Am I doing it right?

[Sabeta]

So I just started 5e, my party is level 4 or so and we don't really get along too well. (not OoC, but the PCs themselves. We each have wildly different bonds that drive us and sometimes there's a conflict of interest)

I'm currently playing a Monk, and I went Path of Shadow. I don't think I've heard of many people doing this (Four Elements seems the most popular because of absurd damage early on), but my experiences are pretty limited.

Right now just punching things is kind of boring, so I try to create something creative to do with my Unarmed Strikes. Recently I got a a very high initiative at the start of the battle, and used my two unarmed attacks to smash the guys head into a pillar he was standing against. DM gave me some bonus damage for using the environment. I try to do something a little different every time, but honestly I feel like just running up and punching things will get old pretty quickly.

and that's where my Ninja powers come in. I've done a few cool things with this so far, including but not limited to clearing a room full of enemies (I imitated the leader's voice and told them to go doing something via Minor Illusion. Although a few passed the save the ones who were tricked managed to convince them to come with anyways.)

That being said, some of my friends in other groups keep telling me that Monk is pretty much worthless for damage. They'll say things like "Fighter and Rogue both have tons more damage, and can are pretty much unkillable" or "My warlock will soon have 25 AC, and with the Blur Spell they basically need to double crit in order to hit me ever, and I still do more damage than you" I don't care too much about things like optimization, but knowing that others within my own group will soon massively outclass me is kind of disheartening.

Are they just full of themselves, or should I start making plans for a heroic sacrifice so that I can reroll my character?
Sorry if this topic sounds a little whiny. If you guys suggest I keep my Monk, what things can I do to make her more interesting to play through the later levels? Right now I'm talking plans over to get a gauntlet/fist weapon. It'll start off ordinary (1d4 damage, but applies Martial Arts bonuses, so soon it'll be 1d6) but the DM says it may get powers depending on my playstyle.

[EvanescentHero]

From what I understand, monks are pretty great this edition. If the rest of your party is optimizing that heavily and you don't feel like it, you'll probably be outclassed, but I think your class choice is actually solid. What I wanna know is how the hell anyone's getting a 25 AC at all, let alone that early.

[Wartex1]

How did the Warlock manage 25 AC? That's impossible without magic items.

[calebrus]

That being said, some of my friends in other groups keep telling me that Monk is pretty much worthless for damage.
Your friends have no clue what they're talking about.


Are they just full of themselves, or should I start making plans for a heroic sacrifice so that I can reroll my character?
No need.
Monks aren't top tier damage, but they are absolutely up there, especially in the early levels.
In the later levels, their offense is still great, but they're also one of the more defensive classes available, making them very well balanced.

Your friends sound like they're used to 3e monks, and are using the 3e monk for comparison.
5e monks are badasses. Don't succumb to peer pressure, and just play/enjoy whatever class you want to. They're all perfectly viable in 5e.

[Madfellow]

Well, let's see. Starting next level you're going to have four attacks per turn, each at 1d6+4 (I estimate), with the mobility to ensure that you can always get to enough targets to use them all. And you'll have Stunning Strike, which is great for locking foes down. Monks' unarmored AC is great, and their mobility is unmatched. That said, the monk's strength doesn't necessarily lie in single-target DPS; the monk is the "death of a thousand cuts" class. Its strength lies in mobility and battlefield control.

[Grimstaff]

Yes, you're doing it right. Feel pity for your power gaming companions, for they are doomed to know only math, and not the joys of true storytelling :)

[Sabeta]

How did the Warlock manage 25 AC? That's impossible without magic items.

I should clarify. These "Friends" are in a different party. They are not level 4 like my party is, they're level 14 I believe. I don't know how they got 25 AC, but I know the spells Mage Armor and Blur are somehow a part of it.

As for something someone said.


each at 1d6+4 (I estimate), with the mobility to ensure that you can always get to enough targets to use them all.

Well here's something I've been doing wrong right now. I've been treating my damage as 2d4+3 (Regarding my low Dex stat, our DM forbids any base stat to exceed level 15 at base before racial modifiers factor in). I've been neglecting an extra +3 damage every single round, with another +3 every time I flurry of blows. The line about getting enough targets to use all of my punches though intrigues me. Flurry of Blows must be used immediately after the Attack Action, so is it possible to

Move
-Punch
-Flurry of Blows
Move to new enemy
-Punch
Move to new enemy
-Punch
Move to new enemy
-Punch

and assuming I have enough Ki to do so, could I attempt a stun on all of them? That seems a little ridiculous.

Finally, that comment about min/maxing characters. My group is not doing that. We have a Senile Warlock who is unaware that he can cast magic (he has done things like throwing up on monsters, or just tripping and falling), a Narcoleptic Barbarian (who is likely getting kicked from the grouped. He's missed more than half of the sessions), another Barbarian (who is retarded, and can only say "Hodar" his name), and a Bard who only recently learned she can sing (She's quite annoying. She picked bard class and then spent the first three levels ONLY stabbing enemies with TWF Daggers.)

I don't know much about the other group, but they have a Fighter Rogue, two Warlocks, and a bard. (one of the warlocks may actually be rogue, I forget)

[Mara]

Monks are super good. Your friends may have an inferiority complex. Also your warlock buddy will not have 25 AC without cheating or epics. A monk would have 30 AC in that situation.

I suggest you just smile and nod as their characters die from various things you just laugh off.

[Madfellow]

The line about getting enough targets to use all of my punches though intrigues me. Flurry of Blows must be used immediately after the Attack Action, so is it possible to

Move
-Punch
-Flurry of Blows
Move to new enemy
-Punch
Move to new enemy
-Punch
Move to new enemy
-Punch

and assuming I have enough Ki to do so, could I attempt a stun on all of them? That seems a little ridiculous.

I think it would go like this:
1) Move
2) Punch
3) Move
4) Punch
5) Move
6) Flurry of Blows punch
7) Move
8) Flurry of Blows punch
9) Move

And because moving isn't an action, there's nothing actually interrupting the transition from your Attack action to your Flurry of Blows bonus action, or the individual attacks within each.

And yes, you can stun all of them. Yes, it's ridiculous. :smallamused:

[Sabeta]

Thanks for the encouragement.

That being said if I stick with Monk what are some fun/cool/useful Multiclasses that I could take? I'm somewhat worried about losing some of those late game abilities/ASI, but if it makes sense for my character to do it then I probably will.

Like I said before, my DM will soon be allowing me to gain a custom fist weapon. It'll start off totally ordinary and uses my Martial Arts, but as I play it will gain powers. My character is currently afraid of becoming severely injured due to two near-death experiences. (The barbarian who keeps missing games left us without a tank too many times, and I had to be team leader. It didn't work well...The other barbarian is new to the group). Other than recent experiences she's a somewhat sociopathic outlander who was shunned from birth due to half-elf heritage, and is currently looking for her only friend who was captured by a cult. (I know we're following an adventure story. Something about a Dragon Cult, and the word Tiamat keeps being thrown around)

Again, given that info should I stay pure monk, or are there some fun multiclasses I could take?

[Madfellow]

Again, given that info should I stay pure monk, or are there some fun multiclasses I could take?

Rogue could be fun. :smallsmile:

[Sabeta]

Rogue could be fun. :smallsmile:

how so? Assasinate seems to be the biggest reason, as well as Uncanny Dodge, but I have yet to see an enemy surprised. So far every enemy has been aware of our presence even though we disguised ourselves as cultists. Even when I get really high Stealth scores (which I'm profficient in, so I've got +5) the DM will usually say something like "he already knew you were there before you were stealthed, so you weren't able to hide from him)

It seems the only time Stealth works the way I want it too is out of combat.

[Sabeta]

I've actually got another question, not related to Monk.

Hodar the retarded barbarian actually came with a custom saddle that allows someone to basically stand on his back and attack over his shoulders. For now we're treating him the same way you would treat a mount (He's a Giant by the way). The point of question right now is; is he intelligent? He has an Intelligence score of 10, but he RPs himself as completely retarded, and can only say his own name (He understands simple words, but is unable to say them).

If we mount him, should he continue to control himself, or should the mounter take control?

[Giant2005]

Monks don't really multiclass well.
I wouldn't advise it but you could go for Ranger 3 for either an extra attack via Horde Breaker or an animal companion that will do good damage but have really low HP (You will need Mounted Combatant and to be a small race to keep it alive).
Other options if your stats are good enough that you can multiclass into these classes without giving up too much is Barbarian and Paladin. Although with Paladin you will end up needing to take many levels of it to be worthwhile which will result in a character that is more Paladin than Monk. The Barbarian route would require you attacking with Strength to really be useful, otherwise it will just be providing Resistance while Raged which is something the Monk will eventually pick up on his own anyway.
IMP. you are best just sticking with Monk.

[-Jynx-]

I've actually got another question, not related to Monk.

Hodar the retarded barbarian actually came with a custom saddle that allows someone to basically stand on his back and attack over his shoulders. For now we're treating him the same way you would treat a mount (He's a Giant by the way). The point of question right now is; is he intelligent? He has an Intelligence score of 10, but he RPs himself as completely retarded, and can only say his own name (He understands simple words, but is unable to say them).

If we mount him, should he continue to control himself, or should the mounter take control?

He should still be in control "mounted" or not. That being said really only a halfling would be able to ride him (unless he's like a Goliath or something and even then...) without it being extremely awkward/impossible. That being said, whomever mounts said Barbarian should be a ranged user and just sling spells/arrows while the "retard" baby shakes enemies.

[Sabeta]

He should still be in control "mounted" or not. That being said really only a halfling would be able to ride him (unless he's like a Goliath or something and even then...) without it being extremely awkward/impossible. That being said, whomever mounts said Barbarian should be a ranged user and just sling spells/arrows while the "retard" baby shakes enemies.

He is a Goliath, and he has Javelin's tied to the saddle for us to throw in need.

[Mr.Moron]

That being said, some of my friends in other groups keep telling me that Monk is pretty much worthless for damage. They'll say things like "Fighter and Rogue both have tons more damage, and can are pretty much unkillable" or "My warlock will soon have 25 AC, and with the Blur Spell they basically need to double crit in order to hit me ever, and I still do more damage than you" I don't care too much about things like optimization, but knowing that others within my own group will soon massively outclass me is kind of disheartening.


It sounds like you and your group are pretty much fundamentally incompatible. They're coming to this game for very different reasons than you. You've basically got two options:

A) Have them or the internet build a winning-at-maximum-numbers type character for you.
B) Just kind of accept that your performance will below theirs and be OK with that.

They're playing to win at having high numbers and you sound like you're just kind of playing to play. These two styles are kind of like oil and water, in my opinion.

[Inevitability]

Are you sure your friends aren't playing 3.5? :smalltongue:


But for monks themselves, they're fine. I have one in my group (wizard, paladin, rogue, monk) and he pretty much is the main damage dealer. He runs into battle, then attacks a few times for heavy damage and finally punches the enemy ten feet up into the ceiling for more damage. One time, during a fight with a Young Red Dragon, he stunned the beasty for a few rounds. The party ate dragon that night.

[Mandragola]

Don't forget that monks can use weapons. A spear or quarterstaff is generally best at low levels. You can use your dex to hit and damage with either.

So you hold the staff/spear in two hands to make use of its versatile feature, meaning your main attacks do D8+3 damage. Then you use your bonus action attack for another D4+3. At level 5 you get to hit stuff twice with your weapon and still have your bonus action attack.

I played a wood elf shadow monk myself up to level 4, before switching to a sorceror for party-balance reasons (we were all dps noobs :smalltongue:). I found I hardly ever used my Ki points for flurry of blows, and mainly used it instead for pass without trace or getting a bonus action dodge. You get enormous versatility as a shadow monk with a ton of cool stuff you can do prior to initiative being rolled, especially with your ability to sneak about the place and spot things. A shadow monk's great dex and wisdom, combined with pass without trace, makes them one of the best scouts in the game - with very little sacrificed in combat.

Of course once you hit level 5 you'll be stunning stuff and everyone will love you.

[Chronos]

Have these friends of yours actually calculated the damage output of a monk? Because I did recently, and found that, at least up through level 5, the monk has damage output equal to or greater than the fighter. Their only real drawbacks relative to the fighter are slightly less AC, lower HP, and the lack of Second Wind, but in return for that, they're better at battlefield control (especially if Open Hand) and scouting (especially if Shadow).

[Sabeta]

One rather annoying thing these other guys do is compare their level 14 characters to our level 4s. I have no clue why they have a superiority complex over players who began two weeks ago, compared to a group that's been at it for months. I'm confident our group could wreck theirs if our levels caught up. (PvP is something that occasionally happens with us. My whole shop is full of nerds, and we've got 3-4 groups running. The more veteran groups occasionally cross paths at a colliseum and they have a PvP night. We're brand new though so we won't be heading there any time soon)

As for the comment about running wild with a Quarterstaff. I used to have one, but it was stolen from me along with most of my other possessions when I got captured by some cultists. I haven't been able to retrieve any of my stuff, but the most valuable thing I owned was that stick +10g. Now that I'm about to hit level 5 I'm not as worried about it anymore.

[Madfellow]

But for monks themselves, they're fine. I have one in my group (wizard, paladin, rogue, monk) and he pretty much is the main damage dealer.

Holy crap! :smalleek:


The more veteran groups occasionally cross paths at a colliseum and they have a PvP night.

That sounds like fun.


As for the comment about running wild with a Quarterstaff. I used to have one, but it was stolen from me along with most of my other possessions when I got captured by some cultists. I haven't been able to retrieve any of my stuff, but the most valuable thing I owned was that stick +10g. Now that I'm about to hit level 5 I'm not as worried about it anymore.

Yeah, that's another great thing about monks. If the fighter loses his gear or the wizard loses his spellbook, they're toast. The monk doesn't worry about anything like that, because the monk doesn't need gear of any kind in order to be effective.

[SharkForce]

eh, wizards aren't really toast if they lose their spellbook any more. it sucks in a huge way, but they only need it to *change* their prepared spells in 5th edition... now, the ability to change spells is, of course, a key and defining feature of wizards that grants them a lot of power. but they can at least function better than a fighter that loses all their weapons and armour.

[Madfellow]

eh, wizards aren't really toast if they lose their spellbook any more. it sucks in a huge way, but they only need it to *change* their prepared spells in 5th edition... now, the ability to change spells is, of course, a key and defining feature of wizards that grants them a lot of power. but they can at least function better than a fighter that loses all their weapons and armour.

I guess that's true. He's still lost a class feature that costs 50gp to replace though.

[Mandragola]

eh, wizards aren't really toast if they lose their spellbook any more. it sucks in a huge way, but they only need it to *change* their prepared spells in 5th edition... now, the ability to change spells is, of course, a key and defining feature of wizards that grants them a lot of power. but they can at least function better than a fighter that loses all their weapons and armour.

That assumes they have some means of providing the material components though. Any bad guy with a couple of brain cells will take the wizard's wand away, and probably break it over his knee for good measure.

[Sabeta]

I read something pretty amusing in another thread that I can't wait to try out.

Stun someone, and then take their weapon away. Perhaps use it against them (I know I'd lose bonuses, and perhaps even proficiency, but it seems hilarious) or simply throw it away. Possibly even give it to a character in the party who wants such a weapon. A lot of the enemies we've been fighting have had some interesting weapons in hand, such as a Halberd that can absorb life and grant temp hp.

[Madfellow]

I read something pretty amusing in another thread that I can't wait to try out.

Stun someone, and then take their weapon away. Perhaps use it against them (I know I'd lose bonuses, and perhaps even proficiency, but it seems hilarious) or simply throw it away. Possibly even give it to a character in the party who wants such a weapon. A lot of the enemies we've been fighting have had some interesting weapons in hand, such as a Halberd that can absorb life and grant temp hp.

I love it!

[Chronos]

In which case she can just use Minor Conjuration to make a new wand. For that matter, you might even be able to use it to recreate your spellbook: It's certainly an item you've seen before, and unless you're pretty high level, you only need it for less than an hour.

[Mandragola]

I read something pretty amusing in another thread that I can't wait to try out.

Stun someone, and then take their weapon away. Perhaps use it against them (I know I'd lose bonuses, and perhaps even proficiency, but it seems hilarious) or simply throw it away. Possibly even give it to a character in the party who wants such a weapon. A lot of the enemies we've been fighting have had some interesting weapons in hand, such as a Halberd that can absorb life and grant temp hp.

You can do all kinds of horrible things to enemies you've stunned. Take their weapons away, knock them over, push them off stuff and so on. I can picture a shadow monk shadow stepping up onto a castle's battlements, stunning a guard and then pushing him off the wall, for example. Crunch.

[Sabeta]

I love it!

Stunned enemies are "Incapacitated" and "Incapacitated" enemies auto-fail Strength or Dex saving throws. This should work out quite nicely since most of our enemies for the time being will be humanoids.

I already have a penchant for knocking people off stuff. At level 1 I was throwing kobolds off a cliff to deal with the fact that they had 7 HP and would have otherwise taken two turns to KO. This was when I had my Quarterstaff still and my DM allowed me to "Sweep the feet" at the cost of a slightly harder attack roll.

[Inevitability]

Holy crap! :smalleek:

:smallconfused: Hm?

[JNAProductions]

Monk is the best damage dealer in the party, which includes a Plaidadan and a Rogue.

[Ralanr]

I applaud your creativity!

I have to ask, can you use your shadow powers to punch through shadows and hit a guy in shadows?

[Inevitability]

Monk is the best damage dealer in the party, which includes a Plaidadan and a Rogue.

To be fair, that is mostly because the paladin is a very new player who barely ever smites and only has 16 strength by level 9, and the rogue lacks a magic weapon. Oh, and the monk managed to convince me that he can totally punch people into the ceiling with his push-10-feet power.

[Sabeta]

I found an interesting point on the subject from Mike Mearl.

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/11/03/monk-moves-between-flurry/

Seems moving around the battlefield and punching things is totally legit.

[Ralanr]

i found an interesting point on the subject from mike mearl.

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/11/03/monk-moves-between-flurry/

seems moving around the battlefield and punching things is totally legit.

punch all the things!!!

[JAL_1138]

Mobility, many attacks, good versatility, pretty good at surviving damage...5e is widely (and correctly, despite my love of 2e I've got to admit the 2e monk was awful without the Complete Ninja's Handbook) considered to be "the edition that finally got Monks right." Ignore the lvl-14 group.

[Totema]

Could we go back to the warlock with AC 25? Because even with mage armor I'm completely not getting how they got even close to that much AC, unless they're misreading the rules. :smallconfused:

[Giant2005]

Could we go back to the warlock with AC 25? Because even with mage armor I'm completely not getting how they got even close to that much AC, unless they're misreading the rules. :smallconfused:

He could do it if he got shield proficiency somehow and used a +3 shield, and either a +3 studded leather with +5 dexmod or +3 Half Plate with +2 Dex mod (The latter seems relatively likely as he would have got the Medium Armor and Shield proficiencies with a single feat).

[Totema]

He could do it if he got shield proficiency somehow and used a +3 shield, and either a +3 studded leather with +5 dexmod or +3 Half Plate with +2 Dex mod (The latter seems relatively likely as he would have got the Medium Armor and Shield proficiencies with a single feat). Jeez, that's a monty haul if I've ever heard of one.

[SharkForce]

....

pet peeve: not monty haul. monty hall. or, more accurately, Monty Hall, because it is a proper noun (but as you can probably tell, i'm not too picky about capital letters most of the time).

the stage name of the original host for a game show called "let's make a deal", wherein contestants are routinely given the chance to win fabulous prizes (but also a chance to get completely worthless crud if they pick the wrong door).

[Totema]

....

pet peeve: not monty haul. monty hall. or, more accurately, Monty Hall, because it is a proper noun (but as you can probably tell, i'm not too picky about capital letters most of the time).

the stage name of the original host for a game show called "let's make a deal", wherein contestants are routinely given the chance to win fabulous prizes (but also a chance to get completely worthless crud if they pick the wrong door).

Sorry dude, but the slang term is spelled with a U, at least according to Urban Dictionary (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=monty+haul). :smalltongue: But that's besides the point.

[Giant2005]

Sorry dude, but the slang term is spelled with a U, at least according to Urban Dictionary (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=monty+haul). :smalltongue: But that's besides the point.

Yeah I am pretty sure it is supposed to be a pun, combining the renown of "Monty Hall" with the connotations of the word "haul",

[SharkForce]

Sorry dude, but the slang term is spelled with a U, at least according to Urban Dictionary (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=monty+haul). :smalltongue: But that's besides the point.

the urban dictionary is written by random people and voted on by random people. in this particular case, it is extremely obvious that they didn't do a very good job of researching, because they have no idea that Monty Hall was never the host for the price is right (that would be Bob Barker, not like he's famous or anything though, right?)

[Shining Wrath]

You are absolutely doing it right, and things besides damage matter.

[JAL_1138]

Yeah I am pretty sure it is supposed to be a pun, combining the renown of "Monty Hall" with the connotations of the word "haul",

You are correct. It's a pune, or play on words, on Monty Hall's name.

[huttj509]

the urban dictionary is written by random people and voted on by random people. in this particular case, it is extremely obvious that they didn't do a very good job of researching, because they have no idea that Monty Hall was never the host for the price is right (that would be Bob Barker, not like he's famous or anything though, right?)

A Bob Barker campaign involves a lot of neutered pets.

[JAL_1138]

A Bob Barker campaign involves a lot of neutered pets.

Well, now we know how we got the rules for the beastmaster ranger's animal companion. *ba dum tssh*