Did I make this puzzle to hard?

[urbanwolf]

My players have been having more trouble with a puzzle then I anticipated.

The goal was to do something that would require multiple sessions to solve. The players where sent to kidnap a goblin witch by the hags that they have been working for. After what seemed a simple encounter with the hobgoblin leader the players discovered that the hobgoblin was immortal and would not die. After "killing" him the corpse began healing at an alarming rate. They bisected him, and when that did not work they threw him off a cliff and flew away.

And now the creature is hunting them down. They have had two more encounter with him each required them to disable the monster and then get away, they buried him in an rock slide and the second time they threw him into a raging river. They have not fought him again for a while. They are scared enough and I don't want to over expose them to complicated fights.

They sought out the advice of a high level Spinx Wizard to find out how to kill him for good
now Spinx only speak in rhythm(in my campaign) so I made a poem answer for them

If you wish to end the curse
Listen well no time to rehurse

The for you fight cannot die
seven steps you must try

First you must quell his rage
Then you can put him in a cage

Cut out his heart with a silver knife
limited time you must relife

Now you are half way done
I hope you are having fun

Step five requires hidden knowledge
The forbidden name you must dredge

Step six a fight
to test your might

Last you must contemplate
on the souls twisted fate

Follow down his dark path
face the dead's dreaded wrath

I have a few different idea how they can solve each quest and I have been listening to their ideas for each step
They are going around trying to learn the name they need for step five, but they can't figure out a way to trap him
So I gave them a hint

A ring of silver cut deep in the ground
Fine carved runes, the plan is sound


I am not that great at rhyming on the spot I really regret making sphinx speak that way.

but the feedback I am getting is that the poem is to vague, I don't want to spoon feed them information but I also want to make sure they are having fun what should I do?

[Aegis013]

...
but the feedback I am getting is that the poem is to vague, I don't want to spoon feed them information but I also want to make sure they are having fun what should I do?

When you have a puzzle for your players to solve, it's important to include sufficient clues.

If you think there are enough clues presently in the game for them to figure it out, multiply the number of clues by 3. They should be able to, figuratively, spell out the answer with a giant neon sign once they collect all the clues.

You can add more clues and ways to get them now that you're not right in the middle of the session, and can decide how quickly to introduce them.

If they figure it out sooner, they can feel smart, and either way, it won't be like they didn't work for it to some degree.

[Seerow]

*reads title*

*sees riddle in poem form in the post*


Yeah don't even need to read it. Your puzzle was bad.

[OldTrees1]

I read the riddle and the hint but I can only guess at steps 2 and 3.
2) Trap the monster
3) Cut out something from inside the monster

Riddles tend to be bad since you will have pressure to shorten them and thus fail to reach the 3x hints goal.

[BilltheCynic]

No offense, but you should probably refrain from using impromptu rhymes in the future. Just say the sphinx was messing with the "stupid monkeys" and switch to annoyingly cryptic mode.

As other posters have mentioned, the three clue method is quite helpful in getting your players to figure out what to do.

[With a box]

I'd rather try to pass the DC 30 Decipher Script check.

[Pinkie Pyro]

First, my guess at the answer is:

1. Cast calm emotions
2. Forcecage that sucker
3. Silver knife, cut out heart/magic cancer
4: Cast raise dead
5: Find true name of him/guy who cursed him
7a: cast detect alignment for step 7
6: Fight him 1v1
7b: plane-shift to where his soul resides, fight him again.

If I'm close, maybe give your players a few more hints.

If I'm way off, you might want to introduce them to someone good at riddles.

[urbanwolf]

First, my guess at the answer is:

1. Cast calm emotions
2. Forcecage that sucker
3. Silver knife, cut out heart/magic cancer
4: Cast raise dead
5: Find true name of him/guy who cursed him
7a: cast detect alignment for step 7
6: Fight him 1v1
7b: plane-shift to where his soul resides, fight him again.

If I'm close, maybe give your players a few more hints.

If I'm way off, you might want to introduce them to someone good at riddles.

You basically have it, except for the last step. All they have to do is forgive the hobgoblin to avoid being taken over by the thing inside of him.

And to calm him down they could also try diplomacy or fascination, but calm emotions is what they are planing
(and what I had in mid when I wrote the awful, awful, poem)
Well that and they only need to trap him dose not matter how. They are planing on using Magic Circle spells.

[CGNefarious]

First thing I would suggest is never making up riddles on the spot. A good riddle needs to be planned out and every sentence should be a clue that has a specific meaning when seen in context. Looking at your riddle (which honestly doesn't seem like much of a riddle really and more just like a vague description of what needs to be done) there are a lot of empty sentences that really mean nothing, are just added to keep the rhyming scheme, and will confuse your players. If they believe it's a riddle, they will look for (and find) meaning in every other word. They way you have it right now will confuse them more than anything. It's less that the puzzle is too hard and more that you're not really giving them the right tools to finish the job.

If you really want to go the riddle route for the seven different steps, I would suggest breaking it up into seven different, shorter riddles. Each riddle is 4 to 6 lines that each point to what needs to be done for the respective step. This way you don't have to be super obvious about what the answer to the riddle is, but since there are several different clues to each part, the PCs should be able to solve it if they can figure out a couple of the clues. This is obviously a lot more work for you, but that's what you get for trying to be clever. If done well (and your players enjoy mental challenges in their games) it could well be worth it. But if not it's just going to lead to frustrated PCs who don't have the clues to solve the puzzle you've given them.

[Sliver]

Does this really rhyme? I'm having a hard time with that one...


Step five requires hidden knowledge
The forbidden name you must dredge

[nedz]

Yeah — making up rhymes on the spot is hard. Unless you have a particular talent in that area you will likely just produce some doggerel.

I used to hate the old Legend Lore spell in AD&D — the party would always cast it on some innocuous item, never on an artefact or anything I could plan for. Cue: very bad poetry.

If they have sought out a sphinx though, then they have only themselves to blame. One idea would be for the sphinx to direct them to some other source of information which is less cryptic.

[Barstro]

As much as I like puzzles, they slow the game. Let your players find the journal of someone who already solved most of the riddle and narrowed down the true name.

[satorian]

Hm. I guessed most of them. Well, I guessed the same as the guy above who guessed them all but the last. I don't know how you expected anyone not in your head to get the last one.

Here's the thing: riddles like this should have exactly one reasonable answer. No more. If only a magic circle spell works to "cage", then the hint should clearly mean that, not an iron cage dropped from the ceiling, a force cage, or whatnot.

You should have a concrete answer, and your riddle to lead to that answer, and no other. Players will analyze and analyze to find the exact right thing. Don't lead them astray through vagueness.

[OldTrees1]

Hm. I guessed most of them. Well, I guessed the same as the guy above who guessed them all but the last. I don't know how you expected anyone not in your head to get the last one.

Here's the thing: riddles like this should have exactly one reasonable answer. No more. If only a magic circle spell works to "cage", then the hint should clearly mean that, not an iron cage dropped from the ceiling, a force cage, or whatnot.

You should have a concrete answer, and your riddle to lead to that answer, and no other. Players will analyze and analyze to find the exact right thing. Don't lead them astray through vagueness.

While "Do not be vague enough to include invalid answers as solutions to the riddle" and "Always know of at least 1 solution to any puzzle you give" are good rules, I am a fan of the "Always have puzzles open to multiple solutions" rule for the same reason I am a fan of the "Three hints" rule. A riddle with 3 correct answers and 0 false answers is easier to solve than one with 1 correct answer and 0 false answers.

[atemu1234]

I'd rather try to pass the DC 30 Decipher Script check.

Same. It seems like you worked backwards from an answer; it's vague and more importantly, superfluous.

[Amphetryon]

I'd rather try to pass the DC 30 Decipher Script check.

Pretty much. I can't say I'm a fan of tests of Player skill/cleverness where what you're trying to test is the skill/cleverness of the Characters, instead.

[Trasilor]

I just want to say kudos to you for trying to speak in rhyme on the spot with the sphinx. I wouldn't do it, but at least you are trying to keep immersion. :smallsmile:

However the riddle is tough - but I got around 5 of them off the bat. And while they may be tough or vague - you can encourage players to seek other means of discovering the truth: magic (although i find this a 'cheap' solution), find a renowned bard - perhaps they can offer help, historical research at a major city.

An immortal bugbear hobgoblin will have tales. I mean, just look at all the stuff the PCs have done in the short time they have been around this guy. I mean, what do adventurers due between adventures? Sit around pubs swapping stories. This bugbear hobgoblin would have significant history.

Personally, I would make this guy a major villain with ties to lots of secret societies with designs of world domination - the PCs just happen to stumble upon him.

[Diarmuid]

And rather than beating the entire thing with a single Decipher Script roll, you could assign skill checks to each "step" that could give hints as to what might be possible solutions, with the higher the check giving more concrete information.

This is a common tactic in modules that seems to work fairly well.

[ZamielVanWeber]

That was somewhat painful to read. Tips for the future:
1) Prepare all riddles ahead of time (has been said a few times now)
2) There is a reason many riddles don't bother with rhyme; they are a different literary form where words have special meaning, so only worry about mastering their meaning. And especially don't make up words on the spot. Something laden with meaning clashes with something that just came into being.
3) This one hasn't been said, but you will need to prepare extra clues for people whose characters' Ints are higher than theirs. I've played characters whose intelligence scores were well over 20. My int is probably far from 20, let alone the 24-26 they normally hit. Giving me, personally, a riddle will murder verisimilitude simply because my character could easily solve this even if I cannot touch it.

[P.F.]

I have to say, typo's and painfully awkward rhymes aside, this is an awesome riddle, and is easy enough to interpret as evidenced by those who attempted to solve it on this board, and your players' ability to interpret the results. Although I have to agree that the last clue couldn't possibly be read as "forgive."

Apart from the last clue, I would say the puzzle is not too hard, but if your players fail to solve it entirely, additional clues will be needed. Depending on the campaign, you might let them keep working on other goals with the subject of your riddle as a recurring antagonist until they gain new insight.


{scrubbed}

[Flickerdart]

As for players like these, there's always Munchkins! It's exactly the same as D&D but you will never have to solve puzzles or role-play.:smallbiggrin:
Using a mechanical solution (Decipher Script) is literally roleplaying because you are using your character's abilities rather than your own to solve a problem.

As for riddles, I don't recall anything in the rules that says riddles are required for D&D. Maybe it is you who would prefer an alternate game, which is exactly like D&D but with a bonus "poetry slam" round? :smallbiggrin:

[Anlashok]

Most of it isn't that bad.

The last clue is extremely vague and doesn't even imply really what your expected solution is.

The poem itself isn't very good though.



As for players like these, there's always Munchkins! It's exactly the same as D&D but you will never have to solve puzzles or role-play.:smallbiggrin:

Yeah. Because there's exactly zero middleground between stupid, tediously written, cringey poems and absolutely never roleplaying ever.

Nevermind that asking a player to solve a riddle presented to a character is the exact opposite of roleplaying in the first place.

[atemu1234]

As for players like these, there's always Munchkins! It's exactly the same as D&D but you will never have to solve puzzles or role-play.:smallbiggrin:

I roleplay and I was remarking upon how BAD the riddle was. It was simultaneously easy to solve, and even if I didn't, it unfolds on its own if I do the adventure!

Also, condescension is annoying.

[Seerow]

Nevermind that asking a player to solve a riddle presented to a character is the exact opposite of roleplaying in the first place.

Exactly this. It is not roleplaying to sit around trying to solve a riddle using your own personal capabilities. As much as certain categories of players will insist it is the one true way to roleplay, it actually represents the antithesis of roleplaying, taking you completely out of character to attempt to come up with an answer for your character, rather than relying on the character's capabilities and skillset to solve the problem at hand.

And I will cut myself off at that before I say things to get myself in trouble.

[P.F.]

{scrubbed}

Seriously, and not to derail the thread, but this is one heck of a rabbit-hole to go down. When I negotiate with party members as to whether or not to kill the prisoners, should their characters have to abide by my decision because I rolled a high diplomacy check? Should it be possible for a player to make tactical blunders which the character should not make? Should my DM veto a well-timed maneuvre because my character isn't experienced enough to come up with the plan?

Do I go right or left at this crossroads? Shouldn't my character know which way to go? Who decides whether he knows or not? Can he have chicken for dinner, or do I need to make a wisdom check to find out whether my character really wants tofu? Does my involvement with my character's thoughts, abilities, and decisions extend beyond class and feat selection? Or do I just put him on auto-pilot and go?

At some point, the players have to use their own cognitive abilities, social skills, and problem-solving to dictate which actions the character attempts. Exactly where the line is drawn varies from table to table, but I cannot agree that role-playing == roll-playing.


As for riddles, I don't recall anything in the rules that says riddles are required for D&D. Maybe it is you who would prefer an alternate game, which is exactly like D&D but with a bonus "poetry slam" round? :smallbiggrin:

Touché :smallwink:

[OldTrees1]

I have to say, typo's and painfully awkward rhymes aside, this is an awesome riddle, and is easy enough to interpret as evidenced by those who attempted to solve it on this board, and your players' ability to interpret the results. Although I have to agree that the last clue couldn't possibly be read as "forgive."

Apart from the last clue, I would say the puzzle is not too hard, but if your players fail to solve it entirely, additional clues will be needed. Depending on the campaign, you might let them keep working on other goals with the subject of your riddle as a recurring antagonist until they gain new insight.


Um. You might want to check again. Of the 2 guesses before the answer was revealed (2/7 and 6/7), the riddle had ~50% chance of being solved. Personally I think that is too low to claim as "easy enough".

[Flickerdart]

{scrubbed}Seriously, and not to derail the thread, but this is one heck of a rabbit-hole to go down.
No it isn't. Behold:


When I negotiate with party members as to whether or not to kill the prisoners, should their characters have to abide by my decision because I rolled a high diplomacy check?
No, because Diplomacy doesn't work on PCs by RAW. Should the 40 CHA Bard be incapable of convincing his allies of anything because he's being played by a shy and quiet nerd?


Shouldn't my character know which way to go? Who decides whether he knows or not?
Knowledge: Local, or possibly Knowledge: Geography.


At some point, the players have to use their own cognitive abilities, social skills, and problem-solving to dictate which actions the character attempts.
Yes, and the player decides "my character uses his ability to decipher scripts to solve the problem." I don't understand why you think this is somehow heretical.

[Elder_Basilisk]

The riddle isn't too hard but it is under-determined in that there are other potentially valid interpretations. If the players build an actual silver-filligree cage rather than use force-cage, for example, will you say it doesn't work?

On the other hand, I think there is a real problem with the complexity of the problem. You've made a lot of hoops for them to jump through with the only real payoff being to get this immortal hobgoblin off their backs. There are much easier ways to manage that within the rules. The last character I had who was high enough level to do this would have made it to stanza two of the riddle and said, "forget this garbage; I'm just going to cast Imprisonment until the bastard fails the save and then forget about him." If forcecage is an option, then imprisonment is a much easier solution than jumping through all the hoops. (Available starting level 17)

Since your solution appears to require defeating him in combat and/or otherwise incapacitating him, here are a bunch of other options for getting rid of the problem that can be pulled off by a group that can cast forecage and incapacitate him.

Immobilize him with hp damage then cast flesh to stone until he fails the save. Drop the statue in the middle of a volcano, the deepest part of the ocean, or plane shift it to the negative energy plane and call it a job well done. (Available from level 11)

Plane shift the jerk to a prison plane. (Available from level 9)

Cast genesis to create your own prison plane with no way out. Cast a permanent mind blank on him so that no-one can figure out where he is and then drop his unconscious body off there. (Available from level 17)

Find the tarrasque and feed the hobgoblin to him. Maybe he'll survive, but he's probably not cutting his way out of the tarrasque's belly any time soon. (Also known as the Saarlac solution--available from an indeterminate rather high level).

How about we just melt a block of adamantium, immerse him in it and then cool it. Lets see him get out of that. We can observe and see if it works. If it doesn't, what if we dismember the hobgoblin first and put each limb in a different block of adamantium? (Available from level 9 if you use stone rather than adamantium)

For evil characters, there's also the option of feeding him to a demi-lich. (Available whenever a non-hostile demi-lich is available).

[Escapist]

It's tricky but I reckon they'll figure it out. It sounds like they've already started to and you can drop more in and out of character clues for them if you need to.

That said did none of them think of stuffing him in a bag of holding closing it and then ripping it? That'd be my go to solution getting him irreversibly lost on the astral plane.

[Rainshine]

I mostly enjoy riddles. As a general rule though, as a DM, I never make a quest/campaign dependent on solving a puzzle. Maybe if they manage to decode the way into the secret lair, they find out about a secret weakness making a fight easier, or giving more treasure or something, but requiring my players to match my thinking never works out quite how I hope.

[Spore]

I guess I'm the first to admit that I'm a bit of a nucklehead (as well as impatient and not concentrated today) but I have not a single clue what seven step process is you want your Hobgoblin Terminator to undergo. I would have been annoyed by a recurring Hobgoblin (of all recurring villains!) a long time ago and my (player) motivation to solve the riddle would go towards zero. And your party has tried everything brute force has to offer (have I mentioned adventurers are excellent in the use of brute force?).

Concede the point to your party: You need something more than "DM fiat" to keep the monster alive. Be it a spell, an item or even just alchemy (magic's weird step cousin). If they can neutralize that they're fine. DO NOT INSIST on your players actually solving the riddle. Give them options. Now it's just the "jump through 7 arbitrary hoops to continue" and if only one of your player is like me they play P&P to have the freedom of choice not play a computer RPG.

I hope I am not offensive but I had a DM like you. He was appreciative of creative ideas but mostly shut them down with very demanding skill checks or riddles. We're playing for three years now and I still haven't solved the riddle of the ancient graves he gave me 5 nights into the game (Lv 1, we're Lv 11 now). Not because I'm that stupid but because we're missing vital information by DM fiat.

[Yahzi]

My players have been having more trouble with a puzzle then I anticipated.
Is the hard part supposed to be figuring out what to do, or doing it?

Because trapping an enemy so you can eviscerate him and then casting Raise Dead or something is already hard. Having to guess exactly what spell is supposed to work is double-hard.

Usually, it's one of two things: the task is clear but difficult (straighten a river, steal a golden fleece, etc.) or the task is ambiguous but easy to carry out (once you guess Rumplestiltskin's name you just have to say it to win).

If you're expecting your players to do both, then what you have is a campaign. When they can't guess a clue, send them on a quest to get the answer (give them a map to a dragon that knows the answer, or a map to a buried city that contains a library that contains a book that contains the answer.)