Mighty Human?

[Gwazi Magnum]

Basically, could one imagine a template such as Mighty (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/mighty-cr-5) being used as a player race like Human, Dwarf, Orc, Goliath etc?

I'm theorizing that logically it could, if some creatures can have mighty/gifted versions then it stands that sentient and civilized beings should also have said gifted individuals.

[Spore]

Of course you could. But I feel this fits best into a mythic game because there is one famous hero/half-god I imagine when I see the stats: Hercules. Well, maybe Hercules, Thor and Loki. :)

[Gwazi Magnum]

Of course you could. But I feel this fits best into a mythic game because there is one famous hero/half-god I imagine when I see the stats: Hercules. Well, maybe Hercules, Thor and Loki. :)

Probably.

But looking at it, it seems less broken than stuff like say Dread Vampire.
Dread Vampire offers stuff like a ton of powers, immunities etc. that with player creativity can be used to deadly effectiveness both in builds and RP effectiveness.

While Mighty is just a numbers buff, a rather big one, but it's all numbers.

+10 HP for level is rather big, but a reckless character will still be slaughtered in front of the DM's infinite resources (+A Cleric's heals do not scale to Max HP, so most of this HP will largely act as Temp HP for the day).
+5 AC is honestly a needed buff for anyone, since AC diminishes rather quickly.
+5 Initiative is nice, but in truth it's only knocking one self 20% (roughly) farther up the turn order.
+5 Saving Throws is nice, but Paladin does similliar at Level 2 and it's not immunities either. Failure (and natural 1's) are still an option.
+5 Damage is nice, really good with TWF. But for most builds you can easily out perform it with Power Attack or decent Strength.
+5 Ability Check's I'm assuming is just the checks itself, which rarely pop up anyways.
+10 attack rolls? This is in my opinion it's biggest buff, sizeable, but still easily simulated elsewhere.
+15 CMD I'll refrain on comment with, because I'm more of a 3.5 player
+7 Saving Throw DC is very reliant on the class in question. Wizard? Broken as hell. Fighter? Pointless.
+DR is honestly insanely small. It only get's to DR 6 at level 18, and it overlaps other sources, even if the other source is higher.
+Immunities, this is fairly nice. But in all honesty there's a lot more things they are not protected from. Even Dread Vampire has more immunities than this.
+SR is useful, but I've seen the same thing from Drow, which are only a +2 LA race.

Then remember that Mighty is effectively LA +5 which is very sizable.

[atemu1234]

Probably.

But looking at it, it seems less broken than stuff like say Dread Vampire.
Dread Vampire offers stuff like a ton of powers, immunities etc. that with player creativity can be used to deadly effectiveness both in builds and RP effectiveness.

While Mighty is just a numbers buff, a rather big one, but it's all numbers.

+10 HP for level is rather big, but a reckless character will still be slaughtered in front of the DM's infinite resources (+A Cleric's heals do not scale to Max HP, so most of this HP will largely act as Temp HP for the day).
+5 AC is honestly a needed buff for anyone, since AC diminishes rather quickly.
+5 Initiative is nice, but in truth it's only knocking one self 20% (roughly) farther up the turn order.
+5 Saving Throws is nice, but Paladin does similliar at Level 2 and it's not immunities either. Failure (and natural 1's) are still an option.
+5 Damage is nice, really good with TWF. But for most builds you can easily out perform it with Power Attack or decent Strength.
+5 Ability Check's I'm assuming is just the checks itself, which rarely pop up anyways.
+10 attack rolls? This is in my opinion it's biggest buff, sizeable, but still easily simulated elsewhere.
+15 CMD I'll refrain on comment with, because I'm more of a 3.5 player
+7 Saving Throw DC is very reliant on the class in question. Wizard? Broken as hell. Fighter? Pointless.
+DR is honestly insanely small. It only get's to DR 6 at level 18, and it overlaps other sources, even if the other source is higher.
+Immunities, this is fairly nice. But in all honesty there's a lot more things they are not protected from. Even Dread Vampire has more immunities than this.
+SR is useful, but I've seen the same thing from Drow, which are only a +1 LA race.

Then remember that Mighty is effectively LA +5 which is very sizable.

Aren't Drow LA +2?

[Gwazi Magnum]

Aren't Drow LA +2?

*Double checks*

Oops, they are.
My bad. :/

I'll go fix that now.

[atemu1234]

*Double checks*

Oops, they are.
My bad. :/

I'll go fix that now.

Also, spell resistance in general is bad, at least statistically.

Let's say you're a level ten PC, with SR 10 + HD. This is normal.

Let's say you're a level ten sorcerer, with eighteen charisma (more or less normal at that point). No one takes feats such as spell penetration, so let's ignore that.

At level ten, to get a twenty, that PC Sorcerer needs to roll a six or higher. That's 25% chance of failure (1, 2, 3, 4, 5), and that is remarkably useless in most cases.

This isn't even taking into account both how difficult and expensive LA is. If a Drow has LA +2, and is the equivalent of a level ten PC, then it drops down to a 15% chance of failure. Boosting it is expensive, at least according to DMG guidelines, and the benefit is minimal.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Also, spell resistance in general is bad, at least statistically.

Let's say you're a level ten PC, with SR 10 + HD. This is normal.

Let's say you're a level ten sorcerer, with eighteen charisma (more or less normal at that point). No one takes feats such as spell penetration, so let's ignore that.

At level ten, to get a twenty, that PC Sorcerer needs to roll a six or higher. That's 25% chance of failure (1, 2, 3, 4, 5), and that is remarkably useless in most cases.

This isn't even taking into account both how difficult and expensive LA is. If a Drow has LA +2, and is the equivalent of a level ten PC, then it drops down to a 15% chance of failure. Boosting it is expensive, at least according to DMG guidelines, and the benefit is minimal.

That's true as well.
Partly why I don't find the Mighty Template applied to a player (at least if it's for the full LA +5) to be broken at all.

Ah Spell Resistance, you're such a fun idea but way to difficult to get a hold of.

[Psyren]

Keep in mind that Mighty is 3rd-party, so it's up to the creator whether it was intended to be available for PCs or not.

Also, PF Drow and Svirfneblin both have SR and can be played from ECL 1.

[Spore]

PF Templates feel like they're primarily for the DM. Not every template is playable, but then again an Antipaladin will either fall OR be part of an adventuring party.

[Sayt]

Keep in mind that Mighty is 3rd-party, so it's up to the creator whether it was intended to be available for PCs or not.

Also, PF Drow and Svirfneblin both have SR and can be played from ECL 1.

Dwarves, also, can also get spell resistance with a racial trait. Not good spell resistance, but hey, it forces a check.

[SinsI]

As a template, it is pretty bad.

Don't forget that you are losing 5 levels for this, so you automatically have to subtract almost half of those bonuses that you'd have gained via your class.

[Skya]

Also, spell resistance in general is bad, at least statistically.

Let's say you're a level ten PC, with SR 10 + HD. This is normal.

Let's say you're a level ten sorcerer, with eighteen charisma (more or less normal at that point). No one takes feats such as spell penetration, so let's ignore that.

At level ten, to get a twenty, that PC Sorcerer needs to roll a six or higher. That's 25% chance of failure (1, 2, 3, 4, 5), and that is remarkably useless in most cases.

This isn't even taking into account both how difficult and expensive LA is. If a Drow has LA +2, and is the equivalent of a level ten PC, then it drops down to a 15% chance of failure. Boosting it is expensive, at least according to DMG guidelines, and the benefit is minimal.

In Pathfinder ( as the title tag suggest this thread is about), the caster check vs spell resistance is only 1d20+ caster lvl, no stat involve. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Spell-Resistance-Ex-) So in your exemple, it's 50% chance of failure. Not bad.

And as said by Psyren, Drow get no LA in Pathfinder ( but the spell resistance is lower, exept with a feat.)

[Eldaran]

The caster level check vs SR is the same in 3.5 too, I have no idea what atemu1234 is talking about.

[DeAnno]

The main reasons SR is usually bad in 3.5 are:

1) It comes on Templates which have LA and eat up your HD, making your SR lower.
2) If you seem to be one of the races that has SR, people will just use SR: No spells on you.
3) Anyone who really cares probably has some kind of cheap opportunity cost skeeze to easily crack your SR unless it is godly high (True Casting, Assay SR, Marshal 1, etc)

[Doorhandle]

Basically, could one imagine a template such as Mighty (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/mighty-cr-5) being used as a player race like Human, Dwarf, Orc, Goliath etc?

I'm theorizing that logically it could, if some creatures can have mighty/gifted versions then it stands that sentient and civilized beings should also have said gifted individuals.

Of course you can. How else did these 2 get so big? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccDia1wqYK8)

[hamishspence]

I think it would be hilarious to take it on an anthropomorphic mouse character.

"Here he comes to save the day!" :smallbiggrin:

[Gwazi Magnum]

Of course you can. How else did these 2 get so big? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccDia1wqYK8)


I think it would be hilarious to take it on an anthropomorphic mouse character.

"Here he comes to save the day!" :smallbiggrin:

That would be rather fun. :P
But at the same time the template doesn't actually seem to give a size increase.
The description seems to hint you should be, but it gives no hard rules for it.

[Necromancy]

In my high power games I houserule templates in as so
(Case by case basis of course)

LA = Racial LA + Template LA - Tier

Pure monk gets mighty free and does well

[Gwazi Magnum]

In my high power games I houserule templates in as so
(Case by case basis of course)

LA = Racial LA + Template LA - Tier

Pure monk gets mighty free and does well

That's actually pretty genius.

[SinsI]

That's actually pretty genius.
The problem is what to do when your "pure monk lvl 1" takes a level of Cleric (and goes for something like Ruby Knight Vindicator).

[Necromancy]

The problem is what to do when your "pure monk lvl 1" takes a level of Cleric (and goes for something like Ruby Knight Vindicator).

No 3.5 or 3rd party

Pathfinder already has enough crap to sort through

[SinsI]

No 3.5 or 3rd party
The problem is multiclassing and not the class availabilty.

[Necromancy]

That's why its a case by case basis

To be clear on this, our group does not really level dip or do ridiculous optimization. We tend to be to heavy role play through emails between games and more battle heavy at the table. Every character at the table has a written roleplay background.

Then factor in pathfinder and its single class benefits as well.

Most characters at the table are already rough planned to 20

If you show me a character concept that has level dips in 7 different classes, I'm going to ask for a lengthy background story on your character and his lifelong struggle with severe ADHD. Then if the story can somehow manage to be role play cohesive, I'm going to assign some drawbacks and a Tier rating accordingly.

Also in pathfinder you have different exp charts you can use. It's easy to see a player becoming a problem and dumping him over to medium or slow progression