So Skalds might be able to grant DR19/- to their allies...

[Deadkitten]

Damage Reduction (Ex): At 9th level, a skald gains damage reduction. Subtract 1 from the damage the skald takes each time he is dealt damage from a weapon or a natural attack. At 14th and 19th levels, this damage reduction increases by 1. Damage reduction can reduce damage to 0, but not below 0. Additionally, the skald grants this DR to all allies affected by his inspired rage.
The "source" of the DR provided to allies the the ammount of DR that the Skald posesses.

Increased Damage Reduction (Ex): The barbarian's damage reduction increases by 1/—. This increase is always active while the barbarian is raging. A barbarian can select this rage power up to three times. Its effects stack. A barbarian must be at least 8th level before selecting this rage power.
The Increased Damage Reduction rage power does exactly what it says it does, Increase your Damage Reduction. If a Skald has this rage power then his DR will increase, thus the ammount that is provided to his allies during inspired rage will likewise increase.
*It also says that it stacks with itself*
It is an increase to the ORIGINAL source of the DR, the Skald's.

Rage Powers (Ex): At 3rd level and every 3 levels thereafter, a skald learns a rage power that affects the skald and any allies under the influence of his inspired rage. This cannot be a rage power that requires the creature to spend a standard action or rounds of rage to activate it. For example, the skald cannot choose terrifying howl (which requires a standard action to activate), but can choose knockback (which is made in place of a melee attack).
Now when the Skald grants his rage powers to his allies, they are treated as if they have those rage powers, and since Increased Damage reduction only cares about increasing the DR that you have,It should increase the amount given to you by the Skald, which is already boosted by the Increased Damage Reduction rage power.
This is no a case of someone having DR from more than one source, it is an increase of the original source.

[Deadkitten]

I'm going to give an example of how this could work, though keep in mind this build is not particularly practical or optimized.
Rage powers:
3rd: Animal Fury
6th: Intimidating Glare
9th: Dragon Totem
12th: Dragon Totem Resilience
15th:Increased Damage Reductuon
18th:Increased Damage Reduction
Skald 20 base DR is 3(base)+4(Dragon Totem Resilience)+2(Increased Damage Reduction), for a total of DR 9/-
(You could potentially wear a Heroes Hauberk and some Orange Shoanti War Paint for an extra 2 DR.)
That gives your allies from 9-11 DR base from Inspire Rage. Then the Rage Powers you Provide increase that by +6 DR, for DR 15-17. More if they are also wearing Shoanti War Paint and Heroes Hauberk.
Theoretically this can get up to DR 19/-.
(Forgive me if math is off, I am doing this by phone.)

[Ssalarn]

Worth noting that the Dragon Totem rage powers are poorly worded, and the NPCs that Paizo has released with them don't raise the actual DR, just the formula for determining the resistance granted.

[Kurald Galain]

Given Paizo's recent FAQs I'm certain that these powers don't stack in that particular fashion either.

[icefractal]

It's pretty cool. I don't think it's at all overpowered, though I'm sure the Paizo forums would disagree. You're a 20th level character, your peers are creating their own demiplane networks and bringing in Pit Fiends to do their laundry. Making the whole party impervious to (some) low-level mooks is about the least you should be capable of.

[Psyren]

OP, I think you're double-counting somewhere. Also, the skald grants "this DR to his allies" - which means separate sources like the war paint, even if they stack for the skald, won't be transferred elsewhere.

[Amphetryon]

Folks have found ways to make Akashic Characters do upwards of 2k DPR. Many forms of dealing with adversaries ignore DR in any form. DR19/-, at the level of play you're talking about, would be hard-pressed to register more than "that's cute" from many around here.

[Deadkitten]

OP, I think you're double-counting somewhere. Also, the skald grants "this DR to his allies" - which means separate sources like the war paint, even if they stack for the skald, won't be transferred elsewhere.

Well the point of the build is that you do get to double count those rage powers.:smalltongue:

But I digress, I will admit that my numbers could be off and that the war paint and the haubruck might not stack, but that only brings the DR down to like 13-15.

I could give a more detailed answer if I wasn't on my phone.

[Deadkitten]

Folks have found ways to make Akashic Characters do upwards of 2k DPR. Many forms of dealing with adversaries ignore DR in any form. DR19/-, at the level of play you're talking about, would be hard-pressed to register more than "that's cute" from many around here.

DR/- is pretty darn hard to overcome if you are using something other than energy damage.

Also, I just thought the idea was interesting, I wasn't trying to win a world record or something.

A counterpoint to the 2k damage though, PCs can to ridiculous things, the game is stacked in their favor after all. However, considering what you tend to fight in most campaigns are monsters, 13-19 DR to the entire party is a pretty significant obstacle for them to deal with.

[Psyren]

Well the point of the build is that you do get to double count those rage powers.:smalltongue:

That's the part I'm not buying - you're granting your base DR ability (again, the quote says "this DR to allies") and then the rage powers you grant boost it. You appear to be thinking that you grant your already-boosted DR to them, and then the rage powers you grant boost it a second time. But it is those rage powers that do the boosting in the first place.

[Ssalarn]

DR/- is pretty darn hard to overcome if you are using something other than energy damage.

Also, I just thought the idea was interesting, I wasn't trying to win a world record or something.

A counterpoint to the 2k damage though, PCs can to ridiculous things, the game is stacked in their favor after all. However, considering what you tend to fight in most campaigns are monsters, 13-19 DR to the entire party is a pretty significant obstacle for them to deal with.

Yeah, I've pumped Paladin and Cavalier damage up to around the 2k mark with absolutely airtight math; no quibbling or questionable interactions. DR impacts Bestiary critters more severely than PCs though, so the value of DR really depends on whether your GM is fairly low op and uses stock critters, or builds custom challenges.

Anywho, I'm like 99% sure that the Dragon Totem thing isn't intended to actually increase DR, just the resistance; there's some Dragon Totem NPCs in Reign of Winter whose abilities are mathed out with the DR only increased for the purposes of determining their cold resistance, and Paizo doesn't like PC DR scaling past 10 or so. It' s a very different philosophy than in 3.5. It's probably not overpowered either way.

And as Psyren noted, magic items that increase individual DR wouldn't affect the shared DR.

[Deadkitten]

That's the part I'm not buying - you're granting your base DR ability (again, the quote says "this DR to allies") and then the rage powers you grant boost it. You appear to be thinking that you grant your already-boosted DR to them, and then the rage powers you grant boost it a second time. But it is those rage powers that do the boosting in the first place.

I fully agree that this might not actually work. I posted this on the Paizo boards but the responses were not really helpful.

My argument for it potentially working is like this:
The DR rage powers refer to themselves as being an increase, not a bonus, so they are not a bonus type in any way. They also state that their effects stack.
It is kinda getting around the limit on taking it only 3 times, I emphasize kinda.


Additionally, the skald grants this DR to all allies affected by his inspired rage.

Since the DR rage power says that it is an increase to the DR you already possess, rather than a different source that stacks with your original DR, that it would be treated the same as if the skald had his DR increase from being a higher level.

[Deadkitten]

Anywho, I'm like 99% sure that the Dragon Totem thing isn't intended to actually increase DR, just the resistance; there's some Dragon Totem NPCs in Reign of Winter whose abilities are mathed out with the DR only increased for the purposes of determining their cold resistance, and Paizo doesn't like PC DR scaling past 10 or so. It' s a very different philosophy than in 3.5. It's probably not overpowered either way.

And as Psyren noted, magic items that increase individual DR wouldn't affect the shared DR.

Never actually knew about the wonkyness of dragon totem. I, personally am kinda fine with it boosting DR considering you have to spend 4 -5 rage powers for a 4-6 point increase.

It also isn't really needed for the idea to work. Honestly, if you want Dragon totem DR on this concept you are set for every rage power that the skald gets over his career, I would rather have those rage powers for better options.

When I posted it, it was an attempt to see what the max value I could pump it to was.

I agree that the magic item DR booster would not increase it. The original idea did factor in that the party would be wearing war paint and heroes haubrucks as well though. But that is definitely unrealistic.

[icefractal]

That's the part I'm not buying - you're granting your base DR ability (again, the quote says "this DR to allies") and then the rage powers you grant boost it. You appear to be thinking that you grant your already-boosted DR to them, and then the rage powers you grant boost it a second time. But it is those rage powers that do the boosting in the first place.Depends on how you consider the modifying effects to work. The Skald's DR isn't normal DR + separate transferred DR, they just get "DR" which also affects their allies. Then the rage powers boost "DR". If the rage powers granted separate DR that stacked, they wouldn't transfer, but this reads more like boosting the value of a variable.

For example, if a Marshal grants allies a bonus on attacks equal to their Charisma bonus, then that means their entire Charisma bonus, whether boosted by items, other class features, whatever.


Just read Dragon Totem Resilience. That is some strange wording. It does say that "this DR" increases, and "DR from her barbarian damage reduction class feature" is the only thing that could accurately refer to, because energy resistance isn't DR. So RAW, it boosts DR.
However, the way the phrasing is constructed, it does seem possible that they meant to say that the energy resistance increases and just used the wrong word.
On the third hand, if that's what they meant, then "resistance equals double her current DR/-, plus 2 for every dragon totem rage power" would be a much clearer way of writing it. And they correctly refer to it as "this resistance" a sentence earlier, so perhaps it is intended to boost DR/-.

Now personally I'd rule it as increasing DR, because that would make it worth taking.

[Psyren]

DR impacts Bestiary critters more severely than PCs though, so the value of DR really depends on whether your GM is fairly low op and uses stock critters, or builds custom challenges.

Yep - the Bestiary critters definitely tend more towards "thousand cuts" style damage where DR values in the teens are meaningful even that high up. Take one of the big daddy baddies of core, the Balor - he is dishing out 15-25 damage per hit with his vorpal sword, 4-11 per hit with his whip, or 13-22 with his slams. Now granted, that doesn't account for power attack, but even with that, DR 10/- is going to take a pretty hefty chunk out of that sequence.

A great wyrm red dragon puts up a more brutal fight - 28-56 bite, 20-40 claws, 10-24 wings and 28-48 tail, but even there DR in the teens is saving you quite a bit of damage.

The Tarrasque meanwhile is doing 19-47 bite, 16-27 claws, 16-25 gores, and a 10-31 tail slap. His spines are 17-25, and if he swallows you, you're looking at 28-58 bludgeoning.

So with numbers like that it's not hard to see why the designers though DR 10/- at 20 (the "Invulnerable" Rager's number) was reasonable for a DR-focused character. And that's for one giant bruiser - not for the even more favorable scenario of not-quite-as-big bruiser surrounded by many small minions (few to none of whom would penetrate the DR) or several lieutenant-class baddies (who would penetrate but do lower numbers than the single foes above.)


Depends on how you consider the modifying effects to work. The Skald's DR isn't normal DR + separate transferred DR, they just get "DR" which also affects their allies. Then the rage powers boost "DR". If the rage powers granted separate DR that stacked, they wouldn't transfer, but this reads more like boosting the value of a variable.

Even if you read it that way though, you're then required to read the rage powers as though they increase the already increased value a second time once they "arrive" on the recipient. I'm not saying that's an invalid reading, but I have the feeling it might be usable for something more abusive down the line. Double-counting of any kind is iffy to me.

[atemu1234]

DR/- is pretty darn hard to overcome if you are using something other than energy damage.

Also, I just thought the idea was interesting, I wasn't trying to win a world record or something.

A counterpoint to the 2k damage though, PCs can to ridiculous things, the game is stacked in their favor after all. However, considering what you tend to fight in most campaigns are monsters, 13-19 DR to the entire party is a pretty significant obstacle for them to deal with.

Don't know if Pathfinder has an equivalent, but 3.5 has the Morphing weapon enchantment that technically can overcome DR /-.

[RedMage125]

I'm inclined to agree with Psyren. I don't think all of the OP's suggested things would stack with what the Skald gives the party.

I do thin the increases from the Increased Damage Reduction Rage Power would be given to allies, because that explicitly is an increase to the Skald's existing DR. But DR from magic items would definitely NOT transfer. And I am not familiar with those items, but they might not even stack unless they explicitly say that they stack with existing DR, then they do not.