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Redrhino10
2015-04-03, 05:15 PM
Okay so today I ran the fourth session in my short holiday campaign, but to add some variety I decided to include some more puzzle oriented elements.
I had planned exactly what the first puzzle was, and prepared some small hints too... unfortunately none of the group had any idea what the puzzles solution was.
The puzzle I was showing the players was a "Look and Say Sequence" puzzle where to open the door to the next room they had to work out the next number to get the code.

...........1 1
...........2 1
........1 2 1 1
.....1 1 1 2 1 1

The next number (solution) was
.....3 1 1 2 2 1

Half the players gave up in seconds (which really got on my nerves) and some tried and failed numerous times.

My players all got either annoyed they couldnt do it or angry because the whole issue wasted about 20 mins of game time.
I was going to let them bash or pick into the door but the players were being difficult so I just said they got it right despite being far from the right answer.

As you can see, I got very stressed during this and really want to include more puzzles and non-combat stuff but If it ends like this again I will give up completely!
In a situation where none of the players can solve the puzzle by themselves (and after giving hints based on skill checks) what is the best thing to do?

Zaq
2015-04-03, 06:13 PM
Whenever there's a pivot point in the game, you should aim to make it be such that both success and failure are interesting. (This is often phrased as "never pick up the dice unless both success and failure are interesting," but it goes a little beyond that.)

Basically, failing at a puzzle like this shouldn't be a dead end, and what's more, it's important that the players understand that it's not a dead end. What it's going to take for your group to understand that there's more than one way around the problem is going to be group-specific, but still, the players need to know that they're not just hopelessly stuck until they guess what the GM was thinking. Once they really grok that they can either try to solve the puzzle or try to find another way around it, they'll be much happier, because then they're only going to be doing the puzzle if they want to be doing the puzzle. If they try at it for a little while and just can't get it, they might feel frustrated or disappointed, but they're not going to feel trapped, and that makes a huge difference.

There isn't just one way of doing this, and the more variety you can put into it, the better.

Puzzles are always risky. Sometimes players will get the solution immediately, and sometimes they'll just plain never get it. It's extremely rare for a group to take exactly as long on a puzzle as the GM was expecting. Whenever you put a puzzle in the game, you should always have a backup plan in place, since you can never be sure that the players are going to be able to solve it (nor can you be sure that they won't solve it trivially).

It's also important to remember that the players are working with incomplete information, and that can be stressful. The GM is the source of 100% of the information the players have about the world and about the puzzle at hand. They can't look around with their eyes and notice clues or details. When you explain things to them, they might remember the less important parts and forget or half-remember the critical parts, just because human brains don't retain and process all information equally. (Sure, they might zero in on the key details right away, but there's no guarantee of that, and you can't rely on that.) If you were relying on the players making Knowledge checks to get key information, remember that they might not roll well on those Knowledge checks, and they might not be able to get all the information you were expecting them to get. And fundamentally, some players (no matter how smart they are) just don't deal well with the stress of dealing with a puzzle in a real-time group situation. For example, I generally like puzzles when I'm playing a video game or something like that, but when one comes up in D&D, I tend to panic. (Well, maybe panic is too strong a word, but I don't react well.) I either hyper-analyze the wrong details, or I miss things that are pretty obvious, or I'll forget about tools in my toolbox (or focus on the wrong tools), or I'll have a hard time focusing at all. I think of myself as being a pretty smart guy in general, but in that particular situation, I can't bring that smartness to bear in a consistent manner. And I know I'm not alone. It just doesn't come naturally to everyone, and that can be stressful.

There's no one right way of doing it. I certainly understand the urge to put puzzles and non-combat problem solving in the game, and I don't think it's a bad idea to do that. But you have to be very aware of your players when you do it, and you have to make sure that everyone's having a good time. What that's going to entail is going to change from group to group, but it's a different aspect of the game, and so it's going to be handled differently from the rest of the game.

I'm not sure if what I'm saying makes sense any more, so I'll stop there. I was probably rambling. Hopefully you can pull something useful out of that.

Gavran
2015-04-03, 07:10 PM
Not to rain on your efforts, but I think it's fair to say most gamers respond better to what I'm going to arbitrary call "informal puzzles" rather than "formal puzzles." By that I mean math, number, and formal logic puzzles (like yours or like this (https://www.physics.harvard.edu/uploads/files/undergrad/probweek/sol2.pdf)) generally harm immersion, whereas puzzles like those in the first Harry Potter book or guarding the entrance to Moria are better received?

Also important to note though, is that some players just don't like puzzles at all. Why not ask your players what / if any kind of puzzles they liked from other things?

Kimera757
2015-04-04, 07:18 AM
Okay so today I ran the fourth session in my short holiday campaign, but to add some variety I decided to include some more puzzle oriented elements.
I had planned exactly what the first puzzle was, and prepared some small hints too... unfortunately none of the group had any idea what the puzzles solution was.
The puzzle I was showing the players was a "Look and Say Sequence" puzzle where to open the door to the next room they had to work out the next number to get the code.

...........1 1
...........2 1
........1 2 1 1
.....1 1 1 2 1 1

The next number (solution) was
.....3 1 1 2 2 1

Half the players gave up in seconds (which really got on my nerves) and some tried and failed numerous times.

Many players do not like puzzles. You should know your players before you do something like that. I've seen a few groups where puzzles work, but even then half the group get glazed looks.

In a previous group the DM told me he playtested the puzzle with other people (gamers and non-gamers) who always seemed to get it, but the players couldn't get it in game. Performance anxiety, maybe? I dunno. We were all university students, and I don't think the less intelligent ones were playing in that particular campaign. The DM imposed a "fun" penalty, though: a hard combat. That got us more serious about solving the puzzle the second time (while we won, we knew we would probably lose a second fight that hard).

That kind of puzzle harms immersion too. Why would the bad guys or dungeon designers or whoever design a puzzle like that? All it takes is one smart opponent, and the puzzle is solved. (Or one dumb person on the designer's side and kerzap!) I noticed you said the PCs had to work out the next number to get through the door. Why not just kick it down or magic their way past it?


In a situation where none of the players can solve the puzzle by themselves (and after giving hints based on skill checks) what is the best thing to do?

Two of the PCs in my game have the answer. One can question the souls of the dead (paragon path ability) and another is a blackguard who can summon a Servant of Vice to get up to three answers (difficulty is up to me, but I usually stick pretty close to the hard skill DCs of the challenge level). The first PC is an invoker with a metric ton of skill-boosting abilities. Hilariously, he spent a minor action every turn last combat encounter to maintaining a +5 or so bonus to Religion... and yes, he needed to make that many Religion skill checks during combat.

Redrhino10
2015-04-04, 09:40 AM
First of all thanks for all the comments (Zaq in particular) It was all very helpful and insightful!

After asking the group afterwards, two players said they definitely want me to try again with the puzzles, two players said they don't want to be involved in the puzzles at all and the other two players are undecided. Ironically the characters they are playing reflect their choices here (the guys playing wizard and warlock are most keen on the puzzles) so at least the people who are interested have high intelligence and/or good skills to deal with puzzles.

I didnt think too much about the "harming immersion" part when planning the puzzle; the intention was the magic door was sealing a room which held a piece of a five part runic circle. The players have collected three pieces so far (the first two had been found by NPCs and the players used diplomacy skills to get them, the third was hidden in that room) so I intend on having two more locked away.

I know that the puzzle I tried was definitely not the right style of puzzle, and a puzzle with a more open ended answer would be more appropriate! If anyone has a specific suggestion on a "magic door" puzzle of some kind I would be very grateful for suggestions!

goto124
2015-04-04, 09:54 AM
If the players can't solve the puzzle, drop a guard monster or 2. Killing the monster lets you have the key to open the door.

... I'm not sure how good this idea is.

Keltest
2015-04-04, 11:27 AM
If the players can't solve the puzzle, drop a guard monster or 2. Killing the monster lets you have the key to open the door.

... I'm not sure how good this idea is.

Its functional, if somewhat boring, so long as they aren't squatting in front of the door itself waiting for adventurers. Otherwise it makes the riddle kind of pointless.

Another solution is to have an NPC be able to figure out the riddle's answer if the players get stuck. Preferably one who is readily accessible, either in person or through magical contact such that you can describe the riddle. The NPC will always get it (or not get it) in exactly the amount of time you require.

BluesEclipse
2015-04-04, 02:31 PM
I think part of the problem is also that your puzzle is incorrect.

It should be as follows:
1 1
2 1 (two 1s, per above row)
1 2 1 1 (one 1, one 2, two 1s)
1 1 1 2 2 1 (one 1, one 2, two 1s - this is where your error was)

The answer then would be
3 1 2 2 1 1 (three 1s, two 2s, one 1)

Any pattern based puzzle falls apart if there's an error in the pattern - and creates the idea of an "unsolvable" puzzle. That can turn players away from the idea as well.

Trevortni
2015-04-04, 02:34 PM
...........1 1
...........2 1
........1 2 1 1
.....1 1 1 2 1 1

The next number (solution) was
.....3 1 1 2 2 1


Aside from what everyone else has been saying about immersion, I've got to ask what the reasoning behind the puzzle was. If it's the same puzzle I've seen before, the fourth row should be

1 1 1 2 2 1

If you were intending the solution to be based on a verbal description of the previous line, then you might have accidentally handed them an unsolvable puzzle. Or you might have a completely different intention than I expected, in which case I'm interested in hearing it.

Thrawn4
2015-04-04, 04:37 PM
Just a few things...
Despite seeing the solution, I cannot understand the riddle, but that might just be me.
When introducing riddles, have a contingency plan ready (e. g. if they cannot solve it, there is another more difficult path, or someone else shows up and demands a price for the solution, or they can solve it via skill checks which take a lot of valuable time), so that solving the riddle is helpful but not necessary. At times that's difficult though.

Gavran
2015-04-04, 07:36 PM
Just a few things...
Despite seeing the solution, I cannot understand the riddle, but that might just be me.
When introducing riddles, have a contingency plan ready (e. g. if they cannot solve it, there is another more difficult path, or someone else shows up and demands a price for the solution, or they can solve it via skill checks which take a lot of valuable time), so that solving the riddle is helpful but not necessary. At times that's difficult though.

Me too, for whatever that's worth. I got it up once I looked up the riddle type though.

BayardSPSR
2015-04-05, 01:24 AM
A friend of mine showed me that puzzle last week - it had been introduced to her at her programming class. It took a classroom of programmers half an hour and multiple hints before one of them got the answer.

The problem with puzzles and riddles is that it's impossible to know how long it takes a group of people to figure it out. In fiction, there's often a prompt correct answer, but you can't expect that from real people. Sometimes you'll end up with a bunch of people feeling dumb because they couldn't figure out a simple puzzle, and one person feeling dumb because they couldn't make a puzzle someone could figure out.

veti
2015-04-05, 03:15 AM
Yeah, I couldn't figure out that puzzle either.

As a rule, I don't like puzzles. With few exceptions, they usually boil down to "read the DM's mind". And with even fewer exceptions, they just don't make narrative sense. Why would anyone, anywhere, ever, want to make "opening a door" contingent on the ability to solve a puzzle? Really, the only plausible explanation is an eccentric wizard playing silly beggars just for the sake of it, and the phrase "colossal waste of time" floats irresistibly across my mind.

Instead of puzzles, I suggest practical challenges. How to steal a sword from the lord's trophy room without anyone noticing it's missing. How to rescue the extremely fragile hostages from the trigger happy bandits. How to find that bard who's been making out with the lord's son, and what to do with him when we do. Something meaningful.

Thrawn4
2015-04-05, 05:12 AM
Some people just don't like mathematical riddles (it is mathematical, right?) but prefer other kinds.



As a rule, I don't like puzzles. With few exceptions, they usually boil down to "read the DM's mind". And with even fewer exceptions, they just don't make narrative sense. Why would anyone, anywhere, ever, want to make "opening a door" contingent on the ability to solve a puzzle? Really, the only plausible explanation is an eccentric wizard playing silly beggars just for the sake of it, and the phrase "colossal waste of time" floats irresistibly across my mind.

Instead of puzzles, I suggest practical challenges. How to steal a sword from the lord's trophy room without anyone noticing it's missing. How to rescue the extremely fragile hostages from the trigger happy bandits. How to find that bard who's been making out with the lord's son, and what to do with him when we do. Something meaningful.
Formal riddles can make sense in very specific circumstances, e. g. as a test of wisdom (I will make sure that whoever finds the ring of power will be wise enough to use it well) or if the riddle is tailored to a very specific group like your guild (e. g. players have to know some secrets that are usually not available) so that everyone in need may pass, or in a death maze that serves the amusement of the mad wizard.

But informal puzzles can be a lot of fun, too. (list of examples incoming)
An easy way to do so is too convey some seemingly unimportant bit of information in the beginning and make it important towards the end.
Then you have murder mysteries where players have to find and combine clues to reduce the number of suspects.
Another kind of riddles are parallels: give the players a solution for a problem (e. g. the recipe for a potion), and later on they encouter a similar problem and have to solve it in a similar but different way (e. g. find substitues for the ingredients: a different herb, hair from a bold man...).
Remember and combine: Give the players some information that might be valuable, but for them to get a reward they have to use it right (e. g. they find a secret plan, but they have to find out who is most interested in it)
Open situation: Just prepare a situation, e. g. a heist with a twist, and see how well the players prepare. You can split it up in minor riddles, too.

goto124
2015-04-05, 05:59 AM
I'm often afraid of a problem of hint-dropping, which is that the players don't remember it since they didn't even figure out it was important. Is the three clue rule enough to combat this?

Keltest
2015-04-05, 06:31 AM
I'm often afraid of a problem of hint-dropping, which is that the players don't remember it since they didn't even figure out it was important. Is the three clue rule enough to combat this?

In this case, probably not, unless all three of them are solved in the same way. However at that point you may as well just flat out tell them OOC that they should write it down so they can remember it.

Laserlight
2015-04-05, 03:25 PM
I've had riddles that worked well in game--but more often, riddles have been among the most frustrating moments of failed roleplaying. Not just formal riddles, but "situations-with-one-specific-solution".

One problem I have with riddles, as a player, is that I-the-player may get it, but my character wouldn't.

Example: In a superhero game, we had to fire a bullet down a tube to stop the deathtrap we were in, and none of us had guns. Heather could have mystically transformed into her secret identity, who was a cop-- but the rest of us only knew about the secret identity out of character, and even that was just a brief mention-in-passing some weeks prior to this encounter. It took maybe an hour of game time to figure out, and then I had to basically say "Gosh, It's Too Bad None Of Us Mystically Transform. Because If Any Of Us Did, And If That One Who Did Had A Secret Identity Who Habitually Carried A Gun, Then That Sure Would Solve Our Problem....Right, Heather?" I understand the desire to put a player in the spotlight but that was frustrating.

Another problem is when the GM wants/needs to give a hint and there's no in-character way to convey it, no clue for the characters to notice.

A third problem is when, as in OP's example and mine, the riddle just takes way too much game time.

A fourth, and the most exasperating, is when no alternate solution is possible--in my example, we tried "having the superstrong guy throw/putt something down the tube", but that wasn't The Solution The Scenario Book Had so it didn't work. By gum, if a player comes up with a workable solution that wasn't what you expected, you should say "YES!"

Redrhino10
2015-04-05, 04:26 PM
Firstly yes I made a pretty serious typo in my original post; sorry </3

The solution should read

........1 1
........2 1
.....1 2 1 1
..1 1 1 2 2 1
..3 1 2 2 1 1


Instead of puzzles, I suggest practical challenges. How to steal a sword from the lord's trophy room without anyone noticing it's missing. How to rescue the extremely fragile hostages from the trigger happy bandits. How to find that bard who's been making out with the lord's son, and what to do with him when we do. Something meaningful.

Really like this idea; I have a player who is playing a thieving rogue character so this will definitely be good for him!


Some people just don't like mathematical riddles (it is mathematical, right?) but prefer other kinds.

Its not "proper" maths but yeah I have realised this first hand... some people just dont do numbers under pressure like this at all


If the players can't solve the puzzle, drop a guard monster or 2. Killing the monster lets you have the key to open the door.

A simple concept which could work... I think this would be near last resort though?


I'm often afraid of a problem of hint-dropping, which is that the players don't remember it since they didn't even figure out it was important. Is the three clue rule enough to combat this?

I didnt want to hint drop until the players got stuck... problem was they got stuck fast; and my hints simply didn't guide the players in the right direction.


One problem I have with riddles, as a player, is that I-the-player may get it, but my character wouldn't.
A third problem is when, as in OP's example and mine, the riddle just takes way too much game time. Fortunately each player has basically gone for a "self insert" character; the people who are normally good at maths/puzzles have chosen characters that are good at them. Also the time thing is an issue for any puzzle it seems; either it takes too long or no time atall!


you may as well just flat out tell them OOC that they should write it down so they can remember it. I told the players to write the puzzle down to help them solve it. They did also write my hints down too but I guess it didnt help too much in the end after all.

Thanks for all the input; I am confident I can make puzzles work at some point! I will be building on all these suggestions for my next session! If anyone has actual puzzle suggestions that have worked well (or could have done!) then please feel free to post here! Thanks so much, glad there is such an active community here! - DM Tom

BurgerBeast
2015-04-05, 05:45 PM
I personally love puzzles and love to include them in my games, but (1) I don't play as often as I like and (2) the success varies.

One puzzle I used recently was during boss fight, the boss used a power that popped the party into a parallel dimension with a puzzle inscribed on the stone floor and 3 undead creatures that started attacking them. They soon discovered that every two rounds, another enemy would arrive. Any PC that studied the puzzle for a round would get to look at the puzzle on a piece of paper for 6 seconds and on a successful knowledge check would get an additional hint (in this case the puzzle was a cipher so I would give them one letter in the puzzle).

I have a few tips that I think have helped me:

(1) make the puzzle familiar (use kinds of puzzles they've seen before) and easy. As PCs solve puzzles, they'll gain confidence. Introduce similar problems that are a little more difficult (this is a slow process).

(2) Give at least three hints. No matter how easy you think the puzzle is, give at least three hints that can't be missed before the PCs are faced with the puzzle. You can include more hints to encourage PCs who pay attention to little details along the way.

(3) Redress the puzzle. Make it have a campaign specific theme. Maybe your puzzle is written in the Elven script (show them a paper with the Elven symbols instead of the Arabic numerals), so a character who reads Elven can see that it's actually a numeric code. Maybe instead of matching animals pictures they match the pictures of the gods in your campaign. If they need a hint maybe there's a subtle difference in the way elves write the numeral two and the quantity two, so they get a hint about the underlying logic.

(4) Have more going on. If there a monsters in the room or the room is filling with water, the players who don't like puzzles can stay occupied while the ones who like puzzles try to solve it. This also provides motivation to solve the puzzle.

(5) As was mentioned earlier, every "problem" the PCs face should have at least three obvious solutions. If you use the puzzle as a roadblock, there should be other ways around it. But that doesn't meant you can't give extra rewards if they solve the puzzle.

Just my two cents. Hope it helps.

Laserlight
2015-04-05, 09:35 PM
If anyone has actual puzzle suggestions that have worked well (or could have done!) then please feel free to post here! Thanks so much, glad there is such an active community here! - DM Tom

My main suggestion is "give incentives for what you want people to do." That means "if you want them to solve puzzles, give them XP or loot or something when they do", and if you want them to solve them cleverly, let the clever solution work.

As for a sample that we had in our campaign:

Two players, king and jester. Six cups of poison, of increasing lethality. The only thing that cures a lower poison is a higher one. The king will give the jester a cup; the jester will drink it, and then drink a cup of his own; similarly, the jester will give the king a cup, and the king will drink that and then one of his own. The king chooses first, and takes cups 2 4 6, leaving the jester with 1 3 5. They each take their three cups into adjacent rooms, so no one can see which they select; then they meet and exchange cups. The king dies, the jester does not. How did the jester survive?

The jester gave the king a cup of wine. The king took Cup 6; since he hadn't had any poison for it to neutralize, it killed him. The jester took his Cup 5 to neutralize the Cup 4 the king had given him. (Two of our eight players solved this in about 10 seconds),

Maglubiyet
2015-04-05, 11:02 PM
Unless you're also testing applicants for Mensa, maybe you should stick to easier puzzles. Not everyone is even capable of doing those kinds of mental gymnastics, much less is good at it. Of course, you know your players best.

You could drop hints ahead of time, before the adventurers even leave, that they may need to solve a puzzle to achieve whatever goal they're setting out to do. Give someone a chance to research and come up with an idea of the nature of the puzzle and maybe even a partial solution.

And really, how many characters in a fantasy world would realistically be able to solve something like this? Your players in a post-industrial digital world of online brainteasers, who have likely had close to two decades of education, sitting in a well-lit room had trouble. How likely are people whose job description amounts to "cleaver of flesh" to be able to think something like this through -- especially in a dank, dark hole underground when they're going on little sleep and are nursing wounds?

goto124
2015-04-05, 11:29 PM
Reminds me of a wonderful comic... (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=680)

Thrawn4
2015-04-06, 04:41 AM
My main suggestion is "give incentives for what you want people to do." That means "if you want them to solve puzzles, give them XP or loot or something when they do", and if you want them to solve them cleverly, let the clever solution work.

As for a sample that we had in our campaign:

Two players, king and jester. Six cups of poison, of increasing lethality. The only thing that cures a lower poison is a higher one. The king will give the jester a cup; the jester will drink it, and then drink a cup of his own; similarly, the jester will give the king a cup, and the king will drink that and then one of his own. The king chooses first, and takes cups 2 4 6, leaving the jester with 1 3 5. They each take their three cups into adjacent rooms, so no one can see which they select; then they meet and exchange cups. The king dies, the jester does not. How did the jester survive?

The jester gave the king a cup of wine. The king took Cup 6; since he hadn't had any poison for it to neutralize, it killed him. The jester took his Cup 5 to neutralize the Cup 4 the king had given him. (Two of our eight players solved this in about 10 seconds),
Needs some clarification, e. g. everyone has to empty the cup, but otherwise it's nice.

Let's see...
the character's stumble upon the plans of BBEG. Later on they find out about the plans of another evil NPC who is helping the BBEG. If they compare those plans they realize that those two don't mix, and if they prove it the BBEG loses an ally.
an important character has to stay home but does not want to (wants to do something that is dangerous, although he might not realize that). one of the NPC's asks the PC's whether this is about his condition, but soon shuts his mouth. now the PC's have to find out that the important character is allergic to something and how to mix it in his food.
NPC has trouble to remember things, so he writes down notes only he ought to understand so he can find his keys

Joe the Rat
2015-04-06, 07:57 AM
Puzzles and Riddles (Which are pretty much wordplay puzzles) are a mainstay of action and fantasy genres, but a dodgy proposition to gaming. And it's longstanding stuff. Anyone remember that ridiculous magic mouth puzzle from the BECMI red box? Double or nothing, what comes next: O, T, T, F, F, S, S, E, __?


Poison Puzzle This kind of puzzle borders on moon logic. The solution is out of context to the given information, but totally fitting to real-world solutions. This is one of the traps. We tend to assume the solution to puzzles is somewhere in the given pieces, rather than treating it like a mystery and looking for clues in the broader context.

I'm Chaotic Neutral on Puzzles. I'm either the guy that's all over solving them, or I'm the guy that wants nothing to do with them. So I tend to tread lightly on their usage. But here are some approaches that have worked reasonably well for me from both sides of the screen:


Solve the Gate or Fight the Gatekeeper: Success makes things easier, Failure means a more difficult path. Puzzle Bosses work something like this: Winnable, but easier if you know the trick. And yes, if you are playing a killing things for XP game, give them XP for getting the right solution.
Piecing the Puzzle Together: Combining elements in the right order/locations to pass a challenge. This one often ends up with exploration to find the pieces as part of the challenge. This works best if you allow multiple chances at the right combination. They key here is that the "right" combination should be fairly clear: each room has half a limerick, you need to collect the random dirty punchlines scattered about the dungeon and get the horrible groaners lined up correctly to open the hidden chamber.
Clues abound: If a puzzle or riddle is the centerpiece of a session, add some hints as to what is going on. Patterns or sequences in the architecture. Hints dropped by the locals. clues scattered about the dungeon that, when all put together, gives you the entire solution, but having part of the solution may give you enough hints that it's still solvable.
Bat-Deduction Solutions: If the party comes up with a solution that is internally consistent and follows from the given clues, even if it is out of joint with reality (or the reality of the game world), consider letting it pass. This is particularly good for riddles or problems with a living gatekeeper - particularly one who doesn't have the solution, but is trying to find one.
Skill Check Solutions / Skill Check Hints: Talk about immersion-breaking. If you have made the puzzle a must-solve, and your players are coming back with blank stares and cricket noises, have them roll dice to get hints, or for a flat-out solution. If you use this on a regular basis (and once you make that roll once, players will expect the option later), be clear that fewer hints from the GM means greater rewards for passing.

Redrhino10
2015-04-07, 04:05 AM
Double or nothing, what comes next: O, T, T, F, F, S, S, E, __? Love this puzzle, simple but interesting!

N for Nine!

I need more of this kind of thing; short and sweet puzzles which I can manipulate to fit a scenario such as a magic door or ruin!

JCAll
2015-04-07, 05:06 AM
Love this puzzle, simple but interesting!

N for Nine!

I need more of this kind of thing; short and sweet puzzles which I can manipulate to fit a scenario such as a magic door or ruin!

You have to be careful with those types of puzzles too.

D,D,S,S,G,H,?
It's B, because it's the 7 dwarfs.
I once saw a actual TV gameshow crash to a halt with that one.
It was embarrassing.

caden_varn
2015-04-07, 06:41 AM
Well, after spending a few minutes on the puzzle I don't have the first clue how to derive the answer, even when I have the answer, so I feel for your players to be honest. I do agree that putting this kind of puzzle in a game is risky, and forcing them to solve it (rather than finding a way to bypass it) sounds a bit railroady to me.

But the main reason I posted was to ask some kind soul to post a spoiler with the logic behind the solution? I am mildly intrigued but am getting nowhere.

Keltest
2015-04-07, 06:50 AM
Well, after spending a few minutes on the puzzle I don't have the first clue how to derive the answer, even when I have the answer, so I feel for your players to be honest. I do agree that putting this kind of puzzle in a game is risky, and forcing them to solve it (rather than finding a way to bypass it) sounds a bit railroady to me.

But the main reason I posted was to ask some kind soul to post a spoiler with the logic behind the solution? I am mildly intrigued but am getting nowhere.

Speak out loud the number of each digit in a row. So for example the first line has two ones. So the next line becomes 2 1. So now it has One Two and One One. So the third line becomes 1 2 1 1.

caden_varn
2015-04-07, 08:50 AM
Speak out loud the number of each digit in a row. So for example the first line has two ones. So the next line becomes 2 1. So now it has One Two and One One. So the third line becomes 1 2 1 1.

Oookay - I suspect I would have needed a whole lot of heavy handed hints to get that one (it took me 3 readings of your explanation before that sank in). I was looking for something more mathematical.

Thanks for the explanation Keltest. I'll go and rest my age-rotted brain in the corner :smallsmile:

veti
2015-04-09, 09:39 PM
You have to be careful with those types of puzzles too.

D,D,S,S,G,H,?
It's B, because it's the 7 dwarfs.
I once saw a actual TV gameshow crash to a halt with that one.
It was embarrassing.

Unless there was an explicit Disney theme to the quiz - that's ridiculous. I, for one, couldn't answer that even if you'd spelled out the names. Just the letters out of context - could mean anything. Deadly Sins in Latin. Days of the week in Hungarian. Numbers in the Fibonacci series spelled out in Italian. Elements in the 3rd column of the Periodic Table. (Note, I have no idea if any of these matches those letters, these are just examples to illustrate just how random that puzzle is, without context.)

That's an excellent example of what I meant by "puzzles that expect you to read someone's mind".

Sith_Happens
2015-04-10, 01:59 AM
I think part of the problem is also that your puzzle is incorrect.

It should be as follows:
1 1
2 1 (two 1s, per above row)
1 2 1 1 (one 1, one 2, two 1s)
1 1 1 2 2 1 (one 1, one 2, two 1s - this is where your error was)

The answer then would be
3 1 2 2 1 1 (three 1s, two 2s, one 1)

Really? That's the solution? It's one of those puzzles? Of course. Because it's totally reasonable to expect me to befoul my mathematical mind by treating a string of numbers as a language puzzle.:smallfurious:


This kind of puzzle borders on moon logic. The solution is out of context to the given information, but totally fitting to real-world solutions.

It's also immediately obvious to anyone who's seen The Princess Bride.:smallamused:

JCAll
2015-04-10, 03:02 AM
There's a reason The Riddler is considered one of Batman's most dangerous villains, despite just being a scrawny little guy in pajamas and a bowler hat.

Maglubiyet
2015-04-10, 06:23 PM
Really? That's the solution? It's one of those puzzles? Of course. Because it's totally reasonable to expect me to befoul my mathematical mind by treating a string of numbers as a language puzzle.:smallfurious:

The really maddening ones are the ones that are language-dependent. Like the OOTTTTFF...

If English (or whatever) isn't your first language, you might be in trouble.

GungHo
2015-04-13, 09:42 AM
With puzzles or even riddles, you really have to make a decision as to whether or not you're testing the player's ability to pass a thought experiment or a character's. If I've rolled up a genius wizard who can do draconic calculus in his sleep, he (and his party) shouldn't be penalized just because I couldn't get Algebra 2. Likewise, if I have a Ph.D. in Geologic Modeling, my too-stupid-to-tie-shoes barbarian isn't going to understand seismic wave propagation and be able to find gold veins by hitting the wall.

You also need to know your audience. Some folks like this sort of thing, even if it becomes a test of the player and not the character. Some folks hate them with a passion, even if they're good at them.

Now, if my character is ostensibly me "with powers", this is a whole different ballgame.

tyckspoon
2015-04-13, 11:24 AM
A fourth, and the most exasperating, is when no alternate solution is possible--in my example, we tried "having the superstrong guy throw/putt something down the tube", but that wasn't The Solution The Scenario Book Had so it didn't work. By gum, if a player comes up with a workable solution that wasn't what you expected, you should say "YES!"

I want to second this. Don't get too attached to The Right Answer (and more importantly, if you're writing your own riddles, don't get too attached to the solution you came up with. This can be a really hard thing to learn to let go.) Did your players make an honest effort to come up with an answer? Is the logic behind their answer reasonably sound? For example, with the given puzzle in the thread; did they treat it as a mathematical puzzle and come up with an answer that fits the given information, which will probably not be the same as the 'correct' one? Well, then congratulations, they solved the puzzle! Unless the specific answer is going to be relevant later on (eg, it forms a plot-relevant clue for some later usage) then the purpose of the puzzle isn't to get the players to determine that particular answer. It's to get them to engage in a mental challenge for a period of time. If they've done that and come up with something that seems like a decent answer, then the puzzle has served its purpose in the adventure and there's no further purpose to forcing them to keep trying past the point of frustration just to get the 'right' answer.

Telok
2015-04-13, 06:28 PM
I once got handed a riddle that involved knights staying in and inn in the night and how many *ights got stayed in. The guy had modified some cowboy/saloon riddle he'd heard. He also assumed that since I was good at math, easily solved 3d and hand puzzles, and enjoyed reading books of puns and limericks that I'd be able to easily solve this. After twenty minutes of me making him repeat it, nailing down knight/night and in/inn, and starting a formal written analysis... He gave up.

My personal rules for puzzles in a game are as follows.
1: It is not required to solve the puzzle.
This can be related to plot advancement, character rewards, anything. The puzzle must be optional. The way around the puzzle may be harder, hidden, slower, or more dangerous, but the puzzle can be bypassed.
2: Several obvious clues that you describe. A perfectly flat wall in a natural cave. Humanoid tracks with no evidence of habitation. The local wildlife acts oddly tame and follow the party around.
3: Several clues that work off of abilities written on the character sheet. This guy gets a free search check when passing a secret door. That guy has a super keen sense of smell. Her character detects anything magical withing a few feet of her. His character is a geologist who can get a free check to know that those two types of rock never occur togather naturally.
4: Plan for failure. Expect every clue to be missed, every roll to fail, the players have never heard of that type of puzzle, your critical npc to get murdered because someone didn't like his hair color. Plan to give them a bumbling lieutenant with half a map to the secret hideout. Have the guy that does maintence on the doomsday weapon come back from the potty and get caught. They didn't find the secret door so fifty skeletons come out of it and attack.
5: Let the creative and cool solution pass or bypass the puzzle even if it shouldn't.

Everyone is there to have fun. If it stops being fun, skip it, ignore it, or blow it up.

Redrhino10
2015-04-14, 12:07 PM
Everyone is there to have fun. If it stops being fun, skip it, ignore it, or blow it up.

There is definitely alot of truth to this, made me laugh too ;)

I have given the whole subject a lot of thought, and I do still plan to run puzzles in my campaign! I have removed all the puzzles that cannot either be solved easily and most of the puzzles with 1 set answer.
Each puzzle I have planned also has alternative ways of solving it. For example, I have planned a tiled bridge which looks like this:

┏‒┳‒┓
┃2┃4┃
┣‒╋‒┫
┃3┃7┃
┣‒╋‒┫
┃7┃6┃
┣‒╋‒┫
┃5┃1┃
┣‒╋‒┫
┃2┃4┃
┣‒╋‒┫
┃1┃3┃
┗‒┻‒┛

You start at the bottom and you must cross to the top to safely pass.

The riddle that goes with this puzzle reads as follows:

These numbers are important, but their values are not
Your solution is straight, but your path is not...

The tiles are all wooden platforms on hinges, which will fall if you step on the wrong tile. If the players solve the puzzle then they can safely cross. However if they are stuck I can offer the following hints:

Dungeoneering/Perception Check - After close examination of the hinges, you can see the hinges on the 3 are very worn out and used, but the hinges on the 1 tile don't appear to ever have been used. This suggests the 1 tile is safe and the 3 tile is not!

Acrobatics/Athletics Check - The player tests one of the first two tiles, and if the tile falls the other characters can catch the player before he/she falls. The players could use this technique to cross the whole puzzle if they really are stuck.

Thievery Check (Our thief loves to overuse this skill!!) - The thief jams the hinges shut, each one taking 10 minutes. This is a very last resort solution but if solving it doesnt work, use force!

Any skill check which could be used to decipher the riddles meaning! (would require good RP from the players to get this hint) - The riddle seems to tell you that the important part is not the numbers value, but the symbols themselves. Treat them as shapes and think about what the "straight" solution means!


If anyone wants the solution, I will also post it. Try and give the puzzle a go before looking! I have also play tested this puzzle with the family and they all did manage to get it.

The path the players must take to pass safely is to only step on the "Straight" numbers. These numbers include 1, 4 and 7. The other numbers all include curved lines. Therefore the final solution is 1,4,1,7,7,4

I would love feedback on this trap puzzle! I spent alot of time planning this, and if anything doesnt seem clear at first please say so I can improve it!

Lord Torath
2015-04-14, 12:31 PM
<snip bridge puzzle>I'd say this is a good puzzle. If they get completely fed up with it, there are multiple ways to get around it. They could use any of your listed solutions, or take some doors off their hinges and cover the tiles. Or they can fly across. Or swing on a rope. They are rewarded for solving the puzzle (reduced time spent watching, less chance of wandering monsters, no magical resources expended), but are not required to do so. Thumbs up from me!

Demidos
2015-04-14, 12:46 PM
The Bridge Puzzle


Some mention of whether or not diagonals are possible would be quite helpful... I got stuck on the fact that I was trying to go in straight lines between tiles

Keltest
2015-04-14, 12:55 PM
Some mention of whether or not diagonals are possible would be quite helpful... I got stuck on the fact that I was trying to go in straight lines between tiles

They would pretty much have to be. Theres no way to solve the riddle as written otherwise.

CombatBunny
2015-04-14, 12:56 PM
There is definitely alot of truth to this, made me laugh too ;)

I have given the whole subject a lot of thought, and I do still plan to run puzzles in my campaign! I have removed all the puzzles that cannot either be solved easily and most of the puzzles with 1 set answer.
Each puzzle I have planned also has alternative ways of solving it. For example, I have planned a tiled bridge which looks like this...



Excellent! I was going to comment on this one, but you have already learned how to properly design puzzles for roleplaying games.

Remember that roleplaying games are mostly to roleplay, they shouldn’t need you to be strong, smart or cunning. In fact, many people play RPG’s to be someone that they can’t in real life, so I think that if I’m not good at maths and numbers in real life, but I would like to portray someone that does, there’s no reason I shouldn’t be allowed to create such a character. Why couldn’t I just put my character a high-score on wisdom, and be able to roll and get the GM pass me a note with the answer or a hint? Then I can properly ROLEPLAY how my character struggles to get to the solution.

The same should be true to social skills. Yes, the GM should be flexible to let the player’s use their own skills on certain situations, but it shouldn’t be the only way to get out of a problem, and a character with a high-score on intellectual and social skills should be allowed to use them. Otherwise you are forcing everyone to power-play. If I know I’m witty and charming, I would invest all of my character points on Strength, and handle every social or intellectual situation with my own abilities, and the GM can’t accuse me of ignoring my stats and not acting accordingly, because he is ignoring them when he sees fit. It’s all about coherence and balance.

Segev
2015-04-15, 02:59 PM
While a riddle or puzzle CAN be fun, it's important to remember that, in the end, players are not their characters. Therefore, just as you wouldn't allow the organic chemist at your table to have his medieval man-at-arms refine plastics from oil, you shouldn't "allow" your Mensa candidate player solve the math puzzle with his dumb-as-rocks half-ogre barbarian.

Likewise, just as you wouldn't expect your 400-lb overeater who gets breathless walking to the 'fridge and back to actually run after a running horse to test to see if his fleet-footed indian brave can do so, you shouldn't expect the guy who needs a calculator to remember how to multiply by 10 to solve the math puzzle before his super-genius mad scientist who does multidimentional analysis as a morning thought experiment can do so.

When you set up a situation for that indian brave to chase down a horse, you don't create a physical horse or model thereof and test the players' skill at actually catching it. Similarly, when you set up a puzzle or riddle or the like, treat any actual riddle or puzzle as a prop. Make it a GAME-RELATED challenge to solve.

And, if you have your mensa candidate and your can't-multiply-by-10 player at the same table, and mensa-candidate knows the answer, let can't-multiply-by-10-guy roll his character's intelligence, and have Mensa guy tell him if he rolls high enough.

veti
2015-04-15, 06:20 PM
The riddle that goes with this puzzle reads as follows:

These numbers are important, but their values are not
Your solution is straight, but your path is not...

Who built this bridge, and why? Who left this clue, and why? Who were they trying to keep away, who did they want to let in, and whatever made them imagine that the ability to solve this riddle would be a good way of differentiating between the two?

If you can't come up with a better answer than "eccentric builder messing around for the sheer fun of it", I'm going to track you down and shoot you with a nerf gun.

Keltest
2015-04-15, 06:29 PM
Who built this bridge, and why? Who left this clue, and why? Who were they trying to keep away, who did they want to let in, and whatever made them imagine that the ability to solve this riddle would be a good way of differentiating between the two?

If you can't come up with a better answer than "eccentric builder messing around for the sheer fun of it", I'm going to track you down and shoot you with a nerf gun.

Im going to say it was a sadistic half-gnome half-dwarf illusionist with an abundance of leftover hinges and a fascination for the effects of gravity on people who aren't sadistic half-gnome half-dwarf illusionists.

Nightcanon
2015-04-16, 05:56 PM
Firstly yes I made a pretty serious typo in my original post; sorry </3

The solution should read

........1 1
........2 1
.....1 2 1 1
..1 1 1 2 2 1
..3 1 2 2 1 1

I told the players to write the puzzle down to help them solve it. They did also write my hints down too but I guess it didnt help too much in the end after all.Thanks for all the input; I am confident I can make puzzles work at some point! I will be building on all these suggestions for my next session! If anyone has actual puzzle suggestions that have worked well (or could have done!) then please feel free to post here! Thanks so much, glad there is such an active community here! - DM Tom
Not sure I'd have found writing it down again much help- my first thought on looking at it was that it looked like it might me some kind of variant of the Fibonacci sequence. Just saying the numbers aloud repeatedly would probably help me realise sooner that each line describes the one above.
I agree with those who say that you need some logical rationale to include puzzles, especially if they rely on player intellect rather than in-character abilities or knowledge.