Thinking of trying to make a 3.5 house rule on something that has been bugging me

[thecrimsondawn]

Picture this, you are a tiny Fey. You have great internal power and can cause all kinds of magic to bend to your will. Lets say you cast fireball. A ball of red hot energy appears before you, dwarfing you in size, and causes a massive explosion doing great damage.

Not picture this

You are a colossal great wyrm dragon dragon. Humans are tiny little specs to your massive size.
You too cast a fireball, and a tiny speck of fire despite your massive appearance flys forth and does next to no damage vs what you can normally do - so much so that this should be little more then a cantrip to a dragon of such power.

I need to find a way to fix this. Creature size should be proportionate to the size of the power you are able to call forth, and smaller creatures should not be able to call forth something that is akin to an explosion able to make a create in the middle of a city.

Has anyone ever thought about this before? Every come up with any house rule for it, or decide to not house rule this for any reason?

[GilesTheCleric]

Do you remember that tiny little gun from Men in Black? Sometimes it's cool to have something so innocuous be very dangerous. There are people who are unaccountably afraid of spiders or other insects/small things -- these small things have a very powerful mind-influencing ability.

However, in terms of actually applying that rule, try looking at the monster advancement stuff in the back of the MM1, and unarmed/weapon size/dice scaling. Perhaps scaling spells like weapons could work; alternatively, you could see how many HD it takes to size up a creature, and then multiply its damage dice by a constant*delta HD.

[DrMartin]

The consequences could be hilarious. Higher level character would want / need to increase their sizes in order to achieve more power / be able to fight more powerful opponents. The architecture of cities would change to reflect this. A tavern or a big banquet would be like a big family dinner with the kids' and the adults' table, but many layered, medium-sire to colossal++. Legends would not tell the actions of heroes of old, just list their heights :D

[thecrimsondawn]

Do you remember that tiny little gun from Men in Black? Sometimes it's cool to have something so innocuous be very dangerous. There are people who are unaccountably afraid of spiders or other insects/small things -- these small things have a very powerful mind-influencing ability.

However, in terms of actually applying that rule, try looking at the monster advancement stuff in the back of the MM1, and unarmed/weapon size/dice scaling. Perhaps scaling spells like weapons could work; alternatively, you could see how many HD it takes to size up a creature, and then multiply its damage dice by a constant*delta HD.

That is not a bad idea. Thoughts that are running through my head where something along those lines, but in terms of size, not power. The power of the spell is always related to the primary casting mod and the level of the spell, but frankly if I was a colossal sized creature in a magic school just for an example - and I was being taught spells, tiny specks of light and energy just would never count as a passing grade.

At first I was thinking, a free enlarge spell for every size category up you go, and a size penalty for every size down, but what I ended up with was a spell with an abnormally massive size, or a spell that simply was not large enough to fit the bill.

Ex1 fireball with a 20ft explosion. a 200% increase for the largest not + size is only a 60ft blast, so additively speaking it does not work. Multiplicity speaking you would end up with about 100ft blast, something that is nothing to scoff at, but on any spell with a larger range, that is simply madness

Ex2 Control Weather. 2 miles radius is the base, so additively its 4 miles (a little better, but you really wont notice too much change with this spell. Multiplying we get 32 miles....

I dont know about you, but 32 miles would cover quite a few cities

[thecrimsondawn]

The consequences could be hilarious. Higher level character would want / need to increase their sizes in order to achieve more power / be able to fight more powerful opponents. The architecture of cities would change to reflect this. A tavern or a big banquet would be like a big family dinner with the kids' and the adults' table, but many layered, medium-sire to colossal++. Legends would not tell the actions of heroes of old, just list their heights :D

Hey, thats how all the world of warcraft bosses did it ;-)

[eggynack]

Why would size be proportional with magical potency? That just doesn't fit in with any sort of flavor I mentally attach to magic. Magic is about mental fortitude, or force of will, or spirit, or oneness with nature, or connection to a deity, or so many other things. None of those things, however, is size. Magic doesn't care how big you are, and if a fey can out-fireball a dragon, then it's because the fey has a greater connection to the magical. Fey are, in fact, primarily defined by that connection. This rule just doesn't make sense to me.

[Evolved Shrimp]

Why would size be proportional with magical potency? That just doesn't fit in with any sort of flavor I mentally attach to magic.

This.

Physical power is tied to size and modeled that way in D&D – the larger you are, the more powerful you are and the more wallop your punches pack.

Magic is orthogonal to that. Magic does not harness physical power, it is mental or spiritual in nature. Often, it may not even use power internal to the individuum but something external to it, be it from the world at large (“the Weave”) or a particular deity. Why would this scale with the physical size of the caster?

This is similar to how using external power in the real world works: The loudness of an electric guitar does not depend on the physical power of the player, a movie that is projected does not become larger because the projectionist is very tall, and a machine in a factory does not output smaller dinguses when it is operated by a midget.

Combine that with the consequences outlined by DrMartin – players will go for increased size if that’s a major way to increase their magic power – and I don’t think that a house rule of this kind will add to the game.

[thecrimsondawn]

d&d is set up to where everything has a semi fixed size or range, only related to level if that. The power, or potency of the spell is not in question here, but rather just the size, and size can very well be a double edged sword

[eggynack]

d&d is set up to where everything has a semi fixed size or range, only related to level if that. The power, or potency of the spell is not in question here, but rather just the size, and size can very well be a double edged sword
To your first point, casters rarely have even a semi-fixed size, given the nature of form changing or enlargement magic. Wizards are running enlarge person and the polymorph line, clerics have righteous might, and druids can be just about any size they want with wild shape. To the second, I don't really see why any element of magic would have any relationship to the size of the creature, whether that element be power or even just size. Magic doesn't care about the creature's size, and it doesn't care to any extent, in any direction. If we were talking about anything related to the physical, like breath weapons, then that would be one thing, but the fact of the matter is that massive creatures can be utter novices at magic, with fireballs on the scale of cantrips, while tiny creatures can be magical masters, able to level cities, and that's as it should be. Massive creatures tend to be able to level cities with the fact that they're massive anyway.

[lsfreak]

You could adopt something like the method the wound/vitality system uses. Larger and smaller creatures get bonuses or maluses to their wounds (not their vitality) based on size, so a smaller creature is proportionally affected more than a larger creature without having to adjust the damage sources at all. Example with the SRD rules: 12d8 Diminutive creature with 16 Con has 90 vitality and 4 wounds, while a 12d8 Gargantuan creature with 16 Con has 90 vitality and 64 wounds. A hit for 40 damage deals proportionally much more damage to the Diminutive one than the Gargantuan. If you don't want everything that comes with wounds/vitality, you could instead base total negative HP on size, though it would need some other changes as well (a fairy that dies as -4 and a dragon that dies at -64 are still largely the same if they both drop unconscious and dying anything -1 or lower). But you'll also need to take into consideration what happens when someone gets Enlarged; I think the wound system normally only applies the size modifiers to monsters, but isn't clear what happens if that size changes.

[Coidzor]

Or you could just give certain creatures a virtual CL boost for their blasting spells as desired.

[thecrimsondawn]

Well again, I dont feel that spells should get stronger from being larger, just that the spells cast should be relative to the size of the creature casting them. Larger creatures that are powerful spellcasters already get more then enough bonuses to do that. I just feel its kinda retarded when describing a scene of something akin to shadow of the colossus casting a spell with a size scaled to that of what a human would use.

Everyones points are very valid, and I thank everyone for sharing them, dont get me wrong, but I am just trying to make the visual seem more accurate with a system rather then just a DM quick change

[eggynack]

Well again, I dont feel that spells should get stronger from being larger, just that the spells cast should be relative to the size of the creature casting them. Larger creatures that are powerful spellcasters already get more then enough bonuses to do that. I just feel its kinda retarded when describing a scene of something akin to shadow of the colossus casting a spell with a size scaled to that of what a human would use.

Everyones points are very valid, and I thank everyone for sharing them, dont get me wrong, but I am just trying to make the visual seem more accurate with a system rather then just a DM quick change
But my whole point is that magic shouldn't have its size be proportional to the creature using it. Magic transcends size in every sense. I already told you some sources of where I think magic comes from, and they're relatively backed up by the game, but the core question here is where you think it comes from. If magic comes from will, or things akin to it, then it seems logical that a weak willed dragon would have tiny magic. If it comes from something else, I dunno, maybe it is impacted by size. I find it difficult to justify a construction like that, however.

[Troacctid]

Also, the visual effects of a spell aren't necessarily the same for different creatures. Your tiny fairy might toss an equally tiny glowing orb that bursts into a 40-foot fireball, while the dragon might toss a giant 40-foot fireball that doesn't even need to expand when it blows up. In either case, the spell would have the same explosion radius on impact.

[Karl Aegis]

Are peas really around eight feet in diameter in Louisiana? Normal peas are smaller than toads.

[Sam K]

You are a colossal great wyrm dragon dragon. Humans are tiny little specs to your massive size.
You too cast a fireball, and a tiny speck of fire despite your massive appearance flys forth and does next to no damage vs what you can normally do - so much so that this should be little more then a cantrip to a dragon of such power.

If you're a great wyrm dragon and you still casting fireballs, you have more urgent problems to worry about than how appropriate the blast radius of your spells seem.

[KillianHawkeye]

This rule just doesn't make sense to me.

I agree with this 100%. If you want big creatures to have stronger or bigger magical effects, give them better spells or the Widen Spell metamagic feat. Your idea is complicated and unnecessary.

[ace rooster]

This.

Physical power is tied to size and modeled that way in D&D – the larger you are, the more powerful you are and the more wallop your punches pack.



And how accurate you are, and how good you are at dodgeing. :smallconfused: Elephants are as accurate as level 8 fighter, and can dodge better than hawks. Really?

This is partially related, in that I think the only solution to both these issues is to decouple some of the numbers, granting finer control over things.


Anyway, the only way I can see to do what the OP is intending is for casting (and casters) to have a second number attatched to it, related to the size of the spell. This can be unrelated to caster level, so that low CL monsters can still cast big spells, and not have them OP or giving them access to higher level spells. PCs could be largely unaffected, if all casting classes default to the expected values. Dragons could easily then cast bigger spells as they get older, without doing something so crude as to grant larger spells to all larger casters.

This could have the side benefit of being able to 'fix' the warmage. Granting them larger versions of the spells would distingish them from other casters, without giving them more dakka.

[Crake]

If you're a great wyrm dragon and you still casting fireballs, you have more urgent problems to worry about than how appropriate the blast radius of your spells seem.

I think this kinda sums it up. Fireball is a 3rd level spell, for a great wyrm, or really ANY 19th level caster, fireball may as well be a cantrip. This creature should be casting apocalypse from the sky or something. Magic does scale, it scales in the form of higher level spells, which is why that tiny pixie is casting fireball, while the great wyrm is casting 9th level or epic magic.

[Angelmaker]

Considers the size of a nuke versus the size of a conventional warhead and then considers each's respective destructive power.

Consider the size of a killer virus versus the size of a living person.

Size has nothing to do with power. And if we then also consider that it's a higly magical world, where things like physics sit down and shut up, I think that your preconception on those issues is simply wrong.

[TheTrickster]

Picture this, you are a tiny Fey. You have great internal power and can cause all kinds of magic to bend to your will. Lets say you cast fireball. A ball of red hot energy appears before you, dwarfing you in size, and causes a massive explosion doing great damage.

Not picture this

You are a colossal great wyrm dragon dragon. Humans are tiny little specs to your massive size.
You too cast a fireball, and a tiny speck of fire despite your massive appearance flys forth and does next to no damage vs what you can normally do - so much so that this should be little more then a cantrip to a dragon of such power.

I need to find a way to fix this. Creature size should be proportionate to the size of the power you are able to call forth, and smaller creatures should not be able to call forth something that is akin to an explosion able to make a create in the middle of a city.

Has anyone ever thought about this before? Every come up with any house rule for it, or decide to not house rule this for any reason?

I got this instant flashback to the original Power Rangers, when Rita Repulsa would use her magic wand to make her monsters GROOOWW. Then they would get really strong and stuff.

Although she would do this everytime, even if her monster was winning while smaller...and then after she made it grow, the Power Rangers would go all Powerzords on it and nuke it's butt off. Why make it even grow if you were already winning?

I'm sorry, what were we talking about? Right, size and magic.

Uhmmm I disagree with the premise a bit. Magic in 3.5 (if I remember correctly) is a force that is independant of an individual (sort of like gravity). It is up to the creature to control this energy, and I personally think that size doesn't matter (no pun intended).

I don't like the idea of my gnome wizard having smaller fireballs just because he is smaller in stature. If he can control the magic better than others, then he gets to blow people up better.

My 2 cp.

[johnbragg]

Picture this, you are a tiny Fey. You have great internal power and can cause all kinds of magic to bend to your will. Lets say you cast fireball. A ball of red hot energy appears before you, dwarfing you in size, and causes a massive explosion doing great damage.

Not picture this

You are a colossal great wyrm dragon dragon. Humans are tiny little specs to your massive size.
You too cast a fireball,

There's your mistake right there. A Great Wyrm White Dragon does 12d6 cold damage with its breath weapon. Let's say that we have a clever White (didn't live to be 1200+ by being dumber than the average bear), who knows that dragon-hunting adventurers are going to have magical preparations against the cold and so he has fireball prepped. The area-of-effect is less, but the targets (probably) aren't buffed for fire resistance. So it's a valid tactical choice--although the save DC is 17 (10 + SL 3 + 4 CHA) for the fireball vs 36 for the breath weapon

But outside of strange corner cases like that (weakest Great Wyrm dragon prepares to counter the buffs the PCs will prepare against a standard dragon of the type), why is a creature with enormous blasting capabiltiy (breath weapon) using limited spell resources for blasting? Clever dragons is much better off de-buffing opponents with a dispel magic or conjuring up a sleet storm for BFC, or use the slot for gaseous form (didn't live 1200+ years by fighting to the death, either.)

That's if you limit to the SRD 3rd level spells, and limit the dragon to the Sorcerer/Wizard spell lists, and don't use glibness to bluff party members into taking as much treasure as they can carry in their arms, then taking them unawares as they leave the cavern.

Fireball is a spell designed by puny huu-mans (or elves, or human gods or whatever) to fight other puny huu-mans. A dragon should not deign to bother with it.

If you really want blasting, area-of-effect spells that scale with caster size, I'd say that for the same spell level, increasing the area of effect should reduce the damage dice. Double the fireball radius, cut the damage by 1/4.

[johnbragg]

Picture this, you are a tiny Fey. You have great internal power and can cause all kinds of magic to bend to your will. Lets say you cast fireball. A ball of red hot energy appears before you, dwarfing you in size, and causes a massive explosion doing great damage.

Not picture this

You are a colossal great wyrm dragon dragon. Humans are tiny little specs to your massive size.
You too cast a fireball, and a tiny speck of fire despite your massive appearance flys forth and does next to no damage vs what you can normally do - so much so that this should be little more then a cantrip to a dragon of such power.

I need to find a way to fix this. Creature size should be proportionate to the size of the power you are able to call forth, and smaller creatures should not be able to call forth something that is akin to an explosion able to make a create in the middle of a city.

Has anyone ever thought about this before? Every come up with any house rule for it, or decide to not house rule this for any reason?

I think, as a group, we were a bit unfair in jumping on your specific example of the dragon-casting-fireball.

The real answer to what you're saying is that, if an enormous creatures' magical might matches their mass, they're using higher level spells. Not fireball, but a maximized, empowered, diluted* fireball, doing 3 damage to everyone and everything in a 100' radius. (A trivial effect to the PCs, but it will kill a lot of background commoners and it's a cool visual.)


* Introducing the just-homebrewed dilute spell metamagic feat, which for a SL increase of 0 lets you increase the radius of an AOE spell at the cost of reducing the damage by the square of the radius.

[Darth Ultron]

I've always gone with the idea that the magic in the game is set for small/medium/large size creatures. Other creatures of other sized get the magic altered to be bigger or smaller.

For example, the annoying pixie uber spellcaster gets the size of their spells reduced to a tiny area. So no pixie or other fey shenanigans. Then bigger giants and dragons can effect more area.

It simply makes sense. A lot of spells have an effect like ''a 30 foot cone''. And that is plenty big to a 6' foot tall human, they can target a whole group of humans. But a 30' cone is quite small if your a 20 foot tall giant. That would be like a human with a 10 foot wide cone.....

And it's simple to add the rule ''natural creatures only....no polymorph or such effects it''

[Flickerdart]

It simply makes sense.
No it doesn't. The giant and the pixie are casting the same spell, therefore the effect is the same. Giants who primarily battle other giants might research their own spells with larger areas of effect (remember how spell research is a thing?) but there's no reason they should get free power-ups just for being tall.

On the other hand, the fey are creatures of powerful magic. So powerful that they actually grant pacts to warlocks. Why in the world would they get weaker spells than big dumb brute giants?

[thecrimsondawn]

Are peas really around eight feet in diameter in Louisiana? Normal peas are smaller than toads.

Depends on what bars you go to drink at


I think, as a group, we were a bit unfair in jumping on your specific example of the dragon-casting-fireball.

The real answer to what you're saying is that, if an enormous creatures' magical might matches their mass, they're using higher level spells. Not fireball, but a maximized, empowered, diluted* fireball, doing 3 damage to everyone and everything in a 100' radius. (A trivial effect to the PCs, but it will kill a lot of background commoners and it's a cool visual.)


* Introducing the just-homebrewed dilute spell metamagic feat, which for a SL increase of 0 lets you increase the radius of an AOE spell at the cost of reducing the damage by the square of the radius.


This is not a bad idea. This is the sorta thing I am looking for. I just used fireball as an example as it was the very first area spell that came to mind, of course dragons would use options outside of that provided they had the class levels to back them up.



Fireball is a spell designed by puny huu-mans (or elves, or human gods or whatever) to fight other puny huu-mans. A dragon should not deign to bother with it.

Lets say that this fact is true. By that accord, then all spells have an effect related to how they are written in your spellbook or what not. Whats to stop a dragon from having a dragon sized fireball prepared or able to spontaneously cast then?

For another example, we could use wings of flurry. A Colossal sized dragon is over 60 feet in size, and the spell has a range of 30 feet. You are left with trying to figure out how it would work in a fight if people where attacking the dragon by climbing on its back, ect.
Would it be 30 ft from outside his squares? Would it start in his own squares and knock some adventurers off but not others because he is too large for the spell?
Or would it count his size into it, and effectively add his body size into the size calculation of the spell - thus making it really about 90 feet?


I got this instant flashback to the original Power Rangers, when Rita Repulsa would use her magic wand to make her monsters GROOOWW. Then they would get really strong and stuff.

Clearly she was not casting off of INT


Size has nothing to do with power. And if we then also consider that it's a higly magical world, where things like physics sit down and shut up, I think that your preconception on those issues is simply wrong.

Right, I am 100% for this, but d&d spells are made for normal sized beings. There are conflicts and issues with the largest of creatures. I am really just trying to make the spells with size issues make sense for massive creatures. See above for the wings of flurry example.


Everyone is making strong points, and I am contemplating them all. Dont think that a single comment made is not being considered. I dont want to cause a major imbalance in the game, and that is why I am bringing it up here for debate. Players here would know how to break things better then nearly any other site I know, so the best chance to have something reasonable would be to ask here :)

[eggynack]

Incidentally, I support Coidzor's suggestion. Skip trying to make a weird rule that alters the dynamics of magic such that they are connected to something as silly as size. Instead, if you want a big guy that casts big magic that ruins cities, just give that character big magic. The massive dragon whose fireballs level cities is a cool idea, and you don't need to mess around with the game to reach it. Some big dragons maybe should have big fireballs, but that doesn't necessarily dictate that all or even most should. Magic is magic, and there are ways to manipulate its area, even if you end up resorting to a houserule to accomplish the exact scale you want.

[pwykersotz]

No it doesn't. The giant and the pixie are casting the same spell, therefore the effect is the same. Giants who primarily battle other giants might research their own spells with larger areas of effect (remember how spell research is a thing?) but there's no reason they should get free power-ups just for being tall.

On the other hand, the fey are creatures of powerful magic. So powerful that they actually grant pacts to warlocks. Why in the world would they get weaker spells than big dumb brute giants?

It makes a lot of sense, it just doesn't work well with all of the 3.5 mechanics. The partial scaling that they have based on size drives me up the wall. I gave up on spell scaling a couple years ago when I had a similar idea, but I much prefer casters having effects with their magic that are relative to who they are. I suppose it goes back to how you perceive magic, not just from a mechanical perspective, but from a flavor perspective.

[LoyalPaladin]

If you're a great wyrm dragon and you still casting fireballs, you have more urgent problems to worry about than how appropriate the blast radius of your spells seem.
This. Great Wyrms can do so much more.


Why would size be proportional with magical potency? That just doesn't fit in with any sort of flavor I mentally attach to magic. Magic is about mental fortitude, or force of will, or spirit, or oneness with nature, or connection to a deity, or so many other things. None of those things, however, is size. Magic doesn't care how big you are, and if a fey can out-fireball a dragon, then it's because the fey has a greater connection to the magical. Fey are, in fact, primarily defined by that connection. This rule just doesn't make sense to me.
I am in agreeance with Sir Eggy of the Nack.

[j_spencer93]

actually my players have brought this up before. I never could find a good reason to explain it or a good way to fix it. Except by simply adding metamagic to the fireball and letting the creature use it then...idk. It really is only weird when talking about magical creatures, not size. Dragons are things of magic, great magical beast yet then can only throw a fireball as strong as an average human.

[Flickerdart]

I suppose it goes back to how you perceive magic, not just from a mechanical perspective, but from a flavor perspective.
What flavor perspective for magic suggests that the caster's size matters? I've never seen any evidence that would even suggest it.

actually my players have brought this up before. I never could find a good reason to explain it or a good way to fix it. Except by simply adding metamagic to the fireball and letting the creature use it then...idk. It really is only weird when talking about magical creatures, not size. Dragons are things of magic, great magical beast yet then can only throw a fireball as strong as an average human.
The average human can't use a fireball at all. Only people who are 5th level spellcasters and have 13+ casting stat can cast a fireball...and then the dragon's is still stronger, harder to resist, and flies further because he's a better caster. It's just the same size. Only an exceptional wizard can equal a dragon's magic.

[thecrimsondawn]

Well, weird rule aside, what about this.

A change in enlarge spell that grows in size scaling, but requires a base size, not an enhanced size. This would change your basic human spell into a more creature acceptable spell due to size.

[Deadline]

Well, weird rule aside, what about this.

A change in enlarge spell that grows in size scaling, but requires a base size, not an enhanced size. This would change your basic human spell into a more creature acceptable spell due to size.

The main issue is still that you want to grant freebies to magicians for being big (bro, do you even lift?). Just do as others have said, make a spell that does what you want, and assign it an appropriate level. So a fireball with a bigger area explosion is a higher level spell than a normal fireball.

Big and small casters already have benefits and disadvantages when it comes to some spells. Any spell that specifies an area (like, say, Tiny Hut) is going to be worse for a big caster, and any spell that extends X feet from the caster's space is going to be more beneficial for a big caster (say a spell's area extends 20' from the caster, a larger creature will cover more area with the same spell).

[pwykersotz]

What flavor perspective for magic suggests that the caster's size matters? I've never seen any evidence that would even suggest it.

I could ask the same question of you. I've never seen any evidence that size doesn't matter at all. There are certain stories where size matters less, but it still matters.

To the point, it's a results oriented look. There's no "evidence" because there can't be. It's all in the justification you use. If your magic is powered by your soul, or physical energy, or connection to the Weave, some people will say that more presence equals more connection, and others will say it's the connection itself that's important (or the source). It's also a cinematic tool and a matter of practical use. Sure, you could have a giant need to expend his highest level spell that he spent eons researching (stupid level adjustment and racial HD) to create a wall of stone that doesn't even cover his palm, but why would he have done it? You can say he would have just focused on the spells that did make a difference, but that cuts you off at the knees from a storytelling perspective.

But as I mentioned, implementing this in 3.5 is crazypants difficult because it involves retooling the entire system. The world was made for medium creatures, and the rules enforce this heavily. The few shoutouts to size increasing anything are completely worthless from a simulation perspective. So yeah, I sympathize with the idea, but I third eggynack and the others. Just handwave it in if you need it.

[Flickerdart]

I could ask the same question of you. I've never seen any evidence that size doesn't matter at all.
That's not really how it works. There's a rules set and several setting canons that have creature size not connected to anything spell-wise. Then you come in and say "magic is affected by creature size!" without bothering to cite a shred of evidence.

It's like asking me to prove the absence of purple-throated narbs. They're your narbs; the onus is on you to prove they exist.

[pwykersotz]

That's not really how it works. There's a rules set and several setting canons that have creature size not connected to anything spell-wise. Then you come in and say "magic is affected by creature size!" without bothering to cite a shred of evidence.

It's like asking me to prove the absence of purple-throated narbs. They're your narbs; the onus is on you to prove they exist.

Uhh...no. None of that is relevant. The OP was regarding cinematic feel of size variations and a request for help with ideas (no specification for homebrew, handwave, or by the books) on how to make it fit that preconception. I didn't say what IS, I offered ideas and even specified that the ideas translate poorly to the ruleset. You asked why would something happen. I gave an idea for why.

Edit: I should correct myself, a house-rule was specifically requested. So it's even less in the territory of the existing rules set.

[Fitz10019]

Size category could increase radius in place of CL increasing damage dice, as a 0-cost metamagic feat. Think of it like a substitution like those energy type substitutions.

[Karl Aegis]

If you are going with peas being different sizes for different cultures, then by RAW your fireball is different sizes for different casters. Tiny fey like grigs have large sized peas and their fireball detonates in the caster's face immediately unless they aren't hiding in in a bush. Some humans have more practically sized peas so their fireballs can fit through arrow slits. Dragons probably don't have peas so they have no frame of reference for what is pea-sized. It certainly would make one of the worst spells in the game even less useful, but the rule is there.

[eggynack]

I could ask the same question of you. I've never seen any evidence that size doesn't matter at all. There are certain stories where size matters less, but it still matters.

I have, and it's the fact that the game sets certain things as the basis for magic, and there is nowhere size would fit amongst those elements. I'll use an example. Let's consider clerics, who have as the basis of their power wisdom, as well as devotion to their deity. How would size impact either of those variables? Being huge doesn't increase your devotion to a god, and it doesn't give you a greater understanding of the world. It just makes you huge. Now consider wizards. The main factors of their power are intelligence, and on a deeper level, their understanding of the underpinnings of magic. Where does size fit in there?

Thus, if size were a factor, it would have to be a factor completely separate from anything we know about magic, and at that point, you're just making an argument where literally anything could take the place of size. We would be just as justified in thinking that magical ability can be impacted by cupcake making prowess, or ability to stack dominoes, or poor handwriting. And, at that point, we've gone really far from the OP's common sense justification for this house rule.

[johnbragg]

I have, and it's the fact that the game sets certain things as the basis for magic, and there is nowhere size would fit amongst those elements. I'll use an example. Let's consider clerics, who have as the basis of their power wisdom, as well as devotion to their deity. How would size impact either of those variables? Being huge doesn't increase your devotion to a god, and it doesn't give you a greater understanding of the world. It just makes you huge. Now consider wizards. The main factors of their power are intelligence, and on a deeper level, their understanding of the underpinnings of magic. Where does size fit in there?

Thus, if size were a factor, it would have to be a factor completely separate from anything we know about magic, and at that point, you're just making an argument where literally anything could take the place of size. We would be just as justified in thinking that magical ability can be impacted by cupcake making prowess, or ability to stack dominoes, or poor handwriting. And, at that point, we've gone really far from the OP's common sense justification for this house rule.

"Judge me by my size, do you?"

[icefractal]

The other factor for dragons specifically is that they're not actually very powerful spellcasters, compared to their power in general. A Great Wyrm Red Dragon is an amazing mage compared to the populace at large. But it's an unimpressive mage compared to a CR 26 Sorcerer, and a pathetic mage compared to a 40th level Sorcerer (depending on if you compare by CR or HD). Trying to get by on spells alone, not using its impressive physical abilities, is like a Lich going around punching people - it works on much weaker foes, but it's not the way you want to fight against a serious threat.


On whether bigger should be better in general, I think it's a matter of taste. Personally, I'd rather go the other direction and make martial prowess less dependent on size. Like currently, "not being polymorphed into a War Troll" is a significant handicap for most martial characters, and I don't think it should be. Big creatures can and should have a minimum level of competence, so seeing something 50' tall means most people run away. But if the greatest swordsman in the world (who happens to be 5'2", say) goes up against an average titan, it should be the titan who'd be advised to run.

[thecrimsondawn]

But as I mentioned, implementing this in 3.5 is crazypants difficult because it involves retooling the entire system. The world was made for medium creatures, and the rules enforce this heavily. The few shoutouts to size increasing anything are completely worthless from a simulation perspective. So yeah, I sympathize with the idea, but I third eggynack and the others. Just handwave it in if you need it.

Right, this is the issue I am facing. Right now I have to agree with everyone saying that its crazy to try to come up with a working system to fix it because as you said, it seems I would need to retool just far too much data in the 3,5 system.

How magic works in a game is very important. In my mind, magic is a formula of words, sigils, runes, formula, or other methods of interacting with the energy that is abundant in the world known as magic. Since it is a formula, as it was stated earlier, a spell that humans made would only be the size that humans made it, unless you altered the rule a bit with metamagic. Adding entire races worth of spells would be FAR too much work so that method is out of the question.
In a nutshell, the most effective method seems to just be to DM rule effects larger. I was hoping to find some kind of math or system that would work, but despite the many good ideas posted so far, making whole spell lists larger for larger creatures will have world shattering effects. Its looking like there is no easy way around it short of making a new system for the entire concept of magic, or at least variant rules for spell save DCs, damage, and primary stat mods and such - aka - not what I am looking to do at all.

[Vizzerdrix]

This thread is missing something...

http://www.dandwiki.com/w/images/e/e4/Musclewizard.jpg

Muscle Wizard!

[thecrimsondawn]

This thread is missing something...

http://www.dandwiki.com/w/images/e/e4/Musclewizard.jpg

Muscle Wizard!



dont give me any ideas, I could make that!
Just need some stone shape, a high cha, and some enchantment spells.
Oh! and Spell Thematics to top it off!

[johnbragg]

Right, this is the issue I am facing. Right now I have to agree with everyone saying that its crazy to try to come up with a working system to fix it because as you said, it seems I would need to retool just far too much data in the 3,5 system.

How magic works in a game is very important. In my mind, magic is a formula of words, sigils, runes, formula, or other methods of interacting with the energy that is abundant in the world known as magic. Since it is a formula, as it was stated earlier, a spell that humans made would only be the size that humans made it, unless you altered the rule a bit with metamagic. Adding entire races worth of spells would be FAR too much work so that method is out of the question.
In a nutshell, the most effective method seems to just be to DM rule effects larger. I was hoping to find some kind of math or system that would work, but despite the many good ideas posted so far, making whole spell lists larger for larger creatures will have world shattering effects. Its looking like there is no easy way around it short of making a new system for the entire concept of magic, or at least variant rules for spell save DCs, damage, and primary stat mods and such - aka - not what I am looking to do at all.

AWay from books right now, but it's there a table in the DMG or maybe one of the arcane caster splatbooks with recommended damage for each spell level? (Just looking at the SRD, blasting spells don't really scale for base damage per level--damage caps go up, and obviously save DC goes up, but most AoE blasting spells are still d6/caster level)

Then use my freshly-homebrewed metamagic feats level adjustment 0, dilute spell[i] and [i]average spell. Average spell lets you take the average damage instead of rolling, and dilute spell lets you double a spell's radius, but you reduce the damage by 3/4.

So you take your basic fireball, apply widen spell for a 40' radius, and then [i]dilute spell[i] for an 80' radius. You're using a 6th level slot, so it's a 10d6 fireball, averaged to 35, divided by 4 is 9 points of damage.

[atemu1234]

Are peas really around eight feet in diameter in Louisiana? Normal peas are smaller than toads.

Louisiana is a strange place.

[Tvtyrant]

Make a "Giant's Casting" feat which allows you to widen and enlarge a spell a number of times equal to their size category larger than medium but takes an extra turn per ensizening. So a colossal dragon casts an eighty foot radius fireball out to a mile, but it takes four rounds to cast.

[thecrimsondawn]

Louisiana is a strange place.

Yes....yes it is

You would not understand unless you visit or live here just how unique this place is.

Louisiana is to the US to what Eberron is to d&d

[squiggit]

Yes....yes it is

You would not understand unless you visit or live here just how unique this place is.

Louisiana is to the US to what Eberron is to d&d

... full of robots and airships?

[Phelix-Mu]

Another part of the problem is that D&D was founded on images of small humanoids taking on big scary monsters and somehow surviving. If magic, by far the most powerful mechanic available in the game, scaled based on size, the small humanoids would be hilariously outclassed, and dragons would rule the multiverse (they get bigger as they age, continuously, across a very long lifespan, and potential immortality beyond that).

Not that I don't feel a sadistic desire to make life harder for small humanoids (READ: player characters), but I think this kind of houserule would, as mentioned, lead to a kind of size-based arms race.

And, for the record, you would need to right away fix polymorph and likely ban shapechange. You can't have the wizards have access to a single spell that can make all their other offensive spells more powerful by granting a size increase.

Also, see a problematic lack of strong correlation between size and number of HD.

[thecrimsondawn]

... full of robots and airships?

Well by robots if you mean people that are mindless drones that have no personality and just work to no gain, then yes, and if by airships you are talking about how intoxicated or hung over everyone is at any given time, then yes, people drive boats and ships way too fast and cause accidents - sometimes even airborne :P

If you ever visit, you will notice that nearly everything in the city has bars or fences blocking nearly everything for "protection"

Its kinda sad when your city is willing to spend tens of millions of $$ making fences, but cant afford to deal with the insane homeless rate due to rising costs of living and stagnant wages at jobs.
In the city I live in, the homeless rate has to be nearly 30%. The only way people survive here is by rooming with friends or living in a commune.
There is a good reason I escape to games and even more of one for trying to improve them.

[Magma Armor0]

I'm going to agree with the OP on this one, actually. Let me throw in a different example. Instead of casting fireball, they each cast summon instrument. The fairy is immediately crushed to death by the (comparatively) massive piccolo, while the great wyrm accidentally steps on the tuba he summons.
Sense? No. But that's how the spell functions right now. Assuming that these creatures have been researching magic for years, why would they settle for using spells that clearly do not fit their needs? A fireball would barely light a great wyrm's fireplace, but could incinerate an entire fairy village ( if they have those.) A giant has no use for Summon Wall of Knee High Rocks, or wall of stone as the rest of us know it. It doesn't make sense for them to use medium sized mundane tools, so why would magic, used in the same manner as a tool, be only available to them in inconveniently sized packages?

[Flickerdart]

I'm going to agree with the OP on this one, actually. Let me throw in a different example. Instead of casting fireball, they each cast summon instrument. The fairy is immediately crushed to death by the (comparatively) massive piccolo, while the great wyrm accidentally steps on the tuba he summons.
I'll just let the spell text speak for itself here.



This spell summons one handheld musical instrument of your choice. This instrument appears in your hands or at your feet (your choice). The instrument is typical for its type. Only one instrument appears per casting, and it will play only for you. You can’t summon an instrument too large to be held in two hands.

[Phelix-Mu]

Fairies could certainly have their own spells that work in their small lives. But it wouldn't be fireball or whatever. The spell should do what it says.

Consider: a fairy pc buys a scroll of fireball and a human pc buys a scroll of fireball in the same store in a human town. They pay the same for the same thing. But for some reason the fairy's fireball is useless in combat.

That is neither fair for a 3rd level slot (expected to have a certain power level in a typical encounter), nor is it fair for the same thing/same cost to vary between characters.

There are other problems along the same lines, but bottom line is if the dragon or fairy want a different effect, they should use a different spell. Anything else is complicated and potentially unfair/unbalanced.

[Magma Armor0]

The problem is what "typical for its type" means. I assume it means to use the entries from the phb. This means using the size and weights assumed for medium characters. Anything else would be "atypical"

[Yahzi]

I think in D&D magic is all from the same source, which explains why dragons and humans cast the same spells.

However, I find the argument about giants and titans absolutely compelling. Wall of Knee-High Rocks, indeed.

Rather than house-ruling that some creatures cast spells differently, it might be easier to house-rule new spells. There is a "Giant Wall of Stone" which is scaled up to be giant-sized in area and even thickness (i.e. hps) by a factor of 8 or so. Same for fireball, but you probably don't want to increase its damage dice, just its area. Make up these spells as appropriate; as long as your players know it is possible for one spell they shouldn't feel sand-bagged when they see other spells doing it.

These spells can only be learned by natural giants/titans/dragons etc. Of course the players might find a way to cast the spell once in a while (a scroll, or Wish/Miracle, etc.) but that's probably fine. You just don't want them spamming Giant Rock to Mud and eliminating your mountain chains.

[Magma Armor0]

Maybe add a set of "giant spells" or "dragon spells" that can only be cast if you have the appropriate heritage feat, gained by studying magic under the tutelage of giants/dragons, etc. Stops everyone from being able to cast Giant Wall of Stone without due cause.

[Zale]

I'm not understanding why bigger means more magical.

If the spell is like another but better, it has a higher level. Adding more area for free just because the caster is bigger seems to indicate that they're stronger magically for some bizarre reason.

I mean if you want to make a setting where strength in magic can be derived from height, be my guest, but you may want to change casting attributes from mental to something more concrete.

[ericgrau]

I think if the size/power of a spell depends on the size of the creature, then it will be an SLA not a spell. And many of these creatures already do have such SLAs. I think in a game where gnomes fight wyrms, it's best to leave it at that.

Heck, looking at spell level vs CR, dragons aren't even that good at magic. A CR 18 red dragon tops out at 3rd level spells and you better believe he won't be learning fireball. He'll be using his breath weapon and he'll know some spell like protection from energy. The party paladin is a better spell caster who likewise would rarely bother with AoEs.