What skill(s) would give proficency on math checks?

[Feddlefew]

Last week, one of my friends was asking me questions about 5e, specifically about the skill system, and there was one question I haven't been able to come up with an answer for.

What skill or skills would you use for math?

Arcana is the closest one I can think of, since that seems to be the equivalent of "physics" as they apply to D&D. However, there isn't a skill for more mundane, but still higher level, math. There's a feat (Linguist) which gives you the ability to use cryptography, but it doesn't explicitly state that it's math-based or gives bonuses to that. I hesitate to just use an int check, since advanced math requires years of study to learn and doesn't feel like something that's part of generic D&D setting's general education program.

So I'm thinking of adding an Engineering skill to my games to cover mundane but useful physical stuff, like architecture, trap design, and the general aiming/building of siege equipment. I, personally, think there's a gap in the Int skills, especially since two races are known for their building projects and inventions.

Thoughts?

[diplomancer]

I feel tool and language proficiencies are better for that, as they can be learned with downtime. I feel math is closer to a language then to a skill anyway, so you can susbstitute Math for a Language. And add an abacus tool proficiency to the current list.

[Slipperychicken]

What sort of mathematical operations does our troupe of fantasy heroes need to make skill checks for? The most complicated I've seen done in-character is dividing loot.

[Gnaeus]

What sort of mathematical operations does our troupe of fantasy heroes need to make skill checks for? The most complicated I've seen done in-character is dividing loot.

Lucky! I have a DM whose idea of puzzle challenges is "solve this math problem". Profession mathematician was the best skill on my character sheet.

[Demonic Spoon]

There are an infinite number of possible disciplines that could be skills. At some point the designers had to decide which ones were going to be applicable in a normal game and which ones would just be wasted proficiency.

If you expect math/engineering to show up fairly often in your game, then adding a new 'mathematics' intelligence skill wouldn't be out of place at all.

If you don't expect it to show up fairly often, but a player is playing a mathematician, then you could just consider him proficient math-related checks whenever they do come up. I'm a fan of occasionally considering a character 'proficient' in an otherwise-untrained check if there's a significant narrative reason for it. Or, you could make it the background feature.

Though, keep in mind that balance wise, the above only really works if there is rarely a need for math-related checks. If it starts coming up frequently, I'd make it a full skill proficiency.

[Chronos]

Out of what we have in the PHB, the closest is probably Investigation.

[Naanomi]

Language: Modron

[Feddlefew]

What sort of mathematical operations does our troupe of fantasy heroes need to make skill checks for? The most complicated I've seen done in-character is dividing loot.

IRL? I game with STEM students, so it comes up more often than you'd think. We can already cover the Bio, physics, geology and ecology stuff with existing skills, and the engineers find it unfair that it doesn't require training to do things related to their field, but it does for things related to our fields.

In game? My player's Dwarves and Gnomes, especially the former. I think it's come up an average of 5-6 times a campaign, like that one time the diverted part of a river through an enemy encampment. I used an engineering or architecture skill check to see if they could come up with a good plan, and then if they did it gave them a circumstance bonus on the actual execution as if they were aiding another. Just two rolls and we avoided going into detail about how they did it.

[Beleriphon]

Lucky! I have a DM whose idea of puzzle challenges is "solve this math problem". Profession mathematician was the best skill on my character sheet.

My response to that is usually adding enough sticks of dynamite together to solve the "problem". But I'm a jerk like that sometimes. :smallbiggrin:

[Slipperychicken]

IRL? I game with STEM students, so it comes up more often than you'd think. We can already cover the Bio, physics, geology and ecology stuff with existing skills, and the engineers find it unfair that it doesn't require training to do things related to their field, but it does for things related to our fields

When I first read the skill section, I was pretty surprised that engineering wasn't listed there. I'd imagine it would currently be covered by tinker tool or mason tool proficiency, but I think it would be fine to houserule an "architecture and engineering" skill, much like the one which existed in 3.x.

Also, I'd be inclined to say the PCs simply couldn't divert a river or do something similarly advanced unless they had a relevant proficiency.

[Gnaeus]

My response to that is usually adding enough sticks of dynamite together to solve the "problem". But I'm a jerk like that sometimes. :smallbiggrin:

It was never an option. It was always something where we had to enter the correct prime numbers to activate the planar gate to advance the plot. There was one time where I advocated fighting the elder wyrm and certain death as a superior choice to solving another math puzzle.

[Magic Myrmidon]

I just saw your sig for the first time, Gnaeus. I really like it. Bookmarked it to show the kind of optimization that I actually do, rather than the optimization that I tend to talk about (TO). Pretty useful.

[Gnaeus]

Thank you!

[Joe the Rat]

IRL? I game with STEM students, so it comes up more often than you'd think. We can already cover the Bio, physics, geology and ecology stuff with existing skills, and the engineers find it unfair that it doesn't require training to do things related to their field, but it does for things related to our fields.

In game? My player's Dwarves and Gnomes, especially the former. I think it's come up an average of 5-6 times a campaign, like that one time the diverted part of a river through an enemy encampment. I used an engineering or architecture skill check to see if they could come up with a good plan, and then if they did it gave them a circumstance bonus on the actual execution as if they were aiding another. Just two rolls and we avoided going into detail about how they did it.

It's the old school tradeoff. You trade a lack of skill coverage in-game to cover the better job opportunities provided in real life. :smallcool:

Seriously, though, an A&E would not be amiss. I think the logic of the 5e design is that as you do not have a comprehensive education system in place, you'd be more focused on the things you specifically are trained to build, ergo tool proficiencies. Of course, this basically says anyone who can cut stone knows how to properly design a cathedral or colosseum, or that a carpenter can build catapults and frame a glider. The switch here is in whether you have the broader knowledge, and perhaps creativity to come up with these - in other words Intelligence. A bog standard village woodworker can probably knock out a house plan (though maybe not a proper draft), but an exceptionally sharp and/or well educated woodworker (higher Int) has the wherewithal to design new things.

For your pair of rock-bangers, Intelligence (mason's tools - think aqueduct) or Int (mining tools) would be my go-to for the river diversion, though I would also accept Int (Nature) to read the geography and figure out how it would normally route and the best place to dam and channel. Depending on the terrain, stonecunning might come into play.

[Mr.Moron]

I'd probably just call it an int roll and grant proficiency if their character had some kind formal education that would include math in their back story, 1/2 proficiency if they had a limited education or were just really clever.

This is a narrow enough edge case I'm not sure I'd go hunting for formal rules. Like I'm fine with just giving out knowledge of Algebra or whatever on a narrative basis without worrying about them having "Paid" for it somewhere.

[Shining Wrath]

I've considered starting a thread to list all the skills that aren't on the character sheet, but someone would likely have in a medieval fantasy world.


Math
Ability to command an army (very different than the Fighter archetype); generals
Ability to run a business or be a seneschal; management
Choir director / orchestra conductor (not a Bard skill)



I'm sure there's dozens more. Skills mundane people need to make the world happen, but not things PCs would normally do.

[Slipperychicken]

Ability to command an army (very different than the Fighter archetype); generals
Ability to run a business or be a seneschal; management
Choir director / orchestra conductor (not a Bard skill)


I think you could just roll those three up into a "management" or "leadership" skill.

[Shining Wrath]

I think you could just roll those three up into a "management" or "leadership" skill.

There's something to that, but I think that "seeing" the battlefield and moving troops where they need to be is a different skill set than being able to persuade the sopranos to sing harmony behind the altos for just one song. It's like lumping all caster classes together into "Wizard".

[Slipperychicken]

There's something to that, but I think that "seeing" the battlefield and moving troops where they need to be is a different skill set than being able to persuade the sopranos to sing harmony behind the altos for just one song. It's like lumping all caster classes together into "Wizard".

What I've heard is that in many fields, leadership amounts to recognizing/finding other people who have skills, putting them where they need to be, convincing them to work, managing disputes, and giving workers the right amount of resources and authority. A number of high-level professional leaders (such as CEOs, supply-chain managers) find that their work is almost identical once one gets high enough in an organization, and many successful businessmen have reported entering their respective industries with absolutely no idea how it worked.

[eastmabl]

Instead of making a new skill (which makes every other character less effective through the creation of the skill), why not ask your player how he might have proficiency in mathematics? Is he good at math because of his background (acolyte mathematician, sailor who used a sextant)? Is there another proficiency which might overlap that lets him know the knowledge (arcana, history, nature)? Is there something in the story line that he can point to that would give him this knowledge ("we did this before!").

Otherwise, I think that Investigation is a good proxy for a new skill.

[Shining Wrath]

What I've heard is that in many fields, leadership amounts to recognizing/finding other people who have skills, putting them where they need to be, convincing them to work, managing disputes, and giving workers the right amount of resources and authority. A number of high-level professional leaders (such as CEOs, supply-chain managers) find that their work is almost identical once one gets high enough in an organization, and many successful businessmen have reported entering their respective industries with absolutely no idea how it worked.

If all there was to being a general was selecting good subordinates that would be true. In addition to being a leader, a general must know tactics and perhaps strategy.

Compare Lee to McClellan.