Rudyard Kipling

[Lord Iames Osari]

Is anyone else a fan? My favorites are "Cold Iron (http://whitewolf.newcastle.edu.au/words/authors/K/KiplingRudyard/verse/p2/coldiron.html)," "Tommy (http://www.web-books.com/classics/poetry/anthology/Kipling/Tommy.htm)," and "The Young British Soldier (http://www.poetryloverspage.com/poets/kipling/young_british_soldier.html)".

[Catch]

I dunno, I was a bit turned off by his "White Man's Burden (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/Kipling.html)."

Racism + Imperialism = Not my cuppa.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Eh, true. But Kipling was a product of his times - as we all are - so I tend to focus on those of his works that I do like.

[Catch]

Eh, true. But Kipling was a product of his times - as we all are - so I tend to focus on those of his works that I do like.

Understandable. Same reason why I like Nietzsche, even though he's considered to be a bit of a misogynist.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Hmm. That link you posted goes to a university page.

[Catch]

I noticed that. Fixed now.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Thank you.

[clarkvalentine]

I read and reread Rikki Tikki Tavi endlessly when I was a kid. What a great story.

[Nerzi]

I read and reread Rikki Tikki Tavi endlessly when I was a kid. What a great story.
Me too.
Loved the Jungle Book, haven't read so much of his other stuff, though we have a huge collection of it here as grandad was a big fan, just need to find it in the many many bookshelves and boxes in my house.

[Reptilus]

As Catch said, racist imperialism isn't my thing. Nor, to answer your explanation, is cultural relativism.
That said, Gunga Din has been one of his few poems I liked, both because of its literary merits and because of its most oft-quoted line "You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din." Yes, narrator, he sure is.

[musicnerd]

I used to read Riki Tiki Tavi over and over, and I also had a movie of it I watched constantly. :)

[Mr._Blinky]

I dunno, I was a bit turned off by his "White Man's Burden (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/Kipling.html)."

Racism + Imperialism = Not my cuppa.
Damn, beat me to it.

[Ravyn]

Grew up on the Just So Stories, and I still reference them constantly--which is a pity, because nobody ever gets them. Jungle Book, or at least the first two--three?--parts + Rikki-Tikki-Tavi and The White Seal, was good, though I didn't think much of the later, post-story portions that got published in the edition my sister ended up with... and I haven't gotten around to any of his other stuff.

[soozenw]

Grew up on the Just So Stories, and I still reference them constantly--which is a pity, because nobody ever gets them. Jungle Book, or at least the first two--three?--parts + Rikki-Tikki-Tavi and The White Seal, was good, though I didn't think much of the later, post-story portions that got published in the edition my sister ended up with... and I haven't gotten around to any of his other stuff.


LOVE the just so stories! I plan to read then to my children as they were read to me!

[bosssmiley]

I dunno, I was a bit turned off by his "White Man's Burden (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/Kipling.html)."

Racism + Imperialism = Not my cuppa.

Strangely enough I liked WMB, and never did see the supposed racism or jingoism in it. If you read the poem carefully, you could almost see the sentiments expressed as the (often thankless) lot of a modern overseas aid worker.

Also liked:

"The Widow at Windsor"
"Gunga Din"
"The Ballad of East and West" (which single-handedly gives the lie to any accusation that Kipling was a racist)
"Tommy"
("Yes, making mock of uniforms that guard you while you sleep / Is cheaper than them uniforms, and they're starvation cheap;")
"The English Flag"
("...what should they know of England who only England know?")
"For All We Have and Are" and its' poignant counterpoint "Epitaphs for the War 1914-18" (Kipling lost his own son in WW1)
"Verses on Games"
"The Children's Song" from "Puck of Pook Hill"
the famous stoic anthem "If..."
most of the introductory verses he wrote for Fletcher's "A History of England"

and:
the haunting, prophetic, awesome imagery of "Recessional"
("Far-called, our navies melt away; / On dune and headland sinks the fire: / Lo, all our pomp of yesterday / Is one with Nineveh and Tyre! / Judge of the Nations, spare us yet, / Lest we forget - lest we forget!").

Kipling: great phrase-making, terrible mockney accents.

[Catch]

[LI]
Strangely enough I liked it a lot and didn't see the racism in it.


He's talking about the colonization of the Philippines and their inhabitants.

"Your new-caught, sullen peoples,
Half-devil and half-child."

The assumption that a body of people who don't share your culture and religion are ignorant and evil? Racism.

[Reptilus]

He also refers to the conception of White Man's Burden numerous and times and the general tone of his pieces is explaining the virtues of these "Savage" people while still recognizing them as lesser men. They just happen to be lesser men with courage or a quick wit or some other admirable quality.

[bosssmiley]

He's talking about the colonization of the Philippines and their inhabitants.
"Your new-caught, sullen peoples,
Half-devil and half-child."

The assumption that a body of people who don't share your culture and religion are ignorant and evil? Racism.

Poetic phrase-making, not the assertion of a socio-political creed on Kipling's part. Kipling was no racist, more in thrall to the "not how we do things in the Home Counties" exoticism of foreign lands.
Kipling != ZOMGracism!!! He knew (and loved) India, its culture and its people too well to be the type of 'little Englander' bigot he's often dismissed as. :smallannoyed:

The assumption that a bunch of people who don't share the advantages of modern science and medicine, (relatively) enlightened government, the rule of law, political stability, universal public education, etc. might be worse off than you isn't really racist, is it? I'm not sure a prejudice in favour of these things can even be called racist.

Point: this couplet of WMB, counterpoint: either "Gunga Din" or "The Ballad of East and West".

[Catch]

The assumption that a bunch of people who don't share the advantages of modern science and medicine, (relatively) enlightened government, the rule of law, political stability, universal public education, etc. might be worse off than you isn't really racist, is it? I'm not sure a prejudice in favour of these things can even be called racist.

Perhaps not, but lacking the cultural relativism to recognize and accept a different means of life than your own isn't exactly admirable.

[Allandaros]

Catch, while I'm no fan of the sentiments expressed in WMB*, it's important to point out that hardly ANY of Kipling's British contemporaries possessed said cultural relativism. Kipling's derogatory comments towards Indians and Muslims used to bother me a LOT when I was little (it's not fun to read about people like you being called backwards), but I realized later that to properly grok it, I had to engage in a bit of cultural relativism of my own. The sentiment of cultural relativity didn't exist for Kipling's time period. You wind up having to bite the bullet, accept that it's there, get over it, and enjoy the cool bits of the stories. I say this as someone whose nation and ancestors were under the White Man's Burden for a looooong long time. :/

A note regarding the "virtues" Kipling ascribes to, say, Indians - while they may be given "honest to a fault" or "martial" or "honorable," they never get called "merciful" or "compassionate" or the like...in sharp contrast to the white guy in the story.

*The sentiments in "Tommy", on the other hand...

[ZombieRockStar]

It's important to note Kipling's transition, though, from an apologist for imperialism to a critic, with satirical poems like Shillin' a Day (http://whitewolf.newcastle.edu.au/words/authors/K/KiplingRudyard/verse/volumeXI/shillinaday.html) in his later years.

Sometimes his position on British imperial conquest is a bit ambiguous.

[Allandaros]

I see Shillin' a Day as more critical of the shabby treatment soldiers often received - something which Kipling consistently condemned (see The Last of the Light Brigade (http://www.cs.rice.edu/~ssiyer/minstrels/poems/357.html) and Tommy (http://www.cs.rice.edu/~ssiyer/minstrels/poems/43.html) as further evidence).

[Sundog]

Kipling was one of the first writers to question, even obliquely, the fundamentals of English/British society in his time, and their treatment of those they colonized, or the unthinking racism inherent in those systems. I do not think we should condemn him for not going as far as, perhaps, others would do in the future; rather, we should praise him for the courage to build a foundation upon which others would build.