Elder Evils, where would they fit into things?

[Xuldarinar]

Simply, under pathfinder is there anything that fills the same niche as the Elder Evils in 3.5?
If not, would any or all of the Elder Evils fit just as easily within pathfinder's setting and mechanics?

[thecrimsondawn]

pathfinder is nearly a clone of 3.5 with some major fixes to some of the many reasons why there is simply so much OP crap laying around in 3.5. The Elder evils already are lv 20 encounters with rules to make them stronger, so since they are not epic, you already have something to go with.

I never tried to convert 3.5 to pathfinder's cmb and cmd, but outside of that, the only real things I think they would get is a few more feats, and maybe some traits

[Grod_The_Giant]

If not, would any or all of the Elder Evils fit just as easily within pathfinder's setting and mechanics?
Yes. The answer for "can [3.5 thing] be adapted to Pathfinder" is always yes. Usually with approximately zero effort. Pathfinder is basically nothing but someone's 3.5 houserules that got published.

[atemu1234]

Yes. The answer for "can [3.5 thing] be adapted to Pathfinder" is always yes. Usually with approximately zero effort. Pathfinder is basically nothing but someone's 3.5 houserules that got published.

Though I personally still have trouble grasping CMB and CMD.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Though I personally still have trouble grasping CMB and CMD.
CMB is your strength plus skill*, and is what you roll when grappling, tripping, and other special maneuvers. You know the spot on a 3.5 sheet where it asks for your Grapple modifier? It's basically that, but working for more than just grapples.
CMD is your strength and agility plus skill*, and represents how good you are at resisting grapples, trip attempts, and so on. It's sort of special-attack AC.


*And there's the problem with maneuvers in a nutshell.

[Elricaltovilla]

Though I personally still have trouble grasping CMB and CMD.

CMB: d20+BAB+Str+misc bonuses.
CMD: 10+BAB+Str+Dex+misc bonuses.

CMB/CMD scales positively with size, and some features give you extra bonuses against certain combat maneuvers (like +1 for every pair of legs beyond the first vs. tripping).

The scaling on it is wonky and terrible.

[BWR]

Simply, under pathfinder is there anything that fills the same niche as the Elder Evils in 3.5?
If not, would any or all of the Elder Evils fit just as easily within pathfinder's setting and mechanics?

Golarion:
Thematically? Sure, they already have Cthulhu & co. (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary4/greatOldOne.html) in the game, and what are Elder Evils but Lovecraftian cosmic horrors?
Place for the Elder Evils? If you think that throwing another EE in there isn't a problem, fine. If you don't want a single world to have to handle even more EEs than they already have, no, or you will have to replace some of the existing ones.
Mechanically: are we talking about fighting them? just use what's provided and convert where necessary. It should be pretty straight-forward.

[Psyren]

CMB is your strength plus skill*, and is what you roll when grappling, tripping, and other special maneuvers. You know the spot on a 3.5 sheet where it asks for your Grapple modifier? It's basically that, but working for more than just grapples.
CMD is your strength and agility plus skill*, and represents how good you are at resisting grapples, trip attempts, and so on. It's sort of special-attack AC.


*And there's the problem with maneuvers in a nutshell.

One major difference - CMB is an attack roll, whereas several maneuvers in 3.5 (e.g. grapple and bull rush) are not. Which means there are many more ways to buff CMB or debuff CMD, like flanking your foe, or entangling them, or bless/heroism etc. And if the maneuver in question is performed with your weapon, you get even more.

Another big difference is the de-emphasis on size. No more "you must be this tall to grapple," or Colossal size being a big fat nope to most PCs. If you want your herculean brawler to suplex the Tarrasque, go for it.



The scaling on it is wonky and terrible.

It's really not if you use WBL, class features and simple math. And even Fighter gets class features now.


On topic: Location-wise, cosmic horrors tend to be found in the Dark Tapestry, the space between stars, which is Golarion's Far Realm analogue. So it's not quite on the "edge" as it were, as it is "in between." Which makes it a bit more unsettling imo, they don't have all that far to go.

[Elderand]

On topic: Location-wise, cosmic horrors tend to be found in the Dark Tapestry, the space between stars, which is Golarion's Far Realm analogue. So it's not quite on the "edge" as it were, as it is "in between." Which makes it a bit more unsettling imo, they don't have all that far to go.

The end of the world is just one tentacle length away -insert mad laugh here-

[Xuldarinar]

I note that some of the EE would need adjustment in text. Far-realm to dark tapestry for Father Llymic or say he is a creature from beyond the sphere and keep the origin of how he got to the world, Sertrous would be (or once would have been) a Qlippoth Lord, Im certain Zoretha would be a world somewhere in the tapestry, and I can see someone connecting Ragnorra (the Elder Evil known as the mother of monsters) to Lamashtu (the demon lord turned deity known as the mother of monsters).

[Doctor Awkward]

pathfinder is nearly a clone of 3.5 with some major fixes to some of the many reasons why there is simply so much OP crap laying around in 3.5.

This is, frankly, patently untrue. Pathfinder makes a ton of minor rules modifications that frequently add up to be more confusing than helpful or balanced. The differences in the calculation of monster defenses and hit points make 3.5 monsters unusable as-is.
On average, Pathfinder is probably less compatible with 3.5 material than 3e or d20 Modern sourcebooks are.
In addition, the biggest problems that existed in 3.5 generally boil down to "wizards are broken" and "mundanes are underpowered." Not only do this problem still exist in Pathfinder, in many ways it's actually worse.


One major difference - CMB is an attack roll, whereas several maneuvers in 3.5 (e.g. grapple and bull rush) are not. Which means there are many more ways to buff CMB or debuff CMD, like flanking your foe, or entangling them, or bless/heroism etc. And if the maneuver in question is performed with your weapon, you get even more.

Except that you also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane and/or sacred bonuses to AC to the CMD, so you really aren't gaining much of anything, since for every offensive buff you can give yourself, an opponent can come up with a defensive one to even it out. And that's not counting any debuffs it might be able to use on you like Ray of Enfeeblement, or a miss chance it might have (since, y'know, maneuvers are attack rolls).

To illustrate... Atropus (a CR23) is a Gargantuan undead, BAB of +33, with Strength 58, and Dexterity of 13.
So his base CMD would be 72. However, he also has Dodge and Mobility, so if he selects you as his dodge target, his CMD is 73 against you. And if you attempt a maneuver during an AoO generated by movement, it goes up to 77.

A 20th level Lore Warden with 18 starting Strength can have a +6 item at 20, +5 inherent, +5 from levels for a total of 34. With a 20 BAB, he also gets +4 from Weapon Training, +8 from Maneuver Mastery +2 from Know Thy Enemy, +5 Weapon, +1 Weapon Focus for a total of 52. If you want to focus on a specific maneuver, there's also additionals like Imroved/Greater <Maneuver nname> for another +4, and an appropriate Ioun stone/Gauntlet of the Skilled Maneuver for another +4.
That brings him up to 60. So he'll only succeed on that one maneuver on a 12 or higher normally, and needs a 16 or higher during an AoO. For any other maneuver he'll need an 16, provided he has the appropriate feats. Without them he'll only succeed on a natural 20.
I suppose there is also a custom magic item of True Strike, so that every other round you are guaranteed to hit your maneuver (except on a 1).

Forgive me if I missed any other relevant bonuses, I was just shooting from the hip there. The main point here is that you are dedicating a huge portion of your effort and resources in order to succeed, at best, 40% of the time.

[Psyren]

Except that you also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane and/or sacred bonuses to AC to the CMD, so you really aren't gaining much of anything, since for every offensive buff you can give yourself, an opponent can come up with a defensive one to even it out.

The majority of monsters cannot come up with even one of those, let alone all of them. Spellcasting NPCs with class levels can, but they have a lower base to begin with, and NPC wealth on top of that. This objection like so many others is overblown and does not pan out in practice.

[Doctor Awkward]

The majority of monsters cannot come up with even one of those, let alone all of them. Spellcasting NPCs with class levels can, but they have a lower base to begin with, and NPC wealth on top of that. This objection like so many others is overblown and does not pan out in practice.

Because in practice players are allowed to cast spells that buff their fellows, and groups of enemies are not?

And that's hardly the issue, besides. CMB/CMD favors monsters with high hit dice far more than it favors creatures with fighter class levels. Any time you are dealing with a creature where the HD/CR ratio is anything other than 1:1, the system becomes demonstrably wonky.

[Psyren]

Because in practice players are allowed to cast spells that buff their fellows, and groups of enemies are not?

And what "buffs" would a manticore have, or an elder elemental, or a Tarrasque?



And that's hardly the issue, besides. CMB/CMD favors monsters with high hit dice far more than it favors creatures with fighter class levels. Any time you are dealing with a creature where the HD/CR ratio is anything other than 1:1, the system becomes demonstrably wonky.

With few exceptions, this is the case when the player in question is demonstrably bad at building characters, or their GM is demonstrably bad at following WBL and CR guidelines.

[Grod_The_Giant]

This is, frankly, patently untrue. Pathfinder makes a ton of minor rules modifications that frequently add up to be more confusing than helpful or balanced. The differences in the calculation of monster defenses and hit points make 3.5 monsters unusable as-is.
Explain? Having played both, I'm 100% positive I could run a PF campaign using a 3.5 monster manual with zero changes and have zero mechanical issues. (Apart from scribbling down a CMB/CMD for things, a process taking approximately two seconds)

[atemu1234]

Explain? Having played both, I'm 100% positive I could run a PF campaign using a 3.5 monster manual with zero changes and have zero mechanical issues. (Apart from scribbling down a CMB/CMD for things, a process taking approximately two seconds)

Racial Hit Dice, as well as saves and Base Attack Bonus based off of it were changed in many cases, as well as altering skills. Now, it's not difficult to convert, but conversion is necessary.

[squiggit]

Another big difference is the de-emphasis on size.
Mostly for grapple only though. Bull Rush, Drag, Overrun, Reposition and Trip still have restrictions.

[Doctor Awkward]

With few exceptions-

Ah, then we are in agreement that the system contains flaws and inconsistencies.

I'm glad.

[Psyren]

Ah, then we are in agreement that the system contains flaws and inconsistencies.

I'm glad.

Do you know a system that doesn't? Honest question.

But yeah, the larger factor by far is lack of skill.

[Raven777]

Golarion is already full of omnicidal doom critters. As mentioned, we already have Cthulhu (http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Cthulhu)(the fluff outright says he's on Earth, which has... interesting implications). We also have the Snarl Rovagug (http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Rovagug), fluff about the world being it's prison included. We have the Moon from Majora's Mask Groetus (http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Groetus). Then there's whatever lives in Leng. But we don't talk about Leng. Have we mentioned we got Pin-Head Zon-Kuthon (http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Zon-Kuthon) and his Cenobites Kytons (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/kyton) who're out to cover the world in eternal pain?

So I guess the Elder Evils would fit right at home, no worry.