Batman's ultra fanboys are making me sick of Batman

[Jeivar]

And it makes me sad, because I feel Batman can be a great character. But he has been so grossly exaggerated in order to fit in stories out of his element.

Batman is a character designed for a certain kind of story: Gritty battles against street crime and colourful lunatics in the big city underworld. He fits that setting and so do his abilities. His CANON abilities, that is. But I keep seeing his internet fans insist Batman is the Ultimate Being who can never fail and is guaranteed victory with prep time, as he has apparently mastered every scientific skill and martial art in the world (in what, ten years or so?).

Tintin would not fit in a Robocop story. Conan the Barbarian would be grossly out of place in a Hercule Poirot mystery (though it would be funny). Making Batman relevant around actual superpowered characters (as something other than a strategist or detective) is doing everyone else a disservice. Batman does not canonically project a nerf-field powered by coolness. He does not canonically possess superhuman strength that makes his fists hit harder than rockets. Yet here he is effortlessly beating up Aquaman (http://i.imgur.com/9UxZC.jpg). He does not canonically possess superhuman durability, yet here he shrugs off a punch from (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQDmKl1HCaU) a creature that can rattle Superman. Instead of, you know, turning to soup. He does not canonically possess Flash-level speed, yet here he switches cups (http://www.comicbookbrain.com/_imagery/_2009_01_06/cup-switching-batman-page.jpg) while the man opposite him blinks. Here he survives a huge stone pillar (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTXnn5PZ7yg) being dropped on him by a superwoman, and then drops sleeping gas grenades. Instead of just walking through it or blowing it away or something, she inhales it, assuming it's regular smoke, and passes out. Somehow Batman knew she would do just that.

How about just accepting that Batman has limits? Isn't that what makes him cool? That he's a human being who puts his life on the line waging a one-man war on crime using only physical conditioning and some tech? There ARE limits to what willpower and training can do. No amount of willpower or training will let me punch out an elephant or shrug off a wrecking ball.

I just can't think of any other fictional character who gets this treatment. Spider-Man has always been my favourite superhero but I'll acknowledge in a heartbeat that he wouldn't stand a chance against Superman. And speaking of Spider-Man, the comment section for his Death Battle with Batman (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8K1m6SCRz4) consists largely of outrage that Batman lost, even though the reasons for it are explained in the video.

Why the fanaticism and downright anger when someone challenges the BatGod mythos? I have wondered if this stems from general ignorance about characters other than Batman: In one Batman vs Spider-Man thread someone posted "They're about equal physically, so Batman's skills seal it". No. They are not even close to being physically equal. Working out real hard doesn't let you lift 10-20 tons. This video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8w6khbl-uXw), where Batman tells Wonder Woman they can't be together because his enemies would want to get at him through her, someone commented about how Joker would rape and kill WW.

Er, no.

This just does every character who isn't Batman a disservice, and actually Batman as well. It raises the question why he's fighting JL-level villains on Monday and on Tuesday he has his hands full with a little fat guy with a trick umbrella and a disfigured lawyer. The most common criticism of Superman is that he's overpowered, but this BatGod stuff turns the Badass Normal of the DC Universe into the most overpowered character in comics. If the resolution of every possible situation is "Batman pulls out a pre-prepared gadget and wins", then he's just boring. And I don't want Batman to be boring.


And yes, I am aware that he calls himself Batman, and that God has apparently damned him.

[The Glyphstone]

I'm just going to point out that all your links are in fact, canon non-fan art examples of Batman doing the ridiculously OP stuff you are complaining about. So your problem is not with the fanboys, your problem is with the writers/animators...the fanboys are right.

Addendum: Not that this is a good thing. You're right, it is boring as heck. But your anger is misplaced or at least misdirected, because they're just parroting what the creators of the character tell and show them.

[Zmeoaice]

Batman can beat anyone with prestige no matter how powerful he is? You know why?


BECAUSE HE'S BAAAATMAAAAAANNNNN!!!!!!

[Devonix]

Actually that Aquaman fight I believe was from when everyone lost their powers from some random " act of god "

[Pronounceable]

Just because a fanboy is officially sanctioned by DC and allowed to write/draw "canon*" Batman stories doesn't mean he magically becomes a reasonable artist. You shouldn't let silly fanboys ruin your entertainment, be they idiots on the internet or guys whose names are on printed issues.


*There's no such thing as "canon". Only the things you like are canon.

[BannedInSchool]

Maybe just pretend that Batman is fiction.

:smallbiggrin:

[Devonix]

Maybe just pretend that Batman is fiction.

:smallbiggrin:

Yes but when they explicitly have him do things they say he can't ir shouldn't that's bad writing

[BRC]

Eh, I think Batman has a place in JL-level stuff, it's just not on the front lines punching things, not unless you want to go with Batman The Brave And The Bold levels of Camp and silliness.

Basically, if it can stagger Superman, it should take out Batman in one hit. If it can stay up after a punch from Superman, Batman shouldn't be able to hurt it in hand-to-hand.

That said, when things need to be punched, you bring Superman and Wonder Woman. But it's easy to keep Batman in the melee, just remember a few things

1) Batman is Smart. If something is giving Superman trouble, he's not going to try to punch it. He's going to pick his battles.
2) Batman is fast. You're standard SuperStrength Bruiser isn't much faster than an ordinary Human. Even if Batman can't hurt it, he can dodge it and keep it busy until Supes or another heavy-hitter can handle it.
3) Batman is stealthy. This means that he can fade away when need be and pick his targets.

So, basically, don't show Batman trading blows with things that give Superman trouble, and don't pretend like his batarangs are going to be anything but annoying.

And, IIRC, writers are usually decent about doing this, which is where I think some of the BatGod worship comes from.

We don't see Batman lose many hand-to-hand fights, despite the overwhelming power of some of his foes. This is not because Batman is the best hand-to-hand fighter in the world, it's because Batman is smart enough to only engage hand-to-hand when he can win. When he can't, he cheats.
Example: In Hush, Batman gets into a fight with Killer Croc, who isn't exactly a heavy hitter as far as DC villains go, but is certainly stronger and tougher than Batman. Batman takes one punch, dodges, gets in a few hits that only seem to piss Croc off, and then disables him with hypersonics.

So, with the Batman vs Spiderman situation, the answer is not "Batman would win because he's the best at fighting", it would be "Batman might win, and would definitely try to find some way to cheat".

But, the BatFans like to forget this. They don't see Batman taking on a superior foe and winning by exploiting a known weakness, only using his physical skills to set up a non-physical victory (Using the hypersonics). They see Batman punching out Killer Croc, and add that to the scorecard. Batman picks his battles, which is why we almost never see Batman lose, so people assume he can beat anything.

Which is where we get to the second part of the BatGod, "Given sufficient time to prepare, Batman can beat anything".

Which isn't true. Given sufficient time to prepare, assuming the foe has an exploitable weakness, assuming Batman is capable of exploiting that weakness, assuming that weakness is severe enough to overcome the difference in physical capabilities, Batman can win.

Which is basically another way of saying "Batman can beat anything, Assuming he's given everything he needs to beat them".

Which is why Batman can fight Superman, but has trouble with Two-Face. Not because Two-Face is more powerful than Superman, but because he does not have an easily exploitable weakness.

It's like this.

Luke Skywalker blew up the Death Star.

The Death star is more powerful than a Star Destroyer.

Does it follow that Luke Skywalker, in an x-wing, could reliably blow up a star-destroyer?

No, not unless the Star Destroyer has a small thermal exhaust port leading to the main reactor that the Empire does not realize is a vulnerability, and Luke knows exactly where it is, and has a rebel fleet covering his approach.

Batman does not win because he's the best, he's just good at finding Exhaust Ports, and lucky enough that they always exist when he needs them.

[Flickerdart]

Which is why Batman can fight Superman, but has trouble with Two-Face. Not because Two-Face is more powerful than Superman, but because he does not have an easily exploitable weakness.
Two-Face has an easily exploitable weakness, too - anything, because he's just a guy with a messed-up face.

This, to me, is a bigger problem than Batman kicking butt - his villains are hyper-inflated as threats. Batman fights alongside the Justice League because they trust his strategic mind. Whenever Joker shows up in a villain team-up it's always stupid, because he gets boosted to Luthor levels of resourcefulness.

[Zmeoaice]

A lot of Batman's non-powered foes usually utilize death traps, hostage situations, and other stuff. He can't just rely on force.

Two-face also has a pretty lame weakness, just throw a bunch of coins at him when he flips.

[BRC]

A lot of Batman's non-powered foes usually utilize death traps, hostage situations, and other stuff. He can't just rely on force.

Yeah.

Batman Stories rarely draw tension from "Can Batman beat the villain up", because the answer is usually "Yes, yes he can".
The story is usually more about "Can Batman stop their scheme without severe consequences". "Can Batman find where the Villain is hiding before it's too late".
This is why Batman's iconic foe is the Joker. Batman vs Joker fights are just a formality. By the time Batman is actually punching the Joker, he's already won. The tension is about "Can Batman stop the Joker's scheme before he does too much damage".
And because the Joker is one of the few villains who will have "Cause a lot of damage" as the GOAL of their scheme, rather than just a method, that tension is a lot higher. If, say, Bane is planting bombs around Gotham, they need to explain why he's doing it. If the Joker is planting bombs, he's doing it so that a bunch of Bombs will explode around Gotham.

Edit: Which is another problem with transferring this to JL level-threats.

In a Batman story, Batman wins when he gets to punch the villain, because the Villain is usually just a human with an obsession.

But when he's fighting a Superpowered Space-Wizard, or something, the same pattern doesn't apply. So, having Batman say "I've foiled your scheme Space Wizard', and then punch him, leads to the BatGod scenario.

No, Batman should say "I have figured out your scheme Space Wizard (Based on what Doctor Fate told me about Space Magic). And I told Green Lantern how to stop it. And now Superman is going to punch you".

[Lord Raziere]

And it makes me sad, because I feel Batman can be a great character. But he has been so grossly exaggerated in order to fit in stories out of his element.

Batman is a character designed for a certain kind of story: Gritty battles against street crime and colourful lunatics in the big city underworld. He fits that setting and so do his abilities. His CANON abilities, that is. But I keep seeing his internet fans insist Batman is the Ultimate Being who can never fail and is guaranteed victory with prep time, as he has apparently mastered every scientific skill and martial art in the world (in what, ten years or so?).

Tintin would not fit in a Robocop story. Conan the Barbarian would be grossly out of place in a Hercule Poirot mystery (though it would be funny). Making Batman relevant around actual superpowered characters (as something other than a strategist or detective) is doing everyone else a disservice. Batman does not canonically project a nerf-field powered by coolness. He does not canonically possess superhuman strength that makes his fists hit harder than rockets. Yet here he is effortlessly beating up Aquaman (http://i.imgur.com/9UxZC.jpg). He does not canonically possess superhuman durability, yet here he shrugs off a punch from (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQDmKl1HCaU) a creature that can rattle Superman. Instead of, you know, turning to soup. He does not canonically possess Flash-level speed, yet here he switches cups (http://www.comicbookbrain.com/_imagery/_2009_01_06/cup-switching-batman-page.jpg) while the man opposite him blinks. Here he survives a huge stone pillar (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTXnn5PZ7yg) being dropped on him by a superwoman, and then drops sleeping gas grenades. Instead of just walking through it or blowing it away or something, she inhales it, assuming it's regular smoke, and passes out. Somehow Batman knew she would do just that.

How about just accepting that Batman has limits? Isn't that what makes him cool? That he's a human being who puts his life on the line waging a one-man war on crime using only physical conditioning and some tech? There ARE limits to what willpower and training can do. No amount of willpower or training will let me punch out an elephant or shrug off a wrecking ball.

I just can't think of any other fictional character who gets this treatment. Spider-Man has always been my favourite superhero but I'll acknowledge in a heartbeat that he wouldn't stand a chance against Superman. And speaking of Spider-Man, the comment section for his Death Battle with Batman (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8K1m6SCRz4) consists largely of outrage that Batman lost, even though the reasons for it are explained in the video.

Why the fanaticism and downright anger when someone challenges the BatGod mythos? I have wondered if this stems from general ignorance about characters other than Batman: In one Batman vs Spider-Man thread someone posted "They're about equal physically, so Batman's skills seal it". No. They are not even close to being physically equal. Working out real hard doesn't let you lift 10-20 tons. This video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8w6khbl-uXw), where Batman tells Wonder Woman they can't be together because his enemies would want to get at him through her, someone commented about how Joker would rape and kill WW.

Er, no.

This just does every character who isn't Batman a disservice, and actually Batman as well. It raises the question why he's fighting JL-level villains on Monday and on Tuesday he has his hands full with a little fat guy with a trick umbrella and a disfigured lawyer. The most common criticism of Superman is that he's overpowered, but this BatGod stuff turns the Badass Normal of the DC Universe into the most overpowered character in comics. If the resolution of every possible situation is "Batman pulls out a pre-prepared gadget and wins", then he's just boring. And I don't want Batman to be boring.


And yes, I am aware that he calls himself Batman, and that God has apparently damned him.

Quoted For Truth.

I have been saying this for a while now man. I've watched all three great Batman shows and I don't consider him Bat-God. sure, he is a good character but the way his fans treat him make me dislike him by default, because it promotes an attitude that the only worthwhile power having is none at all. which is a big disservice to the entire superhero genre where the entire point is having super-powers and saving the day with them.

that and nerds tend to have a flexibility bias. just because a character can potentially pull out the right solution doesn't mean they will or that solution will be enough. Xykon said it best:
"In any battle there is a level of force that no amount of tactics will be able to overcome." and Batman being a normal guy, has a lot of tactics, but is very lacking in the force department.

give me a guy who has to creatively save the day using limited themed powers than a hyper-prepared equipment god any day. and give me actual gritty street fighter who knows he can't take on freaking gods and such because he is too smart to think he can pull off that kind of bull and instead leaves it to people who are actually supposed to do that. :smallsigh:

[Jeivar]

I'm just going to point out that all your links are in fact, canon non-fan art examples of Batman doing the ridiculously OP stuff you are complaining about. So your problem is not with the fanboys, your problem is with the writers/animators...the fanboys are right.

Addendum: Not that this is a good thing. You're right, it is boring as heck. But your anger is misplaced or at least misdirected, because they're just parroting what the creators of the character tell and show them.

My point is that fanboyism has slipped into the official writing. Writers should be fans of the characters they handle, not fanboys.


Batman can beat anyone with prestige no matter how powerful he is? You know why?


BECAUSE HE'S BAAAATMAAAAAANNNNN!!!!!!

I knew this would come as surely as I know the tide will come in.


Maybe just pretend that Batman is fiction.

:smallbiggrin:

Well, you may have just won this thread. :smallsmile:


Eh, I think Batman has a place in JL-level stuff, it's just not on the front lines punching things, not unless you want to go with Batman The Brave And The Bold levels of Camp and silliness.

Basically, if it can stagger Superman, it should take out Batman in one hit. If it can stay up after a punch from Superman, Batman shouldn't be able to hurt it in hand-to-hand.

That said, when things need to be punched, you bring Superman and Wonder Woman. But it's easy to keep Batman in the melee, just remember a few things

1) Batman is Smart. If something is giving Superman trouble, he's not going to try to punch it. He's going to pick his battles.
2) Batman is fast. You're standard SuperStrength Bruiser isn't much faster than an ordinary Human. Even if Batman can't hurt it, he can dodge it and keep it busy until Supes or another heavy-hitter can handle it.
3) Batman is stealthy. This means that he can fade away when need be and pick his targets.

So, basically, don't show Batman trading blows with things that give Superman trouble, and don't pretend like his batarangs are going to be anything but annoying.

And, IIRC, writers are usually decent about doing this, which is where I think some of the BatGod worship comes from.

We don't see Batman lose many hand-to-hand fights, despite the overwhelming power of some of his foes. This is not because Batman is the best hand-to-hand fighter in the world, it's because Batman is smart enough to only engage hand-to-hand when he can win. When he can't, he cheats.
Example: In Hush, Batman gets into a fight with Killer Croc, who isn't exactly a heavy hitter as far as DC villains go, but is certainly stronger and tougher than Batman. Batman takes one punch, dodges, gets in a few hits that only seem to piss Croc off, and then disables him with hypersonics.

So, with the Batman vs Spiderman situation, the answer is not "Batman would win because he's the best at fighting", it would be "Batman might win, and would definitely try to find some way to cheat".

But, the BatFans like to forget this. They don't see Batman taking on a superior foe and winning by exploiting a known weakness, only using his physical skills to set up a non-physical victory (Using the hypersonics). They see Batman punching out Killer Croc, and add that to the scorecard. Batman picks his battles, which is why we almost never see Batman lose, so people assume he can beat anything.

Which is where we get to the second part of the BatGod, "Given sufficient time to prepare, Batman can beat anything".

Which isn't true. Given sufficient time to prepare, assuming the foe has an exploitable weakness, assuming Batman is capable of exploiting that weakness, assuming that weakness is severe enough to overcome the difference in physical capabilities, Batman can win.

Which is basically another way of saying "Batman can beat anything, Assuming he's given everything he needs to beat them".

etc...


This is a very reasoned response.

[TheThan]

To sum up what BRC said, Batman’s superpower is not having super powers.

In order for a "normal" super hero to keep up with super heroes with super powers, they have to have inflated capabilities that make them a match for the other heroes. Otherwise not enough people will buy that comic because oh look he’s just a normal Joe, there’s nothing special about him… booring.
According to Wikipedia, Batman’s non-super, superpowers are:


Genius level intellect
Peak human conditioning
Master of multiple martial arts (including but not limited to judo, jujutsu, karate, kickboxing and ninjutsu)
Knowledge and expertise in nearly every discipline known to man
Inexhaustible wealth giving him access to advanced super tech
Able to resist telepathy and mind control
Function under great physical pain
Master of disguise
Multi-lingual
Expert in espionage
Master of stealth
Master of Escapology
Expert in interrogation techniques


There’s the problem, he doesn’t have a specific set of skills and tools, or a specific set of powers and weaknesses, his skill set is so broad that it can literally be used to solve any problem with little or no effort.

If a bad guy, say, speaks an obscure language, its ok, batman speaks it too (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vbsConsKik). If a bad guy is vulnerable to, say, gamma rays, that’s ok, batman can build a device that fires gamma rays. He’s rich enough to afford to have it built or to get the components to build it himself since he’s clearly super smart enough to know how. If he has to gather information on an enemy, that’s ok he’s an expert interrogator, master of stealth, master of disguise and an expert in espionage.

He’s not limited to a very specific set of powers the way superman is. Superman’s powers for comparison’s sake are clearly defined and his weaknesses are known and well documented. It’s not “he speaks X, Y and Z languages”, it’s “he speaks multiple languages”, or “he is a master of Ninjutsu”, instead its “he’s a master of multiple martial arts”.

This vague broad spectrum list of powers allows batman to combat any threat, any villain and take on enemies that should crush him in an instant. Without giving him some sort of contrived weakness like superman’s weakness to kryptonite. It’s not that he’s capable; it’s that he’s super capable. if we assume that being a human is not a weakness, then batman has no weaknesses.

[Tengu_temp]

I can understand the OP perfectly. Batman's extreme fanboys, who claim he's Teh Best At Everything OMG and can beat anyone with preparation annoy me too. Bonus points if they diss other characters while doing so. Further bonus points if these are promoted fanboys who are writing his comics (hi Frank Miller). And all of this makes me sad because I really like Batman.

My advice: don't let annoying fanboys ruin Batman for you. Everything has annoying fans, so if you let the fandom dictate how you feel about something, you won't like anything. As for the crappy stories, pretend they don't happen. Western comics have very loose continuity anyway.

[Traab]

To sum up what BRC said, Batman’s superpower is not having super powers.

In order for a "normal" super hero to keep up with super heroes with super powers, they have to have inflated capabilities that make them a match for the other heroes. Otherwise not enough people will buy that comic because oh look he’s just a normal Joe, there’s nothing special about him… booring.
According to Wikipedia, Batman’s non-super, superpowers are:


Genius level intellect
Peak human conditioning
Master of multiple martial arts (including but not limited to judo, jujutsu, karate, kickboxing and ninjutsu)
Knowledge and expertise in nearly every discipline known to man
Inexhaustible wealth giving him access to advanced super tech
Able to resist telepathy and mind control
Function under great physical pain
Master of disguise
Multi-lingual
Expert in espionage
Master of stealth
Master of Escapology
Expert in interrogation techniques


There’s the problem, he doesn’t have a specific set of skills and tools, or a specific set of powers and weaknesses, his skill set is so broad that it can literally be used to solve any problem with little or no effort.

If a bad guy, say, speaks an obscure language, its ok, batman speaks it too (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vbsConsKik). If a bad guy is vulnerable to, say, gamma rays, that’s ok, batman can build a device that fires gamma rays. He’s rich enough to afford to have it built or to get the components to build it himself since he’s clearly super smart enough to know how. If he has to gather information on an enemy, that’s ok he’s an expert interrogator, master of stealth, master of disguise and an expert in espionage.

He’s not limited to a very specific set of powers the way superman is. Superman’s powers for comparison’s sake are clearly defined and his weaknesses are known and well documented. It’s not “he speaks X, Y and Z languages”, it’s “he speaks multiple languages”, or “he is a master of Ninjutsu”, instead its “he’s a master of multiple martial arts”.

This vague broad spectrum list of powers allows batman to combat any threat, any villain and take on enemies that should crush him in an instant. Without giving him some sort of contrived weakness like superman’s weakness to kryptonite. It’s not that he’s capable; it’s that he’s super capable. if we assume that being a human is not a weakness, then batman has no weaknesses.

The thing is, I think you are exaggerating the list a bit, the last seven for example, are all the skills a spy/secret agent would be expected to know. And knowing at least one or two martial arts can be added to that list as well. Honestly, its the expertise in virtually anything thats the real annoyance. Its like a resume version of the adam west batmans tool belt. I could see him being at least acquainted with most fields as in, "Yeah, I know what radiology is, its the field of blah blah blah" But not being able to build, power, and use an xray machine at the drop of a dime.

[Kris Strife]

This is why Batman's iconic foe is the Joker. Batman vs Joker fights are just a formality. By the time Batman is actually punching the Joker, he's already won. The tension is about "Can Batman stop the Joker's scheme before he does too much damage".
And because the Joker is one of the few villains who will have "Cause a lot of damage" as the GOAL of their scheme, rather than just a method, that tension is a lot higher. If, say, Bane is planting bombs around Gotham, they need to explain why he's doing it. If the Joker is planting bombs, he's doing it so that a bunch of Bombs will explode around Gotham.

Depending on version, the Joker isn't /beaten/ until Batman arrests him without killing him. There are frequent occasions (Arkham series) where Joker is out to prove he and Batas aren't so different, and everything Joker does is designed to anger Batman enough to kill him.

[BRC]

This vague broad spectrum list of powers allows batman to combat any threat, any villain and take on enemies that should crush him in an instant. Without giving him some sort of contrived weakness like superman’s weakness to kryptonite. It’s not that he’s capable; it’s that he’s super capable. if we assume that being a human is not a weakness, then batman has no weaknesses.

But this is the problem.

Because, while Batman is super-capable, most Justice-League level heroes are hyperfocused at combat.

The problem comes when you see Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman being presented as equals in a melee, which Brings Batman from "Really good" to "EQUAL OF SUPERHUMANS AT WHAT THEY ARE GOOD AT (Punching) AND ALSO BETTER AT EVERYTHING ELSE!"

Hence, the "Bat-God" idea, which can get really annoying.

[TheThan]

Well yeah,
He shouldn’t be able to go toe-to-toe with Darksied and come out on top, but he’s capable of doing it because of his generic list of powers gives the writers a convenient excuse for such nonsense.

[NotVeryBatman]

Batman's best work has always been when he's in pursuit, as a detective. Broken City, Identity Crisis, The Long Halloween. When The Detective-The World's Greatest Detective is punching his way to the top of a conspiracy he's at his best. The Dark Knight shines in those moments.

[Drascin]

I must agree. And this becomes double annoying when they diss other heroes in the same breath for being too powerful while insisting Batman beats anything.

"Superman is boring because he's too powerful and a Mary Sue and always wins". Then literally five seconds later: "Batman can beat anyone with prep time, and he takes out Superman no problem anyway, because he's Batman"
Me: "...do you really not see the problem in those two statements?"

[huttj509]

Obligatory Shortpacked link. (http://www.shortpacked.com/2005/comic/book-1-brings-back-the-80s/06-mrs-greg-killmaster/batmanisgoodateverything/)

[Devonix]

Batman's best work has always been when he's in pursuit, as a detective. Broken City, Identity Crisis, The Long Halloween. When The Detective-The World's Greatest Detective is punching his way to the top of a conspiracy he's at his best. The Dark Knight shines in those moments.

Sure... just don't list Identity Crisis in there.... It's pretty bad.

[SaintRidley]

Basically, if Batman decides to get in a punching contest with a super, this should happen:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B2G59T1CUAAzIZL.png

[Traab]

Basically, if Batman decides to get in a punching contest with a super, this should happen:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B2G59T1CUAAzIZL.png

HMPH! We all know he would activate his electrified bat cowl, knocking her unconscious in the next panel! Why? BECAUSE HE'S BATMAN!

[SaintRidley]

Triggering a muscle spasm that causes Wonder Woman to curbstomp Batty's head into chunky salsa.

[The Glyphstone]

Why has no one linked this yet?

http://www.biggercheese.com/comics/0608.png

[SaintRidley]

Presumably because we've no reason to talk about cheese.

[Hopeless]

My four otherwise irrelevant points regarding this thread are;

1) How would Kevin Conroy react?
2) How would Adam West react?
3) If neither of the above apply use anime instead my preference would be Fairy Tail as it avoids this pointless argument!
4) How would International Rescue handle this since both Bats and Spidey don't go around killing people ergo no Death Battle nonsense admittedly i liked the Vader vs Batman & Superman one (emphasis on that!)

PS: What issue is the Wonder Woman pic from?

[BeerMug Paladin]

Wouldn't this phenomenon potentially happen any time a character franchise lasts long enough for rabid fans to eventually become the writers for an ongoing franchise? That is, favorite characters become invincible and overpowered due to fanfiction forces taking over the canon.

I've heard of people who hate other franchises because of EU material that exists, but the difference with comics seems to be that the stuff lasts so long that there's a generational shift in the writers going on in the primary products.

[Hiro Protagonest]

He does not canonically possess superhuman strength that makes his fists hit harder than rockets.
Well, actually, Bruce's already formidable strength is increased at least ten times (we never get info more concrete than Terry's initial guess) if he's wearing this suit...
http://th00.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/i/2013/333/f/9/___beyond_b____by_wyv1-d6w2tgq.jpg Granted, in most instances he's not.


*There's no such thing as "canon". Only the things you like are canon.

No, there's an official canon. Well, maybe not for comicbooks since there's too many authors. That doesn't stop me from making headcanon, but it's there.

[SaintRidley]

PS: What issue is the Wonder Woman pic from?

The Hiketeia. It's a beautiful book. Prices look steep on Amazon right now, but I'd look into it. Cover's her boot on Batman's head, so you can't miss it if you check your comic shop. It's a one-shot piece not a collection of regular issues.

[Starwulf]

where Batman tells Wonder Woman they can't be together because his enemies would want to get at him through her, someone commented about how Joker would rape and kill WW.

Er, no.


So, I agree a lot with the OP, anytime I see Batman discussed nowadays, especially in versus threads, it almost always ends up going in favor of Batman, because "He's Batman! He has contingency plans for literally everything, he can't be stopped!" and I definitely feel that's complete BS. I did not however, know about the specific part of the OP that I've quoted. He seriously told Wonder Woman that he couldn't date her because his enemies would use her to get to him? Seriously? WW is about 100x stronger then Batman, I can't imagine any scenario where it wouldn't actually be the other way around. When did this happen, and what in the world was the actual reasoning behind this?

[Jeivar]

So, I agree a lot with the OP, anytime I see Batman discussed nowadays, especially in versus threads, it almost always ends up going in favor of Batman, because "He's Batman! He has contingency plans for literally everything, he can't be stopped!" and I definitely feel that's complete BS. I did not however, know about the specific part of the OP that I've quoted. He seriously told Wonder Woman that he couldn't date her because his enemies would use her to get to him? Seriously? WW is about 100x stronger then Batman, I can't imagine any scenario where it wouldn't actually be the other way around. When did this happen, and what in the world was the actual reasoning behind this?

I posted a link. It was in the Justice League cartoon.

And now I'm picturing Batman tied to a railroad track by Cheetah as Wonder Woman fights to save him. :smallsmile:

"Well this is emasculating."

[Killer Angel]

Further bonus points if these are promoted fanboys who are writing his comics (hi Frank Miller).

At least, in Dark Knight Returns, the confrontation between Batman and Superman was realistic. Then ther was DK2, and other nonsenses...


And all of this makes me sad because I really like Batman.

+1 :smallsigh:

[Lurkmoar]

At least, in Dark Knight Returns, the confrontation between Batman and Superman was realistic. Then ther was DK2, and other nonsenses...

If I remember correctly, Batman had a powered armor suit, was plugged directly into Gotham's power grid and had Green Arrow shoot a kryptonite arrow at Superman, and Superman STILL stomped Batman enough to make Batman faking his death look believable.

The conditions didn't favor Superman either, he had just recovered from tanking a nuclear missile and was cut off from direct sunlight.

[Jeivar]

If I remember correctly, Batman had a powered armor suit, was plugged directly into Gotham's power grid and had Green Arrow shoot a kryptonite arrow at Superman, and Superman STILL stomped Batman enough to make Batman faking his death look believable.

The conditions didn't favor Superman either, he had just recovered from tanking a nuclear missile and was cut off from direct sunlight.

AND Superman was holding back because he didn't want to fight.

[Mato]

Random interjection of something I found humorous before.

If Batman's bat belt contained everything Batman needs, why doesn't it contain his parents?

[Cheesegear]

During Hush, Batman beats up Superman with Lex Luthor's old Kryptonite Ring, that Batman does have just for the exact purpose if Supes ever falls under mind control or goes bad - like he does. Batman does have a Kryptonite Ring (at least before New 52), and we've seen it quite a few times on his hand. Batman can beat up Superman, because Supes specifically, actually gave him the one weapon that could hurt him.
(Pre-New 52, that is)

[Devonix]

During Hush, Batman beats up Superman with Lex Luthor's old Kryptonite Ring, that Batman does have just for the exact purpose if Supes ever falls under mind control or goes bad - like he does. Batman does have a Kryptonite Ring (at least before New 52), and we've seen it quite a few times on his hand. Batman can beat up Superman, because Supes specifically, actually gave him the one weapon that could hurt him.
(Pre-New 52, that is)

You mean the ring that isn't Batman's It's Superman's ring, he just gave it to Batman to keep ahold of for cases like this. And also Superman was fighting Batman while resisting mind control. Batman in no way harmed him during that fight and was only able to win by snapping Supes out of the mind control.

Superman was in no danger during that fight, while Batman almost broke his arm.

[Traab]

So, I agree a lot with the OP, anytime I see Batman discussed nowadays, especially in versus threads, it almost always ends up going in favor of Batman, because "He's Batman! He has contingency plans for literally everything, he can't be stopped!" and I definitely feel that's complete BS. I did not however, know about the specific part of the OP that I've quoted. He seriously told Wonder Woman that he couldn't date her because his enemies would use her to get to him? Seriously? WW is about 100x stronger then Batman, I can't imagine any scenario where it wouldn't actually be the other way around. When did this happen, and what in the world was the actual reasoning behind this?

You gotta keep in mind that baman has serious mental issues. He had his parents murdered in front of him, didnt alfred die of macgreggors syndrome or some such thing? Lets not forget the times various robins have been killed or screwed with, and of course batgirl. Dude is paranoid as HELL of losing anyone he comes to care about, and considering his history, thats understandable. I may be mixing multiple continuities, cartoons and movies, but thats just my outlook on things. Yeah he is an idiot for thinking that about wonder woman since she could be locked in a cage with his entire rogues gallery and her arms tied behind her back and stomp her way to freedom over the bleeding carcasses of the entire set of bad guys, but he has suffered enough loss over the years that being utterly paranoid about it happening again is understandable.

[Killer Angel]

If I remember correctly, Batman had a powered armor suit, was plugged directly into Gotham's power grid and had Green Arrow shoot a kryptonite arrow at Superman, and Superman STILL stomped Batman enough to make Batman faking his death look believable.

The conditions didn't favor Superman either, he had just recovered from tanking a nuclear missile and was cut off from direct sunlight.


AND Superman was holding back because he didn't want to fight.

All of this is exact, and that's way the fight it was credible.
Batman linked with Gotham's grid and acid in Supes' eyes, only to distract him a little, to give a chances to GA for a direct shoot. And Superman won anyway (as expected).

[Devonix]

All of this is exact, and that's way the fight it was credible.
Batman linked with Gotham's grid and acid in Supes' eyes, only to distract him a little, to give a chances to GA for a direct shoot. And Superman won anyway (as expected).

Superman did more than hold back in that fight too. He actually stopped fighting several times during it to let batman catch his breath and give him another chance to surrender.

[Giggling Ghast]

Note: Doomsday could not be killed with a spear thrust. Those were weak Doomsday clones.

[Traab]

Note: Doomsday could not be killed with a spear thrust. Those were weak Doomsday clones.

Yeah, considering just one was able to beat superman to death in a draw, I figured an entire army being obliterated meant they were way weaker than normal.

[Jeivar]

Note: Doomsday could not be killed with a spear thrust. Those were weak Doomsday clones.

But one still rattled Superman, and did Batman just ignored a swipe.

[Anteros]

All of this is exact, and that's way the fight it was credible.
Batman linked with Gotham's grid and acid in Supes' eyes, only to distract him a little, to give a chances to GA for a direct shoot. And Superman won anyway (as expected).

Everyone always says this. Superman didn't "win" anyway. Batman wasn't trying to beat him. He has Supes on the ground and stated he could have easily killed him with a more powerful dose of the kryptonite. He willfully used a weaker dosage than necessary to incapacitate Superman because it was never his intention to "win" the fight. They're both holding back.

This is explicitly stated in the comic.


He does take out Supes, (as well as the rest of the league) in the more recent Endgame comics, and it's just as ridiculous as you'd expect. Kryptonite gum? Really, that's the best writing they could come up with?

[Killer Angel]

Everyone always says this. Superman didn't "win" anyway. Batman wasn't trying to beat him.

Well, Batman's real objective was to fake his death, so he needed such a fight.


He has Supes on the ground and stated he could have easily killed him with a more powerful dose of the kryptonite.

But at that point it wasn't Batman, it was Kryptonite. A sfficiently big quantity and even I could beat superman, but this only means that K is just an "I win" button.



He does take out Supes, (as well as the rest of the league) in the more recent Endgame comics, and it's just as ridiculous as you'd expect. Kryptonite gum? Really, that's the best writing they could come up with?

not sure if I should facepalm, or headdesk...

[BWR]

But at that point it wasn't Batman, it was Kryptonite. A sfficiently big quantity and even I could beat superman, but this only means that K is just an "I win" button.

Might as well say people don't kill people, bullets/tanks/bombs/swords do. Since Batman planned the whole thing, created the kryptonite, got everything together and correctly deduced Supes general actions and beat him, I'm calling it Batman's win. If S had been in better shape, if he hadn't been pulling his punches, if a whole bunch of other things had/hadn't been the case, Supes would have easily won. As it was, Batman correctly guessed how his old friend would act and used that knowledge to his advantage and won.

[Bulldog Psion]

Might as well say people don't kill people, bullets/tanks/bombs/swords do. Since Batman planned the whole thing, created the kryptonite, got everything together and correctly deduced Supes general actions and beat him, I'm calling it Batman's win. If S had been in better shape, if he hadn't been pulling his punches, if a whole bunch of other things had/hadn't been the case, Supes would have easily won. As it was, Batman correctly guessed how his old friend would act and used that knowledge to his advantage and won.

For whatever reason, this reminded me of --

"What is steel compared to the hand that wields it?" :smallwink:

[Metahuman1]

Regards to dating wonder woman: He's not interested, he's trying to find an out. So sue the guy for not being perfect while criticizing him for being to perfect.

As an aside, regards to that comment about locking her in a cage with his entire rogues gallery and her arms tied behind her back. That only ends that way if it's a Post Crisis on Infinite earths Wonder Woman. A version from before that point LITERALLY had villainous arm grab as her canonical weakness for 50 years or so. (Come to think of it was that comic form that time period or was it post crisis on infinite earths?)

There's also the logic he used in the JLU cartoon: "Your a princess form a mythical warrior race, I'm a playboy. And Dating within the team Always leads to problems." Which, isn't a half bad point actually.


Also, for all the batman fanboys, he's lost matches in terms of just straight up martial arts to both Black Canary and Wonder Woman. And both with there powers turned off. The former cause she's just that much of a prodigy as a martial artist, the latter cause thousands of years of being tutored by gods and demi-gods in numerous forms of martial arts is just that hard to beat.

Now, yes, he does have contingency plans to take down, and if it came to it, take out, every member of the league, in case any of them or all of them ever went rogue. And a good chunk of the league including Superman are OK with this, cause, hey, possession's, mind control evil clones, evil alternate universe versions of themselves these are facts of life for these people. As is the possibility that one day they may just snap or loose there connection to humans that aren't powerful enough to go toe to toe with space gods. He's also got a contingency plan in case He's the one who goes Rogue. The plan is The Justice League will take HIM down, or, if necessary, out. (And far as I know that's another of his reasons why he doesn't want to date Wonder Woman. He knows that if it ever came to it, she'd be the one mostly likely to kill him if that ended up being what it was gonna take, and that that is a possibility that needs to be planned for. He doesn't want to make that harder or worse for her by being too involved.)




Regards to beating Aquaman: Wasn't that from Doug Monic's (I think I spelled his name wrong.) Justice League: Act Of God? If so that was a god awful elseworlds story that was never canon and should be disregarded out of hand. (Guy also did a comic called Sci-Spy that had similar themes.).

And while the first Miller superman vs. batman fight was credible, Every engagement after that tends to be a crock. Sorta like how Deathstrokes first fight with The Titans was credible, but the one in Identity Crisis (Another storyline were Batman got taken out first by deathstroke and then we found out he got mind raped by Zatana in the past incidentally.) that was clearly inspired by it was junk. (It's also worth noting that this was still a Silver Age inspired superman. I.E. makes up powers out of thin air. I know this cause when he came an inch from dieing a few pages before hand in that book, he made up a power to draw solar energy that had been absorbed by plant life in ordered to recharge enough to heal from taking a nuke to the face and then being pierced by lighting. )



Regards to batman in Vs threads: There vs. threads, there insane by default. These are the same threads that when Superman comes up go straight for Silver Age superman a lot of the time. The same ones that think AoT Titans can't be killed by modern weaponry at all. The same one's that have decided the likes of Goku and Naruto were invincible for the longest time. Don't take it too seriously.




And as far as taking on Justice League level threats, I'd like to point out it wasn't the Joker that finally killed Bruce Wayne. It was Darksied, cause he tried to take him on face to face and it backfired. Even the Batman: The Brave and the Bold version lost fights against sufficiently powerful opponents like Darksied and Equinox and yes, Silver Age Styled Lex Luthor (On the grounds that Luthor fights silver age superman constantly as a credible threat, there for he'd be able to over power Batman.). And that was the version that said "Screw it, let's just have fun and just embrace the insanity of a setting were he can answer his com with "Can't Talk! Skying Ninja's With Laser Weapons!" and that's actually a thing and not even that weird a thing to boot.

[NotVeryBatman]

Sure... just don't list Identity Crisis in there.... It's pretty bad.

Fair point, the only thing I liked about it was the Bat, in the dark, having put it all together.

[Killer Angel]

Might as well say people don't kill people, bullets/tanks/bombs/swords do. Since Batman planned the whole thing, created the kryptonite, got everything together and correctly deduced Supes general actions and beat him, I'm calling it Batman's win

oh, yes, Bat created some K, and it costed him a lot of money. But unless you pretend that Bat planned also the whole nuclear missile thing, I would say that Bat simply won a lucky gamble.
the outcome of the fight was highly uncertain

[Metahuman1]

He also had a pretty darn good read on Superman's usual tactics. Uses X-Ray Vision? Have missiles rigged to go off when bathed in X-rays. And use that to test his speed. If he's not in top form, he get's blasted. Soon as he lands, have the batmobile fire a shot that could sink a battle ship into him from off sides.

Meanwhile, keep powering up the suit, and then use it to channel Gothems entire electrical grid into him after using it to power a super high frequency sound gun into his face and exploit that super hearing, all while supes is trying to negotiate a stand down.

Then a brawl in the power armor, counting on the fact that supermans ears are now shot, he's worn him down some, and supes is trying not to kill him and keeps trying to get him to surrender, culminating in letting Olly hit Supes with a kryptonight arrow. And then,

"I want you to remember Clark. For all the years to come. In your most privet moments. I want you to remember, my hand, at your throat. I want you to remember, the one man who beat you."

Course, he held him in that position for a matter of seconds as he spoke this, then his heart gave out and he flatlined, but hey, he could have finished him off instead of giving a speech. He just didn't want to cause that was never his goal or is intention.

[Hiro Protagonest]

He has Supes on the ground and stated he could have easily killed him with a more powerful dose of the kryptonite.

Well, killing someone is not a win for Batman...

Granted, if his goal was to fake his death he still succeeded, but still.

[Traab]

He also had a pretty darn good read on Superman's usual tactics. Uses X-Ray Vision? Have missiles rigged to go off when bathed in X-rays. And use that to test his speed. If he's not in top form, he get's blasted. Soon as he lands, have the batmobile fire a shot that could sink a battle ship into him from off sides.

Meanwhile, keep powering up the suit, and then use it to channel Gothems entire electrical grid into him after using it to power a super high frequency sound gun into his face and exploit that super hearing, all while supes is trying to negotiate a stand down.

Then a brawl in the power armor, counting on the fact that supermans ears are now shot, he's worn him down some, and supes is trying not to kill him and keeps trying to get him to surrender, culminating in letting Olly hit Supes with a kryptonight arrow. And then,

"I want you to remember Clark. For all the years to come. In your most privet moments. I want you to remember, my hand, at your throat. I want you to remember, the one man who beat you."

Course, he held him in that position for a matter of seconds as he spoke this, then his heart gave out and he flatlined, but hey, he could have finished him off instead of giving a speech. He just didn't want to cause that was never his goal or is intention.

So flat out the only reason he actually won was because superman didnt want to fight him in the first place? Thats not a very good winning strategy. Not too mention it took olivers help to beat him as well, so that "one man" garbage is pretty much exactly that. What the hell was his strategy for if superman went evil?! You know, as in, he isnt interested in holding back?

[Devonix]

So flat out the only reason he actually won was because superman didnt want to fight him in the first place? Thats not a very good winning strategy. Not too mention it took olivers help to beat him as well, so that "one man" garbage is pretty much exactly that. What the hell was his strategy for if superman went evil?! You know, as in, he isnt interested in holding back?

The whole fight was a team effort. And even then supes knew that bruce faked the heart attack. He let him go anyway

[Psyren]

OP, thanks for this thread - this is the main reason I can't root for batman anymore and it's a problem I have with DC Comics in general. As I said in another thread, it's not that Marvel doesn't also have cosmic, "ni-power-level" hitters in the brains, brawn, speed etc. department - but DC has so many of them front and center that you have to contrive all kinds of silly reasons for them to lose.

Take batman for instance - even with all the cosmic badassery he's doing in the OP's links, you just know next week Bane is still going to knock him around or Joker is going to escape again AND knock him around AND kill a bunch of innocent people before getting locked away again for awhile, and the cycle repeats.


Random interjection of something I found humorous before.

If Batman's bat belt contained everything Batman needs, why doesn't it contain his parents?

Because he doesn't need them, QED :smallbiggrin:

I do find the quip amusing though.

[Cheesegear]

Joker is going to escape again...

That's a flaw of the prison system, not Batman's. Batman is a glorified cop. His job is to put bad guys in prison. His job is not keeping them there - that's someone else's job.

Which begs the question, why not have a publicly known superhuman as the warden for Arkham? I know, I know. If you have someone actually competent running Arkham, there'd be a distinct lack of stories to tell. Still, at some point, somebody from the government has to step up and say "Uhh...Arkham, what's the deal with your inmates escaping all the time?"

Does Mal Duncan/Guardian exist in New 52? ...Not that I've seen, but still. Make him head security guard at Arkham, and make him best friends with Batman.

[Anteros]

So flat out the only reason he actually won was because superman didnt want to fight him in the first place? Thats not a very good winning strategy. Not too mention it took olivers help to beat him as well, so that "one man" garbage is pretty much exactly that. What the hell was his strategy for if superman went evil?! You know, as in, he isnt interested in holding back?

Yes, and equally flat out, the only reason Superman didn't die in that fight is because Batman explicitly didn't want to hurt him either. People always ignore that half of the dynamic for some reason though.

[Traab]

Bruce Wayne is a philanthropist. Why doesnt he... I dunno... PAY FOR A BETTER ARKHAM?! The dude has so much money he can build a space station in secret and hide it in his companies R&D budget. Building a prison capable of holding a bunch of unpowered or barely metahuman criminal psychos shouldnt be that hard.

[Cheesegear]

Bruce Wayne is a philanthropist. Why doesnt he... I dunno... PAY FOR A BETTER ARKHAM?! The dude has so much money he can build a space station in secret and hide it in his companies R&D budget. Building a prison capable of holding a bunch of unpowered or barely metahuman criminal psychos shouldnt be that hard.

But that's not what I'm asking for.
Batman - like Superman - can't be everywhere at once, that's why prisoners can escape. Because there aren't any heroes around to stop them. Theoretically, that would happen regardless of what kind of prison you put them in. Because if Batman is constantly watching Arkham, then he's not watching the streets, or something. It kind of makes sense.

But then New 52 even goes so far as to create Batman Incorporated. I don't know, Bruce. If you're going to start training more and more Batmen, why not train someone specifically to deal with Arkham? That way you can have a Batman - or reasonable facsimile, like all Batman Inc. characters - watching Arkham all the time, instead of nameless mook guards trying to go toe-to-toe with Killer Croc when he decides to go berserk because of whatever power upgrade has been given to him to help him not be a joke...And so Croc keep up with Marvel's Lizard who can break Spider-Man - a hero with legit super-powers - in half.

[Anteros]

Mostly for plot reasons, but also I'd imagine that it would probably be a suicidal job for anyone but Bats himself.

[Traab]

I know it wasnt what you were asking for, im just saying I think it would help. There are so many ways that they could make arkham more secure. Yeah a Super Warden would be one option, but so would modernizing the asylum, and even throwing in various bits of alien and/or magic tech. Neither alone is fool proof, but the more redundancies you add the better.

[Anteros]

He does pour tons of money into things like that, as well as other services to improve Gotham. It's just that nothing ever works because (plot) Gotham is cursed or something.

[The Glyphstone]

Plus, I think various versions of Arkham over the years have been either haunted, cursed, or outright demonically possessed to drive its caretakers and inmates (more) insane, and/or be easily escapeable. It is ultimately a meta-plot explanation, but in-universe it's at least a threadbare explanation for why Arkham can canonically be razed to the ground at least three or four different times pre-Nu52, rebuilt, and still be so easily escapable. Anything you do to beef up its security eventually gets foiled or subverted against you to make the eventual 'inmates have taken over the asylum, Bats needs to go in and punch stuff back in order' story even harder.

[Devonix]

Bruce Wayne is a philanthropist. Why doesnt he... I dunno... PAY FOR A BETTER ARKHAM?! The dude has so much money he can build a space station in secret and hide it in his companies R&D budget. Building a prison capable of holding a bunch of unpowered or barely metahuman criminal psychos shouldnt be that hard.

Anyone have hard numbers on exactly how many times certain people have broken out. I mean I've been reading Batman on and off for almost 20 years and the only time I actually remember The Joker breaking out of Arkham was during the Knightfall story.

And even that was someone else breaking him out and not him doing it himself. I'm thinking that this is more of an exxageration like people saying Jean Grey comes back all the time when she's only Canonically died 2 times in the history of the character.

[Killer Angel]

Yes, and equally flat out, the only reason Superman didn't die in that fight is because Batman explicitly didn't want to hurt him either. People always ignore that half of the dynamic for some reason though.

Superman didn't want to hurt Bat.
Bat didn't want to kill Supes.
But the fact that Bat did have a chance to kill (really?) Superman, was due to Superman holding back in the first place.

With Superman fighting seriously, probably Batman (plus Green Arrow), would never have that chance.


EDIT: even with Krypto, it isn't that easy to kill Superman. Ask Lex Luthor.

[Quild]

While I'm totally OK with Batman losing an arm-wrestling contest against most of JL members, I'm totally ok with Batman being able to defeat anything with enough preparation (shark repellent ftw). He may take one or two beat-up before winning, but still win in the end.

I've seen "Batman VS Robin" this week-end and was actually surprised how a few "talons" could hurt him badly. Damian and **** could also have done better.
Comic is way better anyway.

In "Tower of Babel" (which was adapted in "Justice League: Doom"), Batman has a plan that allows him to defeat each and every Justice League member if needed.

And there is something different in "No Man's Land". At some point Superman wants to help and come to restore a power plant despite Batman's advice that it wouldn't help. Turns out it doesn't. Superman is defeated, he doesn't see how he could help Gotham. His way to do things does not work.
As a farmer (with supernatural abilities), Clark Kent can do better though. Even if I'm no sure about how giving "crops" to Gotham helps better than bringing electricity back. Also at this point Batman had Ivy's help to get some fruits for Gotham.

In Throne of Atlantis (spoilers 'cause quite recent):
Batman also save the day easily. He arrives late, asks Hal for the situation, get Cyborg back on his feets and wins.
At some point he's chasing some of Scarecrow men. Hal helps him and arrests them. That wasn't his intent at all. He wanted to know where the scarecrow was, what his plan was and where the stolen toxin was.
Hal does this kind of mistakes, Batman doesn't.

Against his own ennemies, Batman has an habit to defeat them in their own field of strength. He plays their game. He goes with their rules. I hate that about him how he conforts them in their demencia, how he calls them by their villain's name rather than their true names.
I remember an episode of Batman:TAS where Arnold Wesker goes out of Arkham and seems cured. Batman tests him taking the risk to make Wesker fall again in his demencia. That's bad :(


Also what makes you mad about Batman is only because for the ones with super strength, their power always change depending of who they're facing. Superman manages to give me a fangasm when he goes badass in "Superman VS the Elite". He also can go full power against Doomsday. But otherwise, he's restraining himself or he would destroy anything in one hit. Or with laser ray. Or with breath attack.

[Psyren]

That's a flaw of the prison system, not Batman's. Batman is a glorified cop. His job is to put bad guys in prison. His job is not keeping them there - that's someone else's job.

This is, if you'll forgive the glibness, a cop-out. If Batman knows that regular cops can't handle the Joker, why does he think regular prison guards will do any better?

Batman vows not to kill, yet he should know that every single time he sends Joker to Arkham instead of killing him, innocent people will die. Those deaths are on his hands as surely as if he did nothing to stop a speeding train when he was at the controls.

[Quild]

This is, if you'll forgive the glibness, a cop-out. If Batman knows that regular cops can't handle the Joker, why does he think regular prison guards will do any better?

Batman vows not to kill, yet he should know that every single time he sends Joker to Arkham instead of killing him, innocent people will die. Those deaths are on his hands as surely as if he did nothing to stop a speeding train when he was at the controls.

The Joker and others inmates can escame because a plot needs them to escape. If Batman designs a perfect prison that no one can escape from, then you don't have a Joker anymore. He's been captured once, he's prisonner for ever.
Even Tony Stark and Hank Pym don't manage to create a perfect prison when they try in Marvel's universe. Worse, the entity they creates in that purpose (not sure that's how it works in every version) becomes of villain.

Also about blood on Batman's hand, you may as well say that Joe Chill saved countless lives by killing Thomas and Martha Wayne and thus creating the Batman. Everything Batman did is because of him! That guy is a hero, yay.
In his early years, Batman is considered as a vigilante and disapproved for that. But he only solves crimes and captures criminals, he is not the one judging them. The same as a cop does. A cop is not supposed to kill when he can simply arrest.
Arkham's or Belle Reve's guardians have the same level of responsability than Batman by not murdering in cold blood their prisonners.
Nonsense.

[Devonix]

The Joker and others inmates can escame because a plot needs them to escape. If Batman designs a perfect prison that no one can escape from, then you don't have a Joker anymore. He's been captured once, he's prisonner for ever.
Even Tony Stark and Hank Pym don't manage to create a perfect prison when they try in Marvel's universe. Worse, the entity they creates in that purpose (not sure that's how it works in every version) becomes of villain.

Also about blood on Batman's hand, you may as well say that Joe Chill saved countless lives by killing Thomas and Martha Wayne and thus creating the Batman. Everything Batman did is because of him! That guy is a hero, yay.
In his early years, Batman is considered as a vigilante and disapproved for that. But he only solves crimes and captures criminals, he is not the one judging them. The same as a cop does. A cop is not supposed to kill when he can simply arrest.
Arkham's or Belle Reve's guardians have the same level of responsability than Batman by not murdering in cold blood their prisonners.
Nonsense.


Not just that, if you think that Batman should just kill them what you really should do is blame the legal system for not executing a known mass murderer.

[Psyren]

The Joker and others inmates can escame because a plot needs them to escape. If Batman designs a perfect prison that no one can escape from, then you don't have a Joker anymore. He's been captured once, he's prisonner for ever.
Even Tony Stark and Hank Pym don't manage to create a perfect prison when they try in Marvel's universe. Worse, the entity they creates in that purpose (not sure that's how it works in every version) becomes of villain.

Stark and Pym don't have silly "no killing" codes though. If a villain crosses the line they take him out, or try to. At least then if said villain comes back, they did everything they could.



Also about blood on Batman's hand, you may as well say that Joe Chill saved countless lives by killing Thomas and Martha Wayne and thus creating the Batman. Everything Batman did is because of him! That guy is a hero, yay.

False equivalency. Joe Chill had no way of knowing what Bruce would become. But Batman knows beyond any doubt that Joker is a killer and a psychopath.

[Devonix]

Stark and Pym don't have silly "no killing" codes though. If a villain crosses the line they take him out, or try to. At least then if said villain comes back, they did everything they could.



False equivalency. Joe Chill had no way of knowing what Bruce would become. But Batman knows beyond any doubt that Joker is a killer and a psychopath.

Unlike in the movies ironman doesn't kill all his enemies and puts them in prisons like the raft instead. Otherwise he'd be hunted down like a criminal. Samr as Batmsn woyld be and just like the Punisher is.

Kind of hard to be a hero when half your time is spent dodging the cops

[Quild]

Stark and Pym don't have silly "no killing" codes though. If a villain crosses the line they take him out, or try to. At least then if said villain comes back, they did everything they could.
At some point(s) Pym is even in favor of killing criminals, right. Tony does not have this "no killing code" indeed, but I don't really remember him killing in comics. There is no rule but authors avoid this.
In movies, well... Batman does kill in Burton's movies for instance.

Anyway I was mentionning them for the prison(s) they create that does not work. I don't watch the Flash series anymore, so I don't know if the prison of first episodes is still functional. I doubt no one escaped.


False equivalency. Joe Chill had no way of knowing what Bruce would become. But Batman knows beyond any doubt that Joker is a killer and a psychopath.
Right.
Has Batman ways to know that the Joker will be able to escape and will kill again...? I guess he can expect that with a 99% certainty. However it is not his role to judge and execute and he does have his code.
Would it be better if he decides to drop the cape and cowl and retire?
Doing something does not make you guilty of not doing more when "more" is not legally justified. And probably not morally either but I'm not sure this is a place to talk about this.

[Flickerdart]

Does Green Arrow have the same island-prison that he does in the Arrow TV show? That seems like a much better solution than putting your super-criminals into a crappy asylum right next to the city you're trying to protect from them.

[comicshorse]

Anyway I was mentionning them for the prison(s) they create that does not work. I don't watch the Flash series anymore, so I don't know if the prison of first episodes is still functional. I doubt no one escaped.


It's still functional but yes somebody escaped. Well was let out to help out with something and successfully got way

And yes Glyphstone's right Arkham is haunted/cursed/ demonically possessed. Bruce has paid for a spiffy, high tech Arkham but the curse keeps things rotten and failing


Does Green Arrow have the same island-prison that he does in the Arrow TV show? That seems like a much better solution than putting your super-criminals into a crappy asylum right next to the city you're trying to protect from them.

I'm not that up on NEW 52 DC but he didn't used to, he just handed crooks over to the cops same as everybody else
The cross-over where they exiled super villains to another dimension always seemed the best idea to me but obviously it failed because of plot or the Suicide Squad at least gets some use out of the Villains before they get out and it does kill some of them off

[AGD]

I don't really have the Problems with Batman, that the OP describes. So, he has annoying Fans. Who cares, everyone has, even if Batman has maybe more. There are Canon-Examples, where he is unrealistically OP. Yeah, but every Superhero has stupid moments, that are part of their Canon. We have absolutely no Superhero without bad Comics.

I know much more about Batman, than about Superman and the other Members of the JLA, but I don't dislike them. I like the dynamic between Batman and Superman. Both want to help people. Batmans wants it, because of the pain, that he experienced and he wants to prevent that much other people experience it, while Superman wants it, because of the Love that he experienced through his step-parents and he wants, that other people can be as lucky, as he was. I find, that this is a great contrast, together with the other contrasts of them like Brain and Brawn or Day and Night.

I have nothing against Superheroes with Superpowers, but I like it, when there is a human, that can be in their league with "human" methods. Okay, even Batman is kind of a stretch, because there is no real human, who can all the Things, that Batman can. My Problem with Batmans unrealistically Things, that he did, is more, that the rest of the league is so much above him, that this feets are unrealistically. Why must Superman and Doomsday so strong, that it is completely unrealistic for a human, to survive a punch from Doomsday. Can't Doomsday and Superman just be so strong, that a human would have much more trouble with Doomsday, than Superman. I guess the Problem with that is, that every Hero has their own series and they weren't really designt for a shared series, where they have to work together.

[Kyberwulf]

Fanboys ruin anything.

It's not just Batman.

[SowZ]

Of course, several of the characters Batman has bested is only because those characters are unwilling to kill him in a fight. If Superman, the Flash, or anyone in that caliber, (of which there are several in the DCU,) decided they wanted to just kill Bruce, they could do it. Easily. There would be no time to react and no tech that could withstand beings who laugh at the speed of light. It is manipulating these psychological barriers more than anything that allows Batman to defeat such people. Even defeating horribly powerful villains is more often than not manipulating the big players to do the heavy lifting.

When he defeats villains with the strength to crush meteors the size of Texas via 'super tech,' though, it's just stupid.

[Quild]

I have nothing against Superheroes with Superpowers, but I like it, when there is a human, that can be in their league with "human" methods. Okay, even Batman is kind of a stretch, because there is no real human, who can all the Things, that Batman can. My Problem with Batmans unrealistically Things, that he did, is more, that the rest of the league is so much above him, that this feets are unrealistically. Why must Superman and Doomsday so strong, that it is completely unrealistic for a human, to survive a punch from Doomsday. Can't Doomsday and Superman just be so strong, that a human would have much more trouble with Doomsday, than Superman. I guess the Problem with that is, that every Hero has their own series and they weren't really designt for a shared series, where they have to work together.

Heroes with super strength have multiple examples of how they use their strength to carry or destroy things. They don't use it just to hit each other.

However this strength often varies. Sometimes Superman will have troubles to stop a crashing plane, sometimes he will do it easily and casually.
Sometimes he won't flinch against an hit from someone with supernatural strength, someone a lesser hit will affect him.

[Ravian]

I will say that yes, Batgod does annoy me, mainly because he's not used right. Batman isn't about getting into a fistfight with Doomsday and winning, he's a detective, a smart guy. If you show him fighting people intelligently by exploiting weaknesses previously found in the story, you've made a good batman story, if he pulls a device out of his ass at the last minute, you made a bad batman story, if he punches darkseid to unconsciousness you've made a very bad batman story.

However, I will say that I really don't mind the powershift between his regular rogue's gallery and when he helps the JLA. JLA villains have the issue of being more prone to batgod cop-outs sure, but it's not unbelievable that he can fight both them as well as his own guys credibly, mainly because both Rogue's gallery's have distinctly different focuses. When Batman fights the Riddler, you're not worried that a guy covered in question marks is going to beat Batman, what you're worried about is whether Batman can figure out his riddle before innocents are harmed. Generally for a lot of his rogue's gallery once Batman's discovered their plot, the story's over after a quick beatdown. Heck a good number of his villains don't even really have combat abilities. Two-face is a lawyer with some guns, Penguin has birds and an umbrella but is still a short fat balding man in a suit. Scarecrow has his fear toxins, which can be more useful in combat, but he's still mostly a wimp.

It's actually an interesting dynamic you see with a lot of heroes that are particularly competent, the focus is no longer on whether they can be threatened but if they can stop people from threatening others. (Biggest example I can think of other than batman is in Doctor Who. Everything bad happens when the companion wanders off. Why none of those idiots just stick to the Doctor like glue I'll never know)

Course that does make the exceptions particularly memorable. I think that's one of the reasons I really, really like the Court of Owls, because they managed to establish themselves as a threat dangerous enough that you're actually worried for Batman rather than innocents.

[Killer Angel]

If Batman knows that regular cops can't handle the Joker, why does he think regular prison guards will do any better?


When you deal with super-criminals, no prison is safe. Not even Superman's "Gulag" (see Kingdom Come).

[Psyren]

Unlike in the movies ironman doesn't kill all his enemies and puts them in prisons like the raft instead. Otherwise he'd be hunted down like a criminal. Samr as Batmsn woyld be and just like the Punisher is.

Kind of hard to be a hero when half your time is spent dodging the cops

Right, I'm not saying he goes out of his way to do it. But if he blows up Doom's fortress or causes Mandarin to get caught in a colllapsing building, he's not going to go out of his way to dig them out either.

Of course, most of the low-power Marvel villains (like Punisher or Daredevil's rogues gallery) tend to be D-listers anyway so it's a bit more believable when they can't be incarcerated for long, or come back from supposedly being dead. Doom getting caught in an explosion and surviving I can buy, but the likes of Joker and Penguin really shouldn't be.


Right.
Has Batman ways to know that the Joker will be able to escape and will kill again...? I guess he can expect that with a 99% certainty. However it is not his role to judge and execute and he does have his code.
Would it be better if he decides to drop the cape and cowl and retire?
Doing something does not make you guilty of not doing more when "more" is not legally justified. And probably not morally either but I'm not sure this is a place to talk about this.

I don't know the laws in Gotham but using lethal force to stop Joker when he is about to cause imminent harm would almost certainly be justified, or at least defensible.


We have absolutely no Superhero without bad Comics.

I guess this is worth keeping in mind as well and is a failing of comics in general.

I recall a post by the Giant that said something along the lines of (paraphrasing) the major problem with comics is that they have to keep writing X character even when the writers have nothing meaningful to say about them, just to keep a title on the shelves and keep the copyright going. This is one of the big problems with Superman and why he so often resorts to punching things when that's really not what Supes is supposed to be about.

I think something similar can be extrapolated to Batman - he needs to be hanging around with all these aliens in the JLA that are way out of his league power-wise because the fans expect him to be there, and there are probably a not-insignificant number of folks who wouldn't buy/watch JLA if Batman wasn't around. So they stick him in there, and he needs to keep up despite being a muggle, so let's give him hypergenius intellect and just the right toys for everything. Which is why I'm sure the new Batman v. Superman movie will have a "fight" where Batman cleans Supes' clock, and it'll be just as silly and contrived as many of the examples in the opening post of this thread. And yet, such a fight does not fill me with excitement or anticipation, because either Supes is going to win effortlessly or Batman is, and both results will be boring.



I know much more about Batman, than about Superman and the other Members of the JLA, but I don't dislike them. I like the dynamic between Batman and Superman. Both want to help people. Batmans wants it, because of the pain, that he experienced and he wants to prevent that much other people experience it, while Superman wants it, because of the Love that he experienced through his step-parents and he wants, that other people can be as lucky, as he was. I find, that this is a great contrast, together with the other contrasts of them like Brain and Brawn or Day and Night.

Okay, this is cool and I never thought of their friendship this way before.



I have nothing against Superheroes with Superpowers, but I like it, when there is a human, that can be in their league with "human" methods. Okay, even Batman is kind of a stretch, because there is no real human, who can all the Things, that Batman can. My Problem with Batmans unrealistically Things, that he did, is more, that the rest of the league is so much above him, that this feets are unrealistically. Why must Superman and Doomsday so strong, that it is completely unrealistic for a human, to survive a punch from Doomsday. Can't Doomsday and Superman just be so strong, that a human would have much more trouble with Doomsday, than Superman. I guess the Problem with that is, that every Hero has their own series and they weren't really designt for a shared series, where they have to work together.

This is exactly why I'll always prefer Iron Man to Bats, despite the former being a B-lister until recently. Yeah the suit is perhaps even less realistic than the utility belt, but that is nevertheless a meaningful way for a really smart and rich guy to contribute to alien wars and invading gods and all that other stuff. And said "alien gods" in Marvel tend to be much weaker than the likes of Supes or Doomsday or Darkseid, so my suspension of disbelief doesn't get shattered right a way when the rich guy in the power armor can hold his own.

[Metahuman1]

Psyren: You are aware Tony Stark has been a card carrying fascism advocate and practioner for over a decade in the comics, right? Forced labor for the government, trodding up and down civil rights like he was reading a script penned by George Orwell, Assassinations and genocide of anyone he doesn't like and thinks he can take out at the drop of a hat.


Tony Stark has been a villain who's been allowed to just continue pretending he's a real hero ever since the civil war event.


And don't even get me started on Hank wife beater "I'm a pacifist who solves all his problems by punching them in the facing and building newer-er and more flawed versions of every project that's ever blow up in my face and cost this planet dearly." Pym.


So, no, no, neither one of them is a good comparison to Batman, because there both utterly irredeemable monsters. They make Red Skull, Dr. Doom and Punisher look decent by comparison. Particularly Stark. Incidentally, between knowing that, Joe Quesada becoming more active in the MCU, and Joss Wheadon stepping away from it, I have serious concerns that Civil War is gonna manage to Undo the ENTIRE MCU as a result of this before we even GET to the Infinity War. (I only pray that Quesada will be held personally accountable and permanently blacklisted form ever so much as watching a Disney commercial let alone working for them in any capacity after that should it come to pass.)

Also, Darksied is powerful and has an attack that can do things like teleport you or make you cease to exist or move you through time, if he focuses and it connects. Thanos can literally rewrite every single minutia of every universes reality, past, present and future, simply by willing it and with no effort beyond that. No, the idea that Tony Stark does anything other then get speared by these guys is no more realistic or plausible then Batman having a cunning plan that out maneuvers them.


As for the laws in Gothem, sorry, but since Gothem is located in a real world state in a real world country, answering that would require me to get into real world laws. Which I can't do. Though I will say that if I were to sum it up in a vague way, it's the "Reality is Unrealistic" trope.


Regards to comics being 90% bad, the same is true of EVERY medium. Don't single comics out as though this is somehow unique to them.




And Bat's Vs. Supe;s:



Ok, Batman exploited knowledge of superman. Strengths, weaknesses, fighting style, tactics, goals, all of it. But, let's say he just wanted to kill him. He could have. He could have either strengthened the dose of the kryptonight to be instantly lethal, or he could have just snapped his neck with the power armor while supe's was depowered. Easily. The only changes would be strengthening the Krytonight does if he went that route, or if he went the other way skipping the speech or just not taking the drugs to make his own heart stop and fake his own death. Everything else still works flawlessly as done. And hell, if your THAT annoyed that he used Robin and Olly, he could set an automatic computer program on the batmobile for the formers role, and he could have a robot or a small blast built into the suit or something for the Kryptonight delivery which was the latter's whole contribution.

But that misses the whole fragging point. Bruce really doesn't want to kill his friend, contrary to what Frank Miller and DC editorial started thinking in the early 2000's. He didn't want to kill superman anymore then superman wanted to kill or hurt him. Not when he doesn't need too. So Bruce set himself a different victory condition. One were all he had to do was get the upper hand in the last few seconds of the fight and then give a small speech and he'd won. Which, is actually classic Sun Tzu even if miller at the time didn't realize that.

[Trevortni]

here he is effortlessly beating up Aquaman (http://i.imgur.com/9UxZC.jpg).

Aquaman? Does Aquaman have super-strength? Huh. That's news to me. Never really cared. Anyway, the way that comic is drawn, combined with the small size, makes it hard for me to tell what's going on. No comment.


here he shrugs off a punch from (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQDmKl1HCaU) a creature that can rattle Superman.

That wasn't a punch, that was a backhand. In comic book physics, it means the target gets thrown back a ways and will take damage on impact with the ground, unless he is acrobatic enough to land on his feet, which Batman canonically is.

Also, Superman wasn't rattled by his punch. He was surprised by it, which is why he was knocked down at all (Batman was more-or-less ready for his backhand). The reason Superman didn't get right back up is because he was rattled by what he saw: all the Amazons getting their butts kicked. The moment the clone grabbed him, it reminded him he was also in the fight, and he decided it was time to stop playing around. And he did, in fact, stop playing around.


here he switches cups (http://www.comicbookbrain.com/_imagery/_2009_01_06/cup-switching-batman-page.jpg) while the man opposite him blinks.

I'm pretty sure Batman is canonically a master of prestidigitation. I could see any stage magician doing this while you were distracted; they might not lie and say it was while you blinked, but then Batman likes to employ psychological gimmicks to make himself seem scarier. Even when the target is going to die anyway, apparently.


Here he survives a huge stone pillar (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTXnn5PZ7yg) being dropped on him by a superwoman, and then drops sleeping gas grenades. Instead of just walking through it or blowing it away or something, she inhales it, assuming it's regular smoke, and passes out. Somehow Batman knew she would do just that.

If you look closely, the pillar didn't hit him full on, it mostly just got his leg and possibly an arm. The clip didn't have enough to tell what kind of condition his leg was in after the superwoman freed him, so I can't comment on that, but its not unreasonable that he might have been able to avoid a break. But you will note that he was pretty inconvenienced by having his foot caught until she did free him.

As for her inhaling the gas - I'm not sure who she was, but it sounds like she might have been an alternate universe version of Superwoman, is that right? In which case he was probably not expecting her to interact with it at all, just use X-ray vision, in which case she would have succumbed to the anesthetic gas sooner or later. The fact that she sucked it up instead is just icing on the cake, and if Batman wasn't Batman and also in pain, he'd have probably been laughing when he told her what it was.


I just can't think of any other fictional character who gets this treatment. Spider-Man has always been my favourite superhero but I'll acknowledge in a heartbeat that he wouldn't stand a chance against Superman. And speaking of Spider-Man, the comment section for his Death Battle with Batman (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8K1m6SCRz4) consists largely of outrage that Batman lost, even though the reasons for it are explained in the video.

Yeah, Spiderman should have won. The killing blow in the video, however, was totally lame. Batman had plenty of time to cut his way out of the web with a batarang or some other gadget. But that's okay: they totally gimped Spiderman's spider sense 90% of the time earlier in the fight anyway, so I suppose it balances out.

[QUOTE=Jeivar;19055948]Why the fanaticism and downright anger when someone challenges the BatGod mythos?

Personally, I find it easier to not read YouTube comments, except for VSauce and Numberphile or stuff like that. I also don't hang out in comic book areas too much, so I really don't have anything to say about this, except to say that sometimes the anger seems to go both ways?

[Avilan the Grey]

Basically, if Batman decides to get in a punching contest with a super, this should happen:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B2G59T1CUAAzIZL.png

Wasn't there some canon thing that WW was the one single JLA member he had no plan on how to take out, because she is almost as strong and fast as Supes, but with ZERO WEAKNESS.

(Edit: also, she is a professionally soldier trained, and willing, to kill).

[HandofShadows]

Wasn't there some canon thing that WW was the one single JLA member he had no plan on how to take out, because she is almost as strong and fast as Supes, but with ZERO WEAKNESS.

(Edit: also, she is a professionally soldier trained, and willing, to kill).

IIRC he did have a way to take her out. Something with sonics I think.

[The Glyphstone]

According to Wikipedia, in the Tower of Babel story:


Thanks to a nanite injected into her ear, Wonder Woman is trapped in a virtual reality battle against an opponent whom she cannot defeat and is her equal in every way. Her refusal to surrender under any circumstance would eventually cause her to tire herself out and die of exhaustion.

[Psyren]

Regards to comics being 90% bad, the same is true of EVERY medium. Don't single comics out as though this is somehow unique to them.

The difference with other media is that the bad stuff can be very easily separated from the good. In novels I can skip all the 50 Shades and Twilights and whatever, and go right to Pratchett or Martin or Rowling. But in comics - yeah I can skip the One More Days, but if I am a Spider Man fan trying to keep up with one of my favorite characters now there are bits of canon I'm not privy to aside from summaries by other people. And I can't even use the writers to help me there, because folks like Quesada and Miller and Claremont occasionally have good stuff among the bad, and my only real way to tell is to either read it myself or wait for the internet to light on fire for me and then be like "okay, guess I'm not buying that one." And of course, even if I don't, I miss out on whatever references or callbacks are made to the previous event, even the brief nods necessary to retcon it away.

And your points regarding Stark and Pym (who I never said was a good guy anyway) just illustrate my earlier point even more. Because you have to keep writing these characters into perpetuity, the writer is starved for interesting ideas and so makes them behave like evil jackasses for awhile. Sometimes this is revealed to be an impostor or evil clone or whatever and sometimes it is actually them taking this or that soapbox for internal conflict. If the breach within the team or with who they used to be is bad enough, then some future writer needs to find a way to retcon it all. So now we have Stark the fascist, which I'm sure will get played up in the Civil War movie for obvious reasons, but wasn't always like that in either medium (or if he was, it never really came up.)

[Anteros]

Superman didn't want to hurt Bat.
Bat didn't want to kill Supes.
But the fact that Bat did have a chance to kill (really?) Superman, was due to Superman holding back in the first place.

With Superman fighting seriously, probably Batman (plus Green Arrow), would never have that chance.


EDIT: even with Krypto, it isn't that easy to kill Superman. Ask Lex Luthor.

That's because Supes is the aggressor in this scenario. In a situation where Bats was the aggressor instead of Supes, then he would just line his drinking glass with kryptonite or something, and Supes would never get a chance to fight back. If they actually wanted to kill each other it would basically be a game of rocket tag depending on who decided to attack first.

[Psyren]

That's because Supes is the aggressor in this scenario. In a situation where Bats was the aggressor instead of Supes, then he would just line his drinking glass with kryptonite or something, and Supes would never get a chance to fight back. If they actually wanted to kill each other it would basically be a game of rocket tag depending on who decided to attack first.

See, this is the kind of crap that makes my eyes roll out of my skull. Supes can, what, hear a pin drop in Malawi or something, but he can't hear or see Batman lining his drinking glass with kryptonite until it's too late? :smallsigh:

[Anteros]

He knows where he lives. Presumably he wouldn't do it when he's home. And yes, it is canon that Bats has gadgets that allow him to avoid detection by Supes. Superman is the one who asked him to design them and presumably gave him the information needed to do so. There's a reason Superman gave a piece of Kryptonite to Batman in case he ever needs to be stopped. Because Supes himself recognizes that he's capable of doing it.

Could Bats beat him in a straight fight? No way. But he could definitely stop him if it ever got bad enough that he needed to take the initiative to do so...and that's fine. He can't beat Superman if you just throw them into a ring together with no preparation, but he is fully capable of creating a plan to catch him off guard and take him out. Preparation and planning are his super powers. Yes, it's a bit unrealistic, but considering it's a comic book who cares?

[Devonix]

He knows where he lives. Presumably he wouldn't do it when he's home. And yes, it is canon that Bats has gadgets that allow him to avoid detection by Supes. Superman is the one who asked him to design them and presumably gave him the information needed to do so. There's a reason Superman gave a piece of Kryptonite to Batman in case he ever needs to be stopped. Because Supes himself recognizes that he's capable of doing it.

Could Bats beat him in a straight fight? No way. But he could definitely stop him if it ever got bad enough that he needed to take the initiative to do so...and that's fine. He can't beat Superman if you just throw them into a ring together with no preparation, but he is fully capable of creating a plan to catch him off guard and take him out. Preparation and planning are his super powers. Yes, it's a bit unrealistic, but considering it's a comic book who cares?

If people think that Lex Luthor can take out Superman then obviously they think that Batman could formulate and take him out as well.

The problem occurs when these people assume that Superman Can't take out Batman. Which is just silly but is a thing people think.

[Anteros]

I don't see how anyone could reasonably argue that. He's lost to people like Bane and Killer Croc before. He's been beaten unconscious by a teenage girl dressed like a clown. I don't think I've ever actually seen someone argue that.

[SowZ]

I don't see how anyone could reasonably argue that. He's lost to people like Bane and Killer Croc before. He's been beaten unconscious by a teenage girl dressed like a clown. I don't think I've ever actually seen someone argue that.

When he beats Superman it is via manipulating his psychological weakness' more than anything.

[Avilan the Grey]

According to Wikipedia, in the Tower of Babel story:

Yes. Because that's how nanites work. Also, Eyeroll.

"Holy Gadgets as the Plot Demands, Batman!"
"Indeed, Robin! Now hand me the Shark Deterrent Spray!"

http://www.alphak.net/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2010/06/bat-carousel-reversal-spray.jpg

[Anteros]

Yes. Because that's how nanites work. Also, Eyeroll.

"Holy Gadgets as the Plot Demands, Batman!"
"Indeed, Robin! Now hand me the Shark Deterrent Spray!"



Basically none of the tech in comics works like their real life analogues. I don't know why this particular instance would anger you. This is a universe where things like freeze rays, mind control gadgets, and shrink rays are common place.

[Quild]

Yes. Because that's how nanites work. Also, Eyeroll.
Well, nanites belong more to fiction than to reality in a first place, so...

In Justice League:Doom, the same kind of thing is used against WW but that makes her see anyone like if it was Cheetah.
The problem with WW is that she's almost immune to magic which is one of Superman's weaknesses. Technology is one of the only things that can work against her.

Scarecrow's toxin may work, but she can hold her breath for a while. She has enhanced-lung-capacity!

[HandofShadows]

Yes. Because that's how nanites work. Also, Eyeroll.

Nanites are just very small machines and they can go anywhere in the body. They would just need to interface with the brain and create "illusions" for the person (That would be the hard part). More than one of the current explorations into Man Machine interfaces uses nanotehcnology. And have you ever seen Ghost in the Shell? A cyberbrain is a human mind with nanites in it that allows for a man machine interface. So yes that IS how nanites can work if they are programed to do so.

[BeerMug Paladin]

You know, something occurs to me. Perhaps Batman is so liked because of his nature as a badass normal makes it possible to imagine that we could be him. He doesn't have weird special powers nobody else has. Only a ridiculous amount of discipline and resources. Theoretically, we can all imagine a future where we could do what he does. He can serve as an audience (or writer) insert character.

Superman, while a good character, cannot. I am largely unfamiliar with most comic book characters.
That might be why a lot of writers (and fans) decide to show him as being so impossible to beat. And get upset if he's not widely acknowledged to be the most awesome character around.

Identifying personally with a thing can tie up all sorts of emotional investment so that when that idea is perceived to lose out or be critiqued, it can feel like a personal slander. Hence, critique Batman, critique all the people who think of him like this.

[Cheesegear]

You know, something occurs to me. Perhaps Batman is so liked because of his nature as a badass normal makes it possible to imagine that we could be him.

That's pretty much exactly it. There's several character studies on the subject. If it's only occurring to you now...


He doesn't have weird special powers nobody else has.

That's the other half. The larger point of why people rabidly defend him, is that for all his money, and for all his brains, he's still just a guy in a suit and can very easily be injured, maimed and - yes - even killed.

But, that 'guy in a suit' has canonically been shown to punch in a *ahem* league, far above his own weight class, and actually win, just by using his brains, a couple of gadgets, and a carbon fibre-kevlar stab vest, and that's it. You've got legit super powers? Well, he's a smart guy in a suit Batman, and you still lost. What's your excuse?

I'll also note that Bats' suit isn't even special. Not even close to Iron Man's calibre. Bats' suit has a grapple, and his cape allows him to fall with style. There's also infra-red junk in his helment, too, I guess. The rest is brains and money. As opposed to Tony Stark, who also has brains and money, but his suit legit flies and shoots beams and missiles.

[Anteros]

It's nothing new. People have been telling stories of the "ordinary guy" overcoming enemies far outside of his weight class for thousands of years. Look at David and Goliath. Batman is just the representation of that trope in the comic world.

[Lurkmoar]

It's nothing new. People have been telling stories of the "ordinary guy" overcoming enemies far outside of his weight class for thousands of years. Look at David and Goliath. Batman is just the representation of that trope in the comic world.

Or when Jacob wrestled an angel and the angel called uncle.

Has Batman wrestled an angel? I'm almost sure he has...

[comicshorse]

He's fought alongside an angel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zauriel

Not sure if they ever wrestled though

[Logic]

Well, nanites belong more to fiction than to reality in a first place, so...

In Justice League:Doom, the same kind of thing is used against WW but that makes her see anyone like if it was Cheetah.
The problem with WW is that she's almost immune to magic which is one of Superman's weaknesses. Technology is one of the only things that can work against her.

Scarecrow's toxin may work, but she can hold her breath for a while. She has enhanced-lung-capacity!

I see this brought up nearly every time a Superman debate is brought up, and it is factually incorrect. Superman merely has no inherent defenses against magic. And assuming Batman isn't carrying a counter-magic device, is just as screwed on that front as Superman is.

Superman (and Batman) are not any more weak to magic than you and I are weak to bullets.

[Psyren]

Except he's not "a normal guy." All his money and training came from a massive inheritance from his dead parents, he didn't earn any of it. Becoming him is every bit as unlikely for most folks as becoming Superman, it's just that most folks who seem him as a self-insert have deluded themselves into believing otherwise.

[Cheesegear]

All his money and training came from a massive inheritance from his dead parents, he didn't earn any of it.

I don't think anybody cares about that. I think Psych portrayed the 'everyman superhero' best;
1. Have some knowledge of law enforcement (like be a cop)
2. Have access to para-military gear (like in a police armoury), particularly a stab vest so you don't die in five seconds.
3. Be good at martial arts.
4. Fight dudes who do crime.

On paper, it doesn't seem that hard, in fact it even looks achievable. Being intelligent, and having three college degrees also isn't impossible - I've seen it done!

Without ludicrous amounts of money, the only thing you'd really be missing is the Batmobile, plane, and the submarine.

[Quild]

I see this brought up nearly every time a Superman debate is brought up, and it is factually incorrect. Superman merely has no inherent defenses against magic. And assuming Batman isn't carrying a counter-magic device, is just as screwed on that front as Superman is.

Superman (and Batman) are not any more weak to magic than you and I are weak to bullets.
I was saying that Wonder Woman has way more resistance to magic than Superman has. Not that Superman has less resistance to magic than Batman has. I could argue that, but that's not my point here.


Except he's not "a normal guy." All his money and training came from a massive inheritance from his dead parents, he didn't earn any of it. Becoming him is every bit as unlikely for most folks as becoming Superman, it's just that most folks who seem him as a self-insert have deluded themselves into believing otherwise.
Christopher D'Amico tried to use money to get a Batman-like training, but didn't manage. Dave Lizewski gets a better one from Mindy Macready :D

But I'm not sure about who you were answering to and why.

[Cheesegear]

But I'm not sure about who you were answering to and why.

I think he was answering me. I said Batman has no super-powers. Apparently having money means that Bruce Wayne 'isn't normal'.

[Traab]

I think he was answering me. I said Batman has no super-powers. Apparently having money means that Bruce Wayne 'isn't normal'.

Too be fair, having unlimited money to work with is pretty abnormal. To quote Jack Nicholson "Where does he get those wonderful toys?!" Well jacko, he gets them from his bottomless R&D budget. He could master a billion martial arts styles, but if he doesnt have the cash to build things like his body armor, grappling hooks, specialty gizmos, etc, then he is a much less effective hero. It gets even worse when he cant afford to be taught all those fields of mastery he has learned, or to buy the equipment he needs to use them. Oh sure, he may have the knowledge of whatever field of science it is that breaks down the scarecrows fear toxin, but without the extremely expensive equipment required to analyze it, plus the even more expensive methods needed to make sure people arent asking why bruce wayne has it, its meaningless

[Psyren]

Or when Jacob wrestled an angel and the angel called uncle.

Pretty sure the angel won that one actually. It tapped his hip and knocked it out of joint, ending the fight.


I think he was answering me. I said Batman has no super-powers. Apparently having money means that Bruce Wayne 'isn't normal'.

I was responding to you, Beermug and Anteros. And yes, Batman's extreme wealth is as unattainable as Iron Man's armor, and not nearly as far off from Supes' good breeding as you imply.

Also, to build on Traab's post, simply having the free time to master martial arts and hone his detective skills is a product of that wealth as well, so we can't divorce that bit either.

[Logic]

I was saying that Wonder Woman has way more resistance to magic than Superman has. Not that Superman has less resistance to magic than Batman has. I could argue that, but that's not my point here.

Perhaps we are arguing semantics now (I highly suspect that is the case) but Wonder Woman having a resistance to magic does not equate that everyone else has a weakness to magic.

By the same token, (3.x) dwarves have a resistance to magic (in the form of +2 saving throws) but that does not mean other races possesses a weakness to magic. Lacking an advantage that someone else possesses does not mean that you are weak to said attack.

[The Glyphstone]

This whole debate can be resolved instantly with one word - relatively .

Compared to Wonder Woman, everyone else isrelatively weak to magic, just as non-dwarves are weak to magic when compared to dwarves. This does not make them objectively weak to magic.

[Raimun]

I've played Arkham City. I know what Batman is capable of.

Straight fight: One guy with an assault rifle is dangerous. Two guys (within 40 ft. of each other) with assault rifles are a real challenge. Three guys with assault rifles (within 40 ft. of each other) is death incarnate.

Deploy an infantry squadron against Batman and all he can do is escape with his rope gun.

Superman could destroy infantry squad (and Batman) from the orbit.

I'm glad Marvel's Daredevil is not as popular as Batman. Otherwise we would see him knocking the lights out of mighty Thor with his trusty billy club (or some billy club-themed weapon) because "he knows where Thor's pressure points are" and "he can totally see his moves"*.

*It's ludicrous because Thor's (ie. flying brick's) pressure points are less vulnerable than a tank's armor and merely seeing a Thor's approaching fist would not let you avoid it or let alone, endure it.

[Avilan the Grey]

Regarding badass normals...
Problem with Bats is that he fluctuates between badass normal and physical god.

[Logic]

This whole debate can be resolved instantly with one word - relatively .

Compared to Wonder Woman, everyone else isrelatively weak to magic, just as non-dwarves are weak to magic when compared to dwarves. This does not make them objectively weak to magic.

I dislike using someone with a purpose built resistance as the baseline, because then nearly everyone has a weakness to nearly everything Superman can do and stand up to.

Using "relatively," then Batman is weak to punches, laser vision, ice breath, super speed, etc...

But now we are definitely arguing semantics. (Why wasn't I a lawyer like my mother wanted me to be?)

[Flickerdart]

Deploy an infantry squadron against Batman and all he can do is escape with his rope gun.
That's sort of the whole point of Batman - he isn't someone you can pin down just by throwing a bunch of dudes with machine guns in his general direction.

[The Glyphstone]

I dislike using someone with a purpose built resistance as the baseline, because then nearly everyone has a weakness to nearly everything Superman can do and stand up to.

Using "relatively," then Batman is weak to punches, laser vision, ice breath, super speed, etc...

But now we are definitely arguing semantics. (Why wasn't I a lawyer like my mother wanted me to be?)

Only if you use Superman as the baseline, which is exactly the point I am making. When you use words like 'strong' or 'weak' or 'resistance', particularly in discussion of superheroes, it's very important to establish what baseline you are using. Else you get the above 2 pages of argument. Semantics, yes, but semantics are important sometimes, and this is one of them.

[Anteros]

There are plenty of stories where Bruce basically travels the world as a penniless hobo to undergo his training. I'm pretty sure it's even the current canon. His wealth certainly doesn't hinder him, but it isn't the primary reason for his success either.

[Ravian]

On superman and magic, yes he is not specifically weak to it, not like Kryptonite, but he has no defense against it, just like everyone else. But that's just as good. Mainly because magic has a pretty good track record of working when you shoot it at someone with no magic resistance. And when we're talking about a guy that can normally tank a cruise missile, if a magic spell can turn him into a newt just like it would John Cleese I would call it a pretty big weakness for him.

Same with wooden stakes and vampires. If you think about it yes, a stake through the heart will kill a human just as quickly as it would a vampire (assuming this is actually a universe where such a rule exists). However, stakes in hearts are considered a vampire weakness primarily because in most fiction most attacks have limited effect on the average vampire. Therefore when considering the host of a vampire's capabilities, stakes are a weakness for them, just like magic is a weakness for Superman.

Final way to put it, assume Superman is fighting Voldemort. How many Avada Cadavra spells does it take to kill a regular human? Assuming there's no love magic going around, typically only one. Therefore, since Superman has no more resistance to magic than the average human, he's probably going to die to one casting. (assuming he waits for him to finish the spell for some reason) Sure he's not going to keel over from a rabbit pulled from a hat thrown at him, but it's still a pretty huge weakness when you consider how many magic wielding villains are out there.

[BeerMug Paladin]

I was responding to you, Beermug and Anteros. And yes, Batman's extreme wealth is as unattainable as Iron Man's armor, and not nearly as far off from Supes' good breeding as you imply.

You win the lottery. Five times in a row. Without purchasing a ticket. You are now fabulously wealthy and can do whatever you want. You still have no superpowers.

Unlikely does not equal impossible. Fantasy self-insert characters are practically defined by a preponderance of the unlikely.

At will sustained flying powers, on the other hand...

[Quild]

Perhaps we are arguing semantics now (I highly suspect that is the case) but Wonder Woman having a resistance to magic does not equate that everyone else has a weakness to magic.

By the same token, (3.x) dwarves have a resistance to magic (in the form of +2 saving throws) but that does not mean other races possesses a weakness to magic. Lacking an advantage that someone else possesses does not mean that you are weak to said attack.
So Achilles' heel is not a weakness? :D
I agree that it may be semantics.

I could refer to my sig on that one, but that would be cheating ;)

[Logic]

So Achilles' heel is not a weakness? :D
I agree that it may be semantics.

I could refer to my sig on that one, but that would be cheating ;)

I hide signatures by default, so I had to look at your profile to double check what you were referring to. It's not cheating to quote your signature, unless you are Batman.

[Psyren]

You win the lottery. Five times in a row. Without purchasing a ticket. You are now fabulously wealthy and can do whatever you want. You still have no superpowers.

Winning the lottery a measly 5 times would get you nowhere close to Batman's wealth - and even if it did, you would still not have grown up with it and therefore had the free time (and chip on your shoulder) to focus your resources and time so thoroughly on martial training.

[The Glyphstone]

Batman doesn't have to worry about filing tax returns (what would the property taxes even be on a space station?), or declaring business expenses for his illegal crimefighting (it's how they got Al Capone, tax evasion), or managing his portfolio of residuals and interest versus capital to avoid a reduction in future earnings. He just has the Infinite Money cheat code turned on.

'Wealth' is not a superpower. 'Batman level wealth' is a superpower, because it exceed any rational boundaries that could be applied to a real-world person's income or personal worth.

[Traab]

Batman doesn't have to worry about filing tax returns (what would the property taxes even be on a space station?), or declaring business expenses for his illegal crimefighting (it's how they got Al Capone, tax evasion), or managing his portfolio of residuals and interest versus capital to avoid a reduction in future earnings. He just has the Infinite Money cheat code turned on.

'Wealth' is not a superpower. 'Batman level wealth' is a superpower, because it exceed any rational boundaries that could be applied to a real-world person's income or personal worth.

Honestly, that one line from the justice league cartoon nearly made me tear my hair out in frustration. Where batman tells the newly formed league he hid the cost for their brand new SPACE STATION in the R&D budget of wayne enterprise. There is just so much WRONG with that statement that I hardly know where to begin. For starters, a space station like that would cost billions. His company would need an annual research budget in the hundreds of trillions to even THINK about being able to bury it in a way that wouldnt be noticed. In other words, his company would need to spend more money than actually exists on research every year to hide that. Then you have to wonder how the hell he had the station BUILT in secrecy. How he managed to have it built in such a way that it cant be traced to his company, how he managed to ensure the probably thousands of employees working on the various parts and systems were vetted and found to be trustworthy and able to keep their mouths shut. How he managed to have it launched into space without anyone noticing it. How no other nation saw a freaking space station orbiting the earth and DIDNT freak out over this unknown structure floating overhead.

Had he said, "I used my dimensional rift creator to transport all the manpower and materials to an empty universe so it could be built in secret, then wiped their memories and had the finished station phase shifted back" it would have been more believable than that short explanation for how, on a freaking lark and with no advance notice, he had a space station quickly built that only a group like cadmus could trace back to wayne.

[Starwulf]

Honestly, that one line from the justice league cartoon nearly made me tear my hair out in frustration. Where batman tells the newly formed league he hid the cost for their brand new SPACE STATION in the R&D budget of wayne enterprise. There is just so much WRONG with that statement that I hardly know where to begin. For starters, a space station like that would cost billions. His company would need an annual research budget in the hundreds of trillions to even THINK about being able to bury it in a way that wouldnt be noticed. In other words, his company would need to spend more money than actually exists on research every year to hide that. Then you have to wonder how the hell he had the station BUILT in secrecy. How he managed to have it built in such a way that it cant be traced to his company, how he managed to ensure the probably thousands of employees working on the various parts and systems were vetted and found to be trustworthy and able to keep their mouths shut. How he managed to have it launched into space without anyone noticing it. How no other nation saw a freaking space station orbiting the earth and DIDNT freak out over this unknown structure floating overhead.

Had he said, "I used my dimensional rift creator to transport all the manpower and materials to an empty universe so it could be built in secret, then wiped their memories and had the finished station phase shifted back" it would have been more believable than that short explanation for how, on a freaking lark and with no advance notice, he had a space station quickly built that only a group like cadmus could trace back to wayne.

That....is freaking hilarious. I'm trying my hardest to not cry from laughter at the moment. You're right, that is insanely ridiculous for such a claim to be made, one must wonder what exactly the producer for that particular cartoon was thinking.

[Prime32]

Batman doesn't have to worry about filing tax returns (what would the property taxes even be on a space station?)Consider that the International Space Station cost over $150,000,000,000. Batman managed to build something exponentially larger and more advanced, in a fraction of the time, without being detected by anyone including Superman. And he hid this so well that not only did no one notice anything odd about what Bruce Wayne was doing with his money or workers, but the workers themselves never realised what their project was even after seeing the Watchtower on TV.

[Cheesegear]

Where batman tells the newly formed league he hid the cost for their brand new SPACE STATION in the R&D budget of wayne enterprise.

Batman has some really stupid lines in JL/U, all so he can seem more badass than he really is. Since the other members on his team are an alien, an amazon demigod, space cop, another alien, another alien, and Flash. In order to make Batman not be sidelined to a bad joke - Superfriends' Aquaman, for example - the creators of Batman, need to make him The Wesley of the team.

Justice League: War at least uses Batman properly - because the current crop of animated movies actually bear a passing resemblance to the comics that they're based off of.
The first part of Batman's plan is stealth. Yes. Of all the members of the League, that's probably the one thing that Batman is good at.
The second part of Batman's plan is 'Get. Superman.'
Then, when it finally comes to fighting the bad guy (Darkseid), Batman barely participates in the fight, even the tech stuff is handled by Cyborg, not Batman.

[Traab]

Agreed, a realistic interpretation of batman would be HE stays at the watchtower and martian manhunter goes on missions. With his deductive abilities and general knowledge, as well as his strategic ability, he would be far superior hanging back at base solving the mysteries and finding out what this or that random thing the fighters found means. As well as deciding what league members go where. I mean, he doesnt have to stay put, the league fights plenty of bad guys he could be a part of, but he would be better placed as the forensic guy who scans the battlefield afterwards to figure out what happened and what they have to do next.

[Anteros]

Again, tech in comic books are far, far, far more advanced than anything we have in real life. Just because something costs billions of dollars in the real world, does not mean it would cost the same amount of money in a universe where things like teleporters, shrink rays, etc are common place.

Honestly, an affordable space station is on the more believable end of the DC universe technological spectrum.

[endur]

And it makes me sad, because I feel Batman can be a great character. But he has been so grossly exaggerated in order to fit in stories out of his element.

Pretty much all characters that have their own series are exaggerated in their own stories. The writer needs to show the characters have great capabilities in different ways ... we see this in movies too ... in the most recent Iron Man, Tony Stark spent most of the time outside of his armored suit.

The best way to compare characters is see how they do in group stories (i.e. DC superheroes in Justice League, Marvel superheroes in Avengers, etc.).

Also I agree with the comments above that space travel in the DC universe probably isn't as costly as in the real world.

[Trevortni]

Again, tech in comic books are far, far, far more advanced than anything we have in real life. Just because something costs billions of dollars in the real world, does not mean it would cost the same amount of money in a universe where things like teleporters, shrink rays, etc are common place.

Honestly, an affordable space station is on the more believable end of the DC universe technological spectrum.

How much of the cost of a space station in the real world is fuel (and rockets) to get it into space in the first place? When at least one of your best buddies can fly into outer space to take a leak (Superman's gotta do that somewhere in canon, right?), suddenly the cost of getting the thing into space just.... vanishes.

If you're not building the rockets to get it up there, you suddenly get a lot more discretion on saying you're making prototypes for theoretical space applications our some such nonsense. Hey, how do we know that's not what the CEO of Virgin is doing, or some other corporations making long-term space plans in the real world (other than the fact that they are in the real world). Oh, and zero-g research does have a lot of real world R&D applications anyway - just siphon off some of that.



Also I agree with the comments above that space travel in the DC universe probably isn't as costly as in the real world.

Exactly. And also the real world has enough places hide the pieces anyway.

Edit: And now I'm wondering if Superman can use Earth toilets without breaking them anyway. Maybe he has to fly into space to take a leak. I am now officially scared to test Rule 34.

[Flickerdart]

Edit: And now I'm wondering if Superman can use Earth toilets without breaking them anyway. Maybe he has to fly into space to take a leak. I am now officially scared to test Rule 34.
Given that Superman can pick up things without crushing them, look at things without lasering them, breathe without freezing everything around him, walk without leaping buildings in a single bound, and so forth, it's safe to assume he can dial back his power in every single one of its manifestations.

[Anteros]

But what about when he really has to go? These are the important questions of our time.

[The Glyphstone]

Edit: And now I'm wondering if Superman can use Earth toilets without breaking them anyway. Maybe he has to fly into space to take a leak. I am now officially scared to test Rule 34.

Ever read Larry Niven's essay 'Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex'?

[Devonix]

Ever read Larry Niven's essay 'Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex'?

ehh always thought that was silly. Also his bodily fluids aren't under some forced super pressure. If they were then whenever he bled it would be like a fire hose.

[Quild]

ehh always thought that was silly. Also his bodily fluids aren't under some forced super pressure. If they were then whenever he bled it would be like a fire hose.
Or he would implose whenever kryptonite is close from him.


I never understood why kryptonite weakened him. Comes from his planet, yeah, sure, and? The planet kryptonians lived on. Even the fact that they had no power does not come from that but is because there was no yellow sun.

But the worse is I think when some villain is able to steal his powers. Why and how? It's like stealing someone's ability to sing without stealing his voice.

[Traab]

Or he would implose whenever kryptonite is close from him.


I never understood why kryptonite weakened him. Comes from his planet, yeah, sure, and? The planet kryptonians lived on. Even the fact that they had no power does not come from that but is because there was no yellow sun.

But the worse is I think when some villain is able to steal his powers. Why and how? It's like stealing someone's ability to sing without stealing his voice.

Meh, I can buy the specific radiation effecting him. Kryptonite has all sorts of odd effects on regular people, its not that much of a stretch that it would effect him too. As for it being his home planet.... so? Im allergic to dust. That dust tends to come from this planet as far as I know. Im also allergic to two kinds of grass and a specific tree. All of which are found on my home planet. Also, I may be wrong, but doesnt kryptonite stop effecting him when he is under a red sun? That implies to me, that his weakness to kryptonite is connected to however his body absorbs solar energy. Like, so long as he isnt absorbing it, his body is blocked to kryptonite, but as soon as that port opens up, this energy can enter and effect him too.

[Cheesegear]

Kryptonite is basically uranium. But from Krypton.
Go ahead and find yourself some uranium and hang around it for a bit and see what happens. I'll wait. I'm sure you wont suffer any bad effects, since uranium is from your home planet after all. Nothing can hurt us here!

Basically, everytime Supes is exposed to Kryptonite, he's suffers severe radiation poisoning.

[Kris Strife]

I never understood why kryptonite weakened him. Comes from his planet, yeah, sure, and? The planet kryptonians lived on. Even the fact that they had no power does not come from that but is because there was no yellow sun.


Last I heard, it was because Superman absorbs yellow sun radiation which gives him his powers. Krpytonite gives off another form of radiation, and one that Superman's kryptonian body absorbs preferentially to Yellow sun radiation, like Carbon Monoxide binds to the hemoglobin in your blood better than oxygen. Kryptonite radiation drives the yellow sun radiation out of his body, taking away his powers, in a method that is extremely painful and debilitating for Kryptonians, or at least ones that are powered by a yellow sun.

Red sun radiation is a more gradual replacement, compared to the rapid form of Kryptonite, and simply replaces the yellow sun radiation expended by a kryptonian.

[Prime32]

I never understood why kryptonite weakened him. Comes from his planet, yeah, sure, and? The planet kryptonians lived on. Even the fact that they had no power does not come from that but is because there was no yellow sun.In some versions Kryptonite was a rare substance found inside Krypton's core, which eventually grew out of control and caused the planet to explode.

[Devonix]

Meh, I can buy the specific radiation effecting him. Kryptonite has all sorts of odd effects on regular people, its not that much of a stretch that it would effect him too. As for it being his home planet.... so? Im allergic to dust. That dust tends to come from this planet as far as I know. Im also allergic to two kinds of grass and a specific tree. All of which are found on my home planet. Also, I may be wrong, but doesnt kryptonite stop effecting him when he is under a red sun? That implies to me, that his weakness to kryptonite is connected to however his body absorbs solar energy. Like, so long as he isnt absorbing it, his body is blocked to kryptonite, but as soon as that port opens up, this energy can enter and effect him too.

Nope he's still affected by Kryptonite when under a red sun.

It's just radiation that his race is more vulnerable to. Having to do with the way the planet was destroyed altering the minerals.

[Cheesegear]

I'll also bring the thread back around to Lex Luthor's kryptonite ring, which gave him cancer. Because it's radioactive. Which Superman eventually took, and gave to Batman to use against Superman, because Batman needs to be able to harm Superman. Because Batman is The Wesley and Fan Favourite at the same time. Somehow.

[Traab]

I'll also bring the thread back around to Lex Luthor's kryptonite ring, which gave him cancer. Because it's radioactive. Which Superman eventually took, and gave to Batman to use against Superman, because Batman needs to be able to harm Superman. Because Batman is The Wesley and Fan Favourite at the same time. Somehow.

Lets not forget smallville, where extensive exposure to kryptonite mutated regular humans, giving them powers, and often, a mental psychosis.

[Cheesegear]

Lets not forget smallville, where extensive exposure to kryptonite mutated regular humans, giving them powers, and often, a mental psychosis.

I'm actually really disappointed that Grayson never made it into Smallville. Oliver Queen was cool. But Grayson would have been way better.

[Psyren]

Batman doesn't have to worry about filing tax returns (what would the property taxes even be on a space station?), or declaring business expenses for his illegal crimefighting (it's how they got Al Capone, tax evasion), or managing his portfolio of residuals and interest versus capital to avoid a reduction in future earnings. He just has the Infinite Money cheat code turned on.

'Wealth' is not a superpower. 'Batman level wealth' is a superpower, because it exceed any rational boundaries that could be applied to a real-world person's income or personal worth.

Yep, that.


That....is freaking hilarious. I'm trying my hardest to not cry from laughter at the moment. You're right, that is insanely ridiculous for such a claim to be made, one must wonder what exactly the producer for that particular cartoon was thinking.

Eh, it's not all that much worse than "attosecond." (http://i.imgur.com/0xRHH92.png) Really, DC is full of "extreeeeeeeme!" claims like that. Marvel has plenty too, but they at least keep them mostly out of the main/A-list lineup where they can keep surfacing and shattering suspension of disbelief.

And even if the space station was much cheaper in DC$, putting something that size in orbit without Superman noticing was still pretty ridiculous.


Pretty much all characters that have their own series are exaggerated in their own stories. The writer needs to show the characters have great capabilities in different ways ... we see this in movies too ... in the most recent Iron Man, Tony Stark spent most of the time outside of his armored suit.

Yeah, but he was fighting a bunch of muggle terrorists for the most part, not gods and aliens and other things he would need his armor for. By the time the Mandarin (well, the actual Mandarin) showed up in the movie, he had his armor back and then some.

[McNum]

What makes that line about hiding the Watchtower in the R&D budget even more silly is that he didn't really need to hide it in the first place. Batman can, as Bruce Wayne, extend his gratitude to the Justice League by offering them a space-based homebase as a grateful, but extremely wealthy, citizen. It'd make Wayne look good, it'd give the JLA their base, and who's going to connect the dots who wouldn't already be able to?

But to talk more generally about Batman, my favorite Batman is when his detective and tactical skills are played up. Batman should be good at fighting, yes, but I like him better when his shtick is to avoid fighting via stealth and planning. And if need be, end any fight as quickly as possible, preferably with a quick takedown from hiding and then hide again. Because that's what Batman is good at. Seen from the enemy's perspective, it'd be like being in an Alien movie. You KNOW it's out there. You KNOW it will attack. But you don't know from where or when. That's Batman. He's a horror movie monster when he fights. Against foes where that isn't an option, he falls back on martial arts aided by his gadgets, or just outright flees.

And putting that man against Justice League class opponents? Yeah, he shouldn't be trading punches with Darkseid or Doomsday or anyone who can stagger Superman. But, he should be awesome at battlefield support, either remotely, in a vehicle, or if need be, in the thick of it. He shouldn't do much damage on his own, unless there's a really good reason to, but he'll know if there's a weakness to exploit, either a personal one, much like Superman's weakness to Kryptonite, or a tactical one where the villain has failed to protect something important, or merely has an exploitable flaw in how he fights. Batman can point that out, maybe relayed telepathically via J'onn (because yelling out that the enemy has an exploitable habit kind of defeats that point).

But I do prefer Detective Batman. Probably why I wasn't so impressed with the Nolan films. Sure, he dresses up like a bat and fights bad guys, but he's just a thug in an expensive suit and a small tank. He doesn't fight smart. Plus, they had Ra's al Ghul as a villain, and didn't play up Batman's detective skills. That's just poor form, especially considering Ra's nickname for Batman. "Detective". Honestly, I'm still waiting for a good Batman movie at this point. One that focuses on the sharp mind that is Batman, and not the fighter that is Batman.

[hamishspence]

Honestly, I'm still waiting for a good Batman movie at this point. One that focuses on the sharp mind that is Batman, and not the fighter that is Batman.

Didn't it require a sharp mind, doing a lot of research, to figure out the exact nature of the Joker's chemical-tainting scheme in the Keaton Batman movie - and provide the appropriate recommendations?

[BRC]

But I do prefer Detective Batman. Probably why I wasn't so impressed with the Nolan films. Sure, he dresses up like a bat and fights bad guys, but he's just a thug in an expensive suit and a small tank. He doesn't fight smart. Plus, they had Ra's al Ghul as a villain, and didn't play up Batman's detective skills. That's just poor form, especially considering Ra's nickname for Batman. "Detective". Honestly, I'm still waiting for a good Batman movie at this point. One that focuses on the sharp mind that is Batman, and not the fighter that is Batman.

My favorite version on Batman will always be the DCAU. Determined, but not without compassion. High emphasis on detective skills rather than fighting skills or insane super gadgets.

There's one episode ("Almost Got Him" I think) where Two-Face mentions that he was able to take down Batman in a fight by bringing along "The Two-Ton Gang", which was three really big guys.

Consider that, three really big guys. They didn't look like martial arts experts, if they were supersoldiers or metahumans Two-Face didn't mention them. They were just three really big guys. They were able to beat Batman up and tie him to a giant penny.

I mean, in the end he escaped and was able to take them, and two-face, down using some trickery, quick-thinkings, sleight-of-hand, and acrobatics. But in a straight fistfight, Batman got beat up by three really big guys who knew how to fight.

Which is how it should work I would think. In the world of unarmed combat, there are few weapons superior to "Three really big guys who know how to fight".

[Cheesegear]

Not sure how much I can spoil Son of Batman since its only a year old. But the 'fighting' is done mostly by Damien, with Bruce - and Grayson - trying to hold him back telling him that he needs to learn to make a plan before he runs in, swords out. It's not a great detective story, but it does feature Batman in role that isn't simply limited to 'fights good', and the enemies in said movie are much more in Bats' wheelhouse.
(I don't care what Justice League Unlimited told you. Batman can not fight Darkseid.)
So, give it a shot, I guess?

In Justice League: Throne of Atlantis, Batman does some detective work with Supes - in his role as an investigative journalist. But that doesn't last very long. Mostly because just like in JL: War, a lot of what Batman should be doing, is being done by Cyborg instead. But I like Cyborg, so I don't care at all.

Also, I'll second Keaton's Batman.

[Logic]

Something that I actually think would be interesting in a vs type scenario, is not who can beat whom in a fight, but which hero can discover the secret identity of their opponent first.

In nearly every possible match-up, I give the edge to Batman.
In most scenarios, I think Spider-Man loses (which is another reason I hate OMD)

[Flickerdart]

Something that I actually think would be interesting in a vs type scenario, is not who can beat whom in a fight, but which hero can discover the secret identity of their opponent first.

In nearly every possible match-up, I give the edge to Batman.
In most scenarios, I think Spider-Man loses (which is another reason I hate OMD)
Flash wins, because...
https://38.media.tumblr.com/580c8e1dab447109cf4208feac482ce9/tumblr_mz200qarOF1qjn01ro7_250.gif

[Kyberwulf]

I always thought the whole "Hid it in the R&D budget" was Batman being sarcastic.

[Traab]

My favorite version on Batman will always be the DCAU. Determined, but not without compassion. High emphasis on detective skills rather than fighting skills or insane super gadgets.

There's one episode ("Almost Got Him" I think) where Two-Face mentions that he was able to take down Batman in a fight by bringing along "The Two-Ton Gang", which was three really big guys.

Consider that, three really big guys. They didn't look like martial arts experts, if they were supersoldiers or metahumans Two-Face didn't mention them. They were just three really big guys. They were able to beat Batman up and tie him to a giant penny.

I mean, in the end he escaped and was able to take them, and two-face, down using some trickery, quick-thinkings, sleight-of-hand, and acrobatics. But in a straight fistfight, Batman got beat up by three really big guys who knew how to fight.

Which is how it should work I would think. In the world of unarmed combat, there are few weapons superior to "Three really big guys who know how to fight".

I prefer Killer Crocs story.

"I threw a ROCK at him!" /everyone stares at him in disbelief "It was a really big rock!"

[Lord Raziere]

man its probably too late for this because of my stupid internet going out for about a week, but I'm posting this anyways:

Ok, here is some logic for you:
Batman can beat anything right? Except, by his own logic he actually can’t! Why? Because going by bat-logic in Brave and The Bold, there exists Batmans all throughout time and space wherever justice is needed to be done. Since Krypton is within time and space, and was probably imperfect somehow and therefore had some form of crime, therefore by bat-logic, a Batman existed there, a Batkryptonian with if you will. Batkryptonian of course didn’t have any powers on Krypton, so he had to do all the normal Bat-stuff. Now you say what does this have to do with anything? Krypton is destroyed! Well here is the thing, Batkryptonian being a Batman, is prepared for everything. “destruction of the world” is apart of everything therefore Batkryptonian is prepared for it. Therefore Batkryptonian being prepared for his world being destroyed, survived it unscathed due to his own engineering and genius.

He then of course followed Clark to Earth and of course allowed him to be raised by the Kents because Batkryptonian is still a brooding guy with family issues and recognizes that Clark is better off raised by a real family rather than some weird guy in a costume. He then observes Clark’s entire life to make sure the other member of the last of his race is kept safe, and discovers that the Kryptonians have superpowers on this planet, but also weakness to kryptonite. So with the new information he plans and prepares for years around this, and in the modern day shows himself to Batman proclaiming that he is the superior Batman. Batman of course begs to differ and tries to use kryptonite on him, but Batkryptonian laughs it off! He lined his superhero costume with anti-kryptonite lining years ago after all. He is completely immune! and now has all Superman’s powers in addition to his Batman skills. He then defeats Batman with one punch and proclaims himself Batkryptonian: Master Batman.

But here is the thing, Batkryptonian didn’t save Krypton from being destroyed. He must’ve either chose not to even though he could or that he couldn’t prepare for it. But Batkryptonian being a Batman can prepare for anything! Therefore the Batkryptonian must be an enormous jerk who allowed Krypton to be destroyed even though he was perfectly capable of saving it and had a plan for saving it. However a jerk Batman isn’t truly a Batman, because Batman isn’t that big of a jerk. Therefore Batman got beaten by someone who isn’t Batman. Therefore Batman either lost to someone who isn’t Batman, or Batman cannot prepare for anything (like say, a planet being destroyed). Therefore its logically impossible for Bat-God to exist.

And even if Bat-God did exist, why hasn’t he helped his fellow superheroes patch up their weaknesses with a few good inventions? He could give Superman some anti-kryptonite costume then some anti-mind control implant so that Superman is under no threat of turning against anyone or getting knocked out of action by random glowing green rocks. For Green Lantern, he could give the guy devices to spray paint things green in a very short amount of time. and so on and so forth. If Bat-God can prepare for anything, why hasn’t he applied it to make sure he doesn’t have to beat his fellow heroes at all? An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure after all. Therefore even if Bat-God did exist, his efforts of godly preparation would be wasted on preparing for his fellow heroes to turn against him and thus needing to defeat them! It would in fact be better for him to prepare so that he doesn’t have to fight anyone at all! With prep-time he can do anything after all, so its logical to assume that he can prepare to make sure that no fight happens at all, meaning Bat-God would’ve prepared to solve all crime forever so that there is no need to fight anything, win and thus hang up the cape forever because he wins himself out being Batman. Even if Bat-God existed, he would solve things so much that he would stop existing or just be completely redundant. Thus Bat-God is self-defeating and self-eliminating by his very nature, because Batman can only exist in a world of crime and super-villains, and thus by defeating that, he defeats the existence of Batman, good for Bruce Wayne but not for Batman. Furthermore, if Bat-God is truly prep-time godlike, he can simply prepare to resurrect his parents. Thus defeating the point of Batman in yet another way. Don’t say he can’t do it: after all he had his entire life as prep-time to solve that problem.

So any way you slice it: Bat-God is logically impossible. His existence is dependent upon something he can solve instantly, and desires to solve instantly. He is in fact useless for solving anything of importance beyond taking out the villain of the week with whatever plot-gizmo he comes up with. Because if he was actually Bat-God he would change the world with his prep-time shenanigans. His prep-time powers would cure cancer and solve global climate warming and whatnot.

In short, Batman is nothing but DC Reed Richards. The only reason nerds like one over the other is because Batman has more style.

[Lurkmoar]

I prefer Killer Crocs story.

"I threw a ROCK at him!" /everyone stares at him in disbelief "It was a really big rock!"

But it was Batman the whole time....


In short, Batman is nothing but DC Reed Richards. The only reason nerds like one over the other is because Batman has more style.

But Batman doesn't treat his family like crap. Wait... he does.

He's not nearly as prolific an inventor as Reed Richards and he lacks super powers. He's also not going gray, so he has that going for him. And of course, truly different personalities. If I had to pin down a Reed Richards analogue, I'd say the Atom. The one that wasn't killed because he was a legacy... um, Ray Palmer?

[The Glyphstone]

Why are you trying to 'logically' disprove Batgod? The whole point of Batgod is that it's the result of fanboys, some of whom have become official Batman writers/artists/animators, stretching his capabilities to illogical limits. The only people logic will work on in the first place is the people who already recognize Batman isn't unstoppable.

[Lord Raziere]

Why are you trying to 'logically' disprove Batgod? The whole point of Batgod is that it's the result of fanboys, some of whom have become official Batman writers/artists/animators, stretching his capabilities to illogical limits. The only people logic will work on in the first place is the people who already recognize Batman isn't unstoppable.

Its just an idea I had while I was bored with no internet to access. I want to keep posting in this thread but couldn't, so I stewed in boredom until I typed down the reasoning and just had to post it after going to the trouble of typing it.

that and its the principle of holding to logic and reason over irrationality and extreme idol-worship. that and you never know if it will work until you try. better try and fail than not try if you might've succeeded.

[Traab]

But it was Batman the whole time....



But Batman doesn't treat his family like crap. Wait... he does.

He's not nearly as prolific an inventor as Reed Richards and he lacks super powers. He's also not going gray, so he has that going for him. And of course, truly different personalities. If I had to pin down a Reed Richards analogue, I'd say the Atom. The one that wasn't killed because he was a legacy... um, Ray Palmer?

Pfft, you dont think batman remembers the time croc "almost got him"?

[The Glyphstone]

Its just an idea I had while I was bored with no internet to access. I want to keep posting in this thread but couldn't, so I stewed in boredom until I typed down the reasoning and just had to post it after going to the trouble of typing it.

that and its the principle of holding to logic and reason over irrationality and extreme idol-worship. that and you never know if it will work until you try. better try and fail than not try if you might've succeeded.

Just getting it out of your system, then - I suppose that's healthy at least.

[TheThan]

Didn't it require a sharp mind, doing a lot of research, to figure out the exact nature of the Joker's chemical-tainting scheme in the Keaton Batman movie - and provide the appropriate recommendations?

Not really, but it’d take someone to consider that the joker has something up his sleeve and go digging in order to find it. If I recall correctly, the joker’s beauty products were not dangerous by themselves, it’s when you combine them that they become toxic and… kill you… I think that was they were supposed to do (or possibly disfigure you horribly... which is probably worse)

Once people start to show up dead or disfigured the cops are going to figure it out fairly quickly anyway. Unless the Gotham police force is just that lousy. I mean, It's pretty easy to connect the dots, all these people died by a chemical reaction on their face/head, they all used the same brand of beauty products, judging by both the compounds on their hair/skin and by the simple fact they all have the same brands in their bathroom. Maybe we should take a closer look a those products.

[Ravian]

*Bat-Kryptonian Snip*

The irony is there have actually been bat-kryptonians like you described. One was an else-worlds story that involved Kal-el crashing in Gotham to be adopted and raised by the Waynes. (instead of having their own child) When his adopted parents are murdered (which is kind of a fail on Clark Wayne's part considering the whole faster than a speeding bullet thing) he adopts the same mantle his alternate did and becomes a super-powered batman protecting Gotham city.

To be fair though that layout never really made much sense considering how different Batman's MO would be with Superman's powers. He might still like to do the scaring people angle, but he really doesn't go full-out with a bat costume when he has superman powers.

Other version is actually fairly canon. (At least pre new 52)

Krypton did have a batman, or at least Kandor did. Apparently Kal liked to cosplay as Batman in his spare time during the silver age, and dragged Jimmy Olson into being his Robin down in Kandor. Their names were Nightwing and Flamebird, and there have since been a number of subsequent duos taking the mantle. (And before you ask, yes Kryptonian Nightwing was actually an inspiration for *Richard* Grayson's solo career. Richard was going through a rebellious phase, and since Batman didn't approve of him hanging out with Superman, Grayson went to him for costume advice after he quit being Robin.

Added Irony: After the initial debut of Nightwing and Flamebird, some writers decided to tie the concepts into Kryptonian mythology. Only problem was that in the myths the two were essentially yin and yang, with Flamebird being female and Nightwing's mate. I suppose it's lucky they kept most of the subsequent versions of the duo opposite genders (including a stint where Clark and Lois took on the identity together) But it still implies rather interesting things about how Superman judged his relationship with Jimmy when he chose their Batman rip-off identities. (Or he may have just figured he'd need to copy the Dynamic duo's supposed relationship to keep the rip-off authentic. (Seriously though that is kind of creepy, like starting a superhero team named Isis and Osiris, and then giving your Best (Male Platonic and Heterosexual) friend the Isis role while you were Osiris.)

[Lord Raziere]

Oh comic books, you never cease to be weirder than my most crazy imaginings. even when I make up a hypothetical bat-kryptonian and a strange nonsensical story about how he survived Krypton and proceeded to kill Batman because he is a jerk, you still find a way to one-up me with something completely canonical. what was that quote? "There are more things in this world, Horatio than is dreamt in your philosophy"? something along those lines...

[Avilan the Grey]

It doesn't help that Bats is basically what keeps DC alive as a brand.

Yes, Supes might be more iconic, but it is Bats that brings in the $. This is why DC actually think that batifying everything and going back to 90s comic book style is a good idea.

[Hopeless]

Jor-El WAS the Batman of Krypton.
He sent his son to safety but chose to stay so whilst the Bat angst didn't get passed onto his son they do kind of have the same work hours even if Clark is way too nice compared to the troubled rich kid!
It was Batman Brave and the Bold that depicted Darkseid wrong, the JLU made it clear Batman fighting Darkseid IS suicidal that's how Batman survived the Apocalypse movie he only dodged Darkseid's Omega Beams which frankly was depicted as surprising as only Flash in the new 52 has pulled that off...
Same principles involved mind you, let it hit someone else or several others in Flash's case and you thought Batman was ruthless!

[Killer Angel]

Pfft, you dont think batman remembers the time croc "almost got him"?

of course he remembers it! Why do you think he likes so much planning now? That rock was scarily great! :smalltongue:

[Quild]

Flash wins, because...
https://38.media.tumblr.com/580c8e1dab447109cf4208feac482ce9/tumblr_mz200qarOF1qjn01ro7_250.gif
That's Lex :D

Anyway, Bruce wins. (www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kuk8WvVDVe4) And Clark can't!

[Devonix]

That's Lex :D

Anyway, Bruce wins. (www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kuk8WvVDVe4) And Clark can't!

Yes but Clark knew everyone's identity also. Wally, John and Diana were the only ones there that didn't know each others identity.

[Flickerdart]

That's Lex :D
Right, exactly - Flash's secret identity is so secret that even the world's smartest man doesn't know who he is when he's looking at his face.

[SiuiS]

That....is freaking hilarious. I'm trying my hardest to not cry from laughter at the moment. You're right, that is insanely ridiculous for such a claim to be made, one must wonder what exactly the producer for that particular cartoon was thinking.

Quite simply, that beyond a certain point people lose sense of scale.

I assume batman has been building s space station for decades by embezzling; paying extra pennies on the dollar on the books that are really going to secret bat projects. Secretly funded shell companies Adding small labor bits to sweatshop jobs.

It's Vtially very easy on paper to develop a sustainable level of "aha! That's how it was done", but what's the point? You'll either look at a world where Joker can use stolen money to secretly build robotnik's flying chair, lex luthor can develop super suits and find expensive space rocks, etcetera, and recognize that their world runs on much. Much more money than ours (probably due to "secret" intergalactic trade), or you won't.

If there's 100x more wealth in DC than reality, but but 95% of it is strictly thrown around by Whales who outclass entire nations, then it's all early out of the hands of real normal people, until you examine the system close enough to find a leak. Which would likely be the workers who do this stuff for this secret money, but hell. At this point batman is probably getting projects done by finding them illegally and having Lexcorp so the fabrication, and visa versa. Perfectly functional, closed and convoluted loop.