PDA

View Full Version : Cool ToB concepts



elliott20
2007-04-13, 10:26 AM
So, I've been reading the ToB for quite some time now and I've been trying to come up with cool NPC builds that can be integrated into my friend's homebrew campaign world. (we sort of all pitch in collaborating on this)

For the most part though, my builds usually are just straight up swordsage or straight up warblade with different moves thrown in for variety. But I haven't really been able to wrapped my head around how to use this in conjunction with multiclassinig core and other books into ToB.

I was just wondering what people have come up with so far.

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2007-04-13, 10:32 AM
You could try mixing ToB with Incarnum; if you aren't familiar, it's a martially delicious supplement containing a new form of 'magic item' (Soulmelds) that the character forms out of, you guessed it, their soul each day- these generally grant pretty amazing new abilities, and the classes offers a goodly amount of synergy with Warblades in my opinion.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-13, 10:34 AM
-Different builds are possible with the ToB classes taken straight up. I like mixing a little Psychic Warrior into Swordsage or Warblade, myself. My favorite ToB build/design is a dagger-wielding, Shadow-Blade using PsyWar 2/Swordsage X/Bloodclaw Master 2. Use the Unarmed Strike adaptation and you get a character who's pretty good for representing a brutal infighting style (kali intermixed with Muay Thai style strikes).

JackMage666
2007-04-13, 10:37 AM
I always love making unarmed fighters, using the Superior Unarmed Fighting feat. That'll throw the players for a ringer...

DM "He comes at you, wearing a breastplate, with his fist."
Player "Yeah, like I'm afraid of 1d3 damage"
DM "You mean 1d10"
Player "Wha.. But he's not a monk?"

Hehe..


Also, you can use that one Shadow Hand feat to make some seriously deadly rogues. If you want abuse, make a Swordsage/Swashbuckler, specializing in the Shadow Hand discipline. Int, Str, and Dex to damage. Now, if only we can add Cha, Con, and Wis. Sure, that mix only works with certain weapons, but a Shortsword works (or, if you're ambitious, dual short swords). I always thought that would make an interesting villian for the PCs, anyway.

elliott20
2007-04-13, 10:38 AM
yeah, my feelings are that the ToB classes are probably the first I've seen a melee class actually having a reason to carry themselves all the way through all 20 levels and still managed to have a lot of variety in between. That's why most of my builds with ToB so far have just been Swordsage 20, but with focuses in different arts.

PrCs like the Phoenix warrior or whatever it's called gives you a template/goal to do an arcane caster/warrior build. (Combine that class with the Arcane Strike power in CW and you have one scary little mofo)

elliott20
2007-04-13, 10:39 AM
I always love making unarmed fighters, using the Superior Unarmed Fighting feat. That'll throw the players for a ringer...

DM "He comes at you, wearing a breastplate, with his fist."
Player "Yeah, like I'm afraid of 1d3 damage"
DM "You mean 1d10"
Player "Wha.. But he's not a monk?"

Hehe..


Also, you can use that one Shadow Hand feat to make some seriously deadly rogues. If you want abuse, make a Swordsage/Swashbuckler, specializing in the Shadow Hand discipline. Int, Str, and Dex to damage. Now, if only we can add Cha, Con, and Wis. Sure, that mix only works with certain weapons, but a Shortsword works (or, if you're ambitious, dual short swords). I always thought that would make an interesting villian for the PCs, anyway.
That build would have crazy MAD though.

storybookknight
2007-04-13, 10:43 AM
I always love making unarmed fighters, using the Superior Unarmed Fighting feat. That'll throw the players for a ringer...

DM "He comes at you, wearing a breastplate, with his fist."
Player "Yeah, like I'm afraid of 1d3 damage"
DM "You mean 1d10"
Player "Wha.. But he's not a monk?"

Hehe..


Also, you can use that one Shadow Hand feat to make some seriously deadly rogues. If you want abuse, make a Swordsage/Swashbuckler, specializing in the Shadow Hand discipline. Int, Str, and Dex to damage. Now, if only we can add Cha, Con, and Wis. Sure, that mix only works with certain weapons, but a Shortsword works (or, if you're ambitious, dual short swords). I always thought that would make an interesting villian for the PCs, anyway.

You can't add Wis on every attack, but you can add it to all of your martial strikes! There's a feat for that.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-13, 10:45 AM
It's not a feat, it's a Swordsage class ability.

CHA to damage comes from Divine Might, WIS to damage from Swordsage (on Strikes). CON to damage is impossible.

A couple of alternatives for WIS to damage are the Sacred Fist's "sacred flames" ability (limited use/day), and the Battlesmith's first-level ability (only works with hammers, though, so it's incompatible with Shadow Blade).

JackMage666
2007-04-13, 10:47 AM
That build would have crazy MAD though.

Yeah, it would. It would at least be a good way to eliminate dependency on Str for such a character, though, as you'd still get good damage and Weapon Finesse. Plus, lots of skills.

But yeah, Wis/Int/Str/Dex is alot of MAD. Good thing you can completely ignore Cha, though!

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-13, 10:48 AM
Frankly, Swordsages are fine with nothing but DEX and WIS, with a little CON. Alternatively, replace Dex with Strength for a bruiser-type swordsage... although I always go Dex-TWFer with a Swordsage because it's one of the few ways to make it viable and cool.

elliott20
2007-04-13, 10:52 AM
Yeah, it would. It would at least be a good way to eliminate dependency on Str for such a character, though, as you'd still get good damage and Weapon Finesse. Plus, lots of skills.

But yeah, Wis/Int/Str/Dex is alot of MAD. Good thing you can completely ignore Cha, though!
Hello, CHA 3! :smallbiggrin:

I wonder how well the cleric or paladin meshes with the crusader as a build.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-13, 10:54 AM
Crusader/Cleric is a perfect entry into Ruby Knight Vindicator.

Paladin/Crusader is pretty pointless, since the Crusader is basically A Paladin, But Better.
I suppose Paladin 4/Crusader X could be all right. You get CHA to all saves rather than just Will, and get Turn Undead to fuel Divine feats with if you take them.

JackMage666
2007-04-13, 11:51 AM
I could have sworn I saw a feat in the Tome of Battle that allowed Dex to damage with the discipline favored weapons. I could be wrong, but I'm away from my books right now, so I can't check. If I remember correctly, it only works while in a Shadow Hand stance (not like that's a problem), and, thus, has a Shadow Hand manuever requirement. Like I said, I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that was the feat.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-13, 11:56 AM
Yeah, the feat is Shadow Blade.

storybookknight
2007-04-13, 12:02 PM
Sorry, class ability. A player is playing one in my IRL game and a second player has the book, but I don't have it on hand to check things. Probably I will buy it, oh I dunno, this summer or something.

Crusader is pretty good, but I will say this:

If you are a DM, do not run an NPC or cohort crusader. THERE IS MORE BOOKKEEPING THAN YOU WANT TO DEAL WITH. Damage delays, which maneuvers they have this round... it is a sad and awful thing.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-13, 12:03 PM
If you are a PC, however, run a Crusader. They are Tanky McTankTanks.

elliott20
2007-04-13, 01:31 PM
oh man, a CODzilla/Crusader would be all sorts of new age cheese.

martyboy74
2007-04-13, 04:10 PM
yeah, my feelings are that the ToB classes are probably the first I've seen a melee class actually having a reason to carry themselves all the way through all 20 levels and still managed to have a lot of variety in between. That's why most of my builds with ToB so far have just been Swordsage 20, but with focuses in different arts.
On the other hand, the sheer awesomeness of the PrCs in ToB make that nigh impossible. After all...

Jade Phoenix Mages have the coolest capstone ability ever. They explode. Low on health? explode. Surrounded? expolde. Outsiders? explode. Explode? explode. Come back a few rounds later with all your hp.

Deathcow
2007-04-13, 04:39 PM
If you are a PC, however, run a Crusader. They are Tanky McTankTanks.

Really? I haven't looked at Crusaders too much myself, but everyone I know who has says they suck because they get random maneuvers instead of having all of them at the beginning of every fight.

Ramza00
2007-04-13, 04:47 PM
Really? I haven't looked at Crusaders too much myself, but everyone I know who has says they suck because they get random maneuvers instead of having all of them at the beginning of every fight.
Yes they get random manuevers, that doesn't mean crusader sucks. Your friends are full of sh!t or they never seen someone play a crusader.

Amiria
2007-04-13, 04:58 PM
Yeah, Crusaders rock, even without the Extra Granted Maneuver feat, although I advise to take it. The random granted maneuver are just a minor balancing inconvenience (the bookeeping part is a bit awkward).

Devoted Spirit is a very good discipline and exclusive to them. They heal themselves and their buddies while they attack. Together with their other class features they are indeed excellent tanks.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-04-13, 05:01 PM
Really? I haven't looked at Crusaders too much myself, but everyone I know who has says they suck because they get random maneuvers instead of having all of them at the beginning of every fight.Not a problem. You ready your good ones, and you take Extra Granted Maneuver. It not only increases your chances of having the maneuver you want, but increases the your recovery speed as well. Even ignoring that though, the Crusader is, hands down, the best of the three ToB base classes, for one simple reason; he never has to waste actions recovering maneuvers.

The_Snark
2007-04-13, 05:04 PM
I don't know about that; the warblade recovers maneuvers as a swift action, after hitting somebody. A standard melee attack isn't exactly the best option for a warblade, but if you're out of good maneuvers you aren't doing anything else anyway. And they have the advantage of having all their maneuvers available to them right at the beginning, which makes White Raven a better choice for a warblade than for a crusader.

Crusaders are still good, though.

Exarch
2007-04-13, 05:35 PM
So...is there any difference between the Tomb of Battle and the Book of the Nine Swords? I have the BotNS, but I just keep hearing about the ToB. Just for personal reference.

Douglas
2007-04-13, 05:37 PM
Devoted Spirit is a very good discipline and exclusive to them.
Not quite. Swordsage/Master of Nine also has access to Devoted Spirit, and the Martial Study feat ignores class discipline restrictions.

Edit: "Tome of Battle" is the main title, "The Book of Nine Swords" is the subtitle. The full official title is "Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords". They are the same book.

Dausuul
2007-04-13, 05:40 PM
I don't know about that; the warblade recovers maneuvers as a swift action, after hitting somebody. A standard melee attack isn't exactly the best option for a warblade, but if you're out of good maneuvers you aren't doing anything else anyway. And they have the advantage of having all their maneuvers available to them right at the beginning, which makes White Raven a better choice for a warblade than for a crusader.

Dual-wielding warblade with Stormguard Warrior. Recharge your maneuvers with a full attack, which you also use to power up Stormguard. On the following round, unleash the fury.

Of course, this assumes you have an opponent who's dumb enough to stick around...

AmoDman
2007-04-13, 07:26 PM
Well there needs to be definitive difference between Warblades and Crusaders, doesn't there? Warblade offers the beefy (D12) sort of gung ho do whatever type mastery of maneuvers, and Crusader offers the the soak up damage, throw it back in your enemies faces and never die supplemented with manuevers option.

Then swordsage...well, that's the "Blade Magic" Master.

Cool ToB concept? Any ToB class. Done.

martyboy74
2007-04-13, 07:34 PM
Dual-wielding warblade with Stormguard Warrior. Recharge your maneuvers with a full attack, which you also use to power up Stormguard. On the following round, unleash the fury.

Of course, this assumes you have an opponent who's dumb enough to stick around...
This works better if you use Avalanche of Blades. Time Butress shields eliminate this 'Ohmygodi'mgonnadie" factor when taking really strong attacks.

ExHunterEmerald
2007-04-13, 07:40 PM
Hmmm. I have a finesse-assassin-type swordsage Shadow-Hander going. I haven't taken TWF, but I'm considering it. My two level one feats were Shadow Blade and Adaptive Style. Worth looking into?

Krimm_Blackleaf
2007-04-13, 07:44 PM
I like really savage tiger-claw users. Though I don't like many of the Tiger Claw discipline associated weapons. I made a tiger-claw warblade that uses a greatfalchion, he was fun.

Annarrkkii
2007-04-13, 08:18 PM
Building on the TWF AoO monster:

Robilar's Gambit, Karmic Strike, Combat Reflexes, Stormguard Warrior... THEN add the Avalanche of Blades.

Anyway, I resent the "hands down" comment about Crusaders being the best. That's the wonderfulness of ToB: there is no best. There genuinely isn't. Their is, to a degree, "better." But everyone excels in their own way.

PnP Fan
2007-04-14, 12:40 AM
I've put together an Aerenal Elven Swordsage/Cleric (Priest of the Valaes Taern, an extra militant branch of the Taernedal), and it seems to work reasonably well. Most of the SS maneuvers are strikes to get extra damage (capitalizing on my fairly high Concentration skill to make Diamond Mind lots of fun). My stances and spells are for party buff. The Dex and Wis mods make wearing a darkwood breastplate a decent armor option, and still allows for some stealth (when I joined the game we had a:no healer, b: no stealth/scouting, and c: I really wanted to use ToB). And, since I've got an extra cool, flexible DM, he let me re-write the flavor text for the Ruby Knight Vindicator to something more appropriate for a Taernedal spec-ops priest (The Tairnedal Incarnate). We're around 7th level, and I don't expect the game to last to high levels (our rarely do), so I'm not particularly worried about "traditional" party builds, or maxing out the utility of my character, or losing a level or two of casting ability. So yeah, mellee priest running around slicing fools up with a scimitar (only one) basically.

ZekeArgo
2007-04-14, 12:43 PM
-Different builds are possible with the ToB classes taken straight up. I like mixing a little Psychic Warrior into Swordsage or Warblade, myself. My favorite ToB build/design is a dagger-wielding, Shadow-Blade using PsyWar 2/Swordsage X/Bloodclaw Master 2. Use the Unarmed Strike adaptation and you get a character who's pretty good for representing a brutal infighting style (kali intermixed with Muay Thai style strikes).

I'm curious about this build bears. Currently working on something similar so I hope you dont mind a stat steal. What disciplines did you decide to focus on? Thinking Desert Wind/Shadow Hand/Tiger Claw for sheer awesomeness.

Thoughts on utilizing Insightful Strike to increase AB? And from what you've said I'm guessing it'd be along the lines of a single dagger + unarmed strike for dual wielding: kinda a street/knife fighting image?

argentsaber
2007-04-14, 01:00 PM
I am about to start playing a Jade Pheonix Mage ex-wu jen/samurai/swordsage, and if i am correct, you can use arcane wrath and arcane strike in hte same round (with two seperate spells obviously) since one is a swift action, and one is free. Also, I think arcane wrath aplies to every strike in an avalanch of blades maneuver. Just a scary thought.
my real question though is how everyone feels about dipping into warblade for a level or two later on to gain a handful of easily recovered "staple attacks" like mountain hammer or disarming strike.
PS: a bard/sublime chord version of this could gain any one stance or maneuver desired with a level 2 "heroics" spell by using martial maneuver and martial stance feats (on fighter list). this strikes me as silly if you make a wand for it.

Annarrkkii
2007-04-14, 02:02 PM
Duelists make surprisingly awesome ToB characters. Rogue 3/Swordsage X/Duelist 5 is a nice build, even though entering Duelist takes awhile. Int and Wis to AC in light armor, +1d6 damage with finessed weapons, and some interesting other abilities mean you can jump around as a highly mobile damage-dealer. Works well with a Setting Sun character, with a smattering of Diamond Mind. Being a halfling helps, too.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-14, 03:33 PM
I'm curious about this build bears. Currently working on something similar so I hope you dont mind a stat steal. What disciplines did you decide to focus on? Thinking Desert Wind/Shadow Hand/Tiger Claw for sheer awesomeness.

Thoughts on utilizing Insightful Strike to increase AB? And from what you've said I'm guessing it'd be along the lines of a single dagger + unarmed strike for dual wielding: kinda a street/knife fighting image?

For disciplines, a slight focus on Tiger Claw, but cherrypicking appropriate maneuvers from all the schools; I wind up with Desert Wind, Shadow Hand, Tiger Claw, and Diamond Mind mostly. A lot more boosts than strikes (since you want to be able to TWF, which takes a full attack). Burning Blade and the other boosts like it are good; you should also take a bunch of the Diamond Mind "concentration check for X" maneuvers, since Psychic Warrior grants you Psionic Focus and you can expend Psionic Focus to take 15 on a concentration check. This gives your Insightful Strike maneuver a base of 30 damage (plus double your concentration check modifier), your Mind Over Body saving throw replacement maneuver a base roll of 15 plus your Concentration modifier, et cetera.
At low levels, you basically just TWF as normaly, and occasionally use a boost or strike. Your combo is Wolf Fang Strike + Burning Blade; make two attacks as a standard action (i.e. after moving) with extra damage on'em.

Feat-wise, it's a bit tight:
1: Swordsage 1 - Shadow Blade, Weapon Focus (from the Swordsage class ability), Adaptive Style
2: Psychic Warrior 1 - Weapon Finesse
3: Psychic Warrior 2 - Psionic Meditation (regain psionic focus as a move action); I generally pick up the Force Screen power, and something more utilitarian like Conceal Thoughts. You can make use of handy dorjes, too.
After that, take Swordsage until you can jump into Bloodclaw Master, and then take BCM whenever you'd pick up a Tiger Claw maneuver anyway (or take it ASAP for the class features).
The swordsage's Insightful Strike class feature should go to Tiger Claw (you'll be using Pouncing Charge every encounter once you get it).

Dagger+Unarmed Strike works; I usually do two daggers and just intermix unarmed strikes for flavor, or two shortswords and roleplay them as long knives.

You'll wind up heavy on DEX, with CON and WIS secondary. Between the WIS to AC in light armor (Celestial Armor from the DMG will be what you want to eventually get), Force Screen (manifest it just before or on the first round of combat), and the like, you should have a solid AC. Your high DEX applies to damage thanks to Shadow Blade. Picking up Shadow Jaunt (swapping it out for the higher-level equivalents eventually) makes you more mobile and is useful out of combat.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-14, 04:45 PM
Thri-Kreen Swordsages focusing on Tiger Claw are utterly ridonculous, particularly if they hit Bloodclaw Master and/or Master of Nine.

NEO|Phyte
2007-04-14, 05:02 PM
Thri-Kreen Swordsages focusing on Tiger Claw are utterly ridonculous, particularly if they hit Bloodclaw Master and/or Master of Nine.
/agree

Haven't actually seen one in action yet, but just from the numbers, it looks to be win.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-14, 05:23 PM
Only assuming a house rule that lets Bloodclaw Master work with Multiweapon Fighting rather than just Two-Weapon Fighting.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-14, 05:30 PM
Only assuming a house rule that lets Bloodclaw Master work with Multiweapon Fighting rather than just Two-Weapon Fighting.

Not really. Perfect Multiweapon Fighting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#perfectMultiweaponFighting) says that it replaces Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting for creatures with more than two arms.

True, the PrC gives an ability with the same name as Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting--that does the same thing as the feat--without granting it as a bonus feat. Honestly, though, I believe the intention was to give PTWF without having to demarcate the feat itself in a sidebar.

EDIT: Further, since Multiweapon Fighting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#multiweaponFighting) says it replaces Two-Weapon Fighting for creatures with more than two arms, you don't even need to change the qualifications or text of the ability of the Bloodclaw Master. The Multiweapon Fighting feat chain specifically says that it supplants the Two-Weapon Fighting feat chain for all intents and purposes.

NEO|Phyte
2007-04-14, 05:37 PM
True, the PrC gives an ability with the same name as Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting--that does the same thing as the feat--without granting it as a bonus feat. Honestly, though, I believe the intention was to give PTWF without having to demarcate the feat itself in a sidebar.
Ermm, can I have your version of the Bloodclaw master? Mine just has Superior Two-Weapon Fighting, which eliminates the TWF penalties.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-14, 05:53 PM
Ermm, can I have your version of the Bloodclaw master? Mine just has Superior Two-Weapon Fighting, which eliminates the TWF penalties.

I'm AFB, so I must have recalled incorrectly. However the "replacement" rule for TWF/MWF would still apply.

ZekeArgo
2007-04-15, 01:48 PM
For disciplines, a slight focus on Tiger Claw, but cherrypicking appropriate maneuvers from all the schools; I wind up with Desert Wind, Shadow Hand, Tiger Claw, and Diamond Mind mostly. A lot more boosts than strikes (since you want to be able to TWF, which takes a full attack). Burning Blade and the other boosts like it are good; you should also take a bunch of the Diamond Mind "concentration check for X" maneuvers, since Psychic Warrior grants you Psionic Focus and you can expend Psionic Focus to take 15 on a concentration check. This gives your Insightful Strike maneuver a base of 30 damage (plus double your concentration check modifier), your Mind Over Body saving throw replacement maneuver a base roll of 15 plus your Concentration modifier, et cetera.
At low levels, you basically just TWF as normaly, and occasionally use a boost or strike. Your combo is Wolf Fang Strike + Burning Blade; make two attacks as a standard action (i.e. after moving) with extra damage on'em.

Feat-wise, it's a bit tight:
1: Swordsage 1 - Shadow Blade, Weapon Focus (from the Swordsage class ability), Adaptive Style
2: Psychic Warrior 1 - Weapon Finesse
3: Psychic Warrior 2 - Psionic Meditation (regain psionic focus as a move action); I generally pick up the Force Screen power, and something more utilitarian like Conceal Thoughts. You can make use of handy dorjes, too.
After that, take Swordsage until you can jump into Bloodclaw Master, and then take BCM whenever you'd pick up a Tiger Claw maneuver anyway (or take it ASAP for the class features).
The swordsage's Insightful Strike class feature should go to Tiger Claw (you'll be using Pouncing Charge every encounter once you get it).

Dagger+Unarmed Strike works; I usually do two daggers and just intermix unarmed strikes for flavor, or two shortswords and roleplay them as long knives.

You'll wind up heavy on DEX, with CON and WIS secondary. Between the WIS to AC in light armor (Celestial Armor from the DMG will be what you want to eventually get), Force Screen (manifest it just before or on the first round of combat), and the like, you should have a solid AC. Your high DEX applies to damage thanks to Shadow Blade. Picking up Shadow Jaunt (swapping it out for the higher-level equivalents eventually) makes you more mobile and is useful out of combat.

Hmm, interesting stuff. Actually just had a bit of a revelation: Dipping Incarate/Totemist would net you a far greater number of abilities, saves, and if totemist skill points than the psychic warrior dip, though you lose two feats (one of which is used to gain another psionic power, so technically one feat).

With Totemist 2 you'd have 3 soulmelds, 2 essentia and a chakra bind, so you could slap on say, Blink Shirt to your totem chakra for free Shadow Jaunt every round (which opens up another maneuver slot until you can access the free action version) then whatever other fluff items you want (+hide/move silently, natural armor, featherfall, whatever)

Seems like a decent tradeoff to me.