Liches!

[Auramis]

Hello everyone! I'm currently writing a campaign for my friends to play in (no one else wanted to be DM :< ), and I want to make their BBEG a Lich! ... the hitch with that is that I also wanted them to be a cleric. In this version of D&D, it seems the MM assumes Liches are only wizards. I can understand why, since the archtypes of the other spellcasters might present some theme issues in becoming a Lich whereas the wizard's neutral magic is versatile enough that there aren't any hitches in becoming a Lich (at least, that's my interpretation of why they state Liches were former wizards).

That said, what's your opinion on scrapping that notion and allowing a Lich to be, for example, a Death Domain cleric in life to ascend into undeath? Is it as simple as swapping out the Lich's spell list for the Death Domain cleric's?

[themaque]

Sure, can''t think of a reason why some God of Death wouldn't have some lich variant worshiper. I say run with it.

[Wartex1]

Here's an idea for fluff:

After ascending to lich-hood, the cleric actually became a minor deity.

[Auramis]

Here's an idea for fluff:

After ascending to lich-hood, the cleric actually became a minor deity.

The Lich already has a challenge rating of 21 as it is. I don't really wanna add on more of a challenge to that. I want my party to actually kill it, eventually.

[Grand Warchief]

The only issue I see with it is that lich's need access to imprisonment for their Phylactery, which is only an arcane spell so far as I can remember AFB.

[Auramis]

The only issue I see with it is that lich's need access to imprisonment for their Phylactery, which is only an arcane spell so far as I can remember AFB.

Ahh, so they do. Hmm... I suppose I could just give them the spell as a divine spell, bestowed upon them by their dark god for their ascension into lichdom. Alternatively, I could give them an item that does the spell.

[Magic Myrmidon]

Actually, there's no such thing as "arcane" or "divine" spells anymore. There's just spells. So it's pretty easy to just say a lich was/is a cleric.

[Gritmonger]

...there is the option of a Mummy Lord - lair actions, legendary actions, CR 15, but more of a cleric-y flavor to it (channel negative energy), but definitely negative energy domain and a spellcaster up to 6th level spells.

[supergoji18]

Hello everyone! I'm currently writing a campaign for my friends to play in (no one else wanted to be DM :< ), and I want to make their BBEG a Lich! ... the hitch with that is that I also wanted them to be a cleric. In this version of D&D, it seems the MM assumes Liches are only wizards. I can understand why, since the archtypes of the other spellcasters might present some theme issues in becoming a Lich whereas the wizard's neutral magic is versatile enough that there aren't any hitches in becoming a Lich (at least, that's my interpretation of why they state Liches were former wizards).

That said, what's your opinion on scrapping that notion and allowing a Lich to be, for example, a Death Domain cleric in life to ascend into undeath? Is it as simple as swapping out the Lich's spell list for the Death Domain cleric's?

There is such a thing as a Bane Lich, which is a priest of Bane who has been turned into a lich by their god so they may further serve him in death. You can just switch out Bane for your nearest equivalent to the God of death or evil and boom, you have what you need.

As far as mechanic changes go, just swap the spellcasting around a bit and swap the Lich's Intelligence and Wisdom scores.

[kaoskonfety]

As far as the players are concerned, what stat the big bad is using for their spell casting might as well be "resonance" or "Rage" - it matters not. You just need to know the spell DC.

Give the lich a list of Cleric spells as "known", switch the caster stat - or not - and bang - cleric lich. Put them in some medium armour (more for religious iconography than for AC) and hand them a mace and holy symbol.
If you want to lift a few class features from say knowledge or Death domain options power to you - they are not likely to seriously affect the CR.

[M Placeholder]

You could always convert a Huecuva to 5th edition if you are playing in FR. That would be cool.

http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/huecuva.shtml

[EvanescentHero]

I intend to include a lich in my campaign (probably a scaled-down one if the CR is 21), but originally he was a warlock. I don't really see a problem swapping things around for story reasons or to make a better encounter, and in fact the books actively suggest doing so. The only thing I wish is that lich was a template, because mine was a PC originally, and it would make it easier. Oh well, still shouldn't be that tough.

[Shining Wrath]

Remember, the PHB says that the listed spells are the most common, not the only. You, as DM, can create any spell you need for your story, so long as it's not completely unfair.

For example, I'm inventing spells that let people who have conjured a creature bind them to guard a certain area forever. Not a nice thing to do, of course, but people can bind a fiend to guard an area and so on.

[Auramis]

Actually, there's no such thing as "arcane" or "divine" spells anymore. There's just spells. So it's pretty easy to just say a lich was/is a cleric.


Remember, the PHB says that the listed spells are the most common, not the only. You, as DM, can create any spell you need for your story, so long as it's not completely unfair.

For example, I'm inventing spells that let people who have conjured a creature bind them to guard a certain area forever. Not a nice thing to do, of course, but people can bind a fiend to guard an area and so on.

Good points. I'd completely forgotten there was no arcane/divine distinction with spells in this edition. With that in mind, I'll probably just throw cleric spells onto the Lich's list and swap its wisdom and intellect (in addition to shifting around some stats for what makes sense).

Thank you everyone for your help. :)