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Lolth
2007-04-12, 08:14 PM
Me again,

OK, I have a hate/love affair with Dervishes since I read the PrC.

On the one hand, I am conditioned to believe that all two-weapon fighting is helpless.

On the other, they look REALLY cool.

On the one hand, their Feat tree annoys me (I hate the Dodge/Mobility tree).

On the other, I have this sneaking suspicion that they're even cooler than I think, but I'm missing some subtleties.


Help a girl out?

With ECL 3 to worth with, and mostly standard races, how do I want to do this?

Jade_Tarem
2007-04-12, 08:16 PM
This will make you fall in love all over again.

Gnome rogue/dervish.
Jumps from one cliff, over a chasm, to another.
Stabs a hill giant 4 times.
Backflips off his face.
Lands IN the chasm - unharmed.

This sequence of awesome brought to you by dervish PrC.

That said, casters are my specialty, not melee builds.

Dhavaer
2007-04-12, 08:22 PM
Scout/Dervish is a decent combo. Dervish is one of the ways to get a powerful two-weapon fighter.

Flawless
2007-04-12, 08:24 PM
They work well for ranger/scouts with both the imrpoved skirmish and the swift tracker feats.
It's not as much extra damage as sneak attacks, but you can do it all the time when in dance of the dervish and you only lose 1 point of BAB and get TWF for free.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-12, 08:26 PM
Me again,

OK, I have a hate/love affair with Dervishes since I read the PrC.

On the one hand, I am conditioned to believe that all two-weapon fighting is helpless.

On the other, they look REALLY cool.

On the one hand, their Feat tree annoys me (I hate the Dodge/Mobility tree).

On the other, I have this sneaking suspicion that they're even cooler than I think, but I'm missing some subtleties.


Help a girl out?

With ECL 3 to worth with, and mostly standard races, how do I want to do this?


With ECL 3, you CAN'T be a Dervish yet. You can enter the prestige class at level 6 or 7 at best.

Dervish is, however, one of the best prestige classes for melee types out there.

-Two-WEapon Fighting is only useless if you have no bonus damage. Taking, say, Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2 or Scout 3/Fighter 2 gets you bonus damage on each hit, and Dervish increases that (giving you +5 AB/damage at level 10).
-Dervishes don't have to TWF! A Power Attack-using, glaive or guisarme-wielding dervish is, frankly, probably stronger than the TWFing one!
-Dervish largely negates the meleer's primary weakness: lack of mobility. getting full attacks off is a real problem in high-level play; Dervishes don't have it because they can move and full attack in the process.
-And, oh, yeah--they get a good Will save on top of that.

At ECL 3, you're looking at something like Scout 3 or Swashbuckler 3 or S1/Fighter 2. You'd need to decide whether you want to go for a "power dancer" (STR-based, two-handed weapon dervish) or a more typical TWF sort (which can also do the power dancer thing a bit with two longswords).

Lolth
2007-04-12, 08:26 PM
Well, we don't allow Scouts, sadly. :(

Other questions that occur to me:

Is it better to get the 2wf feat(s) early, and pick up Dodge/Mobility just before going in, or better to start with them and, say, a totally different weapon (Great Scimitar two-handed, then swap out for two scimitars)?

What non-Scout Classes make for interesting builds?

One of my main concerns is making a character that's effective before Dervishing, then going into that.

Lolth
2007-04-12, 08:29 PM
Oh, and I know I can't be one at ECL3, I'm talking about a build that will be interesting now and effective then.

I know I don't /have/ to 2wf, and that's definitely something open for consideration, but since I play other melee types fairly often, I thought an excuse to try one might be interesting, if it works well without Scout.

Thanks!

Edit: No Swashbucklers either, no matter how much I beg.

Classes are: Core and PhB2 classes, and Factotumses.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-12, 08:30 PM
Swashbuckler isn't bad for dervishes. If you snag EWP(Elven Courtblade)--the weapon's in Races of the Wild--then you can have a finesseable two-handed weapon (2:1 power attack, e cetera). I'd get TWF early if you're going the TWF route.

Swashbuckler 3/Fighter or Monk 2 make for a solid melee type. You can pick up Carmendine Monk (Champions of Valor) or Kung-Fu Genius (some issue of Dragon magazine) to get INT to AC instead of WIS if you go monk.

I'd take TWF before Dodge/Mobility, since Dodge/Mobility are lackluster.
However, note that Dodge/Mobility are the prerequisites for the amazing Elusive Target tactical feat in the Complete Warrior, and Dodge and Combat Reflexes make taking Karmic Strike a good choice (if you go for the heavy-hitting dervish rather than the TWFer, which I recommend).

Barbarian is also a good dip for Dervish entry, due to the speed boost--remember that you need to have enough speed to move between all of your attacks, or you won't get to take all of them while dancing!


Edit: no Swashbuckler?! But it's in the same book as Dervish!
Try Barbarian 1/Fighter 4 as an entry, then. What books can you use for feats and stuff?

With the PHB 2 open, using Knight 3/Fighter 2 and a reach weapon is also a pretty solid idea.

storybookknight
2007-04-12, 08:34 PM
Whirling Frenzy variant barbarians are pretty good at least for flavor; and extra HP and AC never hurts anyone who provokes so many AoOs.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-12, 08:34 PM
Dervishes don't provoke AoOs.

Edit: unless it's intentionally, i.e. they're of the Power Dancer variety and have Karmic Strike/Robilar's Gambit and Deft Opportunist.

Lolth
2007-04-12, 08:42 PM
Knight/Fighter? For Dervish? Explain to my poor feeble brain, please.

And yes, Dervish and Swashbuckler are in the same book, but our other DM likes PrCs more than he likes new Classes.

Elusive Target does look yummy!

Flawless
2007-04-12, 08:55 PM
If you are going to be playing on higher levels, you might want to add the tempest PrC. It essentially gives you +3 untyped bonus to AC, no attack penalties for TWF and two-weapon spring attack. The prerequisites are pretty much covered if you are a dervish.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-12, 08:56 PM
Knight 3/Fighter 2. The key here is the Knight's Bulwark of Defense ability. It makes squares you threaten count as difficult terrain, which means people can't 5' step through it (and will therefore have to provoke AoOs to close with you). Cover that with increased reach (reach weapon plus Enlarge Person spells from friendly casters or in potions, Aberration Blood + Inhuman Reach, et cetera) and enemies trying to get close to you will provoke AoOs which you can take advantage of with feats like Stand Still or Improved Trip (although Dervish prereqs make getting other feats a bit of a pain).

You'd want a decent dex and Combat Reflexes, and you'd use a guisarme (or other reach weapon if you're not tripping). Dance in, hit the enemy, dance away--and if they want to come to you, they're going to provoke AoOs in doing so, AoOs that all get the AB/damage bonus from Dervish Dance and let you freeze them in place. You can eventually pick up Deft Opportunist and Power Attack, especially if you have Imp. Trip rather than Stand Still, and hit them hard on AoOs.

Knight 3/Monk 2 can also work.


Edit: Re: Tempest--It's a trap! There are FAR better things you can do with those five levels than getting, effectively, +2 AB, +3 AC.

Jannex
2007-04-12, 09:00 PM
No Scout? That is a world of sad. :smallfrown:

Still, Dervishes can be awesome even without Scout (it's definitely one of my favorite PrCs). A fun option is Rogue (though you'll probably want to splash some Fighter, for the BAB/feats)--and with enough UMD you can get yourself some Greater Invisibility and be an invisible chainsaw. Failing that, dance yourself into a flanking position and sneak attack kicks in anyway.

I've always been fond of the Dodge tree, though admittedly Mobility becomes somewhat less useful later on, by the time you have a 14+ Tumble modifier. Then again, there's always the joy of tumbling through an opponent's own square (DC25), so it still has its uses. Taking it early probably gets the most out of it, since it's early on that the +1 dodge bonus to AC tends to matter most. At the same time, starting out with TWF will hurt your attack bonus early on (especially if you take Rogue levels), meaning you'll be less effective. Adding it later, when you have magic weapons, Ability boosting items, feats, etc. to offset the penalty might be the way to go.

Those're my thoughts, at any rate.

Flawless
2007-04-12, 09:00 PM
Edit: Re: Tempest--It's a trap! There are FAR better things you can do with those five levels than getting, effectively, +2 AB, +3 AC.

As I'm playing a dervish and am planning to get into tempest, what would you suggest instead?

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-12, 09:01 PM
Thief-Acrobat is a good choice, for one or four levels. What's your build like? Just "dervish" doesn't tell me enough.

Lolth
2007-04-12, 09:02 PM
Hmm... The Knight one sounds yummy, except for the fact that I want to use a more flavor-appropriate weapon or weapons. Something deserty.

And three ranks of Knight cut into my available Feats, though Improved Trip... *Sighs, and dreams*

I hate this PrC. It taunts me. I must master it!

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-12, 09:05 PM
I'm sure there's some appropriate reach weapon, i.e. a longspear. You can't trip with it, but you could use Stand Still.

You could also describe the guisarme as a kind of khopesh on a stick if you want to pick up Trip. Being a good tripper generally requires a lot of investment, though, as monsters will be large, strong, or both.

Lolth
2007-04-12, 09:22 PM
How does this sound?

Barbarian 1 (Movement, Skill points to put in Tumble and Perform) Any nifty Barbarian alternate Class Features that might be worth it?

Fighter 4 (to keep the BAB 'cause I want to qualify at 5)

Feats look like this (not sure of the order yet, except the obvious requirements):

Combat Expertise
Power Attack (planning on using a Great Scimitar 2H)
Weapon Focus/Specialization (though do I need to get EWP to get those for a Great Scimitar, or is it OK as long as I use it 2H?)
Dodge/Mobility and... ELUSIVE TARGET!

Please feel free to poke holes.

Flawless
2007-04-12, 09:28 PM
Thief-Acrobat is a good choice, for one or four levels. What's your build like? Just "dervish" doesn't tell me enough.

So, he's a human ranger4/scout4/dervish9 at the moment.
As for feats (I've one more than usual for a flaw (pathetic)):
- luck of hereos
- dodge
- weapon focus: scimitar
- track
- twf
- endurance
- combat expertise
- mobility
- swift tracker
- spring attack
- improved skirmish
- elusive target
- improved crit: scimitar

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-12, 10:33 PM
How does this sound?

Barbarian 1 (Movement, Skill points to put in Tumble and Perform) Any nifty Barbarian alternate Class Features that might be worth it?

Fighter 4 (to keep the BAB 'cause I want to qualify at 5)

Feats look like this (not sure of the order yet, except the obvious requirements):

Combat Expertise
Power Attack (planning on using a Great Scimitar 2H)
Weapon Focus/Specialization (though do I need to get EWP to get those for a Great Scimitar, or is it OK as long as I use it 2H?)
Dodge/Mobility and... ELUSIVE TARGET!

Please feel free to poke holes.


Keep raising Perform(Dance) with fighter skill points, cross-class.

Weapon Specialization is a rather weak feat; EWP(Great Scimitar) is pretty pointless. Why not use a Falchion? D&D falchions are just big, two-handed scrimitars. That sounds like what you're looking for. You'd be better off with a reach weapon, but a falchion will work fine.

So, as a human:

1: Combat Expertise, Weapon Focus
F1: Power Attack
F2: Dodge
3: Mobility
F4: Combat Reflexes
6: Elusive Target
9: Karmic Strike

If you take a Flaw, you can get Combat Reflexes at first level, and move Karmic Strike down to level 4. You can then proceed to take Deft Opportunist. A reach weapon would definitely help with this, as otherwise big enemies can attack you from outside your reach. Stats, in order of importance, are STR > DEX & CON > everything else. You want a decent Dex for plenty of AoOs with Combat Reflexes. The basic idea is to Power Attack for a bunch, still hitting because of your Dervish Dance bonuses, and to provoke lots of AoOs as you dance around people; when they hit you, hit them back thanks to Karmic Strike (or to Robilar's Gambit, if you delay that until level 12, or take both; the Gambit gives them +4 damage, but lets you take your AoO even if they miss you)--harder than they hit you. AoOs are made at your full AB (+4, with Deft Opportunist), so you can hit with them even while Power Attacking for a whole bunch.

Monk 3/Fighter 2 would also be an option.


So, he's a human ranger4/scout4/dervish9 at the moment.
As for feats (I've one more than usual for a flaw (pathetic)):
- luck of hereos
- dodge
- weapon focus: scimitar
- track
- twf
- endurance
- combat expertise
- mobility
- swift tracker
- spring attack
- improved skirmish
- elusive target
- improved crit: scimitar

Well, taking Ranger to 6 after Dervish 10 would give you ITWF. You should then take Greater TWF with a bonus feat gained from Fighter or Psychic Warrior. I'm not sure why you still only have just TWF; Imp. Crit was a bit of a waste IMO. Well, take the TWF feats whenever you can. Fighter 2 or PsyWar 2 makes for a much better finish than Tempest does.

Flawless
2007-04-12, 11:00 PM
Oh, I forgot to mention that we houseruled that twf gives iterative attacks according to BAB. So no need for itwf and gtwf.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-12, 11:06 PM
Oh, that's a nice house rule. In that case Swordsage 2 is probably the best thing you can do. WIS to AC in light armor, and a bunch of useful maneuvers.

Thief-Acrobat is also solid if you've got the prereqs.

Flawless
2007-04-12, 11:12 PM
Oh, that's a nice house rule. In that case Swordsage 2 is probably the best thing you can do. WIS to AC in light armor, and a bunch of useful maneuvers.

Thief-Acrobat is also solid if you've got the prereqs.

Thanks so far. But we don't play with martial adepts... And I have just looked up the thief acrobat and I don't see what it adds to my build. I mean kip is nice, as is agile fighting, but I loose BAB.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-12, 11:16 PM
Kip-Up and agile fighting; you lose 1 point of BAB.

Taking Ranger to 6 could be worthwhile--if TWF includes all three feats, what do Rangers get at levels 6 and 11 instead of their usual Combat Style?

I suppose tempest's all right for you, since you didn't build aiming for anything else. It's not bad, it's just that it's sort of mediocre overall.

Flawless
2007-04-12, 11:30 PM
Taking Ranger to 6 could be worthwhile--if TWF includes all three feats, what do Rangers get at levels 6 and 11 instead of their usual Combat Style?


My DM ruled that rangers get two-weapon-defense at level 6 and two-weapon-rend at level 11 as quasi bonus feats.

After looking through the CAdv for the thief-acrobat I stumbled over the highland stalker. That one seems pretty interesting. Full BAB and a +1d6 skirmish as well as mountain stride.

EDIT: Although I get the same with two more levels of ranger skirmish-wise...

Lolth
2007-04-12, 11:46 PM
Deft Opportunist is where? Does what? Sorry, don't know that one.

I was also thinking that Specialization also allows me to take some of the mastery stuff at a later level.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-12, 11:53 PM
Deft Opportunist is in the Complete Adventurer. Gives +4 AB when you make AoOs (like the ones Karmic Strike gets you).

There are generally better feats than Weapon Mastery, but if you take it then the WF/Spec/Mastery line isn't thatbad.

Lolth
2007-04-13, 12:13 AM
Would you take Karmic Strike before Deft Opportunist, of vice-versa? Since there will be a gap of three levels I'll actually have to earn IC (not fast) between them, if I go this way, I need to be wise about the order in picking them.

Thanks!

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-13, 12:20 AM
Karmic Strike first. Deft Opportunist is pretty pointless without it, as you won't be making lots of AoOs normally (due to your lack of reach).

Stay on friendly terms with the cleric. Shell out for a Wand of Cure Light wounds he can use on you. :)

Lolth
2007-04-13, 12:31 AM
I'm pretty good at provoking AoOs as it happens. And our game tends to be less about Reach. I could switch weapons I suppose, but I just like the flavor.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-13, 12:32 AM
No, that's fine; I just mean that you'll have fewer opportunities to take AoOs without a reach weapon, so you want Karmic Strike before you take Deft Opportunist.

Lolth
2007-04-13, 12:40 AM
Well, looks like the DM isn't allowing Deft Opportunist or Karmic Strike, so it's kinda moot anyhow. Now I need to reconsider Specialization without those. I can take Robilar's at 12, but that is sooo far from where I am now, so I won't worry about it for now.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-13, 12:42 AM
If you've got no better options, consider Endurance + Steadfast Determination from the PHB II. That'll let you use CON instead of WIS for will saves, making them solid instead of a weak point. Take Combat Reflexes at 9 and Robilar's Gambit at 12.

Hunter Noventa
2007-04-13, 01:22 AM
I've currently got a Fighter2/Warblade5/Dervish4 (I got Tome of battle after leveling the character with Swashbuckler instead and rebuilt)

I just want to say the Movement Mastery is an incredible skill to combine with the Tiger Claw school. A lot of it's abilities require jump checks...but you get to take 10 on them! There is something way too delicious about being able to jump across the battlefield with ease.

AtomicKitKat
2007-04-13, 01:34 AM
Linky to Dervish Handbook (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=629013)

Note that Bulwark of Defense requires them to start the turn being threatened by you, so you basically have to keep dancing around in such a way that they are stuck next to you(or at least, within your threat zone, if you have spiked armour/shields, with a reach weapon).

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-13, 01:38 AM
Whoops--my bad on Bulwark of Defense, then. This is why Tome of Battle is beter; the Thicket of Blades stance just means people provoke no matter what.

Pocket lint
2007-04-13, 05:27 AM
BWL: What did you mean about dervishes not provoking AoO? Or did you just mean that you generally have more than +14 to Tumble? (Evil DM gives opponents a reflex save against the tumble check to get one in anyway)

My current build: Rogue 4 / SwB 4 / Dervish all the way, baby. Nice DM lets me use scimitar as a finesseable weapon even before taking the first level dervish, since we already had one rapier-wielding rogue in the party. Flavour, mostly, since they have almost the same stats.

Human: Weapon focus (scimitar)
1: Dodge
3: Combat expertise
6: Daring outlaw, from Complete Scoundrel.
9: Mobility

I plan on taking the TWF/ITWF later on, but will probably skip GTWF and buy some boots of speed instead. Base move 75!

Sneak damage +4d6, bonus damage from Str and Int. Lose 1 BAB compared with straight melee fighter, sorely short on feats, but on the other hand I have a nice range of skills. A notable achilles heel is Fort saves. Not one of the classes had a good progression there...

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-13, 05:38 AM
BWL: What did you mean about dervishes not provoking AoO? Or did you just mean that you generally have more than +14 to Tumble? (Evil DM gives opponents a reflex save against the tumble check to get one in anyway)
TWF dervishers are dex-based, and have Tumble ranks, so can just tumble instead of provoking, yes.
THF STR-based dervishes have Karmic Strike when built solidly and therefore *want* to provoke AoOs so they can dish out the pain with Karmic Strike AoOs.

Lolth
2007-04-13, 05:58 PM
Well, here's my planned build, with one possible change:

At Level 5/Fighter 4, is Melee Evasion any good? (PhB2) I look at it and see a really good chance to get AC15 at that level. I mean, maybe it's great when your BAB is +15 and you have no magic armor, but at lower levels it seems a waste. Am I wrong?


Jehan is unmistakably a daughter of the desert tribes, a doe-eyed, deceptively soft and quiet with rare, red-gold curls and a willowy figure. Her voice is pleasantly husky and carries a distinct sunlands accent. [Strength 14/Charisma 10] *Chain Shirt, *Great Scimitar, *Composite Longbow.


Jehan

Human Barbarian 1, Fighter 2

ECL 0, Experience: 3,000

Chaotic Good

Strength 14
Dexterity 14
Constitution 14
Intelligence 14
Wisdom 10
Charisma 10

Hit Points: 29

Languages: Common, Elvish and Undercommon.

Skills: Balance 2(+4), Handle Animal 6(+6), Jump 6(+8), Listen 4(+4), Perform (Dance) 2(+2), Ride 6(+10), Survival 4(+4), Tumble 2(+6)

Feats: Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Great Scimitar).

Flaw: Murky-Eyed.

Racial Abilities: Bonus Feat, Extra Skills.

Class Abilities: Barbarian (Fast Movement, Illiteracy, Rage 1/day), Fighter (Bonus Feats)

Attacks: Base Attack Bonus +3, Melee +5, Ranged +5

Saves: Fortitude 5(+7), Reflex 0(+2), Will 0(+0)


Planned upgrades: Improved Trip at Level 5/Fighter 4, then Elusive Target at Level 6/Dervish 1. (Hence Improved Trip, to work with Elusive Target.)

Anyone have any better ideas?

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-13, 09:39 PM
Well, here's my planned build, with one possible change:

At Level 5/Fighter 4, is Melee Evasion any good? (PhB2) I look at it and see a really good chance to get AC15 at that level. I mean, maybe it's great when your BAB is +15 and you have no magic armor, but at lower levels it seems a waste. Am I wrong?
Melee Evasion is essentially always going to be a terrible feat. Skip it.



Jehan is unmistakably a daughter of the desert tribes, a doe-eyed, deceptively soft and quiet with rare, red-gold curls and a willowy figure. Her voice is pleasantly husky and carries a distinct sunlands accent. [Strength 14/Charisma 10] *Chain Shirt, *Great Scimitar, *Composite Longbow. Darlin'--doe-eyed or not, she's a Fighter, wears armor, and hits people with swords on a regular basis. She should probably have too much muscle mass to be willowy.
Incidentally, why only a 14 strength? No higher stats? Ouch.


Strength 14
Dexterity 14
Constitution 14
Intelligence 14
Wisdom 10
Charisma 10Aha. Is this point-buy? If so, you'll definitely want to free up the points for a 16 strength, at least. Drop INT to 12, maybe, and WIS to 8 (you can take Endurance + Steadfast Determination later to compensate).


Skills: Balance 2(+4), Handle Animal 6(+6), Jump 6(+8), Listen 4(+4), Perform (Dance) 2(+2), Ride 6(+10), Survival 4(+4), Tumble 2(+6) Dervish dance duration is based on perform(dance). You should max it out at a 2:1 cost when you're taking fighter levels. Raising Tumble would also be good.


Feats: Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Great Scimitar).

Flaw: Murky-Eyed. I suggest "Shaky", actually; Murky-Eyed will be a pain whenever there's a miss chance.


Attacks: Base Attack Bonus +3, Melee +5, Ranged +5 Melee AB should be +6 with Weapon Focus.
Get a strength-boosting item soon's you can, natch.


Planned upgrades: Improved Trip at Level 5/Fighter 4, then Elusive Target at Level 6/Dervish 1. (Hence Improved Trip, to work with Elusive Target.)

Anyone have any better ideas?Improved Trip is a bit of a poor choice because you're going to be doing it with no particular bonuses besides STR and the +4 from Improved Trip, which just isn't enough. Elusive Target's real value is the "redirect an attack when flanked" option, with the "negate Power Attack from dodge target" option coming in a close second.
Endurance + Steadfast Determination would cover your weak will save. Plus, weren't you gonna take Karmic Strike?

Karmic Strike + Elusive Target would probably be your best bet, with Endurance + Steadfast Determination ASAP after that.

Lolth
2007-04-13, 10:54 PM
Yeah, the "willowy" is dramatic license, and meant to be more an impression of grace. :P

As for the crunch, I just can't get Karmic Strike, not allowed the Feat, nothing I can do about it or I would.

As for Strength, I'm just not that in love with paying 2:1 for (to me) limited returns.

I thought about Shaky, but I thought shooting once in a while before leveling might be good. I'll definitely re-think, since it's set in the Underdark, so miss chances for a non-Darkvision haver aren't going to be rare.

The attack bonuses shown are just our local format. That's "before individual bonuses from a weapon or Feat that doesn't apply to everything."

re: Raising Perform and Tumble, I agree, and Levels 4 and 5, Skillwise, will be all about raising them to the limit (4) before going Dervish, and maxing them silly then, when they're not CC. While having Perform maxed then is important, between now and then, not so much.

What else can help with Trip checks (than Str+4) <- which to me seems decent since I'd mostly be tripping people, not dinosaurs, but I am absolutely willing to listen.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-13, 11:02 PM
Oh, right, I forgot about the lack of Karmic Strike. You don't need Combat Reflexes for anything, then; ditch that and take Endurance in its place, with Steadfast Determination (which means you can safely dump that WIS to 8, incidentally, since you'll use CON for will saves) and Elusive Target as your level 4 and 6 feats.
An alternative to Endurance/Steadfast Determination is getting Weapon Specialization and then Melee Weapon Mastery whenever you can. I'd recommend covering that will save, though.

What Can Help With Trip Checks: a couple of feats you don't have access to, like Wolf Lodge Berserker from the Unapproachable East book. A higher strength. A Sweeping weapon enhancement (from Magic of Faerun, reprinted as 3.5 recently in the Magic Item Compendium; +1-equivalent). Size increases (Enlarge Person spells or potions; manifesting the Expansion psionic power). Tripping is best done with a reach weapon, though.

You need the higher strength. You're the fighter--hitting things is what you do. Losing 2 INT and 2 WIS should be more than worth it.

Lolth
2007-04-13, 11:20 PM
What do you think about the idea of trying a build like this as a Halfling?

Str remaining 14 (as if 16), extra attack bonus and AC. It's only 1 less damage from Strength and a d6 instead of d8 for damage, much better Tumbling. Lose 1 Feat, but I can live with that I guess.

Jasdoif
2007-04-13, 11:23 PM
What do you think about the idea of trying a build like this as a Halfling?

Str remaining 14 (as if 16), extra attack bonus and AC. It's only 1 less damage from Strength and a d6 instead of d8 for damage, much better Tumbling. Lose 1 Feat, but I can live with that I guess.Halflings are small. Do you really want to take that -4 to your trip attempts?

Lolth
2007-04-13, 11:28 PM
Well, I'd be abandoning the Trip plan. One less Feat, works out.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-14, 05:42 AM
I wouldn't do it. You'd be paying for 16 STR without getting it. Human's best.

Gungnir
2007-04-14, 10:25 AM
BWL, we need to get you a private classroom, some desks, and a projector.

Talya
2007-04-14, 10:34 AM
Dervishes don't provoke AoOs.



Apart from reach weapons, please explain this?
Spring attack only works once per round...a dervish in close melee is going to be provoking a whole lot of them.
Unless you mean they avoid them by tumbling (which means they still provoke AOOs, so must tumble to avoid provoking them.)

Dervish is my favorite melee PRC...it's just so...graceful!
(It also needs to be added to the official character sheet for "Drizzt Do'Urden" --Whom I don't hate, i just hate all his copycats--it's the only way a 2 scimitar style like his is really viable.)

Matthew
2007-04-14, 10:39 AM
It is not a Class Feature, it is just on account of their Tumble Skill, apparently.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-14, 03:20 PM
Yeah, any Finesse-using Dervish will have a Dexterity as high as they can manage, and Tumble ranks. By the time they pick up the Dervish class, tumbling to avoid AoOs won't be a big deal.

Annarrkkii
2007-04-14, 04:13 PM
Well, here's my planned build, with one possible change:

At Level 5/Fighter 4, is Melee Evasion any good? (PhB2) I look at it and see a really good chance to get AC15 at that level. I mean, maybe it's great when your BAB is +15 and you have no magic armor, but at lower levels it seems a waste. Am I wrong?

Melee Evasion, as Bears noted, really isn't worth it. With the build you already have, you'll need a BAB of around +10 before you can produce reliable rolls higher than your AC, at the least. Perhaps useful to negate touch spells, but with a 1/round usage its not worth it otherwise. Especially since it's only vs. your Dodge target.



Jehan is unmistakably a daughter of the desert tribes, a doe-eyed, deceptively soft and quiet with rare, red-gold curls and a willowy figure. Her voice is pleasantly husky and carries a distinct sunlands accent. [Strength 14/Charisma 10] *Chain Shirt, *Great Scimitar, *Composite Longbow.

Again, Bears is correct. Average human scores are 13,12,11,10,9,8. That means an average dock worker or town guardsmen has 13 strength, perhaps 14. You are not "willowy." :P



Jehan

Human Barbarian 1, Fighter 2

ECL 0, Experience: 3,000


You are actually ECL 3. LA +0, but ECL 3.



Chaotic Good

Strength 14
Dexterity 14
Constitution 14
Intelligence 14
Wisdom 10
Charisma 10


I disagree with Bears's suggestion of dropping to 12 INT, as that negates your opportunity to explore the Combat Expertise tree, which is often a good plan for Dervishes. As well as being a requisite for the PrC. However, I agree that you're going to want a higher STR score. Consider dropping WIS to 8, and putting those 2 spare points into STR, bumping it to 15. Ideally, you would also then drop CHA to 8, or INT to 13 and CHA to 9, and put it the rest of the way to 16, but you could leave it at 15 and use your ECL 4 add-on to make it a nice, round 16.



Skills: Balance 2(+4), Handle Animal 6(+6), Jump 6(+8), Listen 4(+4), Perform (Dance) 2(+2), Ride 6(+10), Survival 4(+4), Tumble 2(+6)
Handle Animal? Ride? Dervishes move faster than horses, in general. Especially Barbarian/Dervishes. And you have no Animal Companion. Use some of these ranks to pump Perform (dance) and Tumble. There CC nature is rough, but you still need them to be a viable Dervish. If you're feeling particularly scouty, you could also drop a few of Ride and Handle Animal into Spot or Listen.



Feats: Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Great Scimitar).


Without a reach weapon, Combat Reflexes is not really going to help you. Makes you something more of a defensive wall, but you really don't need it. Especially once you're more mobile. I don't see why Karmic Strike was booted, but, seeing as it was, you have a few other options instead. With Power Attack already in place, you can explore a few options down that line—Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Sunder. Intimidating Raging works well, especially since you've already invested in some CHA. Intimidate is a class skill for both Bbn and Ftr, so you could drop a few ranks into it. Extra Rage is a good idea, too, since you're only dipping in Bbn, for the most part, and won't have too many uses of it per day. Extend Rage is so-so, but useful for the same reason. Reckless Rage from Races of Stone grants you an additional +2 STR and CON when raging, at the expense of additional AC penalty. Of these, I most strongly recommend Extra Rage.

As for tripping, I am going to do the unthinkable contest Bears on this one. Grab Prone Attack, and you're at no disadvantage when tripped. Even more importantly, with Elusive Target's Cause Overreach, you can make free trip attempts. With Improved Trip, any that succeed will be immediately followed by a normal attack against your now-prone foe. +5 STR bonus when raging and +4 from Improved Trip mean you can and will succeed on a trip at least from time to time. The only downside to this is that you are going to have to voluntarily start provoking AoOs by moving away from a foe, and Rage is already dropping your AC a bit. Mobility helps compensate, but consider fighting defensively on occasion. This build would be even more viable were you to switch to a lighter weapon, or just a bigger, finessable one, and dip a few levels of Duelist to grab Enhanced mobility and Int to AC.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-14, 04:22 PM
My bad about the int. Focusing on raging is a bad move, since you can't rage while using the Dervish Dance abiity. Besides which, it's a bunch of feats that could be better spent, all for an ability that only has better-than-even odds against some humanoids and Small monsters; a whole lot of things just won't, effectively, be trippable.

Annarrkkii
2007-04-14, 04:24 PM
True. But I was merely pointing out that it is plausible to build a trip-monkey from the above start. Sort of. And... truth be told, I didn't know you couldn't rage and dance at the same time.

the_tick_rules
2007-04-14, 05:01 PM
i never much felt the dervish class but if ya enjoy it that is what matters. tempest is pretty sweet.

Annarrkkii
2007-04-14, 09:24 PM
Tempest is a lie. They are not the masters of two-weapon fighting. The only ability worth taking is the Two-Weapon Spring Attack. Otherwise, you're better of taking Fighter.

The 3.0 Tempest, now. THAT was a thing of beauty. 10 levels, nifted out abilities. Now they've been nerfed to 5 levels and robbed of their usefulness.

the_tick_rules
2007-04-14, 09:32 PM
really, i find their +3 ac, +7 attack bonus in 5 levels, and weapon versatility is awesome. but then again it's my character, so he'll take whatever levels i tell him to.

Abstruse
2007-04-16, 10:10 PM
In regards to precursors to dervish, would the bonuses for movement from Barbarian and Scout stack? The class description of barbarian says merely that their speed is 10 feet faster than the norm for his race, while that for scout specifically names it as a enhancement bonus.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-16, 10:16 PM
Yes, they would.

Talya
2007-04-16, 10:27 PM
If you want a fun (non-optimized) two handed weapon that really fits the dervish class, the "Great Falchion" in Sandstorm is an exotic 2h, 1d12 & 18-20/x2.

Just imagine the scimitar to end all scimitars... (damn, imagine a goliath dervish with a large one of those? 3d6 18-20/x2...massive strength...too bad Goliath doesn't fit the arabian style that well.) ;)

Hey, BWL ...how can you use a longspear with dervish dance? It's a peircing weapon, is it not? Dervish dance requires slashing...

Sabattus
2007-04-17, 06:24 AM
But who's to say that goliaths don't have a dervish-like culture of their own, in a given campaign? (Well, aside from the DM saying "No. Not just no, but HELL no." *grin* )

Barbarian and scout stacking does make for a nasty dervish. 50-foot move, plus evasion, improved uncanny dodge, and regular plus skirmish damage with each attack the character makes just at the beginning of dervish? Its weakness lies in the lack of feats outside those required to get to dervish. Skills and other abilities, though, are well set.

Zincorium
2007-04-17, 06:44 AM
Well, I will dissent on the tempest addition to dervish on one account, after the classic build (swash 3/ftr 2/dervish 10) with two weapon fighting, there's not much reason not to take it.

Swashbuckler isn't a very good class to take more than three levels unless you're in the habit of charging in odd situations or have Daring Outlaw. So taking more of that wouldn't be all that good. Taking fighter means you only gain two more feats and end up with a completely dead level at 20.

With Tempest, you should already have all the feats, it's a full BAB class, and it gives you +3 defense and effectively +2 to hit. You can also use a different weapon as a backup and still get weapon focus.

You don't gain much, but the other options I see have some tradeoff, whether it's additional feats that detract from the TWF progression or lower BAB. Fighter isn't bad, but it's not that much better.

Talya
2007-04-17, 07:14 AM
Swashbuckler 3 is only better than fighter 4 if you have 16 or more intelligence. Weapon Specialization at +2 is better than insightful strike at +2 because it is not precision damage, it affects every target. Certainly fighter 4, swashbuckler 1 is perfect if you have 15 or lower intelligence and plan to use scimitars. If not you're better off with barbarian or some other class instead of a 5th level of fighter, which does nothing for you...might as well dip in for a feat/ability you want.

Ramza00
2007-04-17, 07:53 AM
From an optimization standpoint consider using the Drow Scorpion Chain in Races of Eberron. It appearance is of a spiked chain, but it is slightly different and it is slashing. It can be used with Weapon Finesse thus the Swashbuckler 3 insightful strike for int and str to damage+reach.

Unfortunately it "isn't a spiked chain" thus you can't also make it a shadowhand weapon and get str, int, and dex to damage. A normal spiked chain is a shadow hand weapon, a drow scorpion chain isn't. You can get your DM to okay it, but that would be a house rule.

That said I don't like spiked chains :smallwink:

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-17, 08:04 AM
Swashbuckler 3 is only better than fighter 4 if you have 16 or more intelligence. Weapon Specialization at +2 is better than insightful strike at +2 because it is not precision damage, it affects every target. Certainly fighter 4, swashbuckler 1 is perfect if you have 15 or lower intelligence and plan to use scimitars. If not you're better off with barbarian or some other class instead of a 5th level of fighter, which does nothing for you...might as well dip in for a feat/ability you want.

Even if your swashbuckler starts with 14 INT, odds are likely he'll boost that with a Headband of Intellect at some point.

Talya
2007-04-17, 08:13 AM
Even if your swashbuckler starts with 14 INT, odds are likely he'll boost that with a Headband of Intellect at some point.

On that...I had a DM rule that the text of Insightful Strike indicated that it was to be treated similarly to strength bonus damage.

As such, he halved it on the off-hand.

Is there any specific ruling from Wizards on that?

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-17, 08:19 AM
Um, that house rule has absolutely no basis in the text. There's no specific ruling just because there's no need for one, it's supposed to be obvious.
The "half STR to damage on the offhand" is a clause for STR specifically. Doesn't apply to anything else, no reason why it would.

Pocket lint
2007-04-17, 08:21 AM
The precision damage doesn't multiply by 1.5 for two-handed attacks, after all...

Talya
2007-04-17, 08:26 AM
The precision damage doesn't multiply by 1.5 for two-handed attacks, after all...

True, although light/finessable 2 handers are rare enough that I am not sure anyone's ever tried. Any spiked chain swashbucklers out there?

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-17, 08:28 AM
It's a solid enough choice, if only because you reallyneed that 2:1 power attack ratio when you're not getting a high strength to damage.