The Ultimate Defense

[Grand Warchief]

Now I know that having the best defense isn't the best way to build a character and all the defenses in the world won't help keep your teammates alive, but I like building super tanky characters. At the moment, what's the best defense build out there? I'm looking for:

High AC
High health
High saves
Possibly resistance to multiple elements
Any other tanky things.
Decent damage so as not too be considered ignorable

[Ralanr]

Totem barbarian resists everything but pyschic damage. Reckless attack screams "COME AT ME" since if gives all enemies advantage on attacks against you until your next turn.

[SharkForce]

paladin.

- high health from having a d10 hit die
- high AC from having access to heavy armour and shields and fighting style (though you may prefer dueling style for a bit more damage)
- high saves from getting cha mod to all of them
- resistances coming from spells (in particular, see the new elemental evil free PDF that was released)

- auras provide a motivation for mobs to actually attack them.
- limited CC (mostly single target and short duration) provides some motivation for mobs to attack them.
- damage is fairly close to fighter damage, with the option for large spikes of damage that (once again) provide some motivation for mobs to attack them.
- they're also healers. nothing is more annoying than a healer that brings the target you were about to finish off back to high enough health that you're nowhere close to it.

barbarian isn't bad either. but i'd consider barbarians to be a bit more personal toughness whereas the paladin emphasizes group toughness a bit more.

[Strill]

If you want something practical, then you have the choice of:


Bear totem Barbarian/Moon Druid Multiclass: Resistance to all damage, and shapeshifting for free health. 19 AC with Half Plate + Shield, or up to 22 AC if your CON/DEX get high enough.
Ancients Paladin: Ridiculously high saving throws, resistance to all magic damage, and plenty of spells that counter status effects. 20 AC with plate/shield.


If you want something impractical, but significantly better, then:

Level 20 Wizard with Robes of the Archmage and Bracers of Defense. Your AC = 15 + DEX + 2, for up to 22 AC, and you can cast Shield at-will, for another +5 AC, for a total of 27 AC. Take two feats for Medium armor/shields, and you can bump that up to 29 AC with a shield, or up to 32 AC with a magic shield.


Decent damage so as not too be considered ignorable
All D&D 5e characters are capable of this. It's not something you have to choose.

[Chronos]

Quoth SharkForce:

- resistances coming from spells (in particular, see the new elemental evil free PDF that was released)
Where did you see any paladin spells in there?

And there's something to be said for the Abjurer. More HP than a fighter, and the first big chunk of them refresh really easily. And you eventually get both resistance and advantage vs. all spells. Plus all of the things Strill mentioned that any wizard can get.

[SharkForce]

huh. could've swore they got absorb elements. fair enough, guess you have to go ancients for best results (resist aura, protection from energy as a spell, stoneskin as a spell).

on the plus side, oath of the ancients also gives that same resistance to allies in your aura, which brings us right back to "reasons to attack you instead of anyone else" (not that the other oaths are lacking that). still, a bit of a shame, imo... the devotion channel divinity is ludicrously good :P

(and of course, being able to provide your own haste makes it much more likely for you to get one at all).

[Ralanr]

Also the combo of Polearm master and Sentinel should be a good tanking feat duo...which is pretty freaking powerful on its own.

[SharkForce]

two feats is an awfully large investment just to tank one creature that walks up to you and doesn't have a ranged attack.

[Ralanr]

two feats is an awfully large investment just to tank one creature that walks up to you and doesn't have a ranged attack.

The size of the investment depends entirely on class, race, and the stats.

[Strill]

two feats is an awfully large investment just to tank one creature that walks up to you and doesn't have a ranged attack.

It's not awfully large in order to get two extra attacks per round, plus the ability to tank a target indefinitely.

[SharkForce]

The size of the investment depends entirely on class, race, and the stats.

it's also determined by what else you could buy with those feats. polearm master is a good investment because it gives you a bonus action attack and a fair shot at a reaction attack that is easily triggered, both of which provide a significant boost to DPR.

sentinel lets you lock one target in place and gives you another reaction attack which is fairly likely to occur... but since you can only take one reaction attack per round, not that useful when stacked with polearm master which already gives a fairly easy reaction attack.

sentinel is a pretty good feat to have in the right situation, but general-purpose tanking is not particularly that situation. smacking an enemy out of the sky, on the other hand, is a *very* nice use for it.

[Strill]

it's also determined by what else you could buy with those feats. polearm master is a good investment because it gives you a bonus action attack and a fair shot at a reaction attack that is easily triggered, both of which provide a significant boost to DPR.

sentinel lets you lock one target in place and gives you another reaction attack which is fairly likely to occur... but since you can only take one reaction attack per round, not that useful when stacked with polearm master which already gives a fairly easy reaction attack.
Nonsense. When stacked with Polearm Master, your Polearm Master reactions now force enemies to be stuck in place - out of range to attack you. It allows you to effectively negate attacks while also giving a better chance of getting your reaction attack.


sentinel is a pretty good feat to have in the right situation, but general-purpose tanking is not particularly that situation. smacking an enemy out of the sky, on the other hand, is a *very* nice use for it.General-purpose tanking is exactly the situation to use Sentinel. It forces enemies to attack you instead of your allies, while also allowing you to deal more damage.

[SharkForce]

Nonsense. When stacked with Polearm Master, your Polearm Master reactions now force enemies to be stuck in place - out of range to attack you. It allows you to effectively negate attacks while also giving a better chance of getting your reaction attack.

it lets you stop *a* creature. one. because that is how many reactions you get. if you are only fighting one, and that creature doesn't have any ranged options or reach, that's pretty handy. also, you've probably already won the fight anyways and it simply isn't official yet because the punching bag you're fighting hasn't run out of HP.

edit: sentinel doesn't make anything attack you. it makes the first creature that attacks someone else take an opportunity attack. eating an opportunity attack isn't great, but when you've got 150 HP, possibly losing an average of 10-15 is not the end of the world. it is likely to be quite worth it if it means putting down someone who needs a tank to keep them alive.

[ChubbyRain]

Rogue Thief 5 + bear totem barbarian 3 + tempest cleric 12

You have cunning action (disengage) and uncanny dodge from the rogue.

You have bear totem raging from the barbarian. Reckless attack is nice too.

You have cleric spells and effects (plus armor prof) ftm the cleric. Healing and buffs are awesome sauce.

Earth Genasi Barbarian 3/Rogue 5/Cleric 12 might be the best way to go. This way you don't have to rely on cleric for armor prof. and you get more starting HP.

Starting Scores

Str: 16 (+1 race)
Dex: 14
Con: 14 (+2 race)
Int: 8
Wis: 14
Cha: 8

Switch wis and cha if you want Paladin which would work just fine, I just happen to prefer Cleric spells.

Boost strength and wisdom with ASI, you get 4 in total... Str = 18 and Wis = 20 works nicely... Your melee attacks will have advantage from reckless attack after all.

Then you can battlefield control with cleric spells and still go sick on a creature in melee. You don't need the rage bonus as you have sneak attack and divine strike.

[Strill]

You have cleric spells and effects (plus armor prof) ftm the cleric. Healing and buffs are awesome sauce.
Using heavy armor negates most of your good barbarian abilities. No point.

[Giant2005]

Halfling
Fighter 3 (Battlemaster)
Paladin 6 (Devotion)
Ranger 11 (Beastmaster - Giant Badger)
Mounted Combatant Feat.

You use the Giant Badger to do all of your attacking. It gets two multiattacks by default and by using Commander's Strike with your extra attack, it can have a third. Use the Beast Bond spell to give it advantage on all attacks. That combination is one of the highest DPR potentials possible.
The feat allows your companion to survive while providing a pesudo-Evasion which is bolstered by the Paladin save aura (While also bolstering your own saves).
As the character won't be using his own abilities, you can pump defensive abilities (Charisma, Con, possibly Dex if you are in light armor) to your heart's content without concerning yourself with an attack stat.
By not attacking, you can make use of the Sanctuary spell which means you have a second layer of defense that no-one else has access to. In order to attack you they must first beat a Wisdom save against your Paladin DC (Charisma based which should be maximized as much as possible due to the save benefits it offers). Then they must beat your AC which should be 20 or 21 depending on what type of armor you wear (Armor + Shiled + Defensive Fighting Style). If they don't beat your DC, they instead attack one of their friends which further increases your damage output.
The end result is a being with damage among the highest poissible in the game, physical defense superior to all and top tier saving throw capabilities.

[Kane0]

i've always liked the idea of an EK fighter 3 (or just 1)/ abjurer wizard 17 (19). Heavy armor, con saves, temp hp, shield/absorb elements at will, so on and so forth. Foresight is also really good.

Other than that, paladins and bear barbarians are both notoriously hard to kill, as are smart rogues.

[Chronos]

Quoth SharkForce:

edit: sentinel doesn't make anything attack you. it makes the first creature that attacks someone else take an opportunity attack.
Worse than that-- The attack you can make against someone attacking one of your allies isn't an opportunity attack; it's just an attack you use your reaction to make. Which means it won't trigger Sentinel's stand-still ability.


Quoth Giant2005:

If they don't beat your DC, they instead attack one of their friends which further increases your damage output.
Sanctuary doesn't do this. If they fail the save, then they have to attack someone else or lose the attack. If someone else they want to attack is in range, they can do that (at which point you're doing the exact opposite of tanking). If nobody else is in range but their allies, then they can just attack nobody.

[Giant2005]

Sanctuary doesn't do this. If they fail the save, then they have to attack someone else or lose the attack. If someone else they want to attack is in range, they can do that (at which point you're doing the exact opposite of tanking). If nobody else is in range but their allies, then they can just attack nobody.

I originally thought it was either attack something else in rage, or if there isn't anything in range, lose the attack. Although now I agree with you - I believe your interpretation is the correct one. It doesn't really matter anyway, I was never really intending it to be used offensively - I just thought it was a nice bonus.

[Grand Warchief]

Rogue Thief 5 + bear totem barbarian 3 + tempest cleric 12

You have cunning action (disengage) and uncanny dodge from the rogue.

You have bear totem raging from the barbarian. Reckless attack is nice too.

You have cleric spells and effects (plus armor prof) ftm the cleric. Healing and buffs are awesome sauce.

Earth Genasi Barbarian 3/Rogue 5/Cleric 12 might be the best way to go. This way you don't have to rely on cleric for armor prof. and you get more starting HP.

Starting Scores

Str: 16 (+1 race)
Dex: 14
Con: 14 (+2 race)
Int: 8
Wis: 14
Cha: 8

Switch wis and cha if you want Paladin which would work just fine, I just happen to prefer Cleric spells.

Boost strength and wisdom with ASI, you get 4 in total... Str = 18 and Wis = 20 works nicely... Your melee attacks will have advantage from reckless attack after all.

Then you can battlefield control with cleric spells and still go sick on a creature in melee. You don't need the rage bonus as you have sneak attack and divine strike.

Keep in mind you cant cast or concentrate while raging.

[Grand Warchief]

Oh, and please take the sentinel / polearm master discussion elsewhere. It shouldn't be part this thread and is being discussed elsewhere. I understand it's a potential tank build, and I thank you for the suggestion. But I personally don't like it unless they give us a combat reflexes feat. One reaction per turn is not effective enough. I'm not looking to be a tank against one foe who doesn't have the wherewithal to do anything other than attack. I'm looking for builds and ideas that will keep a character alive in all situations without running away like a Pansy like I wizard often has to do.

[Shining Wrath]

Moon Druid deserves a mention. All the HP, some of the forms have decent AC, saves OK.

[Person_Man]

I've found that Rogue actually ends up being the most survivable class in the games I've played or DM'd. They have the best ability score dependencies (Dex/Con), they're smart enough to stay away from the front line of combat, they can retreat or hide whenever they need to, and Evasion and Uncanny Dodge rock.

Having said that, my vote goes to Oath of Ancients Paladin with the Mounted Combat Feat riding a Moon Druid with the Sentinel Feat.

[Strill]

I've found that Rogue actually ends up being the most survivable class in the games I've played or DM'd. They have the best ability score dependencies (Dex/Con), they're smart enough to stay away from the front line of combat, they can retreat or hide whenever they need to, and Evasion and Uncanny Dodge rock.

That's just redirecting damage to another party member. You're not actually accomplishing anything for the party's defense.

[Ralanr]

Oh, and please take the sentinel / polearm master discussion elsewhere. It shouldn't be part this thread and is being discussed elsewhere. I understand it's a potential tank build, and I thank you for the suggestion. But I personally don't like it unless they give us a combat reflexes feat. One reaction per turn is not effective enough. I'm not looking to be a tank against one foe who doesn't have the wherewithal to do anything other than attack. I'm looking for builds and ideas that will keep a character alive in all situations without running away like a Pansy like I wizard often has to do.

Bear totem barbarian with a high con (like 16-20). There are other examples yes, but I'm not sure if druid shape change works in anti magic zones. Technically I'm not sure if totem rages work in there but I have doubts against it (I could be wrong). Though if neither work in there, you still have an ability where it's mundane version is half damage from bludgeoning, slashing, and piercing, magic or otherwise. Nothing bypasses the barbarian damage resistance unless it's a type of damage they can't resist (Like psychic) or if the ability specifically stats that it bypasses any resistance (Like Vorpal swords.)

Edit: The only problem to all situations is that you can't rage forever (Until certain levels) since rage lasts for a minute and can end if you don't attack (Missing still applies as attacking thankfully) or don't take damage. You also have prebuilt con save prof, which is VERY important in most cases. You can always find ways to keep yourself in rage if need be (Like punching yourself) so in combat you can be a ok.

[charcoalninja]

Fiend Paladin X / Warlock 3

Take Heavy Armour Master, Warcaster and eventually Resilient (CON).
Take Fiendish Vigor, Devil's Sight, Go Tome Warlock for additional cantrips such as Thorn Whip, Shocking Grasp and Guidance.

So you have all of the Paladin goodies but you also start every fight with 8 temp HP due to false life at will, have Eldritch blast for fighter like ranged damage dealing, can take darkness to smash the crap out of everyone imposing disadvantage on enemies and advantage to you since you can see just fine and every time you kill someone you gain 3+CHA mod temp hp which is like having a free Cure Wounds spell cast on you every round you kill someone.

Not to mention you can cast 2 more 2nd level spells each on a short rest due to Pact Magic.

Amazing build that's hard as hell to kill and amazingly versitile.

Replace Paladin with Cleric if you want to turtle and battle control. Spirit Guardians + Dodge action and just running around keeping people in the AOE is equal to casting a fireball every other round at worst, or every round if you manage to move the area onto a badguy on your turn.

EDIT: oh! Bonus on Spirit Guardians is that the whole 15' area is difficult terrain which hampers people a considerable bit and provides some nice tankiness for sure.

[Easy_Lee]

An open hand monk with sentinel actually meets pretty much all of the requirements you'd want from a tank.

HP is decent
AC is great.
Plenty of defensive features such as evasion, poison and disease immunity, able to resist charm and frighten, defect missiles, and so on.
Proficient in all saves after 14
Excel at positioning themselves effectively, so they're nearly always able to get to their allies or opponents, or block a choke point
Able to stun targets to lock them down
Able to attack targets who attack other allies, halting them in place if they try to run away (sentinel)
Can flurry to throw targets away from your allies (open hand)
Able to Sanctuary up and make themselves difficult to attack at all
Able to self-heal
Very hard to come up with a situation where they won't be useful.

As far as just standing there and taking hits, totem barbarian is your best bet. But an open hand monk with sentinel actually has quite a lot of the features that one wants in an effective defender.

[charcoalninja]

An open hand monk with sentinel actually meets pretty much all of the requirements you'd want from a tank.

HP is decent
AC is great.
Plenty of defensive features such as evasion, poison and disease immunity, able to resist charm and frighten, defect missiles, and so on.
Proficient in all saves after 14
Excel at positioning themselves effectively, so they're nearly always able to get to their allies or opponents, or block a choke point
Able to stun targets to lock them down
Able to attack targets who attack other allies, halting them in place if they try to run away (sentinel)
Can flurry to throw targets away from your allies (open hand)
Able to Sanctuary up and make themselves difficult to attack at all
Able to self-heal
Very hard to come up with a situation where they won't be useful.

As far as just standing there and taking hits, totem barbarian is your best bet. But an open hand monk with sentinel actually has quite a lot of the features that one wants in an effective defender.

Yeah this is amazing if you want a non caster route, great catch. Love dem monks!

[SharkForce]

i'd say the monk is not particularly better with sentinel than without it. the only thing coming from sentinel is the ability to hold an enemy in one place with an opportunity attack, and the ability to hit the first enemy that attacks someone else near you with a reaction... so you're still only threatening one person.

far more relevant is the fact that a monk can potentially force you to make 4 saves per round to avoid being stunned, and is able to knock people all over the place, actually has a legitimate save-or-die at high levels, and has the mobility to get in and threaten the enemy's weak characters.

if i was going to recommend any feat, it would probably actually be mageslayer; it turns you into a serious threat that gives the enemy the option of dealing with you first, or letting you have your way with their back line and shutting down their casters entirely. in fact, i'd say that most any monk can do that with varying degrees of success.

[Shining Wrath]

i'd say the monk is not particularly better with sentinel than without it. the only thing coming from sentinel is the ability to hold an enemy in one place with an opportunity attack, and the ability to hit the first enemy that attacks someone else near you with a reaction... so you're still only threatening one person.

far more relevant is the fact that a monk can potentially force you to make 4 saves per round to avoid being stunned, and is able to knock people all over the place, actually has a legitimate save-or-die at high levels, and has the mobility to get in and threaten the enemy's weak characters.

if i was going to recommend any feat, it would probably actually be mageslayer; it turns you into a serious threat that gives the enemy the option of dealing with you first, or letting you have your way with their back line and shutting down their casters entirely. in fact, i'd say that most any monk can do that with varying degrees of success.

This is the sort of build I like to call a Disrupter: the front line is where ever you are, because you can't be ignored, and you can last long enough for your friends to take care of business. In 3.5 I used to do this with a Warblade; run into the enemy, rely on improved Uncanny Dodge to avoid flanking, use Mithral Tornado and Adamantine Hurricane to inflict damage. Combine with Tumble so that after they surround you you can still move between them and get to the mage or archer again.

[holygroundj]

Totem Barbarian is a great tank at any level. at level 14, you can either prone enemies or take bear again, and cause adjacent enemies to attack others with disadvantage.

I went full con, and at level 8 had 101 hp and took 1/2 damage from almost anything. also being able to move 40 ft and having adv on initiative means you usually move first and often.

I went goliath for the ability to use a reaction to reduce damage 1/day.

You can still use a shield, and if you pump con, at level 8 you can have a min ac of 16 if you dump dex. I put 14 in my dex, so my AC is 19.


Honestly, the real problem with trying to "tank" is that you are limited to one reaction per round. Since combat usually involves more than one enemy, it's super hard to stick more than one to you. As others have said, acting in a reckless manner can usually draw enemies to you. Going battle master multiclass to goad people into attacking you also works.

[Karsalem]

Sanctuary doesn't do this. If they fail the save, then they have to attack someone else or lose the attack. If someone else they want to attack is in range, they can do that (at which point you're doing the exact opposite of tanking). If nobody else is in range but their allies, then they can just attack nobody.

Actually, Sanctuary does work exactly like that. I will go ahead and include the wording of the spell from the PHB:

You ward a creature within range against attack. Until the spell ends, any creature who targets the warded creature with an attack or a harmful spell must first make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, the creature must choose a new target or lose the attack or spell. This spell doesn’t protect the warded creature from area effects, such as the explosion of a fireball. If the warded creature makes an attack or casts a spell that affects an enemy creature, this spell ends.

The bolded part is very unambiguous about what must happen. If the attacking creature fails the save it must choose a new target that is eligible for the attack it made against the warded target. If there are no other eligible targets available for the attack that was made then the second part of the sentence kicks in and the attack is simply lost.

It’s tempting to read the sentence as giving the attacking creature choice but if that were the case the sentence would read: “…the creature can choose a new target or lose the attack or spell.”

It does have a certain degree of choice. If the attacking creature makes a ranged attack more than likely there will be a number of other eligible enemy targets to choose from. But if the attacking creature makes a melee attack against the target with no other enemies close by and happens to be standing next to three of his buddies those three are going to find out very quickly which one of them he likes the least.

[Grand Warchief]

I appreciate all the feedback from everyone. SO far, it seems like the Paladin OtA is the way to go. For clarification. I'm not looking to be the best tank. I'm looking to have the most defensive build. Call it selfish, but I want to make sure I SURVIVE, not the party.

[charcoalninja]

Actually, Sanctuary does work exactly like that. I will go ahead and include the wording of the spell from the PHB:


The bolded part is very unambiguous about what must happen. If the attacking creature fails the save it must choose a new target that is eligible for the attack it made against the warded target. If there are no other eligible targets available for the attack that was made then the second part of the sentence kicks in and the attack is simply lost.

It’s tempting to read the sentence as giving the attacking creature choice but if that were the case the sentence would read: “…the creature can choose a new target or lose the attack or spell.”

It does have a certain degree of choice. If the attacking creature makes a ranged attack more than likely there will be a number of other eligible enemy targets to choose from. But if the attacking creature makes a melee attack against the target with no other enemies close by and happens to be standing next to three of his buddies those three are going to find out very quickly which one of them he likes the least.

Course the attacker can just choose to lose the attack or spell since that's an option. You must target someone else, or lose the attack or spell. So if they don't target someone else, like say their buddy, than they simply lose the attack or spell.

[ChubbyRain]

Using heavy armor negates most of your good barbarian abilities. No point.

Actually I was thinking of medium armor. If you want cleric before barbarian for whatever reason you still get medium armor.

Barbarian stuff works in medium armor.

Raging is nice and all but the main draw to the class for damage is reckless attack. Only rage when you need the survivability of bear totem (hordes come to mind).

Any other time, don't rely on rage. Either use casting which by later levels will be the most powerful thing you can do... Or rely on reckless attack to get your attacks off.

The barbarian is a good supplemental class to magic users because rage being your last resort.

Medium Armor (15) + 2 Dex + Shield = 19 AC
Unarmored Defense 14 (not the worst you could do)
Uncanny Dodge
Cunning Action
Healing Spells
Utility Spells
Edit: Barbarian gives you advantage on Dex saves


Oh and there are some good non-concentration spells out there. Cast them and then go to town raging if you want. But I prefer to use rage as a backup when you only have 3 levels of barbarian... Basically a crap hits the fan (out of spells perhaps) then I'm not dying via HP damage anytime soon.

I actually would take the life cleric just for the sheer fun of it.

[DireSickFish]

Be a wizard at lvl 7+. Cast resilient sphere on self. Be immune to all damage. Ultimate Defense

[Ralanr]

I appreciate all the feedback from everyone. SO far, it seems like the Paladin OtA is the way to go. For clarification. I'm not looking to be the best tank. I'm looking to have the most defensive build. Call it selfish, but I want to make sure I SURVIVE, not the party.

I still say barbarian. But I might be biased.

[MrStabby]

I appreciate all the feedback from everyone. SO far, it seems like the Paladin OtA is the way to go. For clarification. I'm not looking to be the best tank. I'm looking to have the most defensive build. Call it selfish, but I want to make sure I SURVIVE, not the party.

Then you want a class with invisibility... or teleport, expeditious retreat, fly or similar

[Easy_Lee]

Edit: Scrubbed my own post, was using an incorrect definition.

[Karsalem]

Course the attacker can just choose to lose the attack or spell since that's an option. You must target someone else, or lose the attack or spell. So if they don't target someone else, like say their buddy, than they simply lose the attack or spell.

This:

"...the creature must choose a new target or lose the attack or spell."

...is not an "either/or" statement. It is an "or/else" statement. You must satisfy the requirements of the first part of the statement or else the second part of the statement takes effect. The attacker must choose another target if another target is available it has no choice in the matter. If there are no targets available then the or/else statement kicks in and the attack is lost.

Of course, your mileage may vary. Every table's DM is free to interpret this the way they see fit. I’m just trying to clarify the clear reading on the statement.

In all honesty I don’t really know why WOTC futzed with it. The 3.5 wording of the spell simply reads (paraphrasing) “If the attacker succeeds at the saving throw it attacks normally if it fails the saving throw the attack fails.” None of this business about re-targeting.

[ruy343]

[...] Far more relevant is the fact that a monk can potentially force you to make 4 saves per round to avoid being stunned [...]

Actually, you only get to have those effects kick in when you spend a ki point on flurry of blows, and then only on the flurry attacks: just 2, and just when you spend a ki. Pretty lame, I know.

On an unrelated note, have you considered a full Fighter: Eldritch Knight build? You get all the benefits of heavy armor, and you can learn the "Blade Ward" cantrip, which halves any weapon damage that you take. I know, I know, it's an action to cast, but if you're placed well, you can still use a reaction to stab someone (like if you got the Sentinel feat, which, as a pure fighter, isn't too hefty of a cost). Additionally, at higher levels, you're still allowed to make one attack on the same round as casting a cantrip, meaning that you could cast blade ward and still stab someone in the same round.

Your AC would max out at 21, and it wouldn't be ability score dependent for that high AC, so you won't be as MAD (18 for Full Plate [yes, you need 15 str for this, but I figured you'd be a str-based fighter anyway], +2 for shield, and take defense fighting style for the added +1), making you pretty hard to hit.

Also, a lot of your useful cantrips are abjuration, which don't rely on your Int score to use effectively (again, helping with MAD). My personal favorite in this category is Blade Ward, which lets you take half damage just like the barbarian (although only to weapon attacks). In addition to cantrips, you get the versatility of being a third-caster (with more spells learned from taking the magic initiate feat if you'd like: I'd choose "expeditious retreat" for added mobility if I were you). Remember: when learning spells for EK, you choose specifically from Abjuration or Evocation, but spells learned from other sources (like the feat) can still be cast with those EK spell slots, because the feat specifically says "you know the spell".

Other uses for your plethora of Ability Score Increases might include picking up the elemental... feat... whatever it's called, granting you resistance to specific elements, and boosting your cantrip damage (should you ever use a cantrip for damage).

Is everyone on the forum going to trash this build? Yes. You're not going to be a very heavy hitter every time you cast blade ward on yourself (though you can choose not to use it and you'll get your full, glorious multiple attack progression at your disposal).

But by golly, you will survive, and you will be a fantastic tank.

[SharkForce]

Actually, you only get to have those effects kick in when you spend a ki point on flurry of blows, and then only on the flurry attacks: just 2, and just when you spend a ki. Pretty lame, I know.

no, that's the open hand ability and it doesn't stun you at all. i was talking about stunning strike. you still have to pay ki, but you can indeed force 4 saves per round (if all hit).

[ruy343]

no, that's the open hand ability and it doesn't stun you at all. i was talking about stunning strike. you still have to pay ki, but you can indeed force 4 saves per round (if all hit).

Ah, I now understand what you meant. Apologies

[Chronos]

Sanctuary says you must attack someone else or lose the attack. So you're forced to do one of those two things. Nothing about it takes away your choice. If they had meant that, they would have said "You must attack someone else. If you can't, you lose the attack".

And how does a Mage Slayer monk "completely shut down the enemy casters"? All it does is let you get off one extra attack per round, and monk attacks aren't all that powerful on a per-attack basis.

Also, the monk's Sanctuary ability is kind of useless, because it ends as soon as you do anything useful, and you can't choose when to start it. An actual spellcaster can still do useful things with it up (curing, summoning, buffing), but monks don't have those options. Actual spellcasters can also wait to use it when it'll be most effective, and still attack before that point. About all a monk could use it for would be to go scout out the enemy first thing in the morning, and have a Plan B for getting away if spotted.

[Easy_Lee]

Just checked the wording on sanctuary in the PHB: "the creature must choose a new target or lose the attack or spell."

I was going with the wording previously quoted (from somewhere). As it's worded in the PHB, it does indeed let the creature choose to drop the attack. So my mistake.

[SharkForce]

Sanctuary says you must attack someone else or lose the attack. So you're forced to do one of those two things. Nothing about it takes away your choice. If they had meant that, they would have said "You must attack someone else. If you can't, you lose the attack".

And how does a Mage Slayer monk "completely shut down the enemy casters"? All it does is let you get off one extra attack per round, and monk attacks aren't all that powerful on a per-attack basis.

Also, the monk's Sanctuary ability is kind of useless, because it ends as soon as you do anything useful, and you can't choose when to start it. An actual spellcaster can still do useful things with it up (curing, summoning, buffing), but monks don't have those options. Actual spellcasters can also wait to use it when it'll be most effective, and still attack before that point. About all a monk could use it for would be to go scout out the enemy first thing in the morning, and have a Plan B for getting away if spotted.

i have no strong opinion on sanctuary, it wasn't part of my plan (though it would be amusing to watch a dodging monk blocking a group of enemies from getting through :P ).

as to how the monk is shutting down enemy casters, well, many casters will have unimpressive AC (meaning you can typically hit them fairly reliably) and relatively poor con saving throws (that is, unless they're a PC, they're probably not proficient in the save and are relying on straight attribute bonus). depending on caster, those two things may not be completely abysmal, but they're probably not great in any event.

now combine that with a good chance of getting 5 attacks off on said casters (one of which will be during their turn), each of which can potentially stun (or, at very high levels, instantly kill if you so choose) while also dealing damage. combine that with exceptional levels of resistance to almost anything they may want to try to do to you.

and that is why a monk with mageslayer is a very scary thing for casters and can shut them down completely.

[Chronos]

All Mage Slayer does there is turning four attacks into five.

[SharkForce]

All Mage Slayer does there is turning four attacks into five.

gives advantage to your saves as well, and disadvantage to concentration checks. provides a compelling reason (when combined with the stun) to make them reaaaally not want to be the one guy that takes the opportunity attack. and of course, that lets you stun what is potentially the only one that didn't get stunned on your turn. they either disengage (and don't get to cast a spell) or risk getting interrupted when they do cast a spell.

when you're looking mostly for more chances to land a stun, an extra attack is pretty much all you need.

[Easy_Lee]

If you know you're going to be dealing with a lot of mages, mage slayer is a good choice of feat. If you aren't going to be dealing with many mages, then there are better options. I'd consider it if my party had a weakness to certain saves or casters in general.