How "skillful" are you?

[skypse]

Hello giants! I was caught in a drunk conversation the other day around 6:30 AM with some friends and we had an issue that we wanted to solve. So I bring this issue to the best problem solvers in D&D and Pathfinder history:

BEHOLD

What is the maximum number of skill points a character can have at 10 level with standard WBL?
Rules:
1) ONLY Paizo Pathfinder material. NO 3rd party or 3.5 stuff.
2) You don't have to care about the other attributes but you can't have more than 2 attributes with a score of 8 and only 1 with a score of 7 (before racial mods ofc)
3) You are allowed to buy 1 item in half it's original price as if you crafted it.
4) Despite the fact that the character will be level 10, the build must be playable to be accepted by my stupid-hardcore-don't-know-how-to-lose friends of mine.

The ultimate goal is to have a character that is able to add a rank to EVERY skill (craft, profession and perform count as 1 each) in EVERY level.


EDIT: We need to have ranks. Direct skill bonuses from feats,traits,class/race features don't count. (except for favored class bonuses and traits that give ranks like human's skilled)
EDIT2: Versatile Performance is allowed after Yanisa and AvatarVecna proved it can be playable in a normal setting.
EDIT3: Seems like we are stuck at 23 skill ranks/level (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19057845&postcount=32). Great job Giants! Thank you all for your effort and let's come back here if we find a way to make this even higher!

[PsyBomb]

Baseline will be a Human Rogue with 20 Int, all FCB go to skill points. This gives 15 per level. Not enough for our end goal, but a benchmark.

EDIT: you can BARELY get a headband of intellect +6, which gives 3 more mastered ( choose three you haven't been training). By level 10, you have 2 more intelligence. So, 19 skills. I think that's enough?

[(Un)Inspired]

Build a race using pathfinders race creation rules using some ridiculously high number if race points and keep buying that +2 to int trait.

[AvatarVecna]

Are you looking for most skill points a character can get, or the highest total skill bonuses overall (like, where Skill Focus helps the challenge, for instance)?

EDIT: On top of what PsyBomb suggested, take the Advanced template and the Young Template; no change in CR, but +4 Intelligence.

[Yanisa]

I count 35 skills here. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills) So thats my goal.

Bard 10 levels works nice.
Add the Nemesis Story Feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/story-feats/nemesis-story).
Int 32: 18 (Base) + 2 (human) + 2 (level 4+8) + 6 headband + 2 (old age) + 2 (inherent).
The only dubious thing here is that we are counting on the completion of the Nemesis Story feat before the campaign starts. Then again this can be easily done in campaign as long as your DM allows it.

Which leads to 6 (base) + 1 (human) + 1 (favored class) + 11 (int) = 19 skill ranks per level

And before you go rogues get 8 ranks per level... well bards get versatile performance, with careful picking you can get 9 skills ranks for 3 ranks. Act (Bluff, Disguise), Dance (Acrobatics, Fly) and Oratory (Diplomacy, Sense Motive) don't need any instruments, so work the best for this.
This adds 6 new ranks, but 2 of those are preform and only 1 preform counts, so thats 4 which brings us at 23 ranks per level.

Leveling up
At starting level 14 you gain versatile performance Percussion (Handle Animal, Intimidate). Brings us up to 24 skills ranks.
Higher levels mean more wealth. Get 2 wishes for +2 int for 50k gold (doable at level 12+). Brings us up to 25 skills ranks.
Higher levels means you are getting older. Become venerable age and get another wish for twice +1 int. Brings us up to 26 skills ranks.

Shenanigans
If 3.5 material under the Pathfinder Companion name is allowed, published by Paizo, we get Finding Haleen (http://www.pathfindercommunity.net/traits/campaign-traits/legacy-of-fire-traits/finding-haleen) (or Finding your Kin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/campaign-traits/legacy-of-fire/finding-haleen)). Add +1 to rank per level.
If everyone favorite Third party Dreamscarred Press is allowed we get Open Minded (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/feats/open-minded). Add +1 to rank per level.
If templates are allowed: Advanced Template + Repeatedly Drained Vampire Spawn (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/vampire-spawn-repeatedly-drained-cr-1) gives us +4 int. Add +2 to ranks per level.

At this point your life is starting to become pretty sad. You are now a very old man that is constantly being blood drained by a vampire... Can you still call this is a living? It does bring the total up to 30 skills ranks per level.

A custom race using the race point system can net us another 3 skill ranks at 13 RP, which is viable for a PC. Brings us up to 33 skills ranks per level. It also leads to even less str/dex/con, because we didn't suck get sucked enough.



Build a race using pathfinders race creation rules using some ridiculously high number if race points and keep buying that +2 to int trait.

Lets see if I can do this round 10 RP
Paragon (1 RP) +4 int, -2 str, -2 dex, -2 con
Advanced Intelligence (4 RP) +6 int
Advanced Intelligence (5 RP) +8 int
Skilled (4 RP)
Negative Energy Affinity (–1 RP)

13 RP is doable for a player race, and this bad boy gets 6 int or 3 ranks over a human



Thanks to the people above and below this post for posting ideas I sneak edit back into this post. :smallbiggrin:



How do you feel about monster as player characters? We can cheat with that
For example a Caulborn (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/caulborn) as 25 int and 9 outsider HD for 7 LA. We can add 3 levels of bard on that... But wait, this critter gains 3 extra HD as per the monster as PC rules (1 hd per 3 levels), which brings it to 9 outsider hd + 6 bard levels.

Outsiders and bards both gain 6 skills per levels
Int gets to be 32 by 25 (base) + 1 (HD 12) + 6 (headband)
Which leads to 17 ranks... which is worse then my bard... It gets 2 versatile performances too, which bumps it up to 20. Still worse.

But this cheater gets 300 skills ranks at ECL 10, whereas the bard only got 210 skill ranks... Still not the 350 I aim for. :smallfrown: (Also this is a really weird interpretation of the goal, as its hit die should be the cap, but pffft)

And there must be better critters out there, I think, this was the first random high int outsider I found. But I am not sure if I should waste my time with this route.

[skypse]

@Psybomb: Nop. We are looking for 35 ranks/level.

@(Un)Inspired: Good idea but no. It must be playable and Paizo Pathfinder material only which means no homebrew as well.

@AvatarVecna: Ranks per level.

@Yanisa: We have to stick with the playable PC races unfortunately. Also, we are looking for maximum ranks not totals.

[Yanisa]

@Psybomb: Nop. We are looking for 35 ranks/level.

@(Un)Inspired: Good idea but no. It must be playable and Paizo Pathfinder material only which means no homebrew as well.

@AvatarVecna: Ranks per level.

@Yanisa: We have to stick with the playable PC races unfortunately. Also, we are looking for maximum ranks not totals.

How do you feel about counting versatile performance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard#TOC-Versatile-Performance-Ex-) btw? It's not technically ranks in a skills, its substituting. :smalltongue:

[AvatarVecna]

Race: Human
Templates: Advanced; Young
Levels: Rogue 10
Int: 32 (18 base+2 human+4 Advanced+2 level+6 headband)
Traits: Finding Your Kin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/campaign-traits/legacy-of-fire/finding-haleen) (note: this benefit operates separately from the Favored Class mechanic, so it stacks)
Feats: Open-Minded (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/feats/open-minded) (can't explicitly be taken more than once)

Skill Ranks per Level: 23 so far (8 Rogue+1 Human+11 Intelligence+1 Open-Minded+1 Favored Class: Rogue+1 Finding Your Kin). I'm gonna see if I can find some more, but barring 3.5 or 3rd party stuff, I doubt I'll succeed enough to meet your standards.

[skypse]

Well it saves you from putting ranks in 8 skills, but is it actually playable? I doubt there would be a bard holding guitars, keyboards, flutes and harps while also performing all the rest.

[Yanisa]

Traits: Finding Your Kin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/campaign-traits/legacy-of-fire/finding-haleen) (note: this benefit operates separately from the Favored Class mechanic, so it stacks)
Legacy of Fire is 3.5 (http://paizo.com/products/btpy8737), not Pathfinder... Well it is a Pathfinder Companion, confusingly.

Feats: Open-Minded (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/feats/open-minded) (can't explicitly be taken more than once)
Third party.

Yeah I found both of those myself too.

[AvatarVecna]

Well it saves you from putting ranks in 8 skills, but is it actually playable? I doubt there would be a bard holding guitars, keyboards, flutes and harps while also performing all the rest.

You don't take all the instrument ones, you take the ones that can work together. My suggestion is to take Dance, an oral perform (act, comedy, oratory, or singing), and an instrument that doesn't require your mouth (percussion, keyboard, or strings). There's got to be a combo there that doesn't grant the same skill multiple times.


-snip-

Okay, technically they don't work for this, although I'm sure that basically everybody considers Dreamscarred Press close enough to 1st party for government work. That said, I didn't realize Finding Your Kin wasn't technically Pathfinder. That's weird...oh well.

Once again, this gets so much easier if 3rd party is allowed, and ridiculously easy if 3.5 is allowed. Back to the drawing board.

[Yanisa]

Well it saves you from putting ranks in 8 skills, but is it actually playable? I doubt there would be a bard holding guitars, keyboards, flutes and harps while also performing all the rest.

You don't take all the instrument ones, you take the ones that can work together. My suggestion is to take Dance, an oral perform (act, comedy, oratory, or singing), and an instrument that doesn't require your mouth (percussion, keyboard, or strings). There's got to be a combo there that doesn't grant the same skill multiple times.

Act (Bluff, Disguise), Dance (Acrobatics, Fly) and Oratory (Diplomacy, Sense Motive) don't need any instruments. :smalltongue:

And at some point you get Percussion (Handle Animal, Intimidate) and need an instrument. After that point versatile performance does loose it return rate, if I remember correctly.

[AvatarVecna]

Act (Bluff, Disguise), Dance (Acrobatics, Fly) and Oratory (Diplomacy, Sense Motive) don't need any instruments. :smalltongue:

And at some point you get Percussion (Handle Animal, Intimidate) and need an instrument. After that point versatile performance does loose it return rate, if I remember correctly.

You're correct: I ran the numbers when I first found the PF Bard and fell in love; the most VPs you can get without any overlap is 3, and only if one of them is Dance.

[skypse]

OK since it does make sense VP is allowed. As for DSP sorry but I belong to that 1% that doesn't like 3rd party. And don't get me started in 3.5! Everything is possible if you combine 1500+ books/sources!

[Elric VIII]

Okay, so here's what I've come up with:

Assuming a 25 point buy you can gat an old age human with -3/-3/-3/+4/+2/+2.
A 25 point buy gives you:
Str: 5
Dex: 10
Con: 12
Int: 22
Wis: 10
Cha: 14

Take the finding your kin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/campaign-traits/legacy-of-fire/finding-haleen) and bruising intellect (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/social-traits/bruising-intellect) traits. That gives you an additional +1 skill point per level and allows you to intimidate with INT. Get the nemesis (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/story-feats/nemesis-story) feat at level 1 for an additional +1 skill point and complete it for a +2 inherent int bonus.
Throw in a headband of vast intelligence (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/headband-of-vast-intelligence) for a +6 enhancement to Int and max ranks in 3 skills, leaving you about 24000 gold left for other goodies.

So, to recap, we have 32 int (22 base, +2 leveling, +6 enhancement, +2 inherent) and a bonus 4 skill ranks per level (human, favored class, finding your kin, nemesis). That gives us 15 skill ranks to work with.

Throw that on a bard for 6 base ranks. Use the bard's versatile performance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard#TOC-Versatile-Performance-Ex-) to turn 3 perform skills (chosen at 2, 6, and 10) into more than full ranks in 6 other skills.

Now you've got 21 skill points per level, minus 2 wasted on extra perform skills, plus 6 pseudo-ranks from versatile performance. That brings us up to the equivalent of 25 skills maxed out.

If you can use the 3rd party, Psionics Unleashed feat open minded (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/feats/open-minded) you have 5 remaining feats slots to max out 5 more skills. This can get you up to a total of 24 skills with max ranks at 10, 2 extra perform skills with max ranks, and 6 skills with pseudo-max ranks.

This gives you the equivalent of 30/35 skills at max ranks while still sporting a playable bard.

EDIT: oh wow, swordsage'd so hard.

[AvatarVecna]

OK since it does make sense VP is allowed. As for DSP sorry but I belong to that 1% that doesn't like 3rd party. And don't get me started in 3.5! Everything is possible if you combine 1500+ books/sources!

Okay then, with the same build as before (with Bard instead of Rogue, and the illegal elements taken out), I think we can weasel 25 fully trained skills out of this. Not sure where we're going to find the other 10...

EDIT: Well, Old age gets another +2 Int, while Nemesis (see above) adds another 2 to Int, as well as another skill, making for a total of 29.

[Elric VIII]

Okay then, with the same build as before (with Bard instead of Rogue, and the illegal elements taken out), I think we can weasel 25 fully trained skills out of this. Not sure where we're going to find the other 10...

EDIT: Well, Old age gets another +2 Int, while Nemesis (see above) adds another 2 to Int, as well as another skill, making for a total of 29.

Can you be young, advanced, and old age all at the same time? :smalltongue:

[skypse]

Wow Elric very nice! However Finding your Kin is a trait from 3.5 AP which means it is out and the total drops to 24 which is still huge. Same with finding Haleen (or something like that). Psionics our out since they are 3rd party.

I think Avatar is at the top with 25? What about dropping the templates and use Venerable age instead as Elric did?

[AvatarVecna]

Can you be young, advanced, and old age all at the same time? :smalltongue:

No rule saying I can't. Sure, it doesn't make sense to be young and old at the same time, but it's not my fault that there's no age prerequisite for taking the Young template. :smallcool:

EDIT: Throwing in the suggestions by that guy, I got up to 29, or 27 if I take out the templates.

[skypse]

Young and venerable won't stack. You can still drop 1 level to get the Advanced if you think this is going to help but I doubt it. 27 is top now?

[Yanisa]

Wait! How does the Nemesis feat grant an extra skill point per level? :smallconfused: Unlike Finding Haleen (or Finding your Kin) it hasn't any wording to allows you to take the skill rank favored class bonus twice.

Not sure how we are getting above 25 skill ranks too?
Here's the recount:

I count 35 skills here. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills) So thats my goal.

Bard 10 levels works nice.
Add the nemesis fea (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/story-feats/nemesis-story)t.
Int 32: 18 (Base) + 2 (human) + 2 (level 4+8) + 6 headband + 2 (old age) + 2 (inherent). With some minor shenanigans. The completion of a story feat pre campaign sounds dubious at best.

Which leads to 6 (base) + 1 (human) + 1 (favored class) + 11 (int) = 19 skill ranks per level

And before you go rogues get 8 ranks per level... well bards get versatile performance, with careful picking you can get 9 skills ranks for 3 ranks which brings us at 25 virtual ranks. :smalltongue: Does include 3 performances though.

23 skills or 12 short.

23 skills... 25 with advanced, but then you are stuck to a maximum of 9 ranks at ECL 10. You can drop old age for the young template and get 24 skill ranks with 10 HD.

[skypse]

Point to Yanisa. Nemesis doesn't say anything about giving extra skill rank. It simply allows you to take a second favored class bonus that you have NOT already taken and it forces it to be either bonus hp or bonus rank.

EDIT: the Inherit bonus works backwards. When you complete the feat's quest, you get an extra +2 to INT which gives you +1 rank for every level so far.

[Elric VIII]

Wait! How does the Nemesis feat grant an extra skill point per rank? :smallconfused: Unlike Finding Haleen (or Finding your Kin) it hasn't any wording to allows you to take the skill rank favored class bonus twice.

Not sure how we are getting above 25 skill ranks too?

It's possible I misread it. "For each new level you gain in a favored class, including the level you gained when you chose this feat, you can choose two benefits instead of one. One of these benefits must be either a bonus hit point or a bonus skill point, even if other options are available."

It seems to me that you get to pick 2 bonus coices, which means you can choose a bonus skill rank twice.

[(Un)Inspired]

@Psybomb: Nop. We are looking for 35 ranks/level.

@(Un)Inspired: Good idea but no. It must be playable and Paizo Pathfinder material only which means no homebrew as well.

@AvatarVecna: Ranks per level.

@Yanisa: We have to stick with the playable PC races unfortunately. Also, we are looking for maximum ranks not totals.

The advanced Race Guide is a first party paizo book for pathfinder. I quoted no homebrew.

[AvatarVecna]

Wait! How does the Nemesis feat grant an extra skill point per level? :smallconfused: Unlike Finding Haleen (or Finding your Kin) it hasn't any wording to allows you to take the skill rank favored class bonus twice.

Not sure how we are getting above 25 skill ranks too?
Here's the recount:


23 skills... 25 with advanced, but then you are stuck to a maximum of 9 ranks at ECL 10. You can drop old age for the young template and get 24 skill ranks with 10 HD.

Me misreading. Let's get the full write-up in the thread just for the sake of it.

Race: Old Human
Templates: Advanced (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/advanced-creature-cr-1); Repeatedly Drained Vampire Spawn (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/vampire-spawn-repeatedly-drained-cr-1)
Stats (before adjustment, 20 pb): 8/8/15/18/13/7
Stats (after adjustment):8/8/11/30/19/9
Class: Bard 10
Int: 34 (18 base+2 Human+4 Advanced+2 Old+2 Level+2 Inherent+6 headband)

Skills: 27 (6 Bard+1 Human+1 Favored Class: Bard+13 Intelligence+6 Versatile Performance)

No, you don't need to be a vampire spawn to qualify for that template; all you need (by the fluff) is that a vampire has fed on you...and regularly gone too far when doing so.

EDIT: ...and yes, it's 1st party. Adding links just to help out.

[Yanisa]

Point to Yanisa. Nemesis doesn't say anything about giving extra skill rank. It simply allows you to take a second favored class bonus that you have NOT already taken and it forces it to be either bonus hp or bonus rank.

EDIT: the Inherit bonus works backwards. When you complete the feat's quest, you get an extra +2 to INT which gives you +1 rank for every level so far.

Int bonuses are always retroactive... that's the general rule in pathfinder. Favored class bonuses should be too (Fast Learner (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/fast-learner-human) is retroactive!) but Nemesis is being a mean feat and specifically disallows it.


It's possible I misread it. "For each new level you gain in a favored class, including the level you gained when you chose this feat, you can choose two benefits instead of one. One of these benefits must be either a bonus hit point or a bonus skill point, even if other options are available."

It seems to me that you get to pick 2 bonus coices, which means you can choose a bonus skill rank twice.

General rule says you cannot pick the same thing twice, unless it specially calls out it can be picked twice.

But I get what you mean, it's just a very lenient and uncommon reading... Which gets an "Ask your DM" seal of disapproval.

[skypse]

@(Un)Inspired: I know it is published from Paizo but creating your own race is as homebrew as it gets right? :smalltongue::smalltongue:

Nemesis doesn't stack with the extra skill point favored class bonus. However the +2 in INT gives a rank normally.

So far we have with a 25 point buy:
32 int (with or without the templates it seems like it stays at that point)
6 (bard)+1(human)+1(favored)+11(INT)=19. 3 of them go to specific Perform skills in order to substitute for 6 which gives us a total of 22. Is that our max?

Ninja'd.

However I have to disallow the Vampire Spawn thingy because from what I understand you need to have a bloodsucker all the time with you which unfortunately is generally unplayable.

[Yanisa]

Skills: 26 (6 Bard+1 Human+1 Favored Class: Bard+12 Intelligence+6 Versatile Performance)

Versatile Performance costs 3 ranks, and gives 9 back. Three of those are preform and only 1 preform counts. The 3 ranks spends are already calculated in your base skills ranks, which only means you gain 4 skills above your normal ranks due versatile performance.

[Ilorin Lorati]

It's a bad idea to do this and it's by no means "per level", but Human could take Racial Heritage (Half-Elf) and then Human Spirit for up to 4 extra ranks (a net bonus of 2 over Nemesis at 1st level until you complete it).

[AvatarVecna]

Is that our max?[/S]

I think so, at least as far as per level stuff goes. Beyond that, you could raise your total bonuses pretty high using other feats and traits and stuff.

[Yanisa]

I think so, at least as far as per level stuff goes. Beyond that, you could raise your total bonuses pretty high using other feats and traits and stuff.

Can some recheck my math? I end at 23 skills ranks per level with accepted shenanigans. 22 with no shenanigans, up to 28 with a lot of shenanigans.


I count 35 skills here. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills) So thats my goal.

Bard 10 levels works nice.
Add the Nemesis feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/story-feats/nemesis-story).
Int 32: 18 (Base) + 2 (human) + 2 (level 4+8) + 6 headband + 2 (old age) + 2 (inherent). With some minor shenanigans. The completion of a story feat pre campaign sounds dubious at best.

Which leads to 6 (base) + 1 (human) + 1 (favored class) + 11 (int) = 19 skill ranks per level

And before you go rogues get 8 ranks per level... well bards get versatile performance, with careful picking you can get 9 skills ranks for 3 ranks. Act (Bluff, Disguise), Dance (Acrobatics, Fly) and Oratory (Diplomacy, Sense Motive) don't need any instruments, so work the best for this.
This adds 6 new ranks, but 2 of those are preform and only 1 preform counts, so thats 4 which brings us at 23 ranks per level.

More shenanigans
At starting level 14 you gain versatile performance Percussion (Handle Animal, Intimidate). Brings us up to 24 skills ranks.
Instead of old age, Advanced Template + Young Template gives us +4 int instead of +2. Brings us up to 25 skills ranks.
Instead of the Young Template, we can get Repeatedly Drained Vampire Spawn (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/vampire-spawn-repeatedly-drained-cr-1) which means we can be old age again to gain back that +2 int. Brings us up to 26 skills ranks.

Outside Pathfinder shenanigans
When 3.5 material under the Pathfinder Companion name is allowed, published by Paizo, we get Finding Haleen (http://www.pathfindercommunity.net/traits/campaign-traits/legacy-of-fire-traits/finding-haleen) (or Finding your Kin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/campaign-traits/legacy-of-fire/finding-haleen)). Brings us up to 27 skills ranks.
When everyone favorite Third party Dreamscarred Press is allowed we get Open Minded (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/feats/open-minded). Brings us up to 28 skill ranks.

[skypse]

Versatile Performance costs 3 ranks, and gives 9 back. Three of those are preform and only 1 preform counts. The 3 ranks spends are already calculated in your base skills ranks, which only means you gain 4 skills above your normal ranks due versatile performance.

So we are looking at a solid 22-23 skill ranks per level and we have to use Human Bard.

[skypse]

So 23/35 skills per level. 24 if we are playing Legacy of Fire AP in Pathfinder.

[AvatarVecna]

Can some recheck my math? I end at 23 skills ranks per level with accepted shenanigans. 22 with no shenanigans, up to 28 with a lot of shenanigans.

With one exception, your math checks out. The exception: if we're allowed 3.5 stuff, then we can add template-stacking, Nymph's Kiss, and so on. 3.5 Open-Minded can be taken multiple times, for tons of extra ranks. Things like that.

[Yanisa]

With one exception, your math checks out. The exception: if we're allowed 3.5 stuff, then we can add template-stacking, Nymph's Kiss, and so on. 3.5 Open-Minded can be taken multiple times, for tons of extra ranks. Things like that.

I don't see Legacy of Fire as opening the gate way to all 3.5 material, it is still is paizo and pathfinder. And if you open that gate, do remember that 3.5 has a lot more skills. I counted once and ended at 135, 100 more then pathfinder. It is with a lot of professions though, but each profession did had a specific rule use.

Similarly I don't see used Dreamscarred press as opening the gates to all third party. Or using the costume race builder as opening the gates for all homebrew.

BTW with my our (and seriously, thanks everyone) best efforts and a lot of shenanigans I have reached 33 skills ranks per level... 2 short. :smallsigh:

Bard 10 levels works nice.
Add the Nemesis Story Feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/story-feats/nemesis-story).
Int 32: 18 (Base) + 2 (human) + 2 (level 4+8) + 6 headband + 2 (old age) + 2 (inherent).
The only dubious thing here is that we are counting on the completion of the Nemesis Story feat before the campaign starts. Then again this can be easily done in campaign as long as your DM allows it.

Which leads to 6 (base) + 1 (human) + 1 (favored class) + 11 (int) = 19 skill ranks per level

And before you go rogues get 8 ranks per level... well bards get versatile performance, with careful picking you can get 9 skills ranks for 3 ranks. Act (Bluff, Disguise), Dance (Acrobatics, Fly) and Oratory (Diplomacy, Sense Motive) don't need any instruments, so work the best for this.
This adds 6 new ranks, but 2 of those are preform and only 1 preform counts, so thats 4 which brings us at 23 ranks per level.

Leveling up
At starting level 14 you gain versatile performance Percussion (Handle Animal, Intimidate). Brings us up to 24 skills ranks.
Higher levels mean more wealth. Get 2 wishes for +2 int for 50k gold (doable at level 12+). Brings us up to 25 skills ranks.
Higher levels means you are getting older. Become venerable age and get another wish for twice +1 int. Brings us up to 26 skills ranks.

Shenanigans
When 3.5 material under the Pathfinder Companion name is allowed, published by Paizo, we get Finding Haleen (http://www.pathfindercommunity.net/traits/campaign-traits/legacy-of-fire-traits/finding-haleen) (or Finding your Kin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/campaign-traits/legacy-of-fire/finding-haleen)). Add +1 to rank per level.
When everyone favorite Third party Dreamscarred Press is allowed we get Open Minded (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/feats/open-minded). Add +1 to rank per level.
If templates are allowed: Advanced Template + Repeatedly Drained Vampire Spawn (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/vampire-spawn-repeatedly-drained-cr-1) gives us +4 int. Add +2 to ranks per level.

At this point your life is starting to become pretty sad. You are now a very old man that is constantly being blood drained by a vampire... Can you still call this is a living? It does bring the total up to 30 skills ranks per level.

A custom race using the race point system can net us another 3 skill ranks at 13 RP, which is viable for a PC. Brings us up to 33 skills ranks per level.


Build a race using pathfinders race creation rules using some ridiculously high number if race points and keep buying that +2 to int trait.

Lets see if I can do this round 10 RP
Paragon (1 RP) +4 int, -2 str, -2 dex, -2 con
Advanced Intelligence (4 RP) +6 int
Advanced Intelligence (5 RP) +8 int
Skilled (4 RP)
Negative Energy Affinity (–1 RP)

13 RP is doable for a player race, and this bad boy gets 6 int or 3 ranks over a human

[skypse]

Wow... A custom race, in deep old age that is getting constantly sucked by a vampire! I wish there were no skills at all in PF if that's the price you have to pay to catch them all!! :P

[(Un)Inspired]

@(Un)Inspired: I know it is published from Paizo but creating your own race is as homebrew as it gets right? :smalltongue::smalltongue:


Is it? I guess I just assumed that using first party rules printed in a first party book wasn't homebrew but I could be wrong. What does it mean for something to be homebrew?

[skypse]

Is it? I guess I just assumed that using first party rules printed in a first party book wasn't homebrew but I could be wrong. What does it mean for something to be homebrew?

Created/modified by a player. Not originally printed. That's what I understand of course. If for example you create a spell following the rules from Ultimate Magic, that spell is a homebrew spell. You can't use it on another campaign in which you didn't create it unless the DM gives you the ok.

[Thatwarforged]

Legacy of Fire is Pathfinder as far as I see. http://paizo.com/pathfinder/adventurePath/legacyOfFire, am I missing something?
That means that Finding your kin would be allowed as it is not 3.5 material.

[Ilorin Lorati]

Legacy of Fire is a Pathfinder Chronicles product, yes, but it predates the Pathfinder RPG and is OGL/3.5 content.

[(Un)Inspired]

Created/modified by a player. Not originally printed. That's what I understand of course. If for example you create a spell following the rules from Ultimate Magic, that spell is a homebrew spell. You can't use it on another campaign in which you didn't create it unless the DM gives you the ok.

Surely building a human wizard if an act of creating and adding feats and skill ranks to it as it levels up is a form of modification. It would seem that my hypothetical character falls under you definition of homebrew. My intuition tells me that typically, a by-the-book human wizard wouldn't count as homebrew but it seems to fall under the definition you have given for it.

[Yanisa]

Legacy of Fire is Pathfinder as far as I see. http://paizo.com/pathfinder/adventurePath/legacyOfFire, am I missing something?
That means that Finding your kin would be allowed as it is not 3.5 material.

Legacy of Fire is a Pathfinder Chronicles product, yes, but it predates the Pathfinder RPG and is OGL/3.5 content.

That why I link the Legacy of Fire Player's Guide (http://paizo.com/products/btpy8737?Pathfinder-Companion-Legacy-of-Fire-Players-Guide). On the top, above the title, it states:

Pathfinder® / Pathfinder Player Companion / 3.5

Also note the fact it does say Pathfinder, like twice, in the categories. It really is 3.5 pathfinder material.