gestalts

[hoborobot]

due to my limited playgroup our dm decided to let us compleatly gestalt. in the current campaign im playing stalker/warprierst (plus warpriest gives me much needed bonus feats) since no one in my group heals and both of my classes rely on wisdom. however when Harbinger comes out, what would you pair him with?

[AvatarVecna]

To better answer your question, it would help to get a more specific build (level, general role), as well as what the rest of the party is already covering, so that you don't step on any toes.

[Vhaidara]

Harbinger combos really well with Warder. Int synergy, and nothing about Harbinger actual precludes the use of heavy armor.

Magus is another potentiall interesting mix, especially if the GM will allow a homebrew feat that allows you to SpellSTRIKE.

Vivisectionist Alchemist has some nice flavor tie ins with the nature of Harbinger, and similarly gives Int synergy.

Wizard is, of course, it's usual completely broken self.

Inspired Blade Swashbuckler gives you full BAB, d10 HD, and easy access to Dex based combat.

[thecrimsondawn]

You almost always want at least one class with a strong end game. 9th level casters always count for that, but tome of battle features also come into there own. Ultimately you break gestalt down to the action economy. Do you want options from both sides and choose one every round, or would you like to stick to a single play style and either empower your strong points, or buff up your week points.
Gestalt is unique in the sense that all those really crappy classes and PrCs that are out and about in 3.5 may suddenly be really strong, and in a pathfinder setting you are looking at 2 capstones - something thats nothing to scoff at.

Options
Defense
Offense

Decide what it is you would like :)

[PsyBomb]

I post this every time I see a Gestalt topic requesting advice. Words to live by (if I do say so myself):

I think I can sum up the building of a Gestalt Character in 10-commandments style:

1) Action Economy Is Still King
-Full Triple-progression casting is cute, but ultimately futile in combat since nearly every Spell, Power, Strike, etc takes a Standard Action to use, and you still only get one of those per round. Try to mix your activation abilities up, between Standard, Move, and Swift actions, so that you can get more out of what you have.

2) Focus On One Theme
-Having schizophrenic capabilities just means you'll be more at a loss in combat, despite the increased options, especially if the two sides interfere with each other in normal use. Barbarian/Wizard, though it may sound awesome, generally either gives up most of the benefits from one side of the progression or else is just confused in battle. If it can't be effectively done on one class, it generally isn't worth doing on two.

3) Strengthen Each Other's Weaknesses
-Since you always take the higher HP, BAB, Save, skill points and both skill lists, try to ensure that your secondary class is good at some things that your main one isn't.

4) Remember Your Stats
-Twice as many "classes" means twice as many opportunities for MAD. Make sure your key abilities from both sides are still lined up onto one or two main stats. This is often doable through Archetypes, so look things over carefully

5) Remember Your Feats
-Feats are the one thing you don't get multiples or increased numbers of normally. This makes prerequisites and feat chains just as hard to squeeze in as normal, more so if you want to Prestige.

6) Dipping Is Easier
-In Gestalt, dipping 1-3 levels on one side for supporting capabilities does not delay or prevent high-level capabilities from your other side. Fighter 2 for feats and proficiencies, Paladin 2-3 for Cha to saves and immunities, Veilweaver or Initiator levels, etc are all simple and powerful options.

7) Beware Wasting Identical Advantages
-This causes pure waste. A PrC attempting to increase your Wizard caster level on one side and a level of Wizard on the other just lost a caster level benefit. Similar things go for other benefits, such as Uncanny Dodge, high HP or skill points, and Class Skills (not as much a concern as the others).

8) Active/Passive Mix is Typically Best
-Let one side have the abilities which require actions. You can put together cool utility, long-term buffing, bonus feats, and static/reactive abilities on the other side

9) The Very Worst Classes Sometimes Aren't Bad Here
-Monk, with its dominant saves, decent skills, and host of static abilities, is a FAR better choice for support-side levels than it is for single-class. The Expert, despite being an NPC class, notably is able to pick ANY TEN SKILLS as class skills with 6+Int per level. Any class that usually has the phrase "if only it had ___" can easily acquire it. Basically, almost anything can be of benefit to SOMEONE under Gestalt system (other than Commoner and Warrior)

10) DM Always Has Final Word
-Just like normal, if you are crafting an epic masterpiece of a character but it will outshine the others of the group, expect any sane DM to veto it, or else be ready to throttle back what you can do for the sake of having, you know, fun.

[thecrimsondawn]

That is a nice post PsyBomb :)

As far as action economy goes
Tome of battle mostly focuses on the use of your swift action or standard action. The buffs, stances, and strikes make for a great bonus to any melee build.

For casters, if you are not spontaneous, then quicken spell gives you 2 spells a round, and belt of battle can net you more actions a round should you need to do even more.

for casters, if you are spontaneous, the savage species book has some nice monster progressions that give rather ridiculous cha bonuses (as do many dragons), as well as many supernatural abilities. If you cant decide on another class, you can always play a very strong monster race on one side.

[Alex12]

As the DM of the group for that particular campaign, I'd also like to note that I tend toward generosity to the PCs.
Aside from being full gestalt (which I personally think works very well to balance a 3-person party for an adventure path intended for 4) I have some general rules that govern all campaigns I run and some others I implemented specifically for this campaign.

In all Pathfinder campaigns I run unless otherwise noted:

Psionics and Path of War are both permitted and encouraged, as is Ponyfinder (I shelled out for the sourcebooks)
I am open to 3.5 stuff if it's run by me. If there's something from 3.5 that you like, from an item or feat or spell to an entire class, I am more than willing to at the very least consider it (and if it needs to be converted and you do the conversion, I am more likely to permit it than if I have to do the work). Eternal Wands, Reserve feats, the Factotum class, and the feat Tomb-Tainted Soul are all pre-approved.
There is no link between morality and positive/negative energy. Classes like clerics that have their energy type based on their morality instead choose at level 1, and this does not change without a major alteration to the character's personality. Mindless undead are Neutral unless controlled, in which case they reflect the morality of their controller. All undead are fully affected by Smite *alignment* effects and aligned water of any sort (though other alignment-based effects treat them as neutral- this is built into the nature of Smite effects and aligned water, not the nature of alignment).
Related to the previous rule, undead-related spells, feats, etc that are [evil] or require a user to be evil may lose this tag. Animating the undead is not necessarily an innately evil act, but it is generally frowned upon in civilized society (though exceptions certainly exist). Not all undead are evil, though many of them (particularly those that consume blood, flesh, souls, etc) are, for obvious reasons. Animating undead does not prevent the original soul from being brought back (liches and other such types of undead that retain their original soul excepted for obvious reasons). That said, demons and devils are still very much evil, as is damaging or destroying souls. This doesn't mean that the living will necessarily like or be okay with a necromancer and his zombie hordes or an undead PC, it just means that paladins won't try to kill you on sight.
Leadership and variants are banned.
I reserve the right to re-stat characters in the campaign, particularly if I'm giving them things that didn't exist when the path was written, such as hybrid classes.
Half-elf dual favored class affects both sides of your gestalt. You can even take the same bonus on both sides, and it does stack.
If your character dies and you roll up a new one, the new one must be meaningfully different from the last one you played.
If you want to refluff something, such as a Trait, talk to me. For example, Rich Parents can easily be refluffed to represent your savings from a successful career doing something that isn't adventuring


For this particular campaign:
Rolled stats. 5d6, drop 2 lowest, assign them however you like. If you have nothing above 13, you may reroll the full array until you do.
Max hp each level.
All PCs are wanted criminals with a death sentence on their heads for a bad crime that they actually did commit.

[Brova]

I've been thinking a lot about Gestalt recently, and there are a couple of things to note.

The first is that the most powerful Gestalt characters are a stack of save or dies on one side and a stack of extra actions on the other. So Wizard || Druid (with Choker wild shape), Beguiler || Factotum, or something with schism for extra actions. Those combos are very powerful, and the power band is actually fairly tight. The difference between throwing out three save or dies round one from Wizard spells and being a Choker versus from Beguiler spells and Inspiration Points is ... not very large. But those aren't combos that are particularly good for the game, so I'm going to assume you don't want to do something quite that powerful.

The second is the rules on prestige classes and gestalt. The rules are pretty clear on this point. You cannot combine two prestige classes at one level. The DM should prohibit dual advancement prestige classes - but they are not required to. Finally, there's a weak recommendation that DMs should tighten PrC requirements so players can't get in before level 5. Since the DM is in this thread, he can correct me, but I'm going to assume that the only restriction is that you can't combine two prestige classes. What's the implication of that? Well, one side of your gestalt isn't going to get a prestige class. So you'll generally want a fairly standard 20 level build on one side, and some class that goes well to 20 on the other.

The third is that you'll want to think more about class ordering and class combos. For example a Cleric 2 || Fighter 1/Rogue 1 has a BAB of +2, but a Cleric 2 || Rogue 1/Fighter 1 only gets a BAB of +1. Beyond minutia like that, you'll want to consider things like skills, saves, and BAB. If you're not picking up full BAB, 6 skills a level, all good saves, and a d8 at least, you should look at your class choice again.

So with that in mind, I'm going to talk about some classes. Specifically, classes for the side that's not taking a prestige class. The only thing to be aware of for the side that is taking a prestige class is that you can do some early/easy entry tricks. For example, a Wizard can dip Cloistered Cleric on the other side to grab Dweomerkeeper easily. Or a Druid can pick up Warshape and Master of Many Forms to make his wild shape even more insane.

Without further ado, classes:

The Amazing

Druid: Druid would be a totally reasonable option is all it gave you was a pet wolf and the ability to live your life as a Dire Bear. Fortunately, Druids also get spellcasting - including coveted reflex based save or die spells. You also get a d8 hit die, good fortitude and will, and some nice class skills (diplomacy FTW). And you get all that with no investment in feats (except Natural Spell). Plus, Druid is good for a caster or noncaster. There's no situation where "Druid" is the wrong class to chose, and gestalt is no exception.

The Good

Most Casters With 9ths: While it hurts to not be able to prestige class out (seriously, there is absolutely no reason to be a sorcerer after 1st level - unless you desperately want your pet rat to get better natural armor), getting 9th level spells is still a solid deal. There's also a lot of variety in armor requirements, letting various builds get spellcasting power (i.e. light armor characters should be Beguilers, heavy armor builds should be Clerics). Dread Necromancers are particularly appealing because they get actual class features and a skeleton horde. If you care about HP, Stalwart Sorcerer is a novel option, though not amazing.

Rogue: Sneak attack is a godsend for any build that can use it, especially because it doesn't require an action to use. Rogues also let you fill the all important "finding traps" role, and give evasion and uncanny dodge for halfway useful defenses. Finally, Rogue bonus feats are pretty good. A bonus feat is a decent option at the worst of times, and it is RAW legal to take feats like Automatic Quicken Spell with your bonus feats. You also get a very solid skill list, including gems like Diplomacy and Abuse Magic Device.

Factotum: While a Factotum is a powerful choice for High Op caster gestalts, you probably want to pair it with a ToB type character in normal play. Getting extra standard actions lets you move and full attack, recover maneuvers the same turn you use them, or pull other tricks. You also get sweet skills and trapfinding, letting you play a gimp Rogue. Pairing this with a caster just makes you burn through resources faster - most encounters are solved by a couple of spells.

The Average (or, unexceptional stuff I personally like)

Most Other Fullcasters, or Caster Analogues: While being a Sorcerer is certainly better than being a Binder or Warlock, a lot of these classes have something to offer. For example, shatter and flight make Warlock a reasonable low level option (especially seeing as many monsters straight lose to fly + EB). Warmage's evocation focus isn't the best option, but fireball is occasionally useful, and you don't have to give up the real ultimate power of being a conjurer to get it. Binder provides a lot of nice passive utility. Finally, Duskblade is a good option in general, and jumps to great if you want to be a gish or have some touch spells.

Ranger: This is probably a pet idea more than a good one, but Mystic Rangers can do a passable Sorcerer impression, combat style can be useful, and the Ranger chassis is actuall very good. Two good saves, full BAB, six skill points from a good-ish list (hey, it's good scouting skills), and d8 hit points. Also, you can do some trapfinding if that's a thing you want. Swift Hunter is also an option, and that ACF that lets you take "favored enemy - wizards" is good. You can also grab wild shape. All things told, a lot better than you'd think looking at the PHB.

Some ToB Build: I'm not sure what this looks like, or if it's good, but it starts out Barbarian 1/Swordsage 1/Warblade 1/Crusader 1/Dungeoncrasher Fighter 6 and plays around with replacing saves with Concentration checks or Idiot Crusader fun. A good option if your other side offers you some passive buffs, or if you want staying power to go with a caster.

The Bad

Monk: People will tell you the Monk is good in Gestalt. This is a lie. Compared to the Ranger, it offers worse BAB, worse skills, worse class features, and good will. I guess if you really need a good will save, you could pick up Monk. Or just be a Wizard on your other side. Compared to the Rogue, it offers the same BAB, worse skills, worse class features, and good fort and will. Have fun not stabbing people in the kidneys for 9d6 every attack. Remember: friends don't let friends play monks.

The Ugly (or, Artificers aren't a good idea)

Artificer: Let me say this first: Artificer is not a weak class. However, Artificer is a broken class. Not in the sense that it is too powerful, but in the sense that it interacts with parts of the game that do not work. First, it turns gold into power. That doesn't work because a Candle of Invocation exists and has a price in gold. Second, it turns XP into power. That doesn't work because experience is a river. Third, it turns weakness now into power later. That doesn't work because you're never actually a balanced character. Finally, it's primary draw is the power of Abuse Magic Device. That doesn't work because of Emulate Class Feature and Candle of Invocation's "prepare spells as a cleric of your level +2" power (aside: whoever thinks of that when people say "candle of invocation abuse").

On a different issue, Artificers are horribly complicated to play, and still aren't much better than a Wizard. Go for it if you want, but I can't honestly recommend it in a normal game.

Finally, a sample party:

Stealth: Rogue 20 || Wizard 3/Binder 1/Anima Mage 10/Incantatrix 6 - At low levels, you hope you'll win initiative so you can hit people with sneak attack, or use your spells for utility. At mid levels, you auto-persist greater invisibility for easy sneak attacks. At high levels you do metamagic shenanigans. You get some cool powers from being a Binder, such as free summons or extra sneak attack. Incidentally, you'd like to take more levels of Anima Mage after 10, but unfortunately you cannot. This means that your character concept only actually lasts til 14th level. Honestly though, that's probably okay - D&D breaks down around that point anyway.
Melee: Factotum 20 || Barbarian 1/Swordsage 1/Warblade 1/Crusader 1/Dungeoncrasher Fighter 6/Master of Nine 5/Something Else 5 - At low levels, you're a melee guy with actual noncombat abilities. That's as much as a sword guy can ask for. At mid levels, you get some extra actions right around the point where "stab things" stops being a reasonable life choice. At high levels, you still kinda suck, but at least you have maneuvers and some Factotum utility.
Divine: Druid 20 || Fighter 2/Totemist 2/Warblade 1/Warshaper 5/Master of Many Forms 10 - At low levels, you heal and have a pet wolf. At mid levels, you are a bear and get some cool melee powers. By high level, you get crazy morphing powers. You may want the druid variant that lets you pick up DMM - Persist. You may also want to be a Changeling, which allows you to take your Warblade level later and (maybe) get both Flashmorph and Multimorph.
Arcane: Dread Necromancer 20 || Druid 4/Sorcerer 1/Arcane Hierophant 10/Mystic Theurge 5 - At low levels, you can actually melee pretty well with Dread Necromancer + Druid. At mid levels, your undead horde turns on and you get some arcane utility for Sorcerer. At high levels, you get full Dread Necromancer casting, 19 levels of Druid casting, and 16 levels of Sorcerer casting. Remember to take your Sorcerer level at 2nd or 4th so you have +4 BAB at 6th level. Also, you're using your second level Dread Necromancer spells to get into Arcane Hierophant.

[Chronos]

I'd add one more point to PsyBomb's excellent list:

11: Try to do the same thing in different ways. For instance, barbarian, warblade, and war hulk all give the same total increase to attack bonus per level... but barbarian and warblade do it via BAB, while war hulk does it via strength increases. So if you gestalt barbarian and warblade together, they won't stack, but if you gestalt either of them with war hulk, they will.

Other examples of this principle include the Arcane Duelist prestige class with something full BAB, and Incarnate or other class with skill boosts but few skill points, together with something like rogue with a lot of skill points.

[ZamielVanWeber]

And one more thing to add to Psybomb's:
This is a great time to experiment with monster classes/unusual races. The LA and racial hit dice and balanced by the actual class features on the other, so you can have access to fun toys while still enjoying class benefits.

[BilltheCynic]

How about Archivist//Factotum? Good Int synergy, lots of passive buffs for being a Factotum, healing spells for being an archivist, full casting, and you can potentially learn every single spell in the game (if your DM is nice to you).