Incantatrix Question

[thecrimsondawn]

At level 1, you have to give up a school of magic.

Right now I have a domain wizard as a variant class option, and a couple of spells on that are evocation (the school I plan to give up). Also, I have a few evocation spells already from leveling a bit.

Would I loose those spells, just loose the ability to learn new spells, not gain access to the evocation domain spells, or just not be able to cast said spells?

[Aegis013]

The ones already contained in your spellbook would continue to be considered known. You can still scribe spells from the forbidden school into your spellbook and they will be considered known.

However, you can't cast spells from the forbidden school (or use scrolls or wands of spells from that school). Domain Wizard's extra slots can be filled only with spells from the domain. However, you can just prepare copies of lower level spells into the slots that would've contained the now forbidden spells (explicitly spelled out in UA pg. 57 just under the spellcasting subheading).

As far as I can tell, you could still prepare the forbidden spells if you wanted. But it'd be pointless, since you couldn't cast them.

[thecrimsondawn]

The ones already contained in your spellbook would continue to be considered known. You can still scribe spells from the forbidden school into your spellbook and they will be considered known.

However, you can't cast spells from the forbidden school (or use scrolls or wands of spells from that school). Domain Wizard's extra slots can be filled only with spells from the domain. However, you can just prepare copies of lower level spells into the slots that would've contained the now forbidden spells (explicitly spelled out in UA pg. 57 just under the spellcasting subheading).

As far as I can tell, you could still prepare the forbidden spells if you wanted. But it'd be pointless, since you couldn't cast them.

Thanks for that.

I saw a feat a long while back that lets you cast a couple spells from your restricted school. Do you happen to know the name of those feats by any chance?

There is one combo with Evocation that I simply must keep, and thankfully its only like 2 spells

[Grooke]

You can always use (greater) Shadow Evocation, which is an illusion that duplicates Evocation spells up to 4th lvl (7th for Greater = Contingency acces). If that combo is Contingency, you need to check with your DM whether or not you can choose to fail your own disbelief save.

There is also (Greater) Shadow Conjuration/Shades (just noting for completeness)

[Aegis013]

I saw a feat a long while back that lets you cast a couple spells from your restricted school. Do you happen to know the name of those feats by any chance?

It could be the Spell Mastery (prerequisite) and Uncanny Forethought feats. Uncanny Forethought lets you leave (Int mod) slots open and as a full round action cast any spell you know that's suitable for the level of slot at a -2 caster level penalty, or any of the spells selected with Spell Mastery at no penalty.

It's not entirely clear, however, if you'd actually be able to cast spells from a forbidden school, since Uncanny Forethought says you can cast any spell you know that way, but School Specialization says you simply cannot cast spells from the forbidden school. Most tables would probably favor the School Specialization's restriction over the feat's open language, but feel free to consult your DM on the matter.

If it wasn't those, then I'm not sure what feat(s) you may have seen.

[Darrin]

I saw a feat a long while back that lets you cast a couple spells from your restricted school. Do you happen to know the name of those feats by any chance?


Spell Reprieve, Item Reprieve, and Arcane Transfiguration from Lost Empires of Faerun.

There's also Diversified Casting from Dragon #325, allows you to cast up to three spells from a banned school.

[thecrimsondawn]

Spell Reprieve, Item Reprieve, and Arcane Transfiguration from Lost Empires of Faerun.

There's also Diversified Casting from Dragon #325, allows you to cast up to three spells from a banned school.

yes! thats them!
Thanks.

The combo I want to do is to control winds on a persistent wind spell effect going on, such as a storm I make, or a hurricane. As early as lv 6, you can make a wind storm strong enough to cause horrifying damage to a city.
While I am playing more of a god wizard as far as play style goes, I am also going for effect as well, so flashy and powerful is good :)

[Pippin]

Necrobumping this a bit.

How come it's allowed to take the Incantatrix PrC if you're a Domain Wizard ? Doesn't the book say:


A domain wizard cannot also be a specialist wizard; in exchange for the versatility given up by specializing in a domain instead of an entire school, the domain wizard casts her chosen spells with increased power.

[...]

No Prohibited Schools: Unlike a specialist wizard, a domain wizard need not select any prohibited schools or domains. All wizard spells are available to her to learn.

Also while I'm at it, could somebody confirm that Domain Wizards gain bonus feats like standard Wizards at Lv5, Lv10, Lv15 and Lv20?

Thanks!

[Aegis013]

Being an Incantatrix (or Incantatar for the male version), doesn't require the Wizard be a specialist. Instead, the Prestige Class (which itself does not make you a specialist Wizard) requires you to give up a school. Thus, since a Wizard/Incantatrix is not necessarily a specialist Wizard, a Domain Wizard/Inctantatrix is still possible.

You still gain the bonus feats as a normal Wizard, you can find the text regarding such at the beginning of the relevant chapter in UA (pg. 48) where it tells you that the variants presented include the additions, subtractions and alterations to the normal class features of the standard version of the class, including spellcasting. Since Domain Wizard does not tell you anything about bonus feats, you gain them as a normal Wizard would.

[thecrimsondawn]

Some players ended up leaving and some new players came, so our game turned gestalt and kinda had a mini restart. Now I am a wiz/incantatrix+archivist/Dweomerkeeper, or at least that is the end game plan.

Our other party member is a half minotaur Goliath with enough strength to give a giant dragon a grapple scare :P

I dont know what the other 2 potential members are going to be yet, but our initial game was hella fun shenanigans

[Reprimand]

Necrobumping this a bit.

How come it's allowed to take the Incantatrix PrC if you're a Domain Wizard ? Doesn't the book say:



Also while I'm at it, could somebody confirm that Domain Wizards gain bonus feats like standard Wizards at Lv5, Lv10, Lv15 and Lv20?

Thanks!

Its more like the focusing on metamagic specialization is so powerful and time consuming that it requires you to give up studying on another school just to have time to study or the ability to consider such magic might interfere with your understanding of another school of magic. Which makes for great roleplaying as to how you made your choice and why.

It's also a testament to the Incantatrix's(?) power giving up an entire spell school and still being one of the most powerful PrCs in existence.

[Pippin]

Lucky for us, there is no spell school nearly as bad as the Enchantment school. There isn't much thinking to do here.

[sideswipe]

Lucky for us, there is no spell school nearly as bad as the Enchantment school. There isn't much thinking to do here.

actually it is an amazing school and one of the most versatile in the way spells are "intended". it gives mind controls, buffs, lots of utility, good range of level's save or lose and even limited blasting (whelm).

thats just taking from core+completes, include compendium and some obscure sources and you will probably find most of what you are looking for in the enchantment school.

there is only one serious drawback and that is the mind effecting and compulsion descriptors on most of the spells. a big draw back if its relevant, like in high OP.

if not in high OP then its a very good school, as not everyone has mind blank 24/7

[AnonymousPepper]

actually it is an amazing school and one of the most versatile in the way spells are "intended". it gives mind controls, buffs, lots of utility, good range of level's save or lose and even limited blasting (whelm).

thats just taking from core+completes, include compendium and some obscure sources and you will probably find most of what you are looking for in the enchantment school.

there is only one serious drawback and that is the mind effecting and compulsion descriptors on most of the spells. a big draw back if its relevant, like in high OP.

if not in high OP then its a very good school, as not everyone has mind blank 24/7

Except for the part where mind-affecting immunity and/or lack of sufficient intelligence to be compelled and/or simply being the wrong type to be affected by spells (i.e. Dominate Person very quickly no longer working after a certain point against most appropriate enemies) is commonplace among high-CR enemies.

It's not just Wizards with Mind Blank. It's a significant portion of the Monster Manual.

[sideswipe]

Except for the part where mind-affecting immunity and/or lack of sufficient intelligence to be compelled and/or simply being the wrong type to be affected by spells (i.e. Dominate Person very quickly no longer working after a certain point against most appropriate enemies) is commonplace among high-CR enemies.

It's not just Wizards with Mind Blank. It's a significant portion of the Monster Manual.

whereas a agree with you there is about 5% of enemies prewritten that are immune to you and its a problem. thats like saying that since about 5% of enemies have high spell resistance and some are flat out immune to those spells then you should dump them all in favour of what little remains.

if you write off entire schools just because a larger portion than "only one creature" have great resistances against it then your going to run out of options really soon and be just the same old character time and time again.

enchantment school leaves a lot to be desired, but it is in no way a bad school, or even the worst school. its just the easiest to become immune to.
in my opinion the necromancy school (arcane) is the poorest school, its just a lot less common to be immune to.

[thecrimsondawn]

I gave up Illusion.
Illusion is a good school, but it only nets me invisibility, buffs like mirror image, and a lot of deception type spells. Its just not my playstyle.

[ZamielVanWeber]

whereas a agree with you there is about 5% of enemies prewritten that are immune to you and its a problem. thats like saying that since about 5% of enemies have high spell resistance and some are flat out immune to those spells then you should dump them all in favour of what little remains.

5/15 types are immune mind-affecting. This does not include the fact there is an 8th level spell/7th level power that shuts down all mind-affecting. Enchantment is bad because the entire school is mind-affecting and, by late game, every dangerous enemy is immune to it and you will run into plenty of enemies mid game that are immune to it. Your analogy isn't a good one: there are ways of bypassing SR (Assay Spell Resistance, use spells that don't grant SR) but bypassing the mind-affecting tag/immunity to mind-affecting is much more difficult. I should also point out that, as a school, Enchantment is one of the heaviest in SR:Yes spells and any offensive one requires a save, further weakening it.

I love Enchantment, but it is simply too easy to defeat/be immune to, to be a strong as Conjuration or Transmutation, or even Abjuration or Necromancy.

[thecrimsondawn]

5/15 types are immune mind-affecting. This does not include the fact there is an 8th level spell/7th level power that shuts down all mind-affecting. Enchantment is bad because the entire school is mind-affecting and, by late game, every dangerous enemy is immune to it and you will run into plenty of enemies mid game that are immune to it. Your analogy isn't a good one: there are ways of bypassing SR (Assay Spell Resistance, use spells that don't grant SR) but bypassing the mind-affecting tag/immunity to mind-affecting is much more difficult. I should also point out that, as a school, Enchantment is one of the heaviest in SR:Yes spells and any offensive one requires a save, further weakening it.

I love Enchantment, but it is simply too easy to defeat/be immune to, to be a strong as Conjuration or Transmutation, or even Abjuration or Necromancy.


There is an exception to this rule. Fist off, not everything will be immune to this school, and it is able to shut down an entire fight single handedly.
Second, not everything you will "encounter" will be high level either. If you have to talk to the king of a city, a lord, A strong leader, or any notable person, you can easily gain information, favors, or even power from such situations.

[RedMage125]

Personally, I find Enchantment and Illusion to overlap a lot. I could see giving up one or the other.

I was under the impression, however, that the Incantatrix remained able to cast any spells of the new prohibited school IF she knew them ahead of time.

Example: My only Illusion spells known before I took Incantatrix were Color Spray and Invisibility. I take Illusion for my new prohibited school. Color Spray and Invisibility are now the ONLY Illusion spells I can cast.

That's how I read it anyway.

[ZamielVanWeber]

There is an exception to this rule. Fist off, not everything will be immune to this school, and it is able to shut down an entire fight single handedly.
Second, not everything you will "encounter" will be high level either. If you have to talk to the king of a city, a lord, A strong leader, or any notable person, you can easily gain information, favors, or even power from such situations.

So can transmutation and conjuration, both with fewer restrictions. And that second part works as long as no one is watching. Charm doesn't make them idiots, just helpful, and is detectable by anyone with 12 Wis and 4 ranks of Sense Motive at level one and dominate is detectable by people with low Wis and no Sense Motive ranks; anyone who invested in them both can easily see it. You are better off using diplomacy.

Enchantment looks great, but it has some painful weaknesses that conspire to make it one of the worst schools.

[Aegis013]

Example: My only Illusion spells known before I took Incantatrix were Color Spray and Invisibility. I take Illusion for my new prohibited school. Color Spray and Invisibility are now the ONLY Illusion spells I can cast.

That's how I read it anyway.

That's not quite correct. Under "Focused Studies" of Incantatrix PrC (the newer one in Player's Guide to Faerun), it says you must choose a school to prohibit other than Abjuration or Divination and says this is explicitly in addition to other other prohibited schools due to school specialization. Since it references the school specialization prohibition rules, those are the ones used for this too.

So we go to the PHB on pg. 57 to see what prohibiting a school does. It says "Spells of the prohibited school or schools are not available to the wizard, and she can't even cast such spells from scrolls or fire them from wands."

What "not available" means is potentially up for debate (since, does that mean they can't be scribed into the spellbook?), but if a school becomes prohibited after you learned spells from that school, you don't technically stop knowing them, but you do, explicitly, stop being able to cast them (even from scrolls or wands). So in your case, you still know Color Spray and invisibility, and might even be able to prepare them if for some reason that would help you, but you can't actually cast those two spells, without feats or special abilities that are more specific and specify otherwise (example feats already provided earlier in thread).

[atemu1234]

Even with a normal wizard, the worst schools are, in order: Evocation, Enchantment and Necromancy. Maybe with the first two switched around. When 33%+ of all things in the game are immune to 90% of a school, you have a problem. When a spell of another school can imitate 6/9 of your spell levels, you have an equal or slightly smaller problem.

[thecrimsondawn]

Even with a normal wizard, the worst schools are, in order: Evocation, Enchantment and Necromancy. Maybe with the first two switched around. When 33%+ of all things in the game are immune to 90% of a school, you have a problem. When a spell of another school can imitate 6/9 of your spell levels, you have an equal or slightly smaller problem.

Right right, but also remember that many of the protections that are around can be surpressed with a well placed dispel magic, making necromancy's debuffs and death effects a bit more useful. I use this combo all the time on video games that try to mimic 3.5. D&D is one of the few systems where death effects and debuffs WORK on bosses :P

Immune to mind affecting is indeed an issue however as there are just so many ways to get it as an EX or SU. Even with this being the case, enchantment, mixed with skill checks and good role playing can win you the world.

[atemu1234]

Even with this being the case, enchantment, mixed with skill checks and good role playing can win you ~66% of the the world.

Plus/minus those optimized wizards that laugh at your efforts and turn you into a mass of morphed tissue for all eternity.

Guys. I've realized something. Asmodeus isn't an all-powerful wizard, just a TO Human Wizard 20. He fooled us all.

[thecrimsondawn]

Plus/minus those optimized wizards that laugh at your efforts and turn you into a mass of morphed tissue for all eternity.

Guys. I've realized something. Asmodeus isn't an all-powerful wizard, just a TO Human Wizard 20. He fooled us all.

Dont be silly, you dont use will save spells on wizards!
Nearly every wizard in the prime material is after one very select thing or another, weather it be knowledge, spell scrolls, forbidden magic, magic items, or gold. Everyone has there vice.

You just take the leadership feat, Get a base of operations, start a guild or mini empire, and focus heavily on magic and magic defense. Offer them a place to study and learn whatever magic they want in a controlled environment, or help them find what they seek, or give them a way to make some money.

and if you have an issue with one that simply wont learn his lesson, just use swift action spells and always ready a counterspell action. Yet to meet a non gestalt wizard that could take more then two hits from a powerful stat debuff spell

....we dont talk about those gestalt wizards <_<

[RedMage125]

That's not quite correct. Under "Focused Studies" of Incantatrix PrC (the newer one in Player's Guide to Faerun), it says you must choose a school to prohibit other than Abjuration or Divination and says this is explicitly in addition to other other prohibited schools due to school specialization. Since it references the school specialization prohibition rules, those are the ones used for this too.

So we go to the PHB on pg. 57 to see what prohibiting a school does. It says "Spells of the prohibited school or schools are not available to the wizard, and she can't even cast such spells from scrolls or fire them from wands."

What "not available" means is potentially up for debate (since, does that mean they can't be scribed into the spellbook?), but if a school becomes prohibited after you learned spells from that school, you don't technically stop knowing them, but you do, explicitly, stop being able to cast them (even from scrolls or wands). So in your case, you still know Color Spray and invisibility, and might even be able to prepare them if for some reason that would help you, but you can't actually cast those two spells, without feats or special abilities that are more specific and specify otherwise (example feats already provided earlier in thread).

Hmm...I was AFB earlier. I thought I remembered there being a caveat that said you retained the ability to cast any spells from said school if you knew them prior to taking the PrC. Now that I am looking at the book, I can see that such a caveat does not exist. Going through some older books, I can see that said caveat was in the (insanely broken) 3.0 version in Magic of Faerun.

[Pippin]

Even with a normal wizard, the worst schools are, in order: Evocation, Enchantment and Necromancy.
Really I don't understand why Necromancy is often listed among the worst schools. Have you tried the Incantatrix PrC ? If you really want to optimize your character you can't do that without Necromancy.

In my opinion, even if it were the third worst spell school somehow (which I'm really doubtful), the gap between Necromancy and the other schools would be so huge that there would be no point in mentioning this at all. Besides, Necromancy has spells that are so very useful during combat, like shivering touch, waves of exhaustion, avasculate or even wail of the banshee.

[Grooke]

Really I don't understand why Necromancy is often listed among the worst schools. Have you tried the Incantatrix PrC ? If you really want to optimize your character you can't do that without Necromancy.


Same metamagic on a Orb of X spell instead of Enervate and the target still dies.

[dextercorvia]

If you are running a high-op Incantatrix, you don't start as a specialist wizard. That is what Elven Generalist Domain Wizards are for. That way you never have to give up Necromancy, and you can persist Necrotic Empowerment for that tasty +8 Enhancement to Int (and some other nice things).

If you are running a lim OP --> TO^- Incantatrix** then you don't care because you can just persist any of those spells by using Miracle* or Su Wishes.

*Yet another reason you probably don't want to give up Evocation.

**Which is why at that level of optimization you probably aren't running an Incantatrix. They have to make the decision to give up Mind Rape or Miracle, and that is not a decision you make when you want all of the T1 power and versatility. So, you are a Necropolitan Spelldancer instead. That way you can persist everything with no downsides that WBL can't solve. (I'm looking at you, lame prereq feats.)

[RedMage125]

Any DM who actually ALLOWS someone to be both an Elven General Specialist and a Domain Wizard is either running a "go ahead and do what you want, because I am bringing lethal force against your characters" kind of high-OP game, or he's a pushover.

Both of those ACFs are taken INSTEAD of specializing. So once you have taken one, you no longer have the specialization option to give up to take the other.

[dextercorvia]

Both of those ACFs are taken INSTEAD of specializing. So once you have taken one, you no longer have the specialization option to give up to take the other.

All, I'm going to say, since this has been fought out so many times before, is you likely have the correct intention of the thing, but that is not the way they are worded. And, in a sufficiently high op game, RAW trumps any perception of RAI, except in cases of extreme silliness.

It also doesn't matter at all to my above example. Even if you have to choose between generalist and domain wizard, that will be a better choice in a sufficiently high-op game, since losing any school is painful. The fact that some schools are less painful to lose than others doesn't mean that they are worthless.