Master of Pummeling Style Questions

[Red Fel]

Alright. I'm currently revisiting an unarmed build I worked on awhile ago, and a thought occurred. The build in question involved a three-level dip into Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk), and several questions arose.

1. The Master of Many Styles (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/master-of-many-styles) archetype trades out bonus feats, flurry of blows, and perfect self, for the ability to take Style feats without having to meet a bunch of irritating prereqs. Pummeling Style (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/pummeling-style-combat-style) is a Style feat. Does that mean that a MoMS Monk can take Pummeling Style at level 1? My instinct is yes.

2. A MoMS, at 1st level, 2nd level, and every 4 levels thereafter, may take another Style feat or a feat in its chain. Does that mean that a MoMS 2 can take Pummeling Charge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/pummeling-charge-combat)? I ask because, although Pummeling Charge is in the Pummeling Style chain, it is not the "next" feat in the chain; Pummeling Bully (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/pummeling-bully-combat), which has a lower level/BAB cost, is sort of next. On the other hand, Pummeling Charge does not require Pummeling Bully as a prereq, so there's not really a technical "next" in the chain. So my instinct is yes.

3. A MoMS gives up flurry of blows. In exchange, he gains access to Style feats much sooner than he might otherwise qualify, and gains the ability to fuse multiple styles (as per the fuse styles ability). However, if the MoMS is only going to be taking Monk for 3 levels, and thus only going to have two feats (in this example, Pummeling Style and Pummeling Charge), is that a fair exchange? Take it a step further; this PC will be taking levels in Champion of Irori (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/c-d/champion-of-the-enlightened), which advances the flurry of blows ability. In essence, is it worth gaining Pounce and losing flurry (as a Monk 13)? My instinct is yes, but I'd welcome opinions.

[stack]

MoMS is at the heart of many PF martial optimization builds. They really didn't think things all the way through with that one, so it is ridiculously dippable.

So, 1 - Yes, 2 - Yes, 3 - depends on the build, but probably.

[Psyren]

1) Yes, a MoMS monk can take Pummeling Style at 1st level. (Actually, other monks - the ones with FoB - can do this too.)

2) Yes, a MoMS monk can take Pummeling Charge at 2nd level. (Note that Pummeling Bully is not required for Pummeling Charge anyway. Note also that, without flurry, PC doesn't really do anything for you at this level - you only have the one attack anyway, barring extra things like TWF or haste.)

3) While you can use MoMS to get Pummeling Charge early, you can also pick it up later. Still, this does allow you to have it available for whenever you do get multiple attacks, without having to wait. Consider throwing another style feat in there so you can get some mileage out of Fuse Style, and use Combat Style Master so that you don't have to waste another action turning them both on.

[Red Fel]

3) While you can use MoMS to get Pummeling Charge early, you can also pick it up later. Still, this does allow you to have it available for whenever you do get multiple attacks, without having to wait. Consider throwing another style feat in there so you can get some mileage out of Fuse Style, and use Combat Style Master so that you don't have to waste another action turning them both on.

This raises an interesting point. The build in question isn't exactly feat-starved, but it does require a number of its feats upfront to maximize effectiveness early on. (It's a Wis- and Cha-focused unarmed build, so it uses feats like Guided Hand (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/-guided-hand); it's also designed to take Angel Wings (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/angel-wings-aasimar) as early as possible, which carries its own feat tax.) The question, then, is whether it's more worthwhile to take Pummeling Charge early so that it comes online as soon as BAB rises, and to avoid the annoying prereqs, or whether it's worthwhile to grab something like Dragon Style, which seems to synergize nicely with Pummeling Style/Charge, and hold off on Pummeling Charge until (much) later.

So I'll ask that question. Which is more worthwhile? PC upfront, ignoring prereqs, or dual-style upfront, and PC later?

[Psyren]

So I'll ask that question. Which is more worthwhile? PC upfront, ignoring prereqs, or dual-style upfront, and PC later?

Do both. Dragon Style has extremely easy prereqs; you don't have to blow one of your bonus feats on it, just get it normally. For example:

Bonus Feat 1 - Pummeling Style
Bonus Feat 2 - Pummeling Charge
Regular Feat 3 - Dragon Style

[Red Fel]

Do both. Dragon Style has extremely easy prereqs; you don't have to blow one of your bonus feats on it, just get it normally. For example:

Bonus Feat 1 - Pummeling Style
Bonus Feat 2 - Pummeling Charge
Regular Feat 3 - Dragon Style

The only challenge with Dragon Style, really, is the Str prereq. Ironically, in this build, I was planning on dumping Int and Str; it would focus primarily on weaponized Cha and Wis, with Con and Dex for survival.

Yeah, I suppose with the right stat distribution, Dragon Style could come into the build later on. It's not as big a deal. The question wasn't whether I wanted to do one or the other in a vacuum, but rather which one I wanted to do first. And you're right; the prereqs on PC are tougher, and it'd be more valuable to get it upfront and for free.

[Psyren]

The only challenge with Dragon Style, really, is the Str prereq. Ironically, in this build, I was planning on dumping Int and Str; it would focus primarily on weaponized Cha and Wis, with Con and Dex for survival.

Yeah, I suppose with the right stat distribution, Dragon Style could come into the build later on. It's not as big a deal. The question wasn't whether I wanted to do one or the other in a vacuum, but rather which one I wanted to do first. And you're right; the prereqs on PC are tougher, and it'd be more valuable to get it upfront and for free.

Yeah, CoI requires quite a bit of MAD. Pity, because Dragon Style is indeed one of the best and easiest combinations with Pummeling Style.

If you must dump Str, consider dumping it to 9 so you can get a +6 physical stats belt later and pick it up then. That, or go with 4 levels of MoMS monk so you can grab it prereq-free alongside PS and PC.

[Red Fel]

Yeah, CoI requires quite a bit of MAD. Pity, because Dragon Style is indeed one of the best and easiest combinations with Pummeling Style.

If you must dump Str, consider dumping it to 9 so you can get a +6 physical stats belt later and pick it up then. That, or go with 4 levels of MoMS monk so you can grab it prereq-free alongside PS and PC.

Well, the current level-spread for the build is Cleric (Crusader) 1/ Monk (MoMS) 3/ Paladin (Hospitaler) 2/ CoI 10/ ???. ??? is likely to be more Paladin levels. I could squeeze in another Monk level, which makes good sense for MoMS, before CoI, but that would mean I wouldn't even start the PrC before level 8, and would have all of 3 leftover levels afterwards (not that anyone gets that far in a campaign nowadays).

More painfully, it means I'd have to think harder about how to split up my Paladin and Monk levels in order to remain relevant. The build relies on both the Monk's unarmed progression and the Paladin's smite evil to perform consistently, and overemphasizing one over the other could lead to a dip in usefulness.

On the other hand, free bonus feat, and magic weapons via ki pool. Hrm.