Duel wielding elf help

[j_spencer93]

Ok i usually do not ask for help with this, especially not with duel wielding as it starts a lot of debates but after our last campaign our group is changing the way their characters are built. I, as DM, created an important NPC to aid them (i am being congratulated on not stealing the spotlight by my players), but his build so far is not very impressive, so i want help in making him better.
He is supposed to be an elite trained elf, but so far he is very very average.
DO NOT WANT TO CHANGE SIZE, USE ALOT OF MAGIC, OR ANY GAME BREAKING LOOP HOLES. Also i wield a scimitar only.
There are some home rules to know about first:


may start with extra items, approval by DM
feat at every odd level, get 1 background feat at start, approval by DM
Dervish makes all scimitars light weapons


Valenor Elf
Barbarian (whirling frenzy) 1, ranger 1
Str 16 (+3), Dex 15 (+2), Con 13 (+1), Int 16 (+3), Wis 12 (+1), Cha 17 (+3)

Current Feats
1st level- weapon focus (double scimitar)
flaw- combat expertise
flaw (elven pride)- expeditious dodge
ranger- track
background- blade bearer of valenor
item - mobility (leather armor of mobility)
item - two-weapon fighting (gloves of the balanced hand)

items were gained from clever use of party tricking a dragon into attack Amn, which they then proceeded to rob the horde of.

Planned Advancement
Ranger2
Barbarian 1
Warblade 2
Dervish 1
Revenant Blade 5
Champion of Corellon Larethian 2
Eternal Blade 7


Planned Feats
3rd: deadly defense
Ranger 2: two-weapon fighting
Gloves of the balanced hand: improved two-weapon fighting
5th:battle jump
7th: flay foe
revenant blade bonus: power attack?
zaelshin bonus (idk if spelled right): great cleave?
9th: karmic strike or robilar's gambit
revenant blade bonus: improved critical?
11th:double hit
revenant blade bonus: spring attack?
13th: two-weapon rend
15th: acrobatic strike
17th: greater two-weapon fighting
19ht:

I would be willing to change out classes/feats for better options. Avoiding magical classes if they are any more powerful then duskblade, spellthief, etc.

[Flickerdart]

Since Elves are usually Medium-sized, you will want the ability to wield light weapons sized for Huge creatures (or else Large one-handed weapons with Oversized TWF). The best way to do this is to get Huge (or Large + Powerful Build) yourself. Psychic Warrior using augmented expansion is probably your best bet. This is doubly nice because the elves might not be cooperative, and a larger size means they are easier to grapple or intimidate.

[j_spencer93]

not bad.
psionic warrior is on the table, but trying to shy away from anything casterish BUT it really could help my build, plus their are some interesting powers it can gain. I am not a fan of wielding oversized weapons however...I know its powerful and awesome but not for this characters. Grace over power here.

I usually avoid it...but any TOB or POW stuff that would fit nicely?

[Snowbluff]

The Tiger Claw School is focused on TWF. I like Raging Mongoose and Blood in the Water for Crit TWF builds. The PrC based on it is a trap, though.

[Hiro Quester]

The Tiger Claw School is focused on TWF. I like Raging Mongoose and Blood in the Water for Crit TWF builds. The PrC based on it is a trap, though.

This. But if you are crib-fishing, find a way to increase the crib range on your weapons. A kukri is the traditional critfisher weapon for a TWF warblade (for your offhand; it's basically a dagger with a bigger crit range).

And warblade instead of fighter gets you automatic proficiency, as I recall (I planned out a warbled build like this a while back, but never got to play it because of DM good restrictions against TOB :small frown: )

[gorfnab]

Warblade or Crusader (especially for the stance Thicket of Blades) into Eternal Blade from Tome of Battle would work nicely with parts of your setup. Going this route also opens up the combo of Combat Reflexes, Stormguard Warrior (ToB), and Robilar's Gambit (PHBII), which may prove more fruitful than Karmic Strike.

For the Barbarian level consider looking into the Spiritual Totem: Lion ACF from Complete Champion. It basically gives you pounce which is a great ability for multiple attack based builds.

For the Ranger level consider the Arcane Hunter ACF from Complete Mage. It combines nicely with the feat Nemesis from Book of Exalted Deeds. Going along that line Mage Slayer from Complete Arcane is also a nice feat with the previous options.

You have Double Hit listed twice.

Flay Foe and Two Weapon Rend while they add some extra damage, unfortunately they are not extra attacks so those feat may not be that effective in the long run.

Is getting +1 AC really worth using a feat slot for Shield of Blades?

[Chronos]

Am I the only one who interpreted the title to mean wielding an elf in each hand?

[Jay R]

I apologize that I have no help to offer - just a quick silly thought.

When I read the thread title, I thought your character was wielding two elves. I had an immediate image of an ogre with an annoyed elf in each hand.

[Ashes]

Okay, I'm gonna be the one to say this. You're obviously creating a DMPC. This is bad. You should not do this.
You should especially not build a flashy and cool superior elf-type fighter.

There is never a good reason for this.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Am I the only one who interpreted the title to mean wielding an elf in each hand?
I saw that and thought "His elf is wielding duels? Like, a combatant in each hand who are fighting each other while he uses them to fight his enemies? Fightception!"



Flay Foe and Two Weapon Rend while they add some extra damage, unfortunately they are not extra attacks so those feat may not be that effective in the long run.?

Two Weapon Rend is great if you have the feat Double Hit but tends to be forgettable without it. I would drop it here just because you are taking so long to get them. They only work well if you can snag them early.

[Flickerdart]

Am I the only one who interpreted the title to mean wielding an elf in each hand?
No; hence my post giving advice to that effect.

[Lerondiel]

...I, as DM, created an important NPC to aid them (i am being congratulated on not stealing the spotlight by my players), but his build so far is not very impressive, so i want help in making him better.
He is supposed to be an elite trained elf, but so far he is very very average. ....

Your comments are a little confusing. You're being congratulated on not stealing the spotlight, but now want to ramp up the character?


If he's a 2nd level elf wielding two scimitars he has no choice but being very very average. What are the PCs creating that makes you fear that a feat-enriched dervish wont keep up?

[animewatcha]

This is assuming you don't do the aptitude thing from Tome of battle.

If you are going revenant blade, the abilities for it ( amulet provides extra feat ) generally apply specifically to the valenar double scimitar. valenar elf can start with different proficiencies than normal elf. Two-weapon rend only applies once per round, while flay foe applies on the second hit and on. With two-weapon fighting, you will be running into Damage Reduction per weapon hit. Sense Weakness feat will help with this. Transmute weapon property and another one from MIC helps with this. Second one requiring hitting single foe on round 1, Round 2 and on you will ignore DR for that specific foe. Repeat when hit second foe.

[Solaris]

Okay, I'm gonna be the one to say this. You're obviously creating a DMPC. This is bad. You should not do this.
You should especially not build a flashy and cool superior elf-type fighter.

There is never a good reason for this.

Absolutes are always wrong.

His players like how he's running the character. That outweighs your own bad experiences for his group. It is, in fact, quite possible to run a successful game with (not "in spite of") a DMPC. Thus, in a thread where he's asking for help on a build as the party is rebuilding their characters for more power, telling him not to make the character at all is less than productive.

[KillianHawkeye]

Absolutes are always wrong.

Which, itself, is an absolute statement. Sorry, but I always have to point this out when people do it! :smalltongue::smallbiggrin:

[j_spencer93]

Ok will fix the double hit being listed twice. I like most of your suggestions, especially that barbarian lion ACF.
I am making a DMPC, actually my players wanted one so i obliged and created this elf. They really like him so far, and ways the party members are a Stalker, a Warlock, and a halfling based on throwing chakrams. Each so far has done well but greatly over shadowed this PC. For the sake of balance and not wanting to have this character slow them down i have asked for help.

Anyways, the warlock is focusing on utility and blasting (which he is doing great at), the halfling will bloom later, and the stalker is just kicking ass all over the place.

Shield of blades might be taken out. A +1 Ac isn't that great. Some warblade sounds good, or maybe Swordsage. More likely swordsage, idk why but think it fits the mobile fighter better. Sense weakness really fits with my intelligent mobile fighter idea so i will be looking into it.

lol just realized i missed level 3 and 5 on my feat list so that opens up some room.

[Solaris]

Which, itself, is an absolute statement. Sorry, but I always have to point this out when people do it! :smalltongue::smallbiggrin:

If you think I'm unaware of the irony in the statement and didn't do it deliberately, I have some nice beachfront property in Kansas to sell you.

[Seerow]

Have you considered a couple levels of Champion of Corellon? Lets you add dex in addition to strength with a bunch of weapons, including scimitar. It wouldn't be a stretch to have the double scimitar count. It does require a bunch of BS feats to get in though.

[ShurikVch]

Every single time I read name of this thread, I just visualize image of two ogres, which are dueling, using an elves as improvised weapon... :smallbiggrin:

[Necromancy]

Every single time I read name of this thread, I just visualize image of two ogres, which are dueling, using an elves as improvised weapon... :smallbiggrin:

I imagine going to the bookstore and asking where the "elf help" section is

[KillianHawkeye]

If you think I'm unaware of the irony in the statement and didn't do it deliberately, I have some nice beachfront property in Kansas to sell you.

No thanks, I've actually been to Kansas. :smallamused:

[atemu1234]

No; hence my post giving advice to that effect.

Darn. That would be awesome.

[Lorddenorstrus]

Have you considered a couple levels of Champion of Corellon? Lets you add dex in addition to strength with a bunch of weapons, including scimitar. It wouldn't be a stretch to have the double scimitar count. It does require a bunch of BS feats to get in though.

One of the players in my current group specifically is building around that class and yeah i looked at the feat reqs to get into it and was like.. "im going to get cancer if I see dodge on anyones feat list anymore.. I hate that feat." So I deleted it's existence for the purpose of this campaign. Much to the happiness of my players, who had looked at some feats with it as a pre req. But yeah Dex and Strength to damage is pretty damn good for a twf.

[j_spencer93]

love that class, just need to find a way to make it fit in. Prob drop some dervish levels to get it.

Also, i now want to make an ogre using an elf as a weapon. my players would love that

[Seerow]

One of the players in my current group specifically is building around that class and yeah i looked at the feat reqs to get into it and was like.. "im going to get cancer if I see dodge on anyones feat list anymore.. I hate that feat." So I deleted it's existence for the purpose of this campaign. Much to the happiness of my players, who had looked at some feats with it as a pre req. But yeah Dex and Strength to damage is pretty damn good for a twf.

Personally if I had a player interested in CoCL I'd change the Prereq feats to: Weapon Finesse, either Weapon Focus(any finessible weapon) OR Exotic Weapon Proficiency (any elf weapon), and either Dodge OR Combat Expertise.

And then let the Graceful Strike apply with the weapon proficiency/focus used to qualify for the class. Basically get rid of the weird out of place mounted combat, give the choice of which defensive feat you want, and open up usable weapons. Heavy Armor proficiency requirement would probably get dropped to Medium, since the armor based class features work with medium armor as well as heavy, and who knows maybe it'd encourage some people to use medium armor.


Also, i now want to make an ogre using an elf as a weapon. my players would love that


Ogre Monk/Drunken Master? I can't think of any other classes that use improvised weapons besides hulking hurler. And if you're going that route, you want to use gnomes as ammunition, not elves.

[Kennisiou]

There's actually a thread on this forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279079-3-5-The-TWF-OffHandbook) that's a full handbook on two weapon fighting optimization. Cliff notes version is: get to-hit bonuses, get on-hit bonus damage/on-hit effects like wounding weapons, and get a way to move and full attack in the same round.

A great way to accomplish all three is to take a single level of cloistered cleric. You get knowledge domain and two other domains of your choice (if you are devoted to a specific god, they must be domains from that god). You can trade access to any domain for the associated devotion feat, assuming the domain has one. This means you can get Knowledge Devotion (roll knowledge checks to gain to-hit bonuses and damage bonuses against enemies), Travel Devotion (swift movement for 1 minute once per day, spend 2 undead turning attempts to activate additional 1 minute intervals), and then nab your favorite utility domain (Hunger, Luck, Liberation, Celerity, Undeath, Pride, Liberation, Fate, Time, and Trickery are all excellent options). You just got two incredibly important feats and a solid class feature in one level. Probably the strongest one-level dip in the game. Beyond that, I'd probably either focus on being a Bard/Warblade class combo, a ranger/scout or a swashbuckler/rogue(/Bayushi Deceiver 3/Sword Sage 2), as those are all solid TWF archetypes. Lots of people also favor Psychic Warrior, and I can see why, but I feel like it doesn't have the bonus damage that the combos I suggested do. Also, all three combos I suggested are magic-light (bardblade tends to be a tad heavier on the warblade half), fit nicely with the idea of an elite elven soldier, and give him access to a lot of non-combat skills that the party can make use of, even if it's just to have their ranger buddy roll survival checks for them.

[Seerow]

So here's my take on the character in question, build going 1 to 20.

Ranger2/Fighter1/Barbarian 1/Warblade1/Revenant Blade 5/Champion of Corellon Larethian 2/Eternal Blade 8


Feats:
Background: Bladebearer of Valenar
Flaw1) Combat Expertise
Flaw2) Expeditious Dodge
1) Weapon Focus(Double Scimitar)
R1) Track
R2) Two-Weapon Fighting
F1) Mounted Combat
3) ???
6) ???
9) ???
12) ???
15) ???
18) ???

So by level 3 you have all of the feat prerequisites for all 3 prestige classes. By having the first level as ranger you boost the skill points dramatically making it a lot easier to hit the various skill prerequisites, with some to spare to flesh out what you want. Honestly the level of Fighter isn't needed and can be swapped out for an extra Warblade, Barbarian, or Ranger level to taste (would recommend Barbarian or Warblade if worrying about exp penalties).

The early dipping makes sure the character has a solid foundation to maintain competence until the later prestige class abilities come online. The build really comes into its own around level 10-12 when you are getting your key abilities from Revenant Blade and CoCL. Popping into Eternal Blade at the end maintains the flavor from Revenant Blade (the whole drawing upon your ancestors for guidance) and gives you some late game initiating power, letting you end with IL14 (7th level maneuvers), with 6 readied maneuvers and 2 stances.

Variant: If you want to focus more on being a heavily armored elf and less initiating, going CoCL6/Eternal Blade4 gets you Mithral Full Plate with a max dex of +5, no speed penalties, and uncanny dodge in plate. Or Mithral Breastplate with Max Dex +7.

Other Recommendation: Consider the Ferocity variant from Cityscape instead of Whirling Frenzy. Ferocity's restrictions are slightly lighter than normal rage (I don't remember exactly, but I do remember being able to use combat expertise with it), and it gives a bonus to dex instead of ref/AC, which is helpful when you get to add dex to damage. The extra attack from whirling frenzy is probably still be worth more though, your mileage may vary.

[j_spencer93]

Wow i like that seerow.

I wanted a thousand cuts but not sure how to fit it into build...looks to be post epic if i get that far. Actually I do want dervish in atleast a little...dervish dance was a lot of my idea behind this build.

Ranger2/Barbarian 1/Warblade1/Dervish 1/Revenant Blade 5/Champion of Corellon Larethian 2/Eternal Blade 8

How would that fare in the game? I lose an extra feat but that isn't to big of a concern, eternal blade was considered before but dropped because I didn't think it was that good.....:smallredface: Really loving the idea of an ancestor helping me in my head to become a better fighter. Right now i am so psyched for this character.

Ferocity looks nice but idk about changing whirling frenzy.

Maneuvers would help a lot though. I am supposed to be an agile fighter and alot of those give that option. Another reason I want dervish dance also. Combining it with battle jump always seemed decent to me.

Any reason elven crafted mithril plate mail wouldn't work for me?

[Seerow]

Only problem is Dervish requires BAB+5, as does Revenant Blade. So you can squeeze in a level of Dervish, but not by dropping a base class level. You'd have to cut out a level of Eternal Blade.

On the bright side none of the feats required go beyond what you already need for the other classes, so you get in for a few skill ranks. But it does mean delaying the other stuff you want by a level and losing Tactical Insight (not a big loss at least).


Ferocity looks nice but idk about changing whirling frenzy.


It probably won't matter much unless you spend a couple feats on extra rage. 1/day rage will be a relatively minor part of your arsenal.


Any reason elven crafted mithril plate mail wouldn't work for me?


I'm not familiar with Elven Crafted armor. Source? Closest I can think of is Feycraft from DMG2, which makes the armor weigh less but doesn't really affect much gameplay wise. You can use Mithril Plate without going further into CoCL, but you will take the move speed penalties, and CoCL eliminating those is a nice feature.

[j_spencer93]

Seerow...i think elvencraft is from a 3rd party book, but idr honestly off the top of my head. Its simply it my blacksmithing exel which is made of material from books i no longer have on my computer. IDR where its from but basically it is mithril that has to be applied to an already mithril item at the time of creation. (turns heavy into light with higher dex bonus).

As DM i am finding it hard not to favor this character but the players think im doing great (almost got him killed by a pack of wererats defending them).

Ranger2/Barbarian 1/Warblade2/Dervish 1/Revenant Blade 5/Champion of Corellon Larethian 2/Eternal Blade 7 (11th level initiator???)

Now something bothers me about this build, Kharmic Strike vs Robilar's Gambit, which should i have in this build or should either be in it. Neither really screams at me for being focused on mobility and dodging, actually they are about allowing yourself to be easier to hit. Although it does make for a cool "I'm so fast you can't hit me even when i purposely give you the chance to" character.

Would power attack be a good choose for this build?

[j_spencer93]

Armor question
Light Plate Mail (with a +4 dex mod thanks to elven craft + mithril) +8 ac, +4 dex mod
OR
leather armor with improved armor dance so +2 AC, +4 dex mod, +4 dodge bonus
OR
mithril full plate with improved armor dance +8 ac, +3 dex mod, +4 dodge bonus

the last option gives the highest benefit but requires two feats...

[Seerow]

Seerow...i think elvencraft is from a 3rd party book, but idr honestly off the top of my head. Its simply it my blacksmithing exel which is made of material from books i no longer have on my computer. IDR where its from but basically it is mithril that has to be applied to an already mithril item at the time of creation. (turns heavy into light with higher dex bonus).

In that case, if that's a source you're using in your campaign go for it. I'm not sure why anybody would ever use armor that is not elvencraft plate given that it exists as you described.


As DM i am finding it hard not to favor this character but the players think im doing great (almost got him killed by a pack of wererats defending them).

The favoring thing is why people generally warn against DMPCs. Not saying you're crossing the line, but be careful.


Ranger2/Barbarian 1/Warblade2/Dervish 1/Revenant Blade 5/Champion of Corellon Larethian 2/Eternal Blade 7 (11th level initiator???)

With that build Warblade 2 + eternal blade 7 is IL9, the other 11 levels get you 1/2 IL so 5.5+9 = 14.5 = 14.


Now something bothers me about this build, Kharmic Strike vs Robilar's Gambit, which should i have in this build or should either be in it. Neither really screams at me for being focused on mobility and dodging, actually they are about allowing yourself to be easier to hit. Although it does make for a cool "I'm so fast you can't hit me even when i purposely give you the chance to" character.

Honestly I would not use either of them. While it would be effective, it is dramatically increasing your NPC's action economy, which could start grating on the players when the NPC starts getting an extra couple of attacks in between his normal series of attacks every round.

If you want something to react to movement and show his speed/agility, Evasive Reflexes might be a good place to look. When an enemy provokes an AoO, take a 5ft step instead.

Elusive Target is another fun feat that shows off being a very evasive hard to pin down fighter without really outshining anybody.

You might want to consider heavy armor optimization, two feats there will give +2 AC and drop ACP by 3, not the best, but it can let you take advantage of the decent skills most of your classes have.

On the skill note, Knowledge Devotion might not be a bad call. After grabbing all of your prereq skills, invest your points in knowledge skills, and get an extra bonus to hit and damage basically all the time.

And of course there's tons of two weapon fighting feats out there to blow your feat load on.


Would power attack be a good choose for this build?

Revenant Blade is practically made for Power Attacking. So yes it absolutely is a good choice. It also tends to synergize well with other PA boosters, but I would avoid those for the same reason as avoiding Karmic Strike/Robilar's Gambit.

[Vizzerdrix]

Am I the only one who interpreted the title to mean wielding an elf in each hand?

I was already planning out a build the second I saw the title. I say we go for it! Let us make this thing!

[j_spencer93]

Well i think it can only be crafted by elves for elves (pretty sure its in its text). Also it was really really expensive. Anyways, it never really comes up to be honest.
As for those two feats, you are right, neither is my choice.
Power Attack is in.
I like evasive reflexes and evasive target. I will check around to see which i think will work the best. Knowledge devotion might be nice since he is supposed to be smart.

Also, ya although i really love this character I understand to not outshine the PCs. Really so far he has only keep the enemies focused on him while the PC's tear them apart. At higher levels im not sure i could outshine their builds.

The halfling focused on chakrams will end up with a build that lets him bounce each attack 2 or 3 times, so 3 targets per attack really, with each attack counting as a two-handed blah blah blah. The build is on this site somewhere.

The warlock is going hellfire warlock while focusing on utility and debuffing. Mortalbane also in his build.

NOW the swashbuckler/stalker already is outshinning us all. And from what i have seen of his build he only gets better from here on out.
However i still understand your point, don't push the NPCs into PC territory. He is supposed to be secondary to them. Actually planning him to more then likely die at high levels fighting the Elf Eater elder evil thing while the PCs take on the main villian.