low level campaigns, how to deal with PC invisibility?

[gogogome]

A party of 4:sorcerer, cleric, barbarian, rogue. They're all level 4.

The sorcerer and cleric casts invisibility on themselves and spam summon monster I.

If the barbarian and rogue get in trouble, they just walk up and cast invisibility on them.

Encounter after encounter its the same. Hobgoblins, goblins, and bugbears don't have any way of detecting invisibility, so if the barbarian or rogue disappear in front of them I have them swing in front of them and if it misses, they just go for the summoned monsters.

I don't believe in changing the world just for the PC, so having every single spellcaster have invisibility purge, see invisibility, glitterdust, etc. is not an option unless there is a survivor who escaped and told everyone about the PCs.

The closest I got to getting the PCs were using hellhounds with their scent and track ability, but the PCs ran out of the dungeon and straight to town.

So how do you deal with this? I am using premade adventures only at the moment.

[Ephemeral_Being]

Psions with Mindsight can find them. They still have concealment, but they can be found.

Anything with Blindsense/Blindsight/Tremorsense. Some enemies have them, but most don't.

Dispel Magic is always good.

Put flour on the floor. Follow the footprints.

Put Caltrops/Marbles on the floor so that they fall, and then make a racket standing up. You could even argue that a watching enemy would see the marbles move.

Use splash weapons that don't need to hit them directly, and then coat them afterwords (Alchemist's Fire)

Traps don't care about invisibility. Neither do AoE spells, assuming you know where they are (generally speaking).

You could set up traps that dump things on them. Which would arguably make them visible.

Any of that help?

[Yael]

Flour are useful in this kind of situations, they are in Dungeonscape. It is really cheap and useful.

[Andezzar]

A few ideas, only partially compatible with published adventures:

Use AoE spells. Burning hands and fireballs don't care about invisible targets. If you funnel the PCs into a smallish kill zone you can even be sure that they will be in the AoE of the spell.

Doors and readied actions, possibly with AoE spells and/or splash weapons have been ruining the day of insvisible creatures for a long time.

Fighting in sand or snow will leave footprints. While this will not negate the 50% miss chance, at least the attacks will go into the right square.

Lastly not all encounters need to be combat. A chasm does not care if people are invisible for example.

But don't forget, don't overdo this. You shouldn't be picking on the players for using sound tactics. enemies that do not and cannot expect invisible PCs probably wouldn't be prepared against them. Enemies however who know about the PCs and their tactics (or are reasonably paranoid wizards) should and would be prepared.

[Grooke]

Like several people mentionned, the Flour Pouch from Dungeonscape is an easy, cheap, non-magical way to detect invisible creatures that can be reasonably readied by just about anyone.

If you want something a little more effective, you can use Torch Bug paste from Complete Scoundrel.

Both are thrown splash weapons.

[ace rooster]

Fight fire with fire, a summon monster 2 can get you d3 small fiendish scorpions, and while not dangerous they can 'mark' targets. Obscuring mist shuts down almost all visibility, rendering invisibility a moot point. Protection from x makes the summons ineffective, while a magic circle can seriously damage summoned creature's mobility. If the hobgoblins are well led, then having them withdraw behind characters taking total defense actions can mean that they can simply wait out the short duration summoning spells. Additionally they could just leave, and then counterattack 1min/level later.

Your players seem smart, in that they will withdraw from a fight that is not a dead cert. You need to provide scenarios where 'leave and come back tomorrow' is not a viable option. Ambushes in buildings, immobile objectives, or a time limit are some ways to draw the players into fights that they would otherwise withdraw from, while not overly cramping the tactics. If the enemy is the one with the option of withdrawing then that 1min/level duration suddenly doesn't seem very long.

[sideswipe]

a point to remember is that if all of your goblins and such are all part of one huge group then word would get back to the leader about the parties exploits, an invisible bunch of adventurers killing everything in their path! the leaders through intelligence and fear would start arming against them somehow, low level mages learn glitterdust etc, mundanes carry flour or tanglefoot bag's (for when found) and maybe even hire someone or something that can detect the invisible or have true sight in the larger more important battles against bosses.

the group would happily waste some resources to stop their inevitable defeat. to be fair to the players this would detract from their available resources so they may slow down progress of their main goal or be in some way weaker or depleted in something.

there is a big difference in punishing good tactics and openly spamming something to your enemy and your enemy learns and tries to counter rather then just put their neck out and wait for death.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Invisibility lasts for 1 min/level. How do they get enough castings to be invisible for every encounter in a day and still spam other spells?

Still, there are methods to deal with it for (almost) anyone, even monsters.
Unless they have ranks in move silently they're easily located by a listen check. That doesn't negate concealment, but you don't have to. Use area attacks like spells or splash weapons. Or create your own concealment (fog spells, smokesticks) to even the playing field.

A Flour Pouch (DS, 1sp) is affordable for pretty much anyone, even if it only reduces the missing chance to 20%. For complete negation look for Torchbug Paste (CS, 25gp).
A Sprayer (A&E, 15gp) can be used to attack without being affected by miss chance since it creates a 5x10ft cloud and is usable by anyone (oil is the cheapest ammo. Light it on fire).

As for most spellcasters having an anti-invisibility option, it's not that hard to believe. Invisibility is a pretty standard spell that most casters can learn, so getting something to deal with it is only prudent in light of how dangerous it is otherwise (as your players have demonstrated).
Some of the anti-invisibility spells work against stealth as well, making them even more valuable.
Glitterdust especially is extremely useful even if there isn't anything to reveal, because of the blinding effect. It's one of the most valued low level spells in core and a staple of arcane casters for a reason.

[DeltaEmil]

Normal guard animals like a dog should work wonder. People used them in real life to catch thieves, and there weren't magically invisible master wizard thieves at all.

Goblinoids are also noted to work quite well with animals like wolfs and to train their own monstrous versions of such creatures, and even have racial pacts with magical beasts like warg.

[Darrin]

Unless they have ranks in move silently they're easily located by a listen check.

Listening is easier than Spotting. To pinpoint an invisible creature in combat, is a Listen check DC 20, +1 per 10' distance. I believe each round, every creature gets a free Listen/Spot check to notice something, and if they fail, they can try again as a move action. Throw enough mooks into the encounter, and eventually one of them will roll a 20 on the Listen check. The invisible PC still gets a 50% miss chance, but some of those will break the other way.

You can also add some animals to your encounters. Horses, donkeys, dogs, etc. All animals have Scent, which helps them locate invisible creatures, or at least determine the direction. It takes a move action to get direction, but they can pinpoint if the enemy is within 5'. Even if the animal isn't trained to detect invisible intruders, any animal with an available move action can be expected to use Scent and react to perceived threats accordingly. Riding dogs and wolves are perfect for this, as they can use Track + Survival checks to determine the direction of an invisible enemy, and it's plausible for most creatures to have dogs/wolves on the battlefield. Adding a 1st level druid + wolf/riding dog to any encounter also shouldn't break plausibility. If the PCs have a large enough reputation that the druid might know who he's up against, it's also plausible he'd prepare faerie fire.

[Vhaidara]

First off, I second the question about how they have enough spells per day to keep this up.


I don't believe in changing the world just for the PC, so having every single spellcaster have invisibility purge, see invisibility, glitterdust, etc. is not an option unless there is a survivor who escaped and told everyone about the PCs.

Second, the bolded. Glitterdust is one of the best level 2 spells there is. That's why they have it there. It would be prepared if the sorcerer was blasting and the cleric was healbotting.

[gogogome]

If they run out of invisibilities, they just run out the door and go back to town or rest. 4minutes is plently enough time to run out of the dungeon.

All this advice is sound. I'm going by the premade adventure's spell selection for the spellcasters, and they never have any glitterdust, see invisibility, etc. prepared, and only if there are survivors do I prepare it, but there's also like only one or two spellcaster per dungeon.

Flour is very good advice. If the PCs retreat, the entire dungeon will prepare flour for the next encounter because they know the PC's tricks. Thanks for informing me of such a way a non-spellcaster can detect invisibility without epic skill checks.

I've been using animals, but they just know the direction. I have them move in the general direction but they move at half speed when tracking with scent right? The spellcasters can just outrun them and then cast a summon spell later.

[NichG]

Hanging bead strings not only help against invisible intruders, but they also help ward a place against teleportation (nowhere to land that doesn't shunt you).

[ace rooster]

If they run out of invisibilities, they just run out the door and go back to town or rest. 4minutes is plently enough time to run out of the dungeon.

All this advice is sound. I'm going by the premade adventure's spell selection for the spellcasters, and they never have any glitterdust, see invisibility, etc. prepared, and only if there are survivors do I prepare it, but there's also like only one or two spellcaster per dungeon.

Flour is very good advice. If the PCs retreat, the entire dungeon will prepare flour for the next encounter because they know the PC's tricks. Thanks for informing me of such a way a non-spellcaster can detect invisibility without epic skill checks.

4 mins will get you out of the dungeon, and then 8 hours is plenty time to set up an ambush for when they come back, including having a barricade ready for the door so that the PCs cannot escape, and bags of flour for invisible attackers, (personally I am more a fan of oil though; core, and when in doupt set it on fire. Effective against invisibility, DR, SR, and AC). Goblins have no int penalty, and are known for their underhand cunning. Giving them 8 hours to plan and then attacking them with the same tactics is foolish at best. Alternatively, unless they have a very pressing reason for staying, the dungeon occupants could just decide that they do not like the neighbors, and up sticks. They might leave a few sneaky gits outside, to barricade the entrance and light the barrels of pitch that they left when the PCs arrive. Invisibility is no defense against Smoke (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#smokeEffects).

On the subject of goblins, they are not known for their bravery. Any goblins that were close enough to hiding places when the PCs arrived and were not immediately noticed would probably hide, and then run (secret passages possibly). The PCs might not even know if they left survivors.

[sleepyphoenixx]

If they run out of invisibilities, they just run out the door and go back to town or rest. 4minutes is plently enough time to run out of the dungeon.

All this advice is sound. I'm going by the premade adventure's spell selection for the spellcasters, and they never have any glitterdust, see invisibility, etc. prepared, and only if there are survivors do I prepare it, but there's also like only one or two spellcaster per dungeon.

Flour is very good advice. If the PCs retreat, the entire dungeon will prepare flour for the next encounter because they know the PC's tricks. Thanks for informing me of such a way a non-spellcaster can detect invisibility without epic skill checks.

I've been using animals, but they just know the direction. I have them move in the general direction but they move at half speed when tracking with scent right? The spellcasters can just outrun them and then cast a summon spell later.

4 minutes is barely enough to walk a kilometer, on solid ground and without obstacles or carrying anything. If they run they'll make noise, making it easier to find them. If any of them are wearing medium or heavy armor catching up gets even easier.
If they stepped on caltrops and don't have healing they won't be running anywhere. :smallamused:

Not to say that retreat is impossible, but it will cost resources against most enemies instead of just booking it, so running away every second encounter (possibly multiple times if they do it at the first hint of opposition) should put a definite drain on their resources.

Regarding tracking: you can track at full speed at a -5. Following a party of 4 on a fresh trail should be about a DC 9-19, depending on ground and environment conditions. A level 1 wolf or riding dog has a +4 to track by scent, and they can aid another. A wolf or dog trained to track (and lets be honest, there's not much else you can do with those skill points) also has 5 ranks in survival and +1 wisdom bonus, making the check easy or even trivial.
So if your goblins have some wolves they can easily follow when your party retreats and then ambush them when they're trying to rest. And that's hardly a stretch if your party just broke into their lair and killed their friends.

Alternatively you can have your monsters start flanking and blocking doors in combat to prevent them from retreating, especially if they've used the tactic before.
Caltrops, Grease, Tanglefoot Bags and similar options can also delay a retreat and allow them to catch up and get hits in.

If your players complain tell them to get real. Someone who always uses the same tactic and leaves witnesses should be prepared to be countered eventually.

[Darrin]

I've been using animals, but they just know the direction.


Until they move within 5', and then the jig is up. (I generally give animals a "free pinpoint" if they move within 5', even though this isn't the exact letter of the rule.)



The spellcasters can just outrun them and then cast a summon spell later.

Running away and casting a spell are noisy activities. Might be worth a Listen check DC 20 with a +2 circumstance modifier.

Another low-level tactic for clerics/druids is to cast create water on the floor, so invisible footsteps are easier to spot.

[Studoku]

If they run out of invisibilities, they just run out the door and go back to town or rest. 4minutes is plently enough time to run out of the dungeon.
This isn't a problem with invisibility. It's a problem with having the entire population of the dungeon stand still and wait while the players rest.

[Andezzar]

You can also add some animals to your encounters. Horses, donkeys, dogs, etc. All animals have Scent, which helps them locate invisible creatures, or at least determine the direction.Not all of them, only a lot of them.


All this advice is sound. I'm going by the premade adventure's spell selection for the spellcasters, and they never have any glitterdust, see invisibility, etc. prepared, and only if there are survivors do I prepare it, but there's also like only one or two spellcaster per dungeon.Spell selection and feat selection are often very bad in premade adventures, and I mean toughness bad. Feel free to change them out.


I've been using animals, but they just know the direction. I have them move in the general direction but they move at half speed when tracking with scent right? The spellcasters can just outrun them and then cast a summon spell later.Some animals have a higher base speed than the PCs (especially the tin cans). Also they can accept a -5 or -20 penalty to the rolls to move at speed or double speed. Also each roll is good for a mile. So the PCs would have to run far far away.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Spell selection and feat selection are often very bad in premade adventures, and I mean toughness bad. Feel free to change them out.
This. The better your PCs are at character building (in other words, the less they suck), the more you'll have to rebuild the enemies in premade adventures. If you're lucky changing a feat or two, switching someones sword for a reach weapon and/or giving them decent spell selections should suffice, but i've done complete rebuilds before when an NPC just wasn't up to the role he should have had in the story.

The life of a DM is full of peril (and lots of paperwork). :smalltongue:

[Lerondiel]

The important thing is to play the intelligence of the opposition right.

If there's a traumatised survivor of these 'invisible assassins' able to get back to the chief, what does he do?

If he's as inexperienced as level 4 and not particularly intelligent, he might send out hunting parties of greater numbers and if the PCs can deal with that there is not much resistance beyond that and the module is nearly won. Nothing's gone wrong, your PCs have dominated a weaker dumber opponent.

If he's smart he takes on seige mentality and takes his forces (and casters) to the most defendable location - the PCs have really stirred up a hornet's nest now. He orders hidden pits to be dug or obvious ones needing a log crossing that's been secretly cut through, tunnels to be blocked, shallow pools to be filled for his dozens of archers to fire at the first splashing footstep, smoke & fire traps, dry crunchy leaves to add circumstantial bonuses to their Listen checks, flash bangs to blind the invisible invaders, hidden scouts to bar strong doors after the PCs have passed by to lock them in, etc.


But this issue won't go away. They sound like the type of players that will also start flying a lot in a couple of levels, and hitting greater invisibility a couple of levels after that.

You can ask your players if they really want a campaign where opponents can rarely see or reach them and happily die, or if they want you to make the whole campaign about trying to counteract their tactic, or do they want to leave those spells out of general use and just get on with the campaign as written?

[BilltheCynic]

There are the feats Scorpion's Resolve and Scorpion's Sense (Sandstorm 53). Scorpion's Resolve is a prerequisite for Scorpion's Sense, it has no prerequisites itself, and it gives a +4 bonus on saving throws on mind affecting spells and abilities. Scorpion's Sense is the important feat. It's only prerequisite is Scorpion's Resolve and it gives tremorsense for 10 ft. 20 ft if they are on ash, sand, loose earth, or a similar substance. Slap those two feats on some badguys and they can now pinpoint the PC's location when the PCs use invisibility.

[J-H]

Summon Monster I only lasts for 4 rounds at level 4. In an open area where multiple rounds are used in movement and there are more than a few enemies, the summoned creatures will all be gone by 6-8 rounds of combat.

[Troacctid]

Casting a spell with verbal components requires you to speak in a strong voice, so if the sorcerer is going invisible then casting more invisibilities, he'll be giving away his position.

A trained bat can detect the presence of invisible characters more accurately than a dog or a wolf, using blindsense. The range is a bit shorter, but if the room isn't too big, it won't matter.

Fill the room with about an inch or two of water and anyone invisible will be easy to spot.

[Phelix-Mu]

In a campaign world where humanoid creatures aren't all boneheaded, there should always be acid flasks, caltrops, marbles, and tanglefoot bags in one or two of the humanoid inventories (just like the party), along with the aforementioned stuff for anyone used to the existence of spellcasters (which should be pretty much anyone with a brain in the typical D&D world). Also, almost no enemy should stick around in a fight with someone they can't see or otherwise detect; if they are fighting a hopeless fight, they should run away pretty quickly if not cornered. And routes are legitimately worth less xp if the party didn't use substantial resource/hp in fighting them.

Finally, enemies that did run and get away should return with their own witchdoctor/shaman/cleric/sorcerer/boomstick, ideally after laying a careful ambush for the party before they have a chance to rest. Pits full of oil, concealment for everyone via smokebombs, nets, obstacles....

Remember, as a DM, your toolbox is always, always bigger than that of the players. They should only have the run of the table when such is the plan. If the pcs indulge in repetitive and simple tactics, then they are gunning to learn a hard lesson at some point. It sounds like now is that point.

[Afgncaap5]

How many times can your caster cast Invisibility? Because as soon as the barbarian or rogue attacks, their Invisibility should be up, right? Unless it's greater invisibility. You could theoretically add one extra minion per casting of Invisibility that you're worried about. :smallcool:

Also, not really an option while using pre-made adventures, but you could always at some point introduce a really hammy wizard with all sorts of gadgets that he uses to terrorize a small community, one of which being his All Seeing Eye Of Marthazdun, an amulet that let's him see the invisible, detect magical auras, and be aware of his surroundings at all times (effectively nullifying flanking and sneak attack options)! Make the amulet really obvious and sunderable, but pretty much only from direct assaults.

Once sundered, assuming he's got no other wizardly tricks, have him cast invisibility and run after shouting for his Thunder Ninjas Of The Ninth Sea (who naturally appear in a circle around the PCs in a puff of smoke, but apart from being impressive when they enter and having faces that are human on one side and lizardy on the other side they're pretty much jut low level rogues), only to have him return after another trip to get yet another eye from Marthazdun. Eventually have the PCs get approached by Marthazdun for help dealing with the ridiculously theatrical wizard problem.

[daremetoidareyo]

You can also employ the same technique against the PCs. What happens when the hobgoblins bring on some kobold summoners with wands of invisibility? Especially after hearing from the southern goblinoid clan of having to deal with invisible bruisers, they adopted the same tactics, seeing as how highly effective it is.

Then the PCs start carrying glitterdust and flour. Then the Bad guys start optimizing for darkness (Imagine that when you get to a high enough level, those kobold summoners prestiges into nar demonbinder. A Planar ally (any smart and connected low level devil) suggests using the touchstone ("what good is being invisible if you cannot see?")

Subsequent deals (after raiding local tribes using the invisibility tactics that the PCs pioneered) lead to the development a planeshifting ritual & a construction deal with the clerks at the catalogues of enlightenment to add a new wing in exchange for the baator ability. Gobs of Hobgoblins and kobolds begin taking preliminary trips to the catalogues to earn the domain granted power to see in all types of darkness, working for a few day shifts to construct new shelves and lay brick. After a nasty incident, the Hobgoblins enstate mandatory behavior classes before any candidate is sent in the planeshift ritual.

Now, armed with wands of darkness, the raiding party begins hitting higher value rich targets, destroying bodyguards in no time with their expertly employed strikeforce: darkness + seeing that darkness, littering the field with ranged attacks, spells, and summons (stuff with tremorsense/blindsense) and moving in to take the spoils.

The behavior classes + exposure to mechanus bring a new turn: as they continue to grow rich in robbing more secure and rich targets, the hobgoblins can devote more time to studying military tactics with the resource available there. The additional funds are parlayed into military training courses, based on the amazing treatises of conflict from authors from all of the planes. From archeron to mt. celestia, the hobgoblins become such brilliant tacticians that when they return home, they develop their own empire. First, they migrate on a tour of collecting dissaffected outcasts from each country as they move to a farflung place that was weak enough to conquer easily that could in no way expect the coming hoard. From that base, Employing kobold bards to act as the face of a new government, these tacticians develop an extensive spy network into the countries nearby. Using this knowledge, bankrolled by a new crop of drow students using the planeshift circle to get rid of some enemy that they hate, they begin sending out destabilization parties to block certain trade routes to create chokepoints that can be exploited during the upcoming military campaign. At this step, recruiters eventually reach out to hire the PCs! to begin this step.

[Platymus Pus]

I'd suggest
Invisibility Purge

[Vizzerdrix]

Sick swarms on them.

[eggynack]

If they run out of invisibilities, they just run out the door and go back to town or rest. 4minutes is plently enough time to run out of the dungeon.

Then this is, at least in large part, the problem. Construct situations such that they can't just spend days or even weeks taking out a dungeon. Maybe there's an opponent there that wants something, and the PC's have to stop it, or maybe there's just something they want that's time sensitive. It doesn't need to be a massive ticking clock, or ticking clocks all the time. Just speedy enough that they can't take all the time they want. Beyond that, maybe instead of swiping futilely at the summoned monsters, the encounter just kinda runs away for a bit. It's a plan that really drains the PC's of resources at low cost.

[Galen]

A party of 4:sorcerer, cleric, barbarian, rogue. They're all level 4.

The sorcerer and cleric casts invisibility on themselves and spam summon monster I.

If the barbarian and rogue get in trouble, they just walk up and cast invisibility on them.

Encounter after encounter its the same. Hobgoblins, goblins, and bugbears don't have any way of detecting invisibility, so if the barbarian or rogue disappear in front of them I have them swing in front of them and if it misses, they just go for the summoned monsters.

I don't believe in changing the world just for the PC, so having every single spellcaster have invisibility purge, see invisibility, glitterdust, etc. is not an option unless there is a survivor who escaped and told everyone about the PCs.

The closest I got to getting the PCs were using hellhounds with their scent and track ability, but the PCs ran out of the dungeon and straight to town.

So how do you deal with this? I am using premade adventures only at the moment.
1. Goblins can still make Listen checks, opposed by the PCs Move Silently checks. Casting a spell with a Verbal Component (which Summon Monster is)? oooh, I guess they heard you.

And if the Goblins heard you, it means they know which square you're in, so they get to attack you with a 50% miss chance. Doesn't seem a big deal, but remember, you can't fight back w/o breaking invisibility. In fact, even if one Goblin hears you, he can point it out to the rest.

2. Goblins have dogs. Not Hellhounds, nothing exotic like that, just regular bog-standard dogs with scent. I mean, why not? Cavemen had dogs. Everyone can have a dog. And if the dog knows which square you're in, he attacks that square, and now every Goblin knows where you are.

3. Goblins have spellcasters. Even Create Water can provide clues to an invisible creature's location. Glitterdust is a common level 2 spell, often used due to its great utility both to detect invisible creatures, and blind. Area effects like Burning Hands also don't care if you're invisible.

4. Goblins make traps. Let's see how being invisible helps you against walking into that pit trap, or triggering that tripwire.

[Hellborn_Blight]

Yeah, in future dungeons, lock the door behind them. You could also just give them less xp, as the challenge of what they are doing is being greatly reduced, but that can be a slippery slop.

But Grimlocks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/grimlock.htm) are a CR 1, with blindsight 40ft. Darkmantles (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/darkmantle.htm) have it at 90 ft, and are literally my favorite monster in the game, because they are hilarious to use, CR 1. Have one of them grab the spell casters, and then laugh maniacally. Speaking of funny, there is also Assassin Vine (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/assassinVine.htm), CR 3. You have to camouflage it in a dungeon by using other plants, but in a forest it is just a bush. Gelatinous Cube (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ooze.htm#gelatinousCube) is another enemy that is specifically in dungeons, so you don't have to feel like you are making them fight things that are typed against them, CR 3. Wraiths (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wraith.htm) have lifesense, so unless your players are undead, it is the same as blindsight, CR 5.

And that is five monsters at reasonable CR that will make a mockery of Invisibility. That said, if you don't cut off their escape route, they will continue to be unchallenged by lack of resource expense. If they are just over resting, you need to find a way to train them not to do that, for their own good, as not being challenged make combat meaningless.

[Yahzi]

If they run out of invisibilities, they just run out the door and go back to town or rest.
That's your problem right there. You can solve the invis problem, but it will just shift to some other tactic. It's called "nova," and it means burning everything to win one encounter. As long as your players do that, they are going to be punching far above their weight.

Of course now that you've taught them to fight like that, putting them in a situation where they can't do it will likely result in a TPK.

That said, with dogs tracking them, I don't know why it's that easy for them to escape. 4 minutes gets you out of the dungeon; why don't the goblins follow them out of the dungeon? As long as the goblins are trapped in a static location they are easy prey. Next time, have the gobs and their dogs keep chasing the party, all the way out into the forest. It's OK if the players get away anyway; the point is that they will realize their get-out-of-jail free card is not a trump card. And perhaps it will start training your players to keep something in reserve for when the unexpected happens. Such as meeting a goblin patrol coming home when they are reatreating...

[dextercorvia]

Runehounds are CR3 from MM3 with reach, DR, fast healing and Blindsight to 500'. They would be perfect to ambush your retreating characters with. Also, you can try not-so random encounters between the dungeon and wherever they plan to rest, or attack them in their sleep.

[gogogome]

I have totally forgotten these dogs have skillpoints in check! Tracking by scent is only 10dc, full speed is 15, so they should be able to handle it. But still, the PCs are running, which still beats the animal's full movespeed, especially since they use a move action to use the scent ability. They'll never catchup unless the PCs make camp in a non-guarded area. I guess I can surprise them if they retreat in an encounter without dogs, and I say goblins sent a hunting party without their knowledge.

My ability to introduce time constraints or prevent retreats is limited by the premade adventures. If I change stuff to specifically counter the players, they will get angry because its not "realistic". Goblins magically getting stronger and better gear because the PCs leveled up makes no sense, and so does every single dungeon being completely prepared for invisibility. Unless there is a survivor, because that is realistic.

As for detecting invisible creatures with hearing: "It’s practically impossible to pinpoint the location of an invisible creature." is from the d20srd. All the listeners know is that they're somewhere over there. They need to beat a 20dc to pinpoint the location, which I guess isn't that hard.

The PCs aren't nova-ing. The barbarian and rogue + a few summons take out the less challenging encounters, but they are trigger-happy, as in as soon as one of them hits 1/2 hp, it's spam invisibility. Sometimes they get through the 4 encounters per day, sometimes only 1 or 2.

I guess the only problem I had was that i didn't know how non-spellcasters could detect invisibility. I never would of thought of flour. I think this solves my problem. Players escape with invisibility, next fight everyone in dungeon has flour. Thanks again everyone.

[Twilightwyrm]

After the first couple incidents of these goblins getting massacred like this, they should start setting up flour traps.
Even in battle, once they realize invisibility is in play, dirt, sand, flour (if they have it).

[Phelix-Mu]

If the goblins don't have a counter and are total pushovers, they should be worth next to no experience. Player characters gain experience for overcoming challenges, not for mashing the "Easy" button over and over. Either raise the goblins to the difficulty the players are operating at, or reduce experience according to the DMG.

EDIT: Also, life being hard is not "unrealistic." Quite the opposite in fact; it is pretty widely acknowledged that s*%t hits the fan with regularity in reality. If the game is to be realistic, then the player characters should not be allowed to manipulate encounters with such ease. Because reality is unpredictable. You are DM; if you need to change the published adventure, I am sure there is a section in the beginning of the thing that says you can do so. There is certainly said rule in the core books.

[Darrin]

I guess the only problem I had was that i didn't know how non-spellcasters could detect invisibility. I never would of thought of flour. I think this solves my problem. Players escape with invisibility, next fight everyone in dungeon has flour. Thanks again everyone.

There's something even better than flour.

Torch Bug Paste. Complete Scoundrel p. 120, 25 GP each. Completely *negates* invisibility. Flour still gives the spellcaster a 20% miss chance, but torch bug paste eliminates the concealment completely (unless they're using magical darkness).

[Phelix-Mu]

And the water idea is also good. A few good puddles or an inch or two on the entire floor has no impact on mobility and will reveal anything standing in the water in a very obvious way. Snow is also good for this.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I have totally forgotten these dogs have skillpoints in check! Tracking by scent is only 10dc, full speed is 15, so they should be able to handle it. But still, the PCs are running, which still beats the animal's full movespeed, especially since they use a move action to use the scent ability. They'll never catchup unless the PCs make camp in a non-guarded area. I guess I can surprise them if they retreat in an encounter without dogs, and I say goblins sent a hunting party without their knowledge.

If the enemies can reasonably know where the PCs are likely to retreat to (a nearby village or something similar) you don't really need to track them. And dogs are faster than humanoids.


My ability to introduce time constraints or prevent retreats is limited by the premade adventures. If I change stuff to specifically counter the players, they will get angry because its not "realistic". Goblins magically getting stronger and better gear because the PCs leveled up makes no sense, and so does every single dungeon being completely prepared for invisibility. Unless there is a survivor, because that is realistic.
.

Mages aren't exactly rare in D&D. Neither are invisibility effects and people with superhuman stealth. I find it far less realistic that nobody thinks to pack a counter to such tactics, given how easy/cheap they are and how screwed you are without them.

You can also talk about this out of character. Your PCs may be content rolling over encounters without being challenged, but i know that i'd be bored to tears as a DM in such a game.

[Alcibiades]

Also note that 'running to town' is not a viable strategy if enough goblins were killed. Either the enemies should be aware of their strategy the next time they come around, or they track the PCs to town and decide to make their move instead of waiting to get murdered because they can't see invisible enemies. They don't even have to come close to killing the PCs (they might be out of spells, but there's a town watch to help them out!) but innocents might get killed.

An encounter also becomes a lot harder if you play the enemies somewhat intelligently. (The infamous Tucker's Kobolds (http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/) are an example what a well-played group of low-level monsters can do.) If the goblins know what's going on, they have no reason to try and fight the summoned monsters once the barbarian and rogue go invisible. Simply have them withdraw or use total defense to wait out the duration of the spell.

Inbetween mundane solutions like the flour or sticky materials suggested and the occasional use of spells/magic items, invisibility should become unreliable enough that at least the cleric might stop preparing invisbility/summon monster and instead focus on alternate tactics to use.

Do note that once your sorcerer hits level 5 and learns another 2nd level spell, he might just spontaneously start to mix it up.

[Studoku]

If the enemies can reasonably know where the PCs are likely to retreat to (a nearby village or something similar) you don't really need to track them.
You don't even need to kill the PCs. Have the remaining Goblins burn the village in retaliation. With or without the PCs there.

[goto124]

Would it be a good idea to tell them the difficulty's going up?

'The enemies have learnt of you dangerous invisible adventurers, and have taken steps to counteract it. For example, there's flour all over the floor.'
'Why would they use flowers?'
'...the kind for baking cakes.'
'So no cakes for us?'
*groan*

In games I've played before, invis/hidden/blah are removed once you attack. Does this apply here?

[Sith_Happens]

But still, the PCs are running, which still beats the animal's full movespeed, especially since they use a move action to use the scent ability. They'll never catchup unless the PCs make camp in a non-guarded area.

You can run for a minute or two at a time at most.

[manyslayer]

But still, the PCs are running, which still beats the animal's full movespeed, especially since they use a move action to use the scent ability.

Running has to be in a straight line and can't be done in difficult terrain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#run). You must have some long corridored, very clean dungeons. And, if they are running, that's a lot of noise for the armored guys. Invisible or not, I doubt the dogs have to make too hard a check to follow the clanking footsteps.

Also, as someone else mentioned, puddles on the floor are fitting for a dungeon as well as letting enemies pinpoint the square the PCs are in.