continuing the Druid Lichdom discussions

[Waldmarschallin]

I've seen a few threads on this topic over the past year, and one of them was interesting enough that I posted to it today- I should have read more carefully, I necromanced the thread, ad I'm sorry for that. I do want to resume the discussion legally though (I play a druid leich). Earlier talk compared the loss of hitpoints possible for druids and clerics who become Leichen, the possibility of natural attacks, the possibility of losing wild shape- then someone pointed out that under 3.5 rules Leichen can polymorph themselves and that that should work on wild shape too.

This is one of the advantages of what I do. (Using the good leich variant from Libris Mortis of course: if you're not using that then you've got to be evil obviously. One time my partner hit me with a Deep One invasion of my home island. I had a few NPC archers with me but nothing much beyond me and my animal companion. (he is a dire snake/king cobra awakened and entered into leichdom after taking sufficient levels of cleric) I was able to respond by wild shaping into a giant octopus (which being undead could exist just fine out of water), casting wind walk on myself, and flying at a speed of 300 feet (poor maneuverability) with 8 reaching tentacle paralysis attacks- a great way to quickly dispatch lots of mid-level mooks. It was terrifying- imagine a 15 foot octopus zooming over an attempted Normandy landing, paralyzing all it touches, and having a fear aura to boot. Meanwhile my grossly rules-abused animal companion was grappling all who made their save and paralyzing many more- his paralysis attack has actually killed us two shoggoths from CoC 3.0 rules too-. but yeah, airborne octopus at 300fpr, 8 paralysis attacks at 15 foot reach. Also, under 3.0 the leich template only is 2 level adjustment rather than the 4 I see referenced most often. In my opinion it would be worth 2 levels in most cases just for paralysia and natural armor, to say nothing of ability enhancers. The creation cost of the phylactery is significant as a deterrent however.

The character concept was an imperfect bargain to eternally guard nature while not being a part of it, which has estranged my character from some fellow druids, and will probably disturb her increasingly as time progresses.

[Jack_Simth]

I've seen a few threads on this topic over the past year, and one of them was interesting enough that I posted to it today- I should have read more carefully, I necromanced the thread, ad I'm sorry for that. I do want to resume the discussion legally though (I play a druid leich). Earlier talk compared the loss of hitpoints possible for druids and clerics who become Leichen, the possibility of natural attacks, the possibility of losing wild shape- then someone pointed out that under 3.5 rules Leichen can polymorph themselves and that that should work on wild shape too.As I see it, you've basically got a few standard 'talking points':
1) A rather lot (not all) of DMs see lichdom as being a violation of the natural order. And thus, under those DM's, the undead state of a lich should be something that the Druid abhors rather violently, and thus is fall-worthy if they embrace it. This is, however, table-dependant... and, of course, there's the "A lich retains all class abilities it had in life" clause that may prevent a Druid from falling for doing so anyway.
2) Wildshape got errata'd. It's no longer based on Polymorph, and thus still applies (and as noted, a lich can explicitly use polymorph effects on itself if it so desires in 3.5, so even without the errata, you're fine there).
3) Druids need only take Craft Wondrous Item and level up enough as Druids to qualify for the template.
4) Druids have at least one alignment that is compatible with Lichdom (Neutral-Evil falls within both the spectrums of "any evil" and "any neutral").
5) The loss of a Con modifier is very significant. Yes, you go from a d8 to a d12... if you had a Con mod in excess of +2 (or could get one via magic items), however, you lose HP in the transition (unless you're playing Pathfinder, are becoming a Dry Lich, make use of that one dragon magazine elf feat, or make use of at least one of a few other sets of tricks, of course). Your Fort save goes down, but you also gain immunity to a rather lot of the effects that have a fort save (although again, there's tricks around the Fort save going down, depending on other things).


As to your specific scenario... the Lich's Touch Attack is a separate Supernatural ability. No action is specified, so it defaults to a standard action. Which means, among other things, no more than one opponent per round, and only on your turn.

[eggynack]

I'm not sure what exactly your question is, but the answer is that necromancer druids are sweet. You need to put a bunch of disparate pieces together in weird ways, but at the end of the day the resources are there to hit most flavor marks. The lich template is pretty mediocre, so it's not exactly my favorite way to pull things off, but there's nothing illegal about it that I can see. If you need a flavor justification, I would go with the idea that the undead are just as much a part of nature as anything else.

Some druids like to point and choose, saying, "Oh, this dog is nature, and this zombie isn't nature, and this spider is nature, and this aberration isn't nature," but putting one type of being above another on some hierarchy of the natural just seems rather egotistical. What claim do I have to say that a zombie created by a man is unnatural, while a dam created by a beaver is natural, or to say that, once you have a creature that's sufficiently weird, it's no longer natural? By this line of reasoning, putting man below nature is just as problematic as putting man above nature, and it is only through true oneness that we may find perfection. Something like that, anyway.

[OldTrees1]

Some druids like to point and choose, saying, "Oh, this dog is nature, and this zombie isn't nature, and this spider is nature, and this aberration isn't nature," but putting one type of being above another on some hierarchy of the natural just seems rather egotistical. What claim do I have to say that a zombie created by a man is unnatural, while a dam created by a beaver is natural, or to say that, once you have a creature that's sufficiently weird, it's no longer natural? By this line of reasoning, putting man below nature is just as problematic as putting man above nature, and it is only through true oneness that we may find perfection. Something like that, anyway.

I also follow this line of thought although I do think that there could be a case for Pseudonatural creatures outside the Far Realms being as unnatural as aquatic creatures in outer space.

[Phelix-Mu]

As usual, I like your thoughts eggy. But to my mind, both the man and zombie and the beaver a different dam are problematic if they disturb the rest of the ecosystem in large and permanent ways. Beavers can cause real damage to an ecosystem, and some druids might see fit to deal with them (in any number of ways alignment-wise).

But I agree that there is nothing unnatural about negative energy and it's manifestation in undead. The problem is in regard to balance and it's long-term viability. Some undead (shadows, wraith, wights, etc) can become a problem not by existing, but by what they do (multiply in a potentially exponential fashion), all the while marching around and killing stuff.

So it isn't so much about rubber-stamping the gs as natural or unnatural, but weighing the implications of what is on the future. But, as we all know, there are a great many ways for a druid to view this balance and to act on it, if they decide they have to care at all. The druid code is super wide open to interpretation.

[sleepyphoenixx]

There is definitely at least one (epic) lich druid in one of the FR books. I think it was Silver Marches, but i could be wrong. I do remember that the fluff was quite interesting though.

In general there are as many interpretations of the druid oath as there are druids. Undead may be unacceptable in the more mainstream ones, but there are traditions that hate and hunt anything from outsiders to fey to arcane casters to humanoids in general, so i wouldn't have a problem with it if a player can come up with a druidic philosophy that accepts undead.

[eggynack]

But, as we all know, there are a great many ways for a druid to view this balance and to act on it, if they decide they have to care at all. The druid code is super wide open to interpretation.
Yeah, the nature worship interpretation I posited definitely isn't the only one. Hell, it's not even the only one that can be used to justify a necromancy focused druid. Instead of a basic, "All is nature" viewpoint, you can also adopt the perspective that reanimation is just an alternative natural step in the life cycle, or you can be of the belief that you don't solely need to use natural tools to protect nature, because the ends justify the means.

[Sam K]

But I agree that there is nothing unnatural about negative energy and it's manifestation in undead. The problem is in regard to balance and it's long-term viability. Some undead (shadows, wraith, wights, etc) can become a problem not by existing, but by what they do (multiply in a potentially exponential fashion), all the while marching around and killing stuff.

Those undead seem to mostly target humanoids, though. An (evil) druid could see undead as a way to regulate the overpopulution of humanoids in a way that's guaranteed not to kill any trees

[Phelix-Mu]

Those undead seem to mostly target humanoids, though. An (evil) druid could see undead as a way to regulate the overpopulution of humanoids in a way that's guaranteed not to kill any trees

A quick examination of their monster entries mainly reveals, and I paraphrase, that they "hate all life," and seek to "destroy all life (and light)." I imagine the impression that they mainly target humanoids is because that is when humanoids actually start to notice, and when adventurers get hired. If a mysterious wandering wight murders cows or spoils the flora by the light of the moon, it is a mystery, not a crisis. This goes more to the egotism of humanoids than to whether undead actually kill other things or not.

Bored wights without better targets probably would just kill plants. They got nothing but time, and damn if those trees aren't an example and symbol of everything they hate. Smart undead would also screw up the environment as a force multiplier for their own hunting. You could hunt all the humans in a village, but it will be easier and more satisfying if you burn their crops before the harvest, forcing them to go hunting in small groups during the frozen months. Then they are easy pickings.

[Eox]

I'm rather fond of the Pathfinder solution (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/siabrae-cr-2) to eternal undead druids.

[atemu1234]

I'm rather fond of the Pathfinder solution (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/siabrae-cr-2) to eternal undead druids.

This is indeed interesting.

[Waldmarschallin]

Yeah, the nature worship interpretation I posited definitely isn't the only one. Hell, it's not even the only one that can be used to justify a necromancy focused druid. Instead of a basic, "All is nature" viewpoint, you can also adopt the perspective that reanimation is just an alternative natural step in the life cycle, or you can be of the belief that you don't solely need to use natural tools to protect nature, because the ends justify the means.


The "ends justify the means" is definitely the way my primary character understood it- taking herself out of nature to safeguard it better. Same reasons behind her pushing for the state to back druids in exchange for agriculture and conservation help, though that was a much easier choice- she has come to enjoy her leichdom though, especially how many encounters can be ended nonlethally with a paralyzing touch.

[Waldmarschallin]

I'm rather fond of the Pathfinder solution (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/siabrae-cr-2) to eternal undead druids.

Awesome! The blighted rebirth especially seems to offer a lot of storytelling possibilities, and potential for mischief. (Like putting lots of earth in large boxes to be carried on a Leiter wagon or aboard ship- whether the DM would permit that or no is an going to be a house variant of course). I tried to run a Dracula style intrigue a while back in which the PCs had to find the boxes of blighted earth and destroy them to gradually pin down the vamp- to justify that I'd homebrewed an item- the coffins were portals between each other, suitable for unintelligent undead's use. I also got creative and applied the vamp template to gelatinous cubes.

Wow- I know pathfinder has ability inflation but a combined +6modifier including 2 to wisdom seems really good! This looks quite effective