Higher level spell slots?

[McToomin]

So I've been scouring my brain and the Internet for hours now and I'm coming up blank, so I hope someone can help me.

Basically, I've been working on a build I'm planning to use in an upcoming campaign. Here it is as it stands now:

Monk 1/Wizard 1/Bloodline 3/Swordsage 1/Enlightened Fist 7/Jade Phoenix Mage 10

From what I understand about bloodlines, the build works, I'd just be down XP from the main party. Since the bloodline increases caster level and maximum skill ranks, it should work. Also, it's already been approved by the DM, so no worries there.

Now, the campaign isn't likely to go past 20th level (we are starting at lvl 1 after all), so the problem I'm looking to solve may not actually be one that comes up at all. Nevertheless...

Assuming this build works the way I think it does, it ends up with +17 BAB (assuming fractional B&B, +15 without), an initiator level of 18, and a caster level of 17, however the spells known and spell slots available of a 14th-level wizard.

It's the last point that's bothering me.

It's not even that important to me to have 9th level casting by lvl 20. Like I said, the campaign isn't actually likely to last that long, and the group that I'm with, my planned build will have extraordinary amounts of power, even if I am behind the party in XP.

My problem is that, as much as I can figure, this character could never get 9th-level spells or any kind of epic casting.

According to the epic leveling description, spellcasters no longer gain new spells/spell slots. Instead, you take the feat that allows you to learn new spells.

However, the prerequisite for taking the feat is the ability to cast the highest-level spells your class should be able to cast. For me, that'd be wizard and 9th-level spells. But like I said, with my planned build, I only end up with the spells/slots of a 14th-level wizard, giving me 7th-level spells at lvl 20, putting me 2 down. From what I understand, this means that this character could never gain higher level spells to advance his spellcasting in any way.

I've tried looking at combining feats like Sanctum Spell or Earth Spell along with the Extra Spell/Extra Slot feats, however, the "Extra X" feats only give you an extra spell/slot of one spell lower than the highest you know, meaning even if I boosted a spell 1 level higher than I could normally cast, it would still only grant me an extra spell/slot of the highest level I already know, meaning that I couldn't advance higher than my 14th-level wizard limit.

I also had a brief moment of hope where I thought the Spellcraft skill by itself was going to work for me, until I reread that you actually had to be able to cast your highest level spells in order to take the epic spell feat, not just learn/know them.

The way ToB works, you can take Martial Study (and stance, and so on) to take a higher level maneuver if your initiator level is high enough to support it, especially since non-initiating classes still advance your level at half rate. But as far as I can find, there is no spellcasting equivalent to this.

Like I said, I'm not concerned to actually have 9th-level spells by level 20 with this build. I understand spells are more powerful than maneuvers, and to be honest, I'm really looking forward to playing the character. I'll have plenty of power and it'll still be flavorful.

However, the thought of this character not ever being able to grab 9ths is really bugging me, and I know that if I start playing without finding a way around this, is going to stick in the back of my mind like an annoying mosquito.

So please, does anyone know any kind of way to fix this?

Tl;dr ~ In ToB, if you had the initiator level to use a maneuver, you could grab Martial Study to learn a maneuver of the highest level you'd be able to initiate. Is there any kind of spellcasting equivalent to this, allowing you to learn/cast a spell that your caster level would be able to support, even if you haven't taken the class levels to unlock it yet? (Does not need to be doable by level 20, just wondering if it could be done at all.)

[KillingAScarab]

From what I understand about bloodlines, the build works, I'd just be down XP from the main party. Since the bloodline increases caster level and maximum skill ranks, it should work. Also, it's already been approved by the DM, so no worries there.
...
Assuming this build works the way I think it does, it ends up with +17 BAB (assuming fractional B&B, +15 without), an initiator level of 18, and a caster level of 17, however the spells known and spell slots available of a 14th-level wizard. It seems you have bloodline levels confused with something else if you think you would be "down XP" when you have 3 bloodline levels (though it does matter when you take them). I would suggest you take a look at Welknair's Bloodline Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?208703-3-5e-Bloodline-Guide-What-in-the-Nine-Hells-is-a-Bloodline&p=11487854#post11487854), particularly the "I'm really a level!" table. While I'm not familiar with fractional BAB, your calculation for normal BAB is off. Perhaps because Enlightened Fist is a 3/4 BAB class, not 1/1, and you forgot that you end up with +5 BAB over the first seven levels of it?


Now, the campaign isn't likely to go past 20th level (we are starting at lvl 1 after all), so the problem I'm looking to solve may not actually be one that comes up at all. Nevertheless...
...
Like I said, I'm not concerned to actually have 9th-level spells by level 20 with this build. I understand spells are more powerful than maneuvers, and to be honest, I'm really looking forward to playing the character. I'll have plenty of power and it'll still be flavorful.

However, the thought of this character not ever being able to grab 9ths is really bugging me, and I know that if I start playing without finding a way around this, is going to stick in the back of my mind like an annoying mosquito.So, you're fine with a mostly martial character for this campaign, but you want to solve this problem for a future one?



According to the epic leveling description, spellcasters no longer gain new spells/spell slots. Instead, you take the feat that allows you to learn new spells.You seem to be referring to two different rules for spellcasting here, one of which doesn't apply to this character. Second one first, a 20th level bard or 20th level sorcerer doesn't get their spells known table extended when they hit 21st level and they need to spend feats to gain new spells known. Wizards can just keep adding 0-9th level spells they research/find to their spellbooks as normal.

Now back to the first one. In order to be considered to have access to epic level spellcasting, you need to be epic level. If your character hasn't reached 20th level wizard (or the equivalent through prestige classes which advance it), you haven't mastered the non-epic magic, yet. Your build has seven levels which do not advance spellcasting (at least, I don't have access to Jade Phoenix Mage), so when make up that deficit, you'll have completed your Wizard casting up to the equivalent of Wizard 20. The next one after that, Wizard 21, will let you act like an epic level Wizard. A 21st level wizard doesn't gain any additional spell slots for 0-9th level spells through class levels.

[Douglas]

The rule about spells per day not advancing in epic levels is that it doesn't advance past class level 20. Character level is irrelevant for this purpose. If a level 35 Wizard decides to multiclass to Bard at level 36, he will gain the spellcasting of a level 1 Bard. If a Fighter 10/Wizard 10 takes his 21st level in Wizard, his casting will improve to that of a Wizard 11, including access to 6th level spells and spell slots.

[McToomin]

*Edit* So it looks like Douglas just answered the poorly-worded question I'd been trying to get out. I'll leave the below for posterity just in case it ever helps anyone else. I thought I was going to need to find some kind of trick, but it turns out what was bothering me wasn't an issue in the first place, oh well. Thanks again to Douglas and Scarab for taking the time to respond.

Hmm, I'll have to take a look at bloodlines more carefully. I think my BAB should be correct; with fractional: monk 1, Swordsage 1, and wizard 1 give +2. Enlightened fist 7 gives +5, and jade phoenix mage gives +10.

And the problem is not even for a future campaign, it's more of just an RP issue for me. I don't want the character to never be able to get 9ths, in theory; even though in practice I will probably not end up playing him until that point.

I'll try to sum up the problem as I understand it as best I can, but it's entirely possible I'm just missing something stupidly obvious.

At 20th level with this build, I have a caster level of 17, but the spell slots of a 14th level wizard, allowing me to cast 7th level spells.

Level 21, the character would presumably continue levels in his 10-level prestige class (jade phoenix mage) as described in the epic level basics (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/basics.htm). This class normally increases casting every 4/5 levels.

However, past level 20, you don't gain increased spells by leveling, you have to take the feat Improved Spell Capacity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedSpellCapacity). However, the prerequisite for that feat is that you can already cast the highest level spells for your class, which my character cannot.

But maybe I'm just reading too much into this? Would it be possible to do, say:

Lvl 21 ~ wizard
Lvl 22 ~ wizard
Lvl 23 ~ wizard
Lvl 24 ~ jade phoenix mage
Lvl 25 ~ jade phoenix mage
... And so on

Under this progression, would the character get his normal spells known and spell slots for leveling up in wizard, even though technically he's over level 20? Or, since he's over level 20, is he stuck needing to use the Improved Spell Capacity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedSpellCapacity) feat (which he doesn't meet the prereq for) in order to gain new spells?

If it's the former, then great, I don't really have an issue and apologize for starting the thread. But if it's the latter, then I'm still stuck. The Improved Spell Capacity feat requires you to already have 9ths to even be able to take it, and if that's the only way to advance spells once your character hits lvl 20, then the character would be locked out of using that feat and thus ever getting 9th-level spells, even theoretically.

[Khedrac]

For a Prestige Class that advances spellcasting at Epic levels you are better off looking at the epic prestige classes not the epic base classes.


The epic loremaster’s caster level increases by 1 for each new loremaster level she attains. If she has more than one spellcasting class, she must decide which class receives the increase in caster level. The epic loremaster’s number of spells per day (and number of spells known, if applicable) does not automatically increase after 10th level.

When an odd-numbered mystic theurge level above 10th is gained she gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable), as if she had gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class she belonged to previously, up to the maximum spells per day and spells known by that class. Her caster level in that class also increases by +1. When an even-numbered mystic theurge level above 10th is gained she gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable), as if she had gained a level in a divine spellcasting class she belonged to previously, up to the maximum spells per day and spells known by that class. Her caster level in that class also increases by +1.
Here we have a mixed bag, the full casting PCs like loremaster expect the character to already be at max casting and thus do not progress it.
The Theurge prestige class does not expect the character to have maximized casting and thus does progress it, but weirdly only every other level.

Jade Phoenix Mage is probably closest to the Eldritch Knight (but better designed) so let's try there:

The epic eldritch knight’s caster level increases by 1 per level gained above 10th. The epic eldritch knight continues to gain new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) at each new level, up to the maximum spells per day and spells known of the arcane spellcasting class to which the eldritch knight belonged before adding the prestige class.
That's better - and what I would rule as a DM - full casting progression until you reach the spells known and per day cap.

So, why did I also post the other too epic prestige class options? - Well your DM may disagree and it is their call on how the epic prestige classes should work. The other two are examples that WotC could not make their own minds up on this issue. Personally I would house-rule all spellcasting advancing classes to work like the Eldritch Knight (and make Mystic Theurge advance both classes every level) but that's me. There is no RAW answer for any prestige class without a published progression other than "ask your DM".

[atemu1234]

Ah, epic levels. They take the truly poorly written, combine it with misinterpretation, and turn a broken mess into something that is the closest human model of Absolute Chaos.