Optimization of a LVL 20 3.5 DND Wizard

[NorseFox]

I am working on a small campaign that I am running for my family. I am trying to optimize a 3.5 lvl 20 Wizard with a CE alignment. It has to be from the 3.5 books. His personality is pretty slimy. He has the entire city in his pocket and on the surface he is the most kind hearted man you will ever meet. I have tried to do this myself but I am not the best at working with that high of a level or making a caster.


*EDIT* I am not going to want this Wizard to be able to be beaten by my party really no matter how optimized he is. I am going to be wanting this man to take over the world. To beat him the group would need to bring the other lvl 20 NPCs for them. I do not plan on them making it to lvl 20 before the end of this story because I am going to be working on a different campaign that is after the ending of this one for new characters because our group does not like going past 20.

[sideswipe]

how 3.5? core only? core + completes? all first party? drag mag? all third party wizards approved?

this is really important, not really for spells but for feats and ACF's

edit- also how cheesy (questionable optimisation for way more power or stuff a DM would never allow) do you want your wizard? American cheese, mature cheddar or Gouda?


He has the entire city in his pocket

also please say this is literal :smallwink:

[NorseFox]

how 3.5? core only? core + completes? all first party? drag mag? all third party wizards approved?

this is really important, not really for spells but for feats and ACF's
All First party, 3.5 and all 3.0 that was not updated. I have not allowed my players to use anything else for ease of the new players.

[AvatarVecna]

What optimization level are you aiming for? Is he a specialist of any kind? Are you open to PrCs? These are also important questions.

[Tvtyrant]

I am working on a small campaign that I am running for my family. I am trying to optimize a 3.5 lvl 20 Wizard with a CE alignment. It has to be from the 3.5 books. His personality is pretty slimy. He has the entire city in his pocket and on the surface he is the most kind hearted man you will ever meet. I have tried to do this myself but I am not the best at working with that high of a level or making a caster.

What books are available? How optimized is your party? Does it have to be straight wizard or can it have PRCs/multiclassing?

For straight wizard I like Elven Generalist Collegiate Wizard for lots of spells known. I use the sacrifice and agony rules from Book of Vile Darkness to get an endless supply of demons and crafting XP.

[NorseFox]

What optimization level are you aiming for? Is he a specialist of any kind? Are you open to PrCs? These are also important questions.
Thats the thing. I am not really sure. I don't mind if there are PrCs at all it might actually help a bit. He needs to be BOSS level Optimization. He will either be the final boss or he will be some one that needs to be that crazy powerful.

[sideswipe]

What books are available? How optimized is your party? Does it have to be straight wizard or can it have PRCs/multiclassing?

For straight wizard I like Elven Generalist Collegiate Wizard for lots of spells known. I use the sacrifice and agony rules from Book of Vile Darkness to get an endless supply of demons and crafting XP.

i don't know about the demons but add domain wizard to the elven generalist for more known and spell slots.

also you need to build him to a similar level of optimisation as the party,

if someone is playing straight fighter then really rethink using wizard. if someone is a spirt lion barbarian shock trooper next to a DMM persist cleric then you want
wizard 5/incantatrix 10/iotsfv 5 (or Halruuan Elder 5)

[NorseFox]

What books are available? How optimized is your party? Does it have to be straight wizard or can it have PRCs/multiclassing?

For straight wizard I like Elven Generalist Collegiate Wizard for lots of spells known. I use the sacrifice and agony rules from Book of Vile Darkness to get an endless supply of demons and crafting XP.

All 3.5, 3.0 not updated and first party books. The party is super optimized. He needs to be oped out to the max. He is boss level. He does not have to be a straight wizard.

[AvatarVecna]

Thats the thing. I am not really sure. I don't mind if there are PrCs at all it might actually help a bit. He needs to be BOSS level Optimization. He will either be the final boss or he will be some one that needs to be that crazy powerful.

A poorly made, poorly played wizard can be solo'd by a mage-killer monk build. A wizard 20's optimization ceiling is "controls everything that has ever and will ever exist, sending armies of super-magic clones after anyone who could even potentially ever threaten them, all while sitting in a demiplane the size of our solar system warded against approximately everything.

What are your players capable of handling? That's what you aim for. A maximum-optimization wizard can't be fought...but a lower-op wizard can, if the party is ready for them.

[NorseFox]

A poorly made, poorly played wizard can be solo'd by a mage-killer monk build. A wizard 20's optimization ceiling is "controls everything that has ever and will ever exist, sending armies of super-magic clones after anyone who could even potentially ever threaten them, all while sitting in a demiplane the size of our solar system warded against approximately everything.

What are your players capable of handling? That's what you aim for. A maximum-optimization wizard can't be fought...but a lower-op wizard can, if the party is ready for them.

If they fight him I do not want them to win. He will be taking over the world at the end of the campaign unless things go very badly, if things go badly the party will not be fighting him alone and it will not come down to them to kill him. I want the best of the best. I want him to be impossible to beat by my four players even at their top optimization that they are doing.

[atemu1234]

Sounds like you are unsure of what optimization really is. Boss-level is subjective to the party.

[NorseFox]

Sounds like you are unsure of what optimization really is. Boss-level is subjective to the party.

...I am actually clear on this. I just do not wish them to be able to beat this one person. I am needing help on making him a BAMF.

[danzibr]

Sounds like you are unsure of what optimization really is. Boss-level is subjective to the party.
Yes, how strong is the party? Will they be level 20 when they face this person? It sounds like they won't be super optimized.

And when you say you want this wizard strong, what do you mean? Impregnable defenses? Able to deal a brazillion d6 damage per round? From another plane?

[Tvtyrant]

Transmutation Domain Elven Generalist 7/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7/Some other Prc 6 (Mage of the Arcane Order)?

Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil makes you nearly unkillable, which you can further improve by taking Craft Contingency to get up to 21 contingencies a day (20 from crafting, 1 from the spell). Contingency: Celerity allows the wizard to always go first, the veils will keep the wizard safe, etc. Mage of the Arcane Order grants access to all wizard spells, so you can excuse the wizard having any sort of defense.

[sideswipe]

...I am actually clear on this. I just do not wish them to be able to beat this one person. I am needing help on making him a BAMF.

then go with what AvatarVecna said, for the wizard to actually be sitting in his own demiplane this whole time and its his astral projection which is in the city, and whereas his astral projection may not be warded like a god, he is. if they kill him he just goes "oh well i know who i need to delete from reality now"

[NorseFox]

I am not going to want this Wizard to be able to be beaten by my party really no matter how optimized he is. I am going to be wanting this man to take over the world. To beat him the group would need to bring the other lvl 20 NPCs for them. I do not plan on them making it to lvl 20 before the end of this story because I am going to be working on a different campaign that is after the ending of this one for new characters because our group does not like going past 20.

I do like the idea of the Demiplane. Like I said I am not the best with working on casters. Give me a rogue and I can do it blindfolded. Casters allude me.

[AvatarVecna]

I suggest just DM fiat'ing it. He can cast all the spells, enough times a day that he'll always have enough to smack them down; he has tons of metamagic feats (via Otyugh Hole+Dark Chaos Shuffle), which he can apply for free whenever he wants; he's sitting in his custom demiplane with an army of loyal followers. He has completely impregnable defenses, as do all his clones/simulacrums/whatever.

It doesn't matter what his actual stats are. If you want a character built so that you can just press a button labeled "I win", then just fiat it that way.


I am not going to want this Wizard to be able to be beaten by my party really no matter how optimized he is. I am going to be wanting this man to take over the world. To beat him the group would need to bring the other lvl 20 NPCs for them. I do not plan on them making it to lvl 20 before the end of this story because I am going to be working on a different campaign that is after the ending of this one for new characters because our group does not like going past 20.

I do like the idea of the Demiplane. Like I said I am not the best with working on casters. Give me a rogue and I can do it blindfolded. Casters allude me.

Wait, you want a completely unbeatable wizard, who can only be beaten by even more OP NPCs that you'll bring in specifically for the PCs to go crawling to when they can't beat the cheating wizard? Sounds fun.

[NorseFox]

I suggest just DM fiat'ing it. He can cast all the spells, enough times a day that he'll always have enough to smack them down; he has tons of metamagic feats (via Otyugh Hole+Dark Chaos Shuffle), which he can apply for free whenever he wants; he's sitting in his custom demiplane with an army of loyal followers. He has completely impregnable defenses, as do all his clones/simulacrums/whatever.

It doesn't matter what his actual stats are. If you want a character built so that you can just press a button labeled "I win", then just fiat it that way.



Wait, you want a completely unbeatable wizard, who can only be beaten by even more OP NPCs that you'll bring in specifically for the PCs to go crawling to when they can't beat the cheating wizard? Sounds fun.

Oh it will be great. most likely they will be fighting WITH this Wizard as they are wanting an evil campaign but if they get stupid I do want the "I Win" npc button. I might use this fiat idea.

[NorseFox]

I suggest just DM fiat'ing it. He can cast all the spells, enough times a day that he'll always have enough to smack them down; he has tons of metamagic feats (via Otyugh Hole+Dark Chaos Shuffle), which he can apply for free whenever he wants; he's sitting in his custom demiplane with an army of loyal followers. He has completely impregnable defenses, as do all his clones/simulacrums/whatever.

It doesn't matter what his actual stats are. If you want a character built so that you can just press a button labeled "I win", then just fiat it that way.



Wait, you want a completely unbeatable wizard, who can only be beaten by even more OP NPCs that you'll bring in specifically for the PCs to go crawling to when they can't beat the cheating wizard? Sounds fun.

Thank You! I am just going to do that. It makes the most sense for my group and my story.

[sideswipe]

Oh it will be great. most likely they will be fighting WITH this Wizard as they are wanting an evil campaign but if they get stupid I do want the "I Win" npc button. I might use this fiat idea.

you can even justify why he always has the spells he needs and the time to cast them, he has access to 9th level divinations, so he "kniws" when the P.C's and other strong npc's will do anything against him and what they will do ahead of them even thinking about it.

[NorseFox]

you can even justify why he always has the spells he needs and the time to cast them, he has access to 9th level divinations, so he "kniws" when the P.C's and other strong npc's will do anything against him and what they will do ahead of them even thinking about it.

Yeah I was thinking about that. I know that high level wizards are basically gods.

[sideswipe]

Yeah I was thinking about that. I know that high level wizards are basically above gods.

fixed that for you

[NorseFox]

fixed that for you

Well Thank You ^.^

[Lerondiel]

....I am trying to optimize a 3.5 lvl 20 Wizard with a CE alignment. ... He has the entire city in his pocket and on the surface he is the most kind hearted man you will ever meet....I am going to be wanting this man to take over the world....


Up there alongside divinations for his omniscience, this kind-appearing-master-of-deception wizard says Enchanter to me. No hiding in the shadows, he sounds like a politician with all the right people in power and the media around him, charmed and bought. You could have major political NPCs in the city wearing tokens (dont make it rings lol) made and given by the wizard that dont detect readily as magical but extend his influence into their every moment.

He wouldn't dispose of the PCs if they started meddling in his affairs. That'd be a waste. He has the power and confidence to look at ways to manipulate them to achieve his goals...the same way he does with everyone else.


I rarely play specialist Enchanters for their limitations in dungeon crawls but the playground should be able to help with a lot of build options to crush Will saves.

[AvatarVecna]

Up there alongside divinations for his omniscience, this kind-appearing-master-of-deception wizard says Enchanter to me. No hiding in the shadows, he sounds like a politician with all the right people in power and the media around him, charmed and bought. You could have major political NPCs in the city wearing tokens (dont make it rings lol) made and given by the wizard that dont detect readily as magical but extend his influence into their every moment.

He wouldn't dispose of the PCs if they started meddling in his affairs. That'd be a waste. He has the power and confidence to look at ways to manipulate them to achieve his goals...the same way he does with everyone else.


I rarely play specialist Enchanters for their limitations in dungeon crawls but the playground should be able to help with a lot of build options to crush Will saves.

I know! They should be upper arm tattoos stylized to look like snakes emerging the mouth-holes of skulls! Oh, and he should be a lich with seven phylacteries, because there's no rule saying you can't (I think...)! That would be awesome!

[PraxisVetli]

I know! They should be upper arm tattoos stylized to look like snakes emerging the mouth-holes of skulls! Oh, and he should be a lich with seven phylacteries, because there's no rule saying you can't (I think...)! That would be awesome!

Aumvor's (sp?) Fragmented Phylactery yo.
In some Faerun book, I don't remember which.

Don't forget an Acorn of Far Travel linked to a tree inside a temple of Mystra in his demiplane.
Baaaaaaasically free metamagic.

[Phelix-Mu]

For CE manipulator boss-types, pasting Insidious Corruptor onto whatever spellcaster base (ignoring the drow racial requirement because it is silly) can be useful. Not super-op compared to straight wizard, but a less blunt instrument and a bit more flavor. Combine it with Mindbender (or, gods above, just use psionics) and have him literally inside the minds of every influential member of society.

If we want to increase the evil, and the chaos, but without much mechanical effect, I often have evil oppressor types use drugs. Drugs are outlined in Book of Vile Darkness, and are an excellent way for any resourceful spellcaster utterly devoid of scruples to effectively enslave an entire population. The key is the extract drug spell and one of the many ways to increase access to spells (or just have the BBEG do it himself, pretty sure you can prepare lower level spells in higher level slots). Basically, a high-level caster can be his own drug cartel, and for the average commoner, a little bit of addiction goes a long way.

Once the population has a lowered Will save via liberal supply of the stuff, extract as much money as necessary to put people in your debt, restrict supply as necessary to bend them to your will. Apply magic only to high-value targets; the vast majority of people will be so busy suffering, cutting each others throats, and generally burning everything to the ground, that you can save your spells for experiments/fun/emergencies.

Bonus points for first inflicting a disease on the population and then showing up to save the day, presenting the drug as a medicine (with unfortunate side effects). Bonus bonus points for manipulating good-aligned churches into helping distribute the drug by manipulating their priests.

[danzibr]

I know! They should be upper arm tattoos stylized to look like snakes emerging the mouth-holes of skulls! Oh, and he should be a lich with seven phylacteries, because there's no rule saying you can't (I think...)! That would be awesome!
But such a boss might be weak to the power of love.

[thedarkcrash]

Transmutation Domain Elven Generalist 7/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7/Some other Prc 6 (Mage of the Arcane Order)?

Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil makes you nearly unkillable, which you can further improve by taking Craft Contingency to get up to 21 contingencies a day (20 from crafting, 1 from the spell). Contingency: Celerity allows the wizard to always go first, the veils will keep the wizard safe, etc. Mage of the Arcane Order grants access to all wizard spells, so you can excuse the wizard having any sort of defense.

I know this is an old thread, how do you get initiate of the seven at level 8? You need 12 ranks of knowledge which means youd have to be min level 10 for your first level of it.