Ethics of magic

[Mr.Kraken]

Based on my "Mage-Killer vs. Wizard" thread, I'd like to discuss about the social implications that magic should invoke. Mostly aimed at DM, this thread focuses on how society and the government should see magic in a fantasy world. For example:

* How does society see Enchantment magic? Should it be legal? Invading someone's mental privacy isn't something to be taken lightly. The same could be said about Transmutation, except we're talking about bodily integrity here.
* In a society with one its major gods being Pelor, how should necromancy be treated? And in any other society?
* Evocation magic, if used lightly, can be extremely destructive to the community. What should the government do when a tavern burns down due to a Fireball or a wizard makes it bone-chilling cold simply because he doesn't like it hot?

How do you, DMs, deal with these and other issues? Do you think a "Magic Police" should exist in every campaign? Do you have any experience you'd like to share regarding the matter?

[KillingAScarab]

The same could be said about Transmutation, except we're talking about bodily integrity here.*Insert obligatory Monty Python and the Holy Grail quote here*


* In a society with one its major gods being Pelor, how should necromancy be treated? And in any other society?This touches more upon how religion works when it interacts with government, especially in a world where the afterlife is as certain as skill points. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html) It could be that sometimes it's just rude (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0845.html).


How do you, DMs, deal with these and other issues? Do you think a "Magic Police" should exist in every campaign? Do you have any experience you'd like to share regarding the matter?Even within a singular campaign there can be multiple approaches. Some cities in Forgotten Realms might only allow licensed spellcasters, while Thay is an entire country which is a magocracy.

[GreatDane]

I think it's important to note that unless the town is run by wizards (or some other book-learning spellcaster), few would classify spells by school.

That said, since most folks in town will be level 3 or lower, I think most laws will be directed at tier 0-2 spells. So the local constables won't be concerned too much with things like fireball and hold person except for special cases; their laws will pertain to spells like charm person (illegal, but awfully hard to detect) and invisibility (which might be outlawed entirely for its usefulness to thieves).

Writing as I think, it's actually pretty likely that individual spells aren't banned (again, unless it's that town run by bookworms), just the use of magic in general for illegal activities. There might be places where it's completely legal to cast, say, obscuring mist, as long as it's not on the lighthouse with the intent of wrecking ships.

That's the law, however. For a lot of people, common view is more important. Using prestidigitation to turn your skin blue might not be illegal, but people might think you're a demon in disguise, or marked with a curse. So I guess it's important to figure out how much the law and common opinion differ on magic.

EDIT:

In my current campaign, magic is common enough that its intended use is more important that the fact that it was used. Fireballing the enemy army? A-OK! Fireballing allied lines? An excellent way to get executed or thrown in prison until further notice, depending on whose side you're on.

As far as common opinion vs. law, necromancy (not the school, but raising or animating the dead) is a taboo set by the goddess of the realm. WhIle it is certainly illegal in most places, people will set upon you as a heretic everywhere if you walk around with a bunch of zombies shuffling behind you.

[Crake]

Based on my "Mage-Killer vs. Wizard" thread, I'd like to discuss about the social implications that magic should invoke. Mostly aimed at DM, this thread focuses on how society and the government should see magic in a fantasy world. For example:

* How does society see Enchantment magic? Should it be legal? Invading someone's mental privacy isn't something to be taken lightly. The same could be said about Transmutation, except we're talking about bodily integrity here.
* In a society with one its major gods being Pelor, how should necromancy be treated? And in any other society?
* Evocation magic, if used lightly, can be extremely destructive to the community. What should the government do when a tavern burns down due to a Fireball or a wizard makes it bone-chilling cold simply because he doesn't like it hot?

How do you, DMs, deal with these and other issues? Do you think a "Magic Police" should exist in every campaign? Do you have any experience you'd like to share regarding the matter?

In my homebrew setting, how all this is handled depends entirely on the era we're talking about. There's the old school era, in which it's a very typical dnd setting, where magic is the priviledge of well educated people and kept out of the hands of the poor or untalented. Magic itself is very unpoliced when used on a small scale, and there are no laws governing it except in high-magic city states who can afford to do so. In this era, it would not be uncommon for a magic user to have enchanted an entire town simply to make them easier to deal with, or to make them operate upon his or her wishes, though this would be limited to small areas. Attracting too much attention by using magic in this manner would result in your operation being stopped by the eventual benevolent magic user who is against magic being used in such ways.

The next age in the timeline however is much more akin to the tippyverse, shortly after the gods died and religion stopped being a counterbalance for magic users. The major cities were built using magic, and almost everyone had some level of magical training. In addition, the ability to monitor and punish magic use was within the capability of most governments, and planar trading and communication was entirely common place. It was not uncommon for a balor and a solar to be having a coffee in the same coffee shop, and as such, planar binding was considered to be a form of kidnapping (exceptions for elementals, as they were considered acceptable forces to harness, resulting in the formation of PETE, the society for the Protection and Ethical Treatment of Elementals). Not only enchantments, but any spell cast on an unwilling subject were banned, with the exception of those who had the authority to do so, such as police on a fugitive.

Shortly after, the world declined into an E6 state, where magic was completely unpoliced, but was also punishable by death, so it was a risky business.

After these dark ages, magic made a comeback, but was still seen as questionable to many people, as such, it became a very elitist practise, with the secret magical societies being self policed, though not in the way you would expect. Any magic was acceptable, as long as it was not against another magic user (unless there was a pre-organised conflict, in which case, all bets were off) as long as magic was not brought to the attention of the public, so really, anything goes, no bans on things like enchantment.

Really, i think it comes down to your setting, and what level of magic is available to the people. If the government has the capability to regulate the use of magic, it should, but if magic is a rare thing that not many people get the chance to harness, then i'd imagine it really comes down to the DM's decision how, or if at all, it is regulated.

I think necromancy is an interesting one, but it comes down to the perception on necromancy, and how it is ruled to work. In my setting necromancy itself is not evil, although it is very frowned upon due to it's perception as, not so much evil, but distasteful. Corpses and all. Depending on the time in my setting, necromancy has gone from commonplace to perform menial tasks, to a perversion of nature that must be punished by death and destruction.

There are gods who frown upon and hate necromancy, but that doesn't make it illegal in my game.

Bit of a ramble, if you have any questions you'd like to ask to clarify, shoot.

[atemu1234]

Also, keep in mind that wizards living in civilization will be more busy selling spells for quick cash than wrecking random acts of destruction. It's unlikely that a good wizard who wants to live in a city will want to burn down an inn. As to charm, odds are it's illegal. Also, necromancers are unlikely to live in cities, as people notice bodies disappearing.

[Mr.Kraken]

If the DM deems that a body for magic use policing is necessary, how do you think it should act? What alignment should the organization be geared towards? Lawful neutral? I think I'll develop a PrC for these "magic policemen", something based on Detect and Dispel magic. Is there anything similar? If not, any ideas would be welcome.

[atemu1234]

If the DM deems that a body for magic use policing is necessary, how do you think it should act? What alignment should the organization be geared towards? Lawful neutral? I think I'll develop a PrC for these "magic policemen", something based on Detect and Dispel magic. Is there anything similar? If not, any ideas would be welcome.

Also give bonuses to Gather Information and Sense Motive.

[Crake]

Also, necromancers are unlikely to live in cities, as people notice bodies disappearing.

What about the bodies of criminals that have been sentanced to X many years as undead as reparation to society for their actions? There's nothing stopping necromancers from gathering bodies in a legal way, and using them in a way that benefits society. And what about necromancers who use animal bodies, or the bodies of enemy soldiers? Not all necromancers need to be evil grave robbers

[Sam K]

I think that the local mages would try to police their own, if someone is getting too out of line. Generally speaking, this is the only thing that works; you can't really investigate magic without magic, and the only thing that really works against magic is MORE magic. The local mages would have an interest in making sure that magic doesn't get too bad of a rep, because doing so makes it hard doing business and get by doing your research (until you're high enough level, anyway). Their alignment and methods would reflect the local magic community: a chaotic good area may have it on a honor system (don't abuse magic, or we will kick you out) while a lawful evil area may require registration and licenses.

Ofcourse, most likely, the mages guild (or equivilent) would only care if the victim was someone important enough. Evil mages could likely use things like illusions and enchantment to take advantage of people with little legal protection, just like such people are more likely to be the victims of thieves. The court wizard isn't going to get up and investigate because some bar wench claims she was "charmed" by a mysterious stranger.

[Flickerdart]

Enchantment isn't special when it comes to using it against people - using anything against a person, whether a suggestion or a fireball or a pointy bit of metal is a crime. There's already a "magic police." It's called the police.

[Karl Aegis]

You make a bunch of stupid laws and chase out all the magic users from your society. Congratulations, you just got enslaved or killed by all the crap out there that needs magic to be killed. Societies that hate magic die out while societies that have magic grow. Freaking out over someone casting Daylight or Heroism doesn't really help anyone.

[Tvtyrant]

Given the option any rational society makes mythals and mythallars that block abusive uses of magic.

[TrollCapAmerica]

Theres a demographic problem here not being addressed. High level mages are generally needed to stop generally any kind of Mage from running amuk.This is the kind of thing PCs get hired for and sent to take out the crazed Wizzo the dangerously irresponsible. Not a lot of really good wizard are going to lend themselves to policing magic.Sure you could get wealthy enough patrons to finance some countermeasures keep the local Bank manager from getting charmed or keep the King from getting replaced with a Simulacrum but your not like to have an on call anti-Wizard squad

The same problem though creates its own solution.Wizards dont tend to run around randomly making regular folks lives horrible for the fun of it.The worst that could happen is an evil enough spellcaster gets regular folk wrapped up in a larger evil plot which will eventually lead to some group of hired Murderhobos to go up against him

[Yahzi]

Enchantment isn't special when it comes to using it against people - using anything against a person, whether a suggestion or a fireball or a pointy bit of metal is a crime. There's already a "magic police." It's called the police.
Exactly. Any kind of physical effect is already covered by the law - nobody cares if you used a fireball or a torch to burn down an inn, it's still arson.

But Enchantments and Divination don't have as ready an analog. Current insider trading laws are best described by the standard use of the word "arcane" (haha). Using divination to cheat at cards, or predict commodity prices, etc. would probably be similarly complex. In my world I simplify it: lawful governments restrict divination to government use only (because if everybody uses divination and then changes their actions to suit, only the last divination will be accurate). Chaotic ones, everybody is own their own.

Charm is a kind of fraud. Keep in mind that medieval societies had slightly different ideas about human agency than we do; in many of them, simply using Diplomacy to talk someone into doing something may be the legal equivalent of casting a Charm on them. Control Person, however, is clearly worse than simple fraud, and should probably be akin to kidnapping.

[KillingAScarab]

Enchantment isn't special when it comes to using it against people - using anything against a person, whether a suggestion or a fireball or a pointy bit of metal is a crime. There's already a "magic police." It's called the police.


Exactly. Any kind of physical effect is already covered by the law - nobody cares if you used a fireball or a torch to burn down an inn, it's still arson.Ignorance, however, leads people to believe otherwise. To find examples of this effect in the real world, just consider the idea that computers require you to add "cyber-" to every word (https://twitter.com/cybereveryword) and write the same law a second time, but worse. Because, to many people, computers are magic and make everything a different case. :smallfrown:

[Necroticplague]

Well, you can't completely get rid of dangerous magic; society needs those to defend against some things that need magic to take down. Someone's got to know Magic Missile in case and wraiths, ghost, or shadows come knocking and all your weapons can't do jack. As for their spot in the world, it seems like the appropriate place for a mage is at the top. After all, the law only extends as far as one's ability to enforce it, and it's quite possible for a potent magic user to put themselves far beyond any reasonable ability to enforce any law (up to, and including, other spellcasters and gods, since defensive spells tend to be more absolute than offensive ones).

[Darth Ultron]

The problem is the question is far too broad. And the D&D rules, being rules made for a adventure combat game, don't work at all for such things as a simulated reality.

Even the ''default'' generic D&D world ''suggested'' in the core rules is no help. Even if one goes by the couple pages of rules spellcaster are not exactly rare, and that does not even count the part where the DM can just make up anything and put anything they want into the world.

And, by the rules, anyone can be an expert on magic. Just a couple ranks of knowledge arcana and a character will know all the common and basic things to be known. It's worse that this knowledge represents some type of schooling, so there must be some sort of education infrastructure that is everywhere.

And all the default generic rules only really cover the nitty gritty helpless humans and human like races. They don't work for other races like elves, outsiders or dragons at all.




* How does society see Enchantment magic? Should it be legal? Invading someone's mental privacy isn't something to be taken lightly. The same could be said about Transmutation, except we're talking about bodily integrity here.

Well, any society will have at least a couple people with a couple ranks in knowledge arcana and spellcraft. So, by the rules, any society will know everything there is to know about magic. All a society needs is a couple of smart (Int 10+) aristocrats or experts to take a couple ranks in knowledge arcana and spellcraft and they know everything about magic.

So, charm and compulsion type enchantment spells would be outright illegal. As would mind reading and scrying. For things like transmutation, the general do no harm laws would apply.



* In a society with one its major gods being Pelor, how should necromancy be treated? And in any other society?


By default ''necromancy is evil'', and most laws are just blind at the point. Though, as there would be plenty of experts on magic making the laws, it does not need to be that way. So only ''black necromancy'' is illegal. Otherwise it would depend how much influence the religion has on the law.



* Evocation magic, if used lightly, can be extremely destructive to the community. What should the government do when a tavern burns down due to a Fireball or a wizard makes it bone-chilling cold simply because he doesn't like it hot?

Again, this can be covered by a ''no hostile magic'' law....that really is no different then basic laws. A person can't burn down a tavern, either by mundane ways or magic....it does not matter.



How do you, DMs, deal with these and other issues? Do you think a "Magic Police" should exist in every campaign? Do you have any experience you'd like to share regarding the matter?

I play a ''smart'' game, the NPC's know everything about magic. At least some do, and a lot of them are in power. So basic magic knowledge is known to most.

[jiriku]

* How does society see Enchantment magic? Should it be legal? Invading someone's mental privacy isn't something to be taken lightly. The same could be said about Transmutation, except we're talking about bodily integrity here.
* In a society with one its major gods being Pelor, how should necromancy be treated? And in any other society?
* Evocation magic, if used lightly, can be extremely destructive to the community. What should the government do when a tavern burns down due to a Fireball or a wizard makes it bone-chilling cold simply because he doesn't like it hot?
* How do you, DMs, deal with these and other issues? Do you think a "Magic Police" should exist in every campaign? Do you have any experience you'd like to share regarding the matter?

It's important to remember that the fundamental unit of government power is coercion, backed by force. Governments have power because if you defy them, they have the option of having someone kill you thoroughly enough that you will stay dead. A powerful, autocratic nation with a strong central government will have special "strike teams" able to deal with such things. Weaker nations will have a king's champion or a church's champion. Everywhere else, anyone who is mass-charming or raising the armies of the dead pretty much gets to write their own laws, because they can murder you in the face if you complain about it. A rogue spellcaster is not like a bank robber. He is more like a team of elite commandos supported by heavy armor and tactical combat aircraft. The local constable of West Podunk is not equipped to handle him.

If you stick by the DMG town-building rules (pp.137-139), most towns and all rural areas will have 0-2 people in them who can dispel a charm or destroy a zombie with a turn undead check. If you are one of these people and you want to put an enchanter or necromancer in his place, it's quite possible that you'll become his next mind-slave or brain-eating minion. Taking him on is very risky for you. If you are just a regular warrior in the town guard, there is nothing you can do. You are less than shark bait to someone who has this kind of magic. If you get in his way, your best chance for survival lies in the fact that he probably does not even get xp for killing you.

When spellcasters run amok in semi-lawless areas, you get one of two things a) survivors running to all the nearest adventuring parties and begging them to take on the "evil" wizard over the hill, or b) streams of refugees packing their bags and fleeing to safer areas.

[DMVerdandi]

Well... If what we are talking about is the regulation of magic, I think that a well thought out regime would behave much differently that what I am feeling so far.

I think the first problem is Society VS Magic. Depending on the setting as it was said, that is going to change. Personally, in a high magic world, magic is going to integrated into society. All that witch hunt stuff goes right out the window, especially when you have book magic. Usually you can keep a sort of distance between common society and magic with a setting that has inborn magic only.

In DND you have in contrast to the sorcerer(and some might argue, bard) ,

The Wizard [Take some classes at the community college]
The Druid [Take some classes at the agricultural college]
The Cleric [Take some classes at the religious centre]

None of them anything to do with anything your are born with, and are open to all. And that is only if you take the standard fluff of the sorcerer. It can just as easily be fluffed as unrefined magic being done without the theory in mind. Essentially "hold my beer" the class. All winging it. It could have nothing to do with birthright and simply be the method of casting spells without a theorem behind it. Like the difference between walking and explaining walking in scientific notation.

So, with all this magic opportunity, a LOGICAL society would quickly become 90-100% magical. Magical guilds would be similar to corporations, each selling a brand of whatever magic is happening. Magic items would be as common as AA batteries (the spell trigger ones at least), and everyone in the government bureaucracy would be a mage.

Magic education would be as common as public school, if not public school. Magic after all has the ability to confer information that regular school cannot. Furthermore, the spells taught to children can be very easily monitored/moderated. Primary school would be about the regular things, and as soon as secondary school hit, an aptitude test would be given, and the children would be sorted into whatever field of magic suited them best.
With retraining rules, that could change if they felt it was the wrong decision, but it would delay their growth.


Within the guild colleges, each student could get a Geas at an entry ceremony which binds them to coming to class, giving it their all, and not misusing the magic they have while students. Since alignment can very easily be discerned, Simple barriers against chaos and evil weeds out bad children.

They can get a year of re-education to try and change their alignments before they come back to school.

After graduation, the citizens register themselves, and are decent leveled mages (Personally, I think 10 years of magical research and education SHOULD put you at level 20. Especially when under a Geas. The PHB would like to make you think that starts you off at level 1, but if that is the case, then how come a level 1 fighter, can become a fighter 1/Wizard 1 within a week? )

Level 21 would be like a P.H.D. Again the game would like to make you gain a certain feeling towards it, which will be like "no way would that be like a Doctorate, but think about it... Are you as skilled as someone outside of your field that is a doctor? Probably not. It's pretty skilled, and one can reach that point before their thirties if they work for it.

So, as graduates, they can work for their guilds, becoming educators, tinkers, administrators, security, manufactures, and whatever other sectors the guilds have.
Or they can work independently (Which must also be documented with the regional government), and just do whatever they want. They don't have to work, but have the right and licensure to do so, for selling magic items, doing mercenary work, troubleshooting, or labor.



I would see a city-state like that working like a hybrid of the Jedi Academy, the Factions from Divergent, and Hogwarts.

[deuxhero]

Reading stuff written by Bob Ingersoll, James Daily and Ryan Davidson (and I doubt they are the only 3 to write on the subject) on how laws interact with superpowers (Which are, even when not explicitly "magic" like Zatanna, might as well be) is a good start to writing laws with magic in mind. Most laws won't need non-standard stuff (Betting when you know the outcome in advance is illegal regardless of how you know)

[FocusWolf413]

DMVerdandi, I think level 20 is a little too high. By that, I mean about 14-15 levels too high. It isn't like they are getting xp at the level of adventurers. These students are getting xp at a few points per day maximum. 3/day should put them at around 5th level by the end of college, which is reasonable.

[Tvtyrant]

DMVerdandi, I think level 20 is a little too high. By that, I mean about 14-15 levels too high. It isn't like they are getting xp at the level of adventurers. These students are getting xp at a few points per day maximum. 3/day should put them at around 5th level by the end of college, which is reasonable.

Where logically does casting the same three spells at Orcs make you advance in your magical studies than if you actually studied magic at a university? Also the XP system doesn't apply to NPCs.

[Jay R]

The fact that you used magic should be immaterial.


* How does society see Enchantment magic? Should it be legal? Invading someone's mental privacy isn't something to be taken lightly. The same could be said about Transmutation, except we're talking about bodily integrity here.

Kidnapping and forcing somebody against his will is the same whether you use enchantment or a whip. If slavery exists, then it's treated like slavery; legal against somebody who is your slave, but illegal against anybody else.


* In a society with one its major gods being Pelor, how should necromancy be treated? And in any other society?

Desecrating corpses is desecrating corpses. Whatever the law is, it applies to everyone.


* Evocation magic, if used lightly, can be extremely destructive to the community. What should the government do when a tavern burns down due to a Fireball or a wizard makes it bone-chilling cold simply because he doesn't like it hot?

The tavern owner really doesn't care if you used matches, a firework on the roof, or a Fireball spell. Neither does the law.


How do you, DMs, deal with these and other issues? Do you think a "Magic Police" should exist in every campaign? Do you have any experience you'd like to share regarding the matter?

Most of my campaigns have a mix of feudal societies, isolated towns, and wilderness. The lords of the feudal societies have guards, but more importantly, a wizard doing that sort of thing is a large-scale menace, so it would lead to armies and allied wizards coming after them.

In an isolated village or a wilderness, the people protect themselves as much as they can, but fear creatures they cannot stop.

[Jendekit]

Do you think a "Magic Police" should exist in every campaign?

While they haven't been founded yet, in my main setting at some point in the future when the Dragon War has settled down, an organization will be founded that specializes in hunting down rogue spellcasters akin to the Assassins from Diablo II. As I run Pathfinder this will probably be an updated version of the Occult Slayer prestige class from Complete Warrior in 3.5

[Lorddenorstrus]

I actually have something akin to the magical policemen in the current homebrew world im running. I couldn't come up with an original name so I just called them Templars (Like dragon age). My players have only tried a fight with them once. The magic users swore to never fight them again pretty much. (probably until they're higher level). Being nothing but a stat stick around big melee guys can be quite scary for them I imagine.