A really unoptimize but interesting idea: Fallen paladin

[A Tad Insane]

So occasionally I like to invent character even if I'm not going to use them, and one of them is a character who strives to live up to the lofty ideals of a paladin, but always seems to fall short for what ever reason.
Now, I've been looking through books, but it seems you either are a full blow paladin of light and justice, or a black guard, with no middle ground. Is there a Prc out there besides being Evil McSellshissoultodemons that makes being a fallen paladin worth it, or am I better of being a fighter so I don't miss the feats.

[Spore]

I don't fully understand your request. Was the character a full paladin before and fell, never fully recovering and seeking repentance? Why didn't he do that? I can understand having the words "paladin" and "fallen" on your sheet because the backstory of never fullfilling the glory you wanted to represent is pretty cool.

Personally stemming from a PF group I would recommend going for Cavalier of a fitting order. They all imply rich flavor for the "nice guy who isn't quite paladin material". The class is VERY heavily mount focussed and hard T5 (since not having a mount really screws them up). Other than that I would go for a standard fighter and switch out of the class the earliest you can. I snooped around and an Intimidate focussed fighter can easily go into Golden Legionnaire.

A protector of the weak does not have to shine in the dark or get supernatural healing powers. Sometimes it's just enough to be the guy between your friends and the frothing monsters.

[Eloel]

Corrupt Avenger PrC from It's Scary Outside (Heroes of Horror) is worth looking at. It has feature trade-in for fallen paladins, and is explicitly non-evil.

[A Tad Insane]

I don't fully understand your request. Was the character a full paladin before and fell, never fully recovering and seeking repentance? Why didn't he do that? I can understand having the words "paladin" and "fallen" on your sheet because the backstory of never fullfilling the glory you wanted to represent is pretty cool.


From a build perspective it would be a few levels of paladin, but with Prc(s) that have mechanics similar to the blackguard when interacting with fallen paladin levels.
From a fluff perspective it would be like a recovering alcoholic that can't recover. They talk about doing good all the time, and generally seem like an upstanding and good individual, but when they're really tested, really tested, they break. They'll betray an ally to save themselves and their friends. They'll kill a bbeg who's surrendered if they've hurt them to much. Sure, they could atone, and they truly feel bad, but it's a band-aid fix that never. lasts.


Corrupt Avenger PrC from It's Scary Outside (Heroes of Horror) is worth looking at. It has feature trade-in for fallen paladins, and is explicitly non-evil.

This, with just a bit of refluffing, is very good. Thanks

[sakuuya]

Corrupt Avenger PrC from It's Scary Outside (Heroes of Horror) is worth looking at. It has feature trade-in for fallen paladins, and is explicitly non-evil.

I've never heard "It's Scary Outside." That's a good one.

[Blackhawk748]

I've never heard "It's Scary Outside." That's a good one.

I think i have, once. Its probably one of the least used alternate names, and that should change.

[Crake]

There is the grey guard PrC from complete scoundrel, which is something of a "darker" paladin. That said, there's nothing to stop you from just taking some other kind of martial class after you fall as a paladin, instead of taking black guard levels? Perhaps you fell because you lost either your lawful or your good alignment, and became NG, or LN? Not all falls are descents into evil

[Flickerdart]

Grey Guard lets you go less Stick-Up-Butt without falling. There are a ton of PrCs like Pious Templar or Soldier of Light that give you paladin-like abilities without the stupid code.

[Toilet Cobra]

Look into a prestige class called the Grey Guard. One of its class abilities is to give you a little more leeway with the paladin code, which will let you roleplay this fallen stumbling pally concept.

[Rubik]

Perhaps he's always striven to be a paladin but could never quite get it down. He's still an excellent warrior and a powerful combatant, and he tries his best, but his best has just never been good enough. He fell before he truly began, simply because he doesn't have the right personality for it.

The fact that his character sheet says "Crusader" doesn't mean he's not a failed paladin. It just means he never quite hit the ideal of purity and justice that is required of the shiniest of shining knights with the stickiest of sticks shoved up their

...alignments.

[Karl Aegis]

Holy Liberator is similar to Paladins who went the wrong way with their alignment.

[mabriss lethe]

You might find a niche for Ordained Champion (Complete Champion). 5 level PrC that is sort of paladin-ish. The same applies for Witch Slayer from Tome of Magic.

[Ashtagon]

So occasionally I like to invent character even if I'm not going to use them, and one of them is a character who strives to live up to the lofty ideals of a paladin, but always seems to fall short for what ever reason.
Now, I've been looking through books, but it seems you either are a full blow paladin of light and justice, or a black guard, with no middle ground. Is there a Prc out there besides being Evil McSellshissoultodemons that makes being a fallen paladin worth it, or am I better of being a fighter so I don't miss the feats.

How about a grey guard?

Hmm. Monked.

[Spore]

They talk about doing good all the time, and generally seem like an upstanding and good individual, but when they're really tested, really tested, they break.

Now I understand. But just so you know this character is a great target for a story arc but you will need to make sure your fellow PLAYERS understand your character. Also there should be at least a bit understanding in the group. Or else your character might face consequences inside the group. Consequences that make your character unplayable for the particular group if providing a fantastic closure for the story arc.


They'll betray an ally to save themselves and their friends. They'll kill a bbeg who's surrendered if they've hurt them to much. Sure, they could atone, and they truly feel bad, but it's a band-aid fix that never. lasts.

Is saving your allies really a thing paladins wouldn't do?
Is killing a BBEG really that evil to ensure that he can't do anything vile?

Also talk to your DM and your group what really qualifies for a Paladin. You tread the grey area between paladinhood and fighter for good. And it's honestly complicated if you don't have a very strict codex. I would answer both questions like your "darker" paladin and I know my DM wouldn't "un-paladin" myself. Why?

Because he would abandon his faith and loyalties to save family and friends. And he has spared the most evil necromancer on the continent because he felt pity and I got strongly hinted at the he WILL break free from the prison and that he will kill and raise the dead again. I see both points as personal weakness but not as a reason to strip them from paladinhood. It's called being mortal. It's the difference between a Solar and a paladin. The Solar would purge the evil guy and abandon his allies for the greater good.

[ZamielVanWeber]

The Shadowbane "I don't remember the second half of the name (not the inquisitor, the other one)" greatly weakens the paladin's code and allows for some atrocious things. I don't recall if it has a fallen paladin section, but you can act in some less than reputable ways and still avoid losing class features.

[Flickerdart]

The Shadowbane "I don't remember the second half of the name (not the inquisitor, the other one)" greatly weakens the paladin's code and allows for some atrocious things. I don't recall if it has a fallen paladin section, but you can act in some less than reputable ways and still avoid losing class features.
Shadowbane Stalker? They have no statements regarding the Code.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Shadowbane Stalker? They have no statements regarding the Code.

Then it was Inquisitor and I reversed the two. I am gonna go see if I can find the book so I stop confusing people.

Edit: Turns out only the fluff on Shadowbane Inquisitor says anything about a modified code, the class itself just has a slightly less strict code that only applies to it. My apologies for the misdirection.

[Rebel7284]

Isn't it all just roleplaying? Take another martial class and complain that your moral failings have prevented you from being a paladin...

As mentioned before, crusader fits this quite well as you get paladin-ish benefits (Cha to Will save only), but aren't inspired enough to get full on divine grace/turning/casting.
The fact that Crusaders are actually better tanks than the paladin is besides the point. :smallwink:

However, you can do it with any martial class.

[The Viscount]

Then it was Inquisitor and I reversed the two. I am gonna go see if I can find the book so I stop confusing people.

Edit: Turns out only the fluff on Shadowbane Inquisitor says anything about a modified code, the class itself just has a slightly less strict code that only applies to it. My apologies for the misdirection.

I really like Shadobwane Inquisitor for something like this because it's a class where the fall is a more gradual process, or at least a foreshadowed one. The important thing about its code is that you do not lose class features when you fall, and makes for a really smooth entry into Blackguard if that's up you alley (it even has free Improved Sunder and stacks for Blackguard Benefits).

Church of the Silver Flame is also good for this if you want a character who is overzealous about punishing evil.

[Curmudgeon]

Paladin of Freedom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofFreedomClassF eatures) is the CG alternative, with a code that's slightly less onerous than the LG class.

[A Tad Insane]

Thanks for all the replys. I really like the idea of going paladin X/refluffed corrupt avenger 10, unless the group happens to be higher power than that, in which case crusader it will be.