Shapechange things

[Pippin]

Hello playground,

1. Can I cast spells with either S, V or M components if I change into an Elemental ?
2. It is my understanding that my Str/Dex/Con bonuses I gained from leveling, my racial bonuses as well as my age maluses will not reapply if I change forms, but all the other bonuses (Wish, etc.) will. Can somebody else confirm that?
3. What's the best Dex score available with Shapechange ? (I can go up to 28 HD thanks to Reserves of Strength theoretically, though it's probably going to be tough at Lv20.)

[Angelmaker]

Hello playground,

1. Can I cast spells with either S, V or M components if I change into an Elemental ?
2. It is my understanding that my Str/Dex/Con bonuses I gained from leveling, my racial bonuses as well as my age maluses will not reapply if I change forms, but all the other bonuses (Wish, etc.) will. Can somebody else confirm that?
3. What's the best Dex score available with Shapechange ? (I can go up to 28 HD thanks to Reserves of Strength theoretically, though it's probably going to be tough at Lv20.)

1) if your new form allows for spellcasting ( has a voice, hands, etc. ) then yes. Otherwise you need to use metamagic like still spell, etc.

Afaik elementals should have their own versions of appendiges and are able to talk, so I don't think there is a limitation to that. Refer to individual elementals for confirmation.

2) bonuses do not matter, no matter the sources. Con, dex, str get replaced by new chosen form values, and you get to keep your wis, int, cha score, no matter how beefed

3) dont know

[Pippin]

1) if your new form allows for spellcasting ( has a voice, hands, etc. ) then yes. Otherwise you need to use metamagic like still spell, etc.

Afaik elementals should have their own versions of appendiges and are able to talk, so I don't think there is a limitation to that. Refer to individual elementals for confirmation.

2) bonuses do not matter, no matter the sources. Con, dex, str get replaced by new chosen form values, and you get to keep your wis, int, cha score, no matter how beefed

3) dont know

1. Well honestly I'm not sure if an Elemental has hands or can carry material components, so I'm asking.

2. Well now I don't know which stance to believe, since someone told me the opposite a few days ago. Could somebody else chime in? Enhancement, inherent and untyped bonuses should reapply, I can't see why not.

[Curmudgeon]

Inherent bonuses (from Tomes, Manuals, Wishes, and Miracles) apply to the character, not their form, so you keep those always. Most everything else is applied to your form.

[Pippin]

Inherent bonuses (from Tomes, Manuals, Wishes, and Miracles) apply to the character, not their form, so you keep those always. Most everything else is applied to your form.
So Bear's Endurance's bonus is lost once you change forms... Oh dear :(

[Crake]

Inherent bonuses (from Tomes, Manuals, Wishes, and Miracles) apply to the character, not their form, so you keep those always. Most everything else is applied to your form.

I've always assumed it's the other way around, inherent bonuses applied to your form, while enhancement bonuses were applied to the character, being buffs that enhance your character and whatnot.

The instantaneous inherent bonuses make you stronger, which is then overwritten by the form's new strength, wheras the magical buff will remain in place, providing you an enhancement bonus no matter how many forms you swap between

[sleepyphoenixx]

For the first i'd say that elementals do have hands. They can definitely speak. The only problem is that any material components meld into your form when you shift, so you'd have to drop them and pick them up after shifting form.


I've always assumed it's the other way around, inherent bonuses applied to your form, while enhancement bonuses were applied to the character, being buffs that enhance your character and whatnot.

The instantaneous inherent bonuses make you stronger, which is then overwritten by the form's new strength, wheras the magical buff will remain in place, providing you an enhancement bonus no matter how many forms you swap between

That's the way i interpret it too. Basically everything permanent is overwritten by your new forms scores while any temporary buffs apply to your new scores.

[Pippin]

For the first i'd say that elementals do have hands. They can definitely speak. The only problem is that any material components meld into your form when you shift, so you'd have to drop them and pick them up after shifting form.
Okay good, though an Elder Air Elemental carrying a bag is probably a funny thing to see.


That's the way i interpret it too. Basically everything permanent is overwritten by your new forms scores while any temporary buffs apply to your new scores.
That makes sense.

Follow-up question: if I carry a Stone of Good Luck and take a new form, melting it in my new form, does it still apply?

[Bronk]

I've always assumed it's the other way around, inherent bonuses applied to your form, while enhancement bonuses were applied to the character, being buffs that enhance your character and whatnot.

The instantaneous inherent bonuses make you stronger, which is then overwritten by the form's new strength, wheras the magical buff will remain in place, providing you an enhancement bonus no matter how many forms you swap between

I interpret it as applying to the character as well. My reasoning is that although they are bonuses that are instantaneously applied and not 'permanent', they also don't go away.

The bonus is magical in nature (comes from a wish) and is tracked separately for stacking purposes... they don't just get added to the character's base score as if they were an ability boost gained through leveling or taking on a template. Because of that, you know the magic is still active, and would even be detectable by a 'detect magic' spell. Also, the wish spell calls out inherent bonuses as being unable to be dispelled, but doesn't say anything about them being safe from an antimagic field.

Basically, they're not a 'permanent' bonus, but aside from being undispellable, they act exactly the same as one.

[Chronos]

The highest Dex available on any core monster is the elder air elemental. There's probably something from a splatbook that's higher, though.

[Duke of Urrel]

Hello playground,

1. Can I cast spells with either S, V or M components if I change into an Elemental ?
2. It is my understanding that my Str/Dex/Con bonuses I gained from leveling, my racial bonuses as well as my age maluses will not reapply if I change forms, but all the other bonuses (Wish, etc.) will. Can somebody else confirm that?
3. What's the best Dex score available with Shapechange ? (I can go up to 28 HD thanks to Reserves of Strength theoretically, though it's probably going to be tough at Lv20.)

1. If you mean true elementals, I believe they do speak (either Aquan, Auran, Ignan, or Terran), so that verbal components are no problem for them. However, I don't believe true elementals have hands to gesture or manipulate spell components. Ask your dungeon master.

2. I agree with Crake and Sleepyphoenixx. I believe every permanent attribute you have that is not the ongoing effect of a spell (such as an inherent bonus, an age penalty or bonus, an ability increase due to experience, or ability drain) is a polymorphable statistic. (Remember that the form you take when you polymorph yourself is supposed to be that of an average member of the species.) If you have a temporary attribute that is not the ongoing effect of a spell (such as ability damage or the Strength and Constitution increase that you get from barbarian rage), I believe it's not polymorphable.

Anything that is the ongoing effect of a spell (such as Bull's Strength) should follow the rules of spell stacking, which means that the enhancement bonus supplied by the Bull's Strength spell should stack with any "type-less" increase in Strength supplied by the Shapechange spell. If two spells have equal and opposite effects, the effect of the second spell cancels out that of the first spell. For example, the Polymorph spell, cast after the Darkvision spell, cancels out the Darkvision for as long as it lasts, but the Darkvision spell, cast after the Polymorph spell, bestows or restores Darkvision. However, the Shapechange spell may restore Darkvision as well as remove it (because this is an extraordinary special quality).

I'm sure that everything I've just written in the two preceding paragraphs is debatable, so be advised to ask your dungeon master (and to watch this thread for objections).

3. As far as I know, Chronos is right about this.

EDIT: Ack, the Darkvision was a bad example, because it bestows Darkvision as a spell effect, not as an extraordinary special quality.

[Bronk]

Anything that is the ongoing effect of a spell (such as Bull's Strength) should follow the rules of spell stacking, which means that the enhancement bonus supplied by the Bull's Strength spell should stack with any "type-less" increase in Strength supplied by the Shapechange spell.

This is true, and is the reason inherent bonuses are still applied after changing your form. Everything else you mentioned are house rules (nothing wrong with that, of course, in your game).

[Pippin]

1. If you mean true elementals, I believe they do speak (either Aquan, Auran, Ignan, or Terran), so that verbal components are no problem for them. However, I don't believe true elementals have hands to gesture or manipulate spell components. Ask your dungeon master.
I will but it's always nice to know what the general consensus is. For now it's still a bit obscure ^^

[Phelix-Mu]

As for arms, it is possible that elementals can carry things, and they do have a slam (though so do some oozes), but the real matter in question is hands. The game really drops the ball here, but I would generally say no. This is where druids get some really obvious passes with Natural Spell, but I believe there is a feat in Savage Species that does somewhat the same thing (and a similar but probably not useful Nonverbal Spell in Planar Handbook). Can't remember the name at the moment, and it isn't as broad as Natural Spell, but it is designed for use by non-humanoid spellcasters. Not sure it covered material components, though.

And, actually, I seem to be remembering that there is some mention somewhere of a rule for how non-humanoids do casting. It is possible that there is a written exemption already in some book or other, as I seem to recall a previous thread concluding that the feat I mentioned isn't always necessary.

[Pippin]

I didn't know this was specified in the books. Monster Manual reads:


A spellcasting creature that lacks hands or arms can provide any
somatic component a spell might require by moving its body. Such
a creature also does need material components for its spells. The
creature can cast the spell by either touching the required compo-
nent (but not if the component is in another creature’s possession)
or having the required component on its person. Sometimes spell-
casting creatures utilize the Eschew Materials feat to avoid fussing
with noncostly components.

However, it also specifies the following:


Alternate Form (Su): A creature with this special quality has
the ability to assume one or more specific alternate forms. This
ability works much like the polymorph spell, except that the crea-
ture is limited to the forms specified, and does not regain any hit
points for changing its form. Assuming an alternate form results
in the following changes to the creature:
[...]
—The creature retains any spellcasting ability it had in its orig-
inal form, although it must be able to speak intelligibly to cast
spells with verbal components and it must have humanlike hands
to cast spells with somatic components.
[...]

and


Change Shape (Su): A creature with this special quality has the
ability to assume the appearance of a specific creature or type of
creature (usually a humanoid), but retains most of its own physical
qualities. A creature cannot change shape to a form more than one
size category smaller or larger than its original form. Changing
shape results in the following changes to the creature:
[...]
—The creature retains any spellcasting ability it had in its orig-
inal form, although it must be able to speak intelligibly to cast
spells with verbal components and it must have humanlike hands
to cast spells with somatic components.
[...]

So, unless I'm reading this wrong, if a creature has spellcasting levels, it can cast spells by roughly "moving" its body and having the components somewhere on itself. But, if that creature decides to take another form, there is a sudden need for human-like hands.

[Phelix-Mu]

I think what they are trying to say is that if you start with the need for hands, you retain the need for hands. But if you are a creature that doesn't need it (couatl comes to mind), then I would say that no-hands method could be retained. But another DM might opt for the RAW.

In a sense, the couatl only gets to cheat on the hands thing in its natural form because that is how it is most familiar with the manipulation and the magical energies. Once it changes into a humanoid, everything is foreign and the use of the hands is now the most intuitive way that the couatl can use. That might have been their rationale (who can say?).

Surrogate Spellcasting is the feat I was referring to; it seems to mainly focus on verbal and somatic components, but does say "you can use any material component or focus that you can hold." Which doesn't necessarily mean hands, since it doesn't say so and the game is very ambiguous about what a creature can hold/equip and what is merely in its possession.

The problem with Surrogate Spellcasting is that it only works when you meet the requisite "nonhumanoid or non-humanlike" form. Some DMs will rule this unavailable for humanoids, others will say it is unusable except when in forms that meet that requirement. Thus it may or may not be usable based on how your DM treats this matter.