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View Full Version : I wrote a piece talking about alternative ways to use ogres in rpgs.



Rfkannen
2015-04-04, 04:14 PM
Yeah I was thinking boat how in most rpgs ogres are always just stupid brutes, so I wrote a post about alterntive ways to use them. What do you think? Is it useful?

http://rfkannen.tumblr.com/post/115507733873/a-guide-to-the-incorporation-of-the-classic

Ralanr
2015-04-04, 04:23 PM
Interesting. Makes me think that in some settings the first ogres were incredibly cruel beings whose actions slowly devolved them to a more primitive state. If this definition was taken to how regular ogres are made, then it could explain why there are few to none female ogres. Ogres would just be asexual.

Keltest
2015-04-04, 04:39 PM
Interesting. Makes me think that in some settings the first ogres were incredibly cruel beings whose actions slowly devolved them to a more primitive state. If this definition was taken to how regular ogres are made, then it could explain why there are few to none female ogres. Ogres would just be asexual.

Sounds a lot like what happened in Dragonlance to me.

Waldmarschallin
2015-04-04, 04:47 PM
The idea of the ogre as the other can be applied to so much of mythology, you've done a great job assembling this history of the concept. We can further its relationship to "othering" by remembering the transgressiveness of ogre intimacy- the fairy tales in which ogres try to buy young maidens for marriage (I forget where I first read this) which plays off race-baiting fears, of making the different ones as fearsome as possible, i.e. by depicting them to be more than ordinarily capable of the most heinous of crimes, a perception that would certainly be reinforced during times of invasion by a foreign power which can be effectively extended to fear or hatred of all outsiders, and would be cherished by society in times of change, to maintain status apart from newcomers.

We've tried to address some of this in the context of orcs in our games, even if only in background material and in some speeches, but rabble rousing against orcs or monstrous humanoids or goblinoids is very common in our political system, so these issues are never far from the table. You've really added to the discussion with the history and theory here. Thanks!

Ralanr
2015-04-04, 07:30 PM
Sounds a lot like what happened in Dragonlance to me.

Never experienced Dragonlance. All I really know about it are basics of the draconians.

Maglubiyet
2015-04-05, 12:52 AM
Never experienced Dragonlance. All I really know about it are basics of the draconians.

On Krynn, the Ur-Ogres were a hedonistic race prone to poetry and sculpture. Then they fell and became the stupid brutes in the Monster Manual.

johnbragg
2015-04-05, 05:53 AM
"Those to whom evil is done
Do evil in return-WH AUden"


I've been playing with a world-building idea, but it would essentially make a setting PG-13, which runs against some of my instincts to keep things somewhat child-friendly.

"Orcs" are not a separate race, they are (mostly) humans twisted through cruelty, mostly intramural and initiating cruelty.

The idea takes inspiration from modern cults-of-cruelty such as {if you don't know, I can't explain without breaking the forum rules, but google "reintegrating child soldiers"}, combined with plot-patterns from the arch-Christian comics from the '80s where D&D and marijuana led to Satanism and child sacrifice, and the life experiences of neglected and abused children who grow up to abuse--cruelty and violence are normalized, and supplement and replace normal human bonding practices.

So if you get captured by the orcs, if you're young enough to adapt, over a period of years either you're either killed, or you become one of them. Through years of recreational and purposeful cruelty and abuse, empathy and compassion are burned away, replaced by the (in-setting) endorphin rush of Evil. (Insert also facial tattooing, scarification, etc.)

{Chauvinist trope here} Significantly more males than females survive the initiation process to become orcs. "Half-orcs" bred with captive (non-orc) female captives are fairly common, treat as base orcs. Orc females occassionally bear half-orcs, either with other evil creatures or through the orc tradition of raping captives.

Much rarer are the whelps of full-blooded orc unions. These are Ogres, who because of their brawn often assume positions of leadership in the tribe despite their low intelligence.

EDIT: Also inspired by zombie movies, for the plot point of "That's not Jack anymore!"

KillianHawkeye
2015-04-07, 01:15 AM
The idea takes inspiration from modern cults-of-cruelty such as {if you don't know, I can't explain without breaking the forum rules, but google "reintegrating child soldiers"}, combined with plot-patterns from the arch-Christian comics from the '80s where D&D and marijuana led to Satanism and child sacrifice, and the life experiences of neglected and abused children who grow up to abuse--cruelty and violence are normalized, and supplement and replace normal human bonding practices.

So if you get captured by the orcs, if you're young enough to adapt, over a period of years either you're either killed, or you become one of them. Through years of recreational and purposeful cruelty and abuse, empathy and compassion are burned away, replaced by the (in-setting) endorphin rush of Evil. (Insert also facial tattooing, scarification, etc.)

Sounds a lot like the Reavers from Joss Whedon's Firefly/Serenity.

mig el pig
2015-04-07, 04:09 AM
Yeah I was thinking boat how in most rpgs ogres are always just stupid brutes, so I wrote a post about alterntive ways to use them. What do you think? Is it useful?

http://rfkannen.tumblr.com/post/115507733873/a-guide-to-the-incorporation-of-the-classic

Intresting read, especially They, in many cases, had some sort of higher power, the power of the government. intrigued me.
Because Ogres, in many fairytales, still participate in ancient social customs like guest-right or gift-giving. So they are a part of the society but they try to subvert the rules so that can 'legally' eat/punish those who made a transgression.

BWR
2015-04-07, 04:49 AM
The ogres in Rokugan used to have a great and powerful empire. They were 'chosen' race of the time to fight in the great battle against Hell that occurs every thousand years or so. They failed and their empire failed and they went into a slow decline. When the god Fu Leng fell from the heavens into hell and roes to conquer the world, they, by their own legends, refused to bend knee to him and he cursed them not only with Taint but brutish stupidity. The last knowledge of their empire was hidden away over one thousand years ago but recently some of their number have been regaining intelligence and lore of their lost glory.

Ogres in Mystara have (at least) three distinct subraces and they (like most other humanoids) have roughly the same culture as the surrounding demi/humans, so in Not-Mongolland you have Not-Mongol ogres, you have Not-Indian ogre expatriates in the Broken Lands, you have mysterious possibly-guardian ogres in the Thunder Rift as well as the normal brutish enemy tribe in the woods. They are still described as pretty dim by human standards, but not necessarily culture-less monsters.

JeenLeen
2015-04-07, 10:28 AM
I think I've seen a couple fantasy games where ogres are relatively peaceful, possibly herbivores, and only have a bad reputation because of territorial fights and humans treating them like monsters because they are a little dull (or just look at things in an inhuman fashion, which comes across as being dim-witted) and they look like ferocious monsters. In some they have strong shamanistic practices. I think the computer game Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Sorcery had ogres like that, but I don't recall. The webcomic Dominic Deegan's orcs are in this vein.

endur
2015-04-07, 11:29 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogre_(game)

johnbragg
2015-04-08, 05:04 AM
Sounds a lot like the Reavers from Joss Whedon's Firefly/Serenity.

Also include an inversion of the Portrait of Dorian Grey--in a magical fantasy universe, consistently doing awful things on a long term basis can easily produce physical transformation, an outward reflection of the traumatized psyche.


Intresting read, especially They, in many cases, had some sort of higher power, the power of the government. intrigued me.
Because Ogres, in many fairytales, still participate in ancient social customs like guest-right or gift-giving. So they are a part of the society but they try to subvert the rules so that can 'legally' eat/punish those who made a transgression.

Also here the Cyclops from The Odyssey, where guest-right is a big item. When they arrive and the cave is unattended, Odysseus persuades his men not to steal whatever they can carry off and be gone, because the owmer may return and give something even greater as a guest-gift. Cyclops pretends to accept Odysseus and his men as guests, then offers Odysseus his "guest-gift"--to be eaten last. But the Cyclops is outside society, so doesn't have to follow the rules.