5 bonus feats (50pts), full casting (45pts), and has 55 points left over. He still needs a familiar, but that's not priced, judging by the other stuff that's probably around 15 points, leaving him with 40 points after grabbing everything he already has in the game, so proceeds to use that extra 40 points to pick up Wild Shape or Turn Undead and Bardic Knowledge, because why not?

So we've made Wizards stronger, and fighters weaker. Just awesome.



Edit: Your followup post implied that the 10points for Fighter Feats gets you the entire 11 feat progression. That makes the issue with the Fighter suck less, though proficiencies and basic stats are still dramatically overpriced. But if that is the case why does 11 Fighter feats only cost 10 when you price 5 caster feats as 30? Still a lot of problems here. And with a starting goal of "I want casters to have more class features" I'm not particularly enthused to start.

[tricktroller]

Awesome response so far folks and let me clear up a few issues!

You may not take any ability more than once.

This is only for first level. So if you take wizard casting at 45 points, you do have a lot of stuff you can take! However, every level after this will have a much smaller points pool determined by your hit die.
D12 -50
D10 - 55
D8 - 60
D6 - 65
D4 - 70
Is my initial thought.

A couple things of note, if you select base attack bonus, saves, or spellcasting you have to pay every level to keep increasing them.

A fighter pays for heavy armor and gets all armor below it, same with shields. So yes it costs 60 points to get heavy armor and tower shield but they get 6 feats in total which is the same as spending 60 points on fighter bonus feats, which you can't do.

Martial weapon proficiency gets you all martial weapons.

The fighter bonus feat does not buy you a whole tree, only the armor and shield proficiency abilities do.

Wildshape at first level would only be for small or medium animals to start or o might move it to the 5th level grouping of abilities.

Some later abilities will have prerequisites that you must meet. Wild empathy for Wildshape etc.

This is not polished at all so don't think if this as a finished product. It's a prototype that I need to tweak and balance.

[Grod_The_Giant]

A fighter pays for heavy armor and gets all armor below it, same with shields. So yes it costs 60 points to get heavy armor and tower shield but they get 6 feats in total which is the same as spending 60 points on fighter bonus feats, which you can't do.
That's absurd. That's flatly, patently absurd. Forget about spellcasting; how on earth is wearing heavy armor (a trade-off verses light armor, rather than a flat upgrade) in any way comparable to, oh, Sneak Attack? Much as WotC did, you're vastly overestimating the value of martial options, and underestimating spellcasting. A fighter chassis should be worth, like, maybe half your points, while 9th level casting should leave you with virtually nothing to spare.

[tricktroller]

Ok so what value would you give said options? Keeping in mind that they should scale and allow casters to still be able to do more than just cast spells. 90 points for casting? 10 for light 15 for medium and 20 for heavy?

[tricktroller]

No suggestions? Come on folks, don't just complain about the system help me make it work!

[johnbragg]

Ok so what value would you give said options? Keeping in mind that they should scale and allow casters to still be able to do more than just cast spells. 90 points for casting? 10 for light 15 for medium and 20 for heavy?

Well, the problem is that 15 years of road-testing the 3E chassis tells us that spellcasting is the most valuable ability in the game, by a lot.

9th level prepared casting, by itself, is worth more than the full Fighter class package. It wasn't supposed to be that way, but it is.

By your math, the Fighter costs 130 points.
30 points--d10 hit die
40 points--all armor and shields (my PHB doesn't have a Light or Heavy Shield Proficiency)
15 points--all martial weapons
35 points--Full Base Attack Bonus
10 points--Bonus Feats

So 9th level casting should be at least 150 points.

[tricktroller]

Well I've gone and done it again... Rewrote the whole system with higher points values for each "class" and higher points cost for abilities.

D4 starts with 200 but wizard casting costs 100 points, Probably going to increase it to 120 or 130, but I still want you to be able to have a D4 wizard with full BAB.

Each level you get half of the points you did at first level, but the cost to increase abilities is halved. If you want to add an ability later on then you can take a different hit die but you only ever get the point bonus at 1st level. So if you start out without casting and decide to add casting later you would have to take a d4 hit die and no other class features. after that you could swap back to a different hit die and continue your wizard casting and gain class features.

This is the main reason I have made it 100 points for right now. The only way to get it after level 1 is to take a d4 hit die.

Now everyone is saying this system benefits wizards too much, but it gives everyone overall a relative power boost.

A wizard with sneak attack, or better saves, isn't going to be hugely life altering. But a rogue with martial maneuvers and sneak attack is going to be pretty useful.

Or a fighter with turn undead, 6th level spells, and monk unarmed damage would be kind of fun.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Well I've gone and done it again... Rewrote the whole system with higher points values for each "class" and higher points cost for abilities.

Can we see the updated version?

[Seerow]

A lot is also going to depend on how many points you get each level after the first, and what abilities you have to continue paying for and which ones you get for free after having paid once.

[tricktroller]

Still trying to decide if I like it.

D4 - 200
D6 - 190
D8 - 180
D10 - 170
D12 - 160
1st Level
10 Points
Wild Empathy
Trapfinding
Track
Bardic Knowledge
Detect Evil
Challenge
Light Armor
Light Shield
1 Martial Weapon

20 Points
4+Int Skills
Bonus Fighter Feat
Fast Movement
Summon Familiar
Flurry of Blows
Medium Armor
Heavy Shield

30 Points
+1 Bab
Second High Save
All Martial Weapons
Heavy Armor
Tower Shield

40 Points
4th Level Spells
6+Int Skills
Turn Undead
Animal Companion
Armored Mage
Bonus Metamagic Feat
AC Bonus - Wisdom

50 Points
3rd High Save
Eldritch Blast
Rage
Sneak Attack
Skirmish
Sudden Strike
Smite
Favored Enemy
Monk Unarmed Damage
Steal Spell 0 or 1
Warmage Edge
Bardic Music

60 Points
6th Level Spells
8+Int Skills
Martial Maneuvers
Invocations

70 Points

80 Points
9th Level Spontaneous

90 Points

100 Points
9th Level Prepared spells

as you can see some things got moved up and some got moved down.

For those concerned with what you get for what you pay;
You will get 1/2 the points you receive at first level, every level after 1st. This can be changed by selecting a different hit die, but you still receive half og the original starting points of the new die.

No ability will be selected once at 1st and scale. You must pay to continue leveling abilities and as you can see you don't select which kind of base attack bonus you have, so much as pay at each level to increase it.

2nd Level
5 Points
Bardic Knowledge
Challenge
Wild Empathy

10 Points
4+int skills
Familiar
Bonus Fighter Feat

15 Points
+1 BAB
2nd high Save

20 Points
4th level Casting
6+Int Skills
Turn Undead
Animal Companion

25 Points
3rd High Save
Bardic Music
Uncanny Dodge
Woodland Stride
Evasion
Divine Grace
Lay on Hands
Detect Magic
Ghost Step
Steal Spell - Effect
Chastise Spirits
Shield Block +1

30 Points
6th Level Casting
Invocations
Maneuvers
8+Int Skills
+1 BAB if BAB = 0

35 Points

40 Points
9th Level Spontaneous

45 Points

50 Points
9th Level prepared.

So obviously I need to add stuff to both lists and possibly come up with more class features to fill in the system and make a lot more variation, but this hsould give you an idea of what I'm planning.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

A lot is also going to depend on how many points you get each level after the first, and what abilities you have to continue paying for and which ones you get for free after having paid once.

Seerow is correct here.

Unfortunately, you've taken a up a really difficult project here, especially since spell-casting is such a mixed bag. Compare a Blaster Wizard to a Tippyverse Wizard, for example: both pay the same cost for the spells at their disposal, but the Blaster Wizard is far weaker than a Wizard who properly selects and uses his spells to prepare and eradicate every threat in the most efficient manner.

In general, be warned: I've seen point-buy class systems for D&D pop up pretty regularly over the...8(?) years I've been on this forum, and haven't seen a balanced one yet. :smallfrown:

[tricktroller]

And that is why I want to get people's opinions and help!

[Seerow]

In general, be warned: I've seen point-buy class systems for D&D pop up pretty regularly over the...8(?) years I've been on this forum, and haven't seen a balanced one yet. :smallfrown:

Oh god you just made me realize I'm coming up on a full 10 years next month.

I feel so old.

[johnbragg]

Seerow is correct here.

Unfortunately, you've taken a up a really difficult project here, especially since spell-casting is such a mixed bag. Compare a Blaster Wizard to a Tippyverse Wizard, for example: both pay the same cost for the spells at their disposal, but the Blaster Wizard is far weaker than a Wizard who properly selects and uses his spells to prepare and eradicate every threat in the most efficient manner.

In general, be warned: I've seen point-buy class systems for D&D pop up pretty regularly over the...8(?) years I've been on this forum, and haven't seen a balanced one yet. :smallfrown:

Here's one from 2002, in the first flush of the OGL revolution. The-Book-of-Izz-Half-Baked-Homebrew-from-2002 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?405052-The-Book-of-Izz-Half-Baked-Homebrew-from-2002)

Yours is better, in that you've put some thought into the relative weighting of various class features that I just handwaved as "yeah, that's a feat now."

Maybe we should put some thought into exactly what you're trying to do with this system, and if there's something already out there (cough, gestalt?, cough) that fits what you're doing.

[tricktroller]

I do not want to do gestalt. I am hoping to build a system that would allow for a near finite combination of features so that instead of having to multiclass and take prestige classes and all kinds of acrobatics to get to an effective rogue wizard that you could just select the features and run with it.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

And that is why I want to get people's opinions and help!

Alright!

This one's a little confusing. My initial points are only at first level, and then I get half that number, correct? I assume that's just to allow purchase of proficiencies, but it gets a bit weird. I can buy Turn Undead, but only ever use it as a level 1 character? Every Cleric probably does that, for Persist Spell shenanigans.

Does Monk unarmed damage scale automatically? It says no, but I don't see it on the leveling options. Also, are Rage, Unarmed Damage, Smite, and Bardic Music really worth more than 4th level spells? I doubt it. There are a number of weird issues with ability scaling: sometimes buying a level increase gets you nothing, but still costs the large point value.

Interestingly, note that a Fighter can easily get full BaB, a 2nd high save, almost (but not quite...gotta eat a bit into this budget for that second high save) 1 bonus Fighter Feat per level, and 9th level Spontaneous Casting at caster level 19 (every level but first). All on a d10 hit die.

A Wizard, by contrast, can afford to get 9th level Spontaneous Divine Casting, 9th level Prepared Arcane Casting, and 4+Intelligence skills. No bonus feats...but he probably won't need 'em. :smalleek:

Pretty much everyone's a caster now. It's by far the best option and, as long all you have to sacrifice is minor benefits or a bit of damage, it always will be. I'd never put points into any of the 25-tier level benefits when, for 5 points more, I could be working on 6th level casting.

[tricktroller]

You can't select multiple types of casting on the same level. You could get prepared at first and spontaneous at second but not both in a single level.

Not everyone is going to want to select spells or casting on every character. That is a silly notion, considering that every player ever could just be a cleric or wizard and fulfill every other class role. Just because you can, doesn't mean you will.

However, what point levels would you suggest? How would you overcome the issue of people selecting casting at other levels without making it impossible to not have it at 1st level?

[johnbragg]

I do not want to do gestalt. I am hoping to build a system that would allow for a near finite combination of features so that instead of having to multiclass and take prestige classes and all kinds of acrobatics to get to an effective rogue wizard that you could just select the features and run with it.

You're doing a lot of work compared to just going Rogue//Sorceror and figuring out how the rest of the party can keep up. Or play a Beguiler, or Factotum. Or go Arcane Trickster and ask your DM about loosening the entry restrictions.

Or a wizard with Arcane Disciple and roll with lots of castings of invisibility, spider climb, detect traps, divine insight for skill boosting. One of the sad things about 3rd edition is that the Rogue gets trivialized by a handful of low-level arcane spells.

Or play GURPS Fantasy. GURPS is designed around the kind of flexibility you want, but you're leaving the d20 gaming universe at that point. (Or did GURPS go d20/OGL at some point.)

TLDR: Are you building a system to get a cool outcome/character you want, or are you building a system because you want to build a system and see what cool outcomes you can get?

[tricktroller]

I want to build a system to see what cool stuff I can get. I don't want to do another system, I don't want to play within 3.5, I want to change the game.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

You can't select multiple types of casting on the same level. You could get prepared at first and spontaneous at second but not both in a single level.

That's an important clarification then, and should have been included. Also, it does shoot some concepts in the foot: Mystic Theurge, for example, which is undewhelming at 10/10 casting and really needs the 15/15 (or 16/14, or whatever) casting that it can get. That's impossible if I can't double-dip casting at least occasionally.


Not everyone is going to want to select spells or casting on every character. That is a silly notion, considering that every player ever could just be a cleric or wizard and fulfill every other class role. Just because you can, doesn't mean you will.

That's a poor excuse for a design weakness though. Not everyone plays a Tippyverse Wizard in D&D 3.5, yet the Wizard is still horrendously overpowered compared to the other options. Toughness is a bad feat. Can it really be excused by "some people will just want to take Toughness?" Not really: it's still poorly designed and underpowered, even if some people like it.


However, what point levels would you suggest? How would you overcome the issue of people selecting casting at other levels without making it impossible to not have it at 1st level?

Do be honest? I'm not convinced it can be done and balanced in the 3.5 environment. Spell power scales roughly exponentially, which most other classes scale linearly. Level 1 spells at level 1 aren't that much better than level 1 Barbarian-ing at level 1...but level 9 spells at level 20 is much better than anything the Barbarian, his Fighter buddy, and their Rogue friend can do combined.

I don't think a point system can accurate balance Tier 1 material to Tier 5 material, simply because the D&D tiers are so drastically far apart in terms of power and options. It's a system-level issue, not a numbers issue. Animal Companion and a few spells can entirely replace the Fighter, for example. So can Shapechange. Gate's potential can't be measured in Fighter bonus feats. That's the core of the issue: this system assumes you can measure 9th level casting capabilities in Fighter Bonus Feats or Base Attack Bonus boosts. I don't think you can.


I want to build a system to see what cool stuff I can get. I don't want to do another system, I don't want to play within 3.5, I want to change the game.

...You want to build a system, but don't want to do another system. You don't want to play within 3.5 -- you want to change the game, but not make another system?

I'm really not sure what you're saying here.

[tricktroller]

I'm saying I want 3.5 Dungeons and Dragons using the D20 system, but changed to allow more diverse character options, and unique combinations.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3F0Mxn2oIzNZGNNSWJsRzdKYWM/edit Cleric

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3F0Mxn2oIzNcVFIdnRyZ1UxMWM/edit Wizard

These are spell lists I created when I was working on making my tier 3 game awhile back. Do you think these spell lists would drop the power level of wizards and cleric? Would these spell lists make the point costs that I have listed make more sense?

[Seerow]

Maybe if you charged for each spell slot and caster level separately you could make it work?

Then you do something like:

Prepared Caster: Gain access to one broad spell list, prepare spells from that list. 60 points.
Spontaneous Caster: Gain limited access to a spell list, spontaneously cast from that list. 40 points
Caster Level +1: Costs 20 points, caps at level.
1st level spell slot: Costs 15 points, requires CL1. If you already have 4 slots, additional slots beyond the fourth cost only 5 points.
2nd level spell slot: Costs 15 points, requires CL3 and 4 1st level spell slots.


And so on.
So a 20th level Wizard has 36 spell slots, Caster level 20, and prepared caster, which adds up to costing 1000 points total.

A 20th level Sorcerer has 54 spell slots, Caster level 20, and spontaneous caster, which adds up to 1070.


Okay obviously those costs are still a bit off, since Sorcerer should be cheaper than the Wizard by more than 20 points. Maybe make prepared caster levels cost more by a few points (dropping Sorcerer caster level to 15 drops Sorcerer cost from 1070 to 970). Maybe also add a cost for buying into a new spell level, with that cost getting cheaper the higher you are above minimum level? So the Sorcerer gets bonus points for waiting until 4th for 2nd level spells, and Ranger/Paladin spells are dirt cheap since you're waiting for 4th to get even 1st.



But anyway, in this case you can still balance the game to the standard Wizard/Sorcerer being characters who are devoting basically everything they have to casting, but open up the option for a character to drop a couple spell slots or caster levels to pick up extra class features while still primarily being a caster, which is what the OP seems to be looking for.

[Seerow]

Dropping some more potential numbers:
Unlock New Spell Level: 40 points -10 points for every level after minimum level this is unlocked. Minimum 5.
Spontaneous Caster Level: 15 points.

So a Spontaneous Caster ends up saving over his career 80 points from unlocking new spell levels a level late, and 20 points for being spontaneous in the first place, 100 points from cheaper spellcaster level increases. So saves 200 points compared to the Prepared Wizard. With that 200 points he tends to invest 90 points into 2 extra spell slots per level, and gains an extra 110 points over 20 levels to play with for extra features.

While by RAW sorcerer casting should cost more than Wizard casting (since wizard gets its casting plus bonus feats and sorcerer gets nothing), this makes more logical sense since prepared casting is stronger.



So lets run with these numbers I've got so far. Wizard has to pay at level 1:
60 points (unlock prepared casting)
20 points (Caster Level 1)
40 points (unlock 1st level spells)
15 points (1 1st level spell slot)

So 95 points for his casting at level 1. Plus another 20-25 points for his familiar + Scribe Scroll. Meaning a 1st level Wizard is roughly a 160 point character.

Sorcerer at level 1 needs:
40 points (unlock spontaneous casting)
15 points (caster level 1)
40 points (unlock 1st level spells)
45 points (3 1st level spell slots)

100 points for his casting at level 1, plus another 10-15 points for his familiar. So the 1st level RAW sorcerer is a 150-155 point character.


Every level after that a Wizard needs to be gaining about 2 spell slots per level (30 points) plus 1 caster level (20 points) and needs to be able to afford access to a new spell level every 2 levels (so 20 points per level on average), plus a magic bonus feat every level (so 5 points per level on average, assuming magic bonus feat is 25 points). Which means you need to gain about 75 points per level to keep pace with expected wizard progression.

With that same 75 points the Sorcerer picks up every level 2 new spell slots (30 points) 2 outdated spell slots (10 points), plus 1 caster level (15 points) and a new delayed spell level every 2 levels (15 points per level on average). Which is costing him a total of 60 points per level. So if you give 75 points per level, the Sorcerer has a free 15 points per level to spend on other features (and can choose to not spend the points on extra low level spell slots to have 25 points per level to play with instead).

[johnbragg]

I'm saying I want 3.5 Dungeons and Dragons using the D20 system, but changed to allow more diverse character options, and unique combinations.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3F0Mxn2oIzNZGNNSWJsRzdKYWM/edit Cleric

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3F0Mxn2oIzNcVFIdnRyZ1UxMWM/edit Wizard

These are spell lists I created when I was working on making my tier 3 game awhile back. Do you think these spell lists would drop the power level of wizards and cleric? Would these spell lists make the point costs that I have listed make more sense?

I admire what you're trying to do, and will stop suggesting 3.5 splatbook and UA options.

Limiting the spell lists limits the power of the spellcasters. You might want to start a separate thread for the spell lists--that's another perennial homebrew discussion topic, Nerfing the Tier One Casters.

[johnbragg]

I'm saying I want 3.5 Dungeons and Dragons using the D20 system, but changed to allow more diverse character options, and unique combinations.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3F0Mxn2oIzNZGNNSWJsRzdKYWM/edit Cleric

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3F0Mxn2oIzNcVFIdnRyZ1UxMWM/edit Wizard

These are spell lists I created when I was working on making my tier 3 game awhile back. Do you think these spell lists would drop the power level of wizards and cleric? Would these spell lists make the point costs that I have listed make more sense?

Wow. Yes, limiting to those lists would definitely reduce the power of Tier 1 casters. 24 Wizard spells per level below 9th, less than a dozen cleric spells per spell level, compared to around 30 per level just on the SRD, yes that would limit casters.

To the point where a lot of players would be surprised "Wait, I can never cast X?"