Why dinosaurs?

[YossarianLives]

Basically the name says it all. I know it's a fantasy game and dinosaurs are great and all (because, dinosaurs) but why include them in the monster manual?

[Troacctid]

it's a fantasy game and dinosaurs are great and all (because, dinosaurs)

Sounds like you answered your own question. :smallsmile:

[Malimar]

You said it yourself: because dinosaurs.

More serious answer: D&D is based, at least in part, on fiction. I can name off the top of my head many works of fiction that include dinosaurs. It would be a grave omission to leave them out.

Probable actual answer: Gygax &co scraped inspiration from every source they could get their hands on. Why wouldn't they scrape from paleontology, a subject that already elicits obsession in most children and some adults?

[Zaq]

Why not dinosaurs?

[YossarianLives]

I see your point.

[Judge_Worm]

Rule #0: DM fiat
Rule #-1: Rule of Cool

[Windrammer]

There isn't much reason not to. What is and isn't extinct in our world really isn't relevant to a DnD setting, which is based on creation myth in most cases. And they fulfill a unique niche of monster... Terrible lizards that don't fly or breathe fire.

[DrMotives]

Also, since 3.5 made them all animals, they make some of the best lycanthrope templates out there.

[Karl Aegis]

Because Tomb Raider 2 had them and Wizards of the Coast couldn't be shown up by mere video games.

[DarkestKnight]

Because a Jurassic Park adventure would be pretty cool.

[bloodystone2]

Dinosaurs had a massive part in the dnd world. First DnD dragon was a T-Rex with cardboard wings.

[DrMotives]

Dinosaurs had a massive part in the dnd world. First DnD dragon was a T-Rex with cardboard wings.

It's true. Also, the first breath weapon was just really bad halitosis.

[Deox]

Because a Jurassic Park adventure would be pretty cool.

Next campaign.

[Vizzerdrix]

Every DM knows that the best way to prevent getting flogged by their players is to always, always add more dinosaurs.

[Tvtyrant]

I think the real question here is why a Griffon is a magical beast but a pterodactyl is an animal...

[DrMotives]

I think the real question here is why a Griffon is a magical beast but a pterodactyl is an animal...

I think that was a result of the "all non-real world creatures are magical beasts instead of animals" rule, which is only broke about a half dozen times or so in official books.

[Ashtagon]

I think that was a result of the "all non-real world creatures are magical beasts instead of animals" rule, which is only broke about a half dozen times or so in official books.

Personally, I think Magical Beast should have been reserved for animals which have an ability that is openly non-mundane. If magic merely has a hand (potentially) in its creation, but it is otherwise non-magical, it should be Animal (mythic). We could then add other Animal subtypes, such as dinosaur, mammal, reptile, and so on.

[Bad Wolf]

Because dinosaurs. Riding in on a riding dog just doesn't cut it.

[DrMotives]

Personally, I think Magical Beast should have been reserved for animals which have an ability that is openly non-mundane. If magic merely has a hand (potentially) in its creation, but it is otherwise non-magical, it should be Animal (mythic). We could then add other Animal subtypes, such as dinosaur, mammal, reptile, and so on.

Some of those things were in the "beast" type which was gotten rid of in 3.5, along with shapechanger. While I agree with shapechanger being dumped, beast was useful for those animal intelligent fantasy monsters with no supernatural powers. It covered griffons, owlbears, ankhegs, and a few more things. It would have covered pegasus if they didn't up those to such a high intelligence. I would rather have kept beast as a type and demote the giant type to humanoid (giant) subtype instead, if I had written the 3.5 books.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Because they included pretty much everything in the monster manuals, no matter the source. And made up more when they ran out.
Dinosaurs were probably pretty high on the "what kind of cool critter can we add next?" list. Because dinosaurs. :smalltongue:

[squiggit]

Because they included pretty much everything in the monster manuals
Everything except ducks.

[General Sajaru]

It also fits with the potential for a prehistoric campaign mentioned in the little other weapons technologies section of the DMG. While humans and dinosaurs never interacted, it wouldn't be too far out there to make a Stone or Bronze Age campaign where you had to deal with dinosaurs. Also, Dinotopia.

[Andezzar]

I think that was a result of the "all non-real world creatures are magical beasts instead of animals" rule, which is only broke about a half dozen times or so in official books.There's also the rule that animals have INT 1 or 2. If not, they are magical beasts.

[Coidzor]

Land of the Lost/Lost Valley/Valley of the Lost sort of stories and because dino-riders are fun alternatives when your dragons are, well, D&D Dragons instead of the kind that two-bit barbarians can ride.

[Kennisiou]

Everything except ducks.

And leprechauns.

Still annoyed by the lack of leprechauns.

[Ashtagon]

Everything except ducks.

Yeah. Only Runequest has ducks.

Seriously, they are a playable character race in that game.

[Reprimand]

Because a Jurassic Park adventure would be pretty cool.

I did this once!

I was a druid wildshaped into a Fleshraker riding a triceratops with a t-rex animal companion summoning pterodactyls.

Awwww, YEAH.

[Bullet06320]

I did this once!

I was a druid wildshaped into a Fleshraker riding a triceratops with a t-rex animal companion summoning pterodactyls.

Awwww, YEAH.

I think you win this thread

[Judge_Worm]

Everything except ducks.

Either Frostburn or Stormwrack has stats for penguin, which work well for ducks.


And leprechauns.

Still annoyed by the lack of leprechauns.

I agree, leprechauns would round out fey nicely.


I'm bothered by the lack of a sasquatch pc race.

[Killer Angel]

Because a Jurassic Park adventure would be pretty cool.

Or an adventure in a deep jungle, searching for ancient ruins and moss-covered temples.
Yuan ti and dinosaurs is all you need.

[Chronos]

There may not be any ducks, but there is a duckbunny (http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/duckbunny.png)

[Jay R]

I think you're all missing a really obvious answer:

Because it's always easy to find a bunch of plastic dinosaurs in a toy store.

[Vizzerdrix]

I think you're all missing a really obvious answer:

Because it's always easy to find a bunch of plastic dinosaurs in a toy store.

IIRC, that is where the rust monster came from. :smallsmile:

[Kennisiou]

I agree, leprechauns would round out fey nicely.


It's even more annoying because they're referrenced in the PHB as creatures that speak sylvan.

[TrollCapAmerica]

Let's not forget that pulp fantasy lost valley/world stories have been around for almost as long as we knew Dinosaurs existed. Conan slaying a T-Rex is too cool a concept not to use

I've also had a post-magical-Apocalypse campaign where one of the most dangerous antagonist groups were NE Druids blaming mankind for the apocalypse and with a heavy reptilian bent. Man there's nothing like watching PCs run from stampeding Tricertops Calvary

[CelestialSloth]

Because they make the best animal companions for druids!:smallbiggrin:
I want to play as a druid with a dinosaur now, actually.
"You cannot defeat me and my magic dinosaur! We are the coolest!"

[ericgrau]

There may not be any ducks, but there is a duckbunny (http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/duckbunny.png)

Compared to the duckbunny, fwumph (or whatever it's called), a baited tree stump and so on, 3.5 is actually rather scant on the crazy and dinosaurs are a rather tame and obvious choice.

[Talya]

Why? So that I could have an NPC dwarven ranger utter the following to one of the PCs in my campaign:


Okay, lass, try to imagine yerself alone in this jungle. Ye get yer first look at this "overgrown lizard" as ye enter a clearing. 'E moves like a bird, lightly, bobbin' 'is head. An' ye keep still because you think that maybe 'e cannae see as well in the dark like ye an' yer purrty elf eyes - perhaps 'e'll lose ye if'n ye hide an' dinnae move. But no, not deinonychus. Ye stare at 'im, an' 'e just stares right back. And that's when the attack comes. Not from the front, but from the side, from the other two deinos ye di'n't e'en know were there. Because deino's a pack hunter, aye? 'E uses coordinated attack patterns an' 'e is out in force today. And 'e slashes at ye with this six-inch retractable claw, like a razor, on the the middle toe. 'E don't bother to bite your jugular like a gryphon, say... no no. 'E slashes at ye here, or here... Or maybe across the belly, spilling yer inards. The point is, lass, ye're alive when they start to eat ye. So ye know, try to show a little respect.

[Phelix-Mu]

Why? So that I could have an NPC dwarven ranger utter the following to one of the PCs in my campaign:

Very cool.

For the record, there are published dinosaur adventures in places like the Jungles of Chult that prominently include dinosaurs. If it weren't so late, I'd dig up some links, but the fact is that this isn't new to WotC.

And it really isn't that new to fantasy, either. As far back as Journey to the Center of the Earth there were fantastic tales of places where extinct animals and dinos still flourished. I think this isn't that far away from dragons, who were widely held to be real before St. George slew the last one (and general good sense and Western logic killed all of that good fun).

While it isn't particularly D&D, the idea that, once upon a time, huge lizards ruled a world in which humans didn't exist, is pretty iconic. In a sense, they epitomize the world sans sentients, mighty beasts of nature that live their lives oblivious to our mundane concerns (work, money, fame, etc). I rather like their inclusion.

The only thing I really missed in the 3.x monster books was the giant space hamster and its affiliated abominations. Good times, good times.:smallamused:

[ericgrau]

I think this isn't that far away from dragons, who were widely held to be real before St. George slew the last one
I kinda wonder who slew the 2nd to last dragon. It seems like he deserves more credit. Because St. George didn't really have to do anything after that. He could have waited for nature to take its course. Granted the last one was probably still terrifying, but much less terrifying than the possibility of several dragons for generations to come.

[squiggit]

I kinda wonder who slew the 2nd to last dragon. It seems like he deserves more credit. Because St. George didn't really have to do anything after that. He could have waited for nature to take its course. Granted the last one was probably still terrifying, but much less terrifying than the possibility of several dragons for generations to come.

Unless dragons reproduce asexually or the second to last dragon was the same sex as the last dragon.

[Phelix-Mu]

I kinda wonder who slew the 2nd to last dragon. It seems like he deserves more credit. Because St. George didn't really have to do anything after that, we could have waited for nature to take its course. Granted the last one was probably still terrifying, but much less terrifying than the possibility of several dragons for generations to come.

And while we are musing, the final act of killing in a long-running genocide doesn't really seem a great legacy for George there. If I were him, I'd be bothered by how closely my name and dragons were linked on google.

Which means that St. George is a fan of Game of Thrones. True fact.

[ericgrau]

Also I think dragons and dinosaurs used to be the same thing until we got all sciency about them. It's not like nobody ever found a dinosaur bone before 1800. A new name was probably best to avoid mix ups with stories.

[Killer Angel]

I kinda wonder who slew the 2nd to last dragon. It seems like he deserves more credit. Because St. George didn't really have to do anything after that. He could have waited for nature to take its course. Granted the last one was probably still terrifying, but much less terrifying than the possibility of several dragons for generations to come.

Don't worry abut dragons.
They will be back soon (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v520/n7545/full/520042a.html).

(yes, I'm aware of the publishing date)

[Andezzar]

Lol. Look at the publication date.

[Eloel]

Lol. Look at the publication date.

Lol. Look at the white text.

[Phelix-Mu]

Ah, if only is was so. It's about time the planet kicked mankind in the balls for the last few centuries of reckless endangerment.

My inner druid emerges. Back to breeding man-eating trees!:sabine:

[YossarianLives]

I think being eaten by a dragon would be one of the best ways to die actually.

[Afgncaap5]

Aw, it looks like most of the awesome answers to the thread's question have already been taken.

On a more serious level, "Why dinosaurs?" can be answered with "to give ranger and druid PCs a moment to be totally epic." If you roll a dinosaur on a random encounters table, and it's a level too high for the PCs to normally engage anyway, druids and rangers have animal-specific abilities, some of which even work in non-magical environments, that can nullify the dinosaur as a threat. If the ranger's not done something cool in a few days, their ability to use Wild Empathy on the T-Rex that's poking its snout into the hole where the players hide can give it a moment of awesomeness by being, effectively, the trump card in an otherwise hopeless situation. Sort of like being a dwarvish Fighter or Barbarian when the challenge of the day is a drinking contest. It's a great story for later, and a nice moment in the spotlight.

[Strigon]

Don't worry abut dragons.
They will be back soon (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v520/n7545/full/520042a.html).
[/COLOR]

Quick! Hide it before Michael Bay finds it!

[Bulldog Psion]

I thought that Belkar's Bloodfeast scene already answered the question "why dinosaurs?" :smallbiggrin:

[Killer Angel]

Lol. Look at the white text.

:smallbiggrin:


I think you're all missing a really obvious answer:

Because it's always easy to find a bunch of plastic dinosaurs in a toy store.

..and if you're fixed with warhammer fantasy - lizardmen army, you'll have basically a whole set of minis, ready to play!

[hiryuu]

Why not dinosaurs? They're basically mutant death birds. Many of them are big and impressive, they're real, but they're removed from us to such a degree that no one has seen a live non-avialan one, so they slot into fantasy quite easily. Prehistoric mammals are cool, too, and I'd like to see more Permian stuff.

The D&D stuff is all based on a preponderance of pulp mythos, and that stuff is saturated with dinosaurs. The 1880s through the 1940s were not unlike the 1990s when it came to the popularity of dinosaurs, and they show up in fiction and artwork of the period, so much that their (incorrect) lizard-like countenances graced nearly everything fantasy all the way up to, well, since ever - dinosaur-like lizard monsters are as iconic to fantasy as "subhuman primitives."

What I'd like to see is a "dinosaur renaissance" as homebrewers, trying something new, start injecting scientifically accurate dinosaurs into settings the same way the aforementioned "subhuman primitives" are getting sympathetic portrayals and becoming something, well, less horribly racist. I think there's a good stat thread going on the Playground so far, or at least, there was.

For my setting, I didn't use dinosaurs as they were, I set them up as if the non-avialan dinos had another few million years or so, which gives some fun wiggle room with species and lineages. Scratches my spec-bio itch. But then, sometimes I give animals spell-like and supernaturals, because it only makes sense for some to have them.

[Rijan_Sai]

Why? So that I could have an NPC dwarven ranger utter the following to one of the PCs in my campaign:
Okay, lass, try to imagine yerself alone in this jungle. Ye get yer first look at this "overgrown lizard" as ye enter a clearing. 'E moves like a bird, lightly, bobbin' 'is head. An' ye keep still because you think that maybe 'e cannae see as well in the dark like ye an' yer purrty elf eyes - perhaps 'e'll lose ye if'n ye hide an' dinnae move. But no, not deinonychus. Ye stare at 'im, an' 'e just stares right back. And that's when the attack comes. Not from the front, but from the side, from the other two deinos ye di'n't e'en know were there. Because deino's a pack hunter, aye? 'E uses coordinated attack patterns an' 'e is out in force today. And 'e slashes at ye with this six-inch retractable claw, like a razor, on the the middle toe. 'E don't bother to bite your jugular like a gryphon, say... no no. 'E slashes at ye here, or here... Or maybe across the belly, spilling yer inards. The point is, lass, ye're alive when they start to eat ye. So ye know, try to show a little respect.

Please tell me that, when this small moment of epicness came to pass, Angus used a deinonychus' claw for emphasis during the "...here, or here..." part?
:smallbiggrin: