Lex Luthor VS Dr Doom

[DiscipleofBob]

Two villains whose paranoid preparation make even Batman say "Guys, tone it down. Seriously." Who would win? The leader of a corporate empire who's spent Superman's entire career being a thorn in his side? Or the leader of the Latverian nation and one of the greatest villains in nearly ANY Marvel hero's rogue gallery.

Rules:
1. Both characters get as much research and preparation time as they could possibly want.
2. Best of all versions of each character. No handicaps from alt versions.
3. Both characters can get as much help as they can procure from their respective universes, whether we're talking minions, hired villains, or tricked/mind-controlled heroes.
3a. To avoid being derailed into "who would win between mind-controlled Superman vs mind-controlled Sentry" or the like, two remotely similar minions cancel each other out. No drawn-out debates on who would win, (unless you REALLY want to talk supervillain pokemon battle, then have fun with it).
4. At least one bonus scenario where its Lex VS Doom without minions, just whatever they can bring to the table.
5. Neither of them are allowed to destroy the world. They both want to conquer it too much.

[comicshorse]

A ruthless, billionaire genius versus a ruthless, billionaire genius who also has a suit of power armour and is an extremely accomplished sorceror.
Gotta give it to Doom

[Traab]

I have to agree, Doom baseline is a mega genius that rules his own nation. Throw in his best versions and he is a sorcerer supreme level mystic as well as a man with an army of robots and experiments, wearing ironman level armor and aside from his ego, he has no built in weaknesses to exploit.

Does Lex even design his companies weaponry? Most versions of him i see (admittedly cartoons and movies) he tends to be the ceo of his company, a businessman without compare, but he isnt the dc world version of tony stark. You couldnt lock him in a cave in the desert and have him build bleeding edge tech out of scrap.

[Zmeoaice]

Lex owns a company. Doom owns a nation. He has a ton more resources.

[GloatingSwine]

I have to agree, Doom baseline is a mega genius that rules his own nation. Throw in his best versions and he is a sorcerer supreme level mystic as well as a man with an army of robots and experiments, wearing ironman level armor and aside from his ego, he has no built in weaknesses to exploit.

Does Lex even design his companies weaponry? Most versions of him i see (admittedly cartoons and movies) he tends to be the ceo of his company, a businessman without compare, but he isnt the dc world version of tony stark. You couldnt lock him in a cave in the desert and have him build bleeding edge tech out of scrap.

Lex frequently does design his own Science! Not all of it, mind, LexCorp is a big company with big dreams, but all the really important Kill Superman projects.


Though if this is the "Best" version of each character then President Luthor orders the nuclear destruction of the terrorist nation of Latveria.

[DiscipleofBob]

Lex Luthor's also in most versions one of the most intelligent people on Earth with several different power suits he personally creates. To quote Batman when discussing with Waller who could have possibly hacked the JLU watchtower's weapons, "Maybe three people in the world can pull that off. Two of them are on the watchtower." The third he was leading to was Luthor.

In the same universe, one glance at Amazo's schematics and he was able to recreate the body on his own without the knowledge of Cadmus or the JLU.

Then he was able to not only augment the powers of each member of the Legion of Doom, but also create personal overrides so that no one could ever betray him. And while he's not a sorcerer, he has built devices to manipulate magic power, even turning one of the Legion's sorceresses into a battery.

Also he was the one to fully comprehend the Anti-Life Equation and use it to stop Darkseid.

So yeah he's more than just a business tycoon.

[Red Fel]

Though if this is the "Best" version of each character then President Luthor orders the nuclear destruction of the terrorist nation of Latveria.

And if this is the "best" version of each character, then Doom could literally unleash Hell. He does, after all, have friends in low places.


Lex Luthor's also in most versions one of the most intelligent people on Earth

*snip*

So yeah he's more than just a business tycoon.

True. And Doom doesn't exactly have a Legion of Doom to boss around. Lex definitely has that in his favor. I think a frightening band of evil supers somewhat overpowers the assembled army of a small nation. In a minion-based fight, Lex clearly has the upper hand.

But let's not forget that Doom is no slouch in the brains department, either. Even accepting Lex as the evil DC counterpart to Marvel's Tony Stark, Doom is the evil counterpart to Reed Richards, generally accepted to be one of the biggest jerkwards brains in the Marvel universe. Doom is someone who has frequently gone lobe-to-lobe against Mr. Fantastic, and has won from time to time. I don't think it unreasonable to say that they're fairly matched on the intellect-and-inventiveness front.

So let's compare several scales. Brain power. Score: Tie. Both Lex and Doom are brilliant minds of the highest calibur. Financial power. Score: Doom. Lex owns a company, and was once POTUS. Doom owns a country, as dictator-for-life. He can literally print his own money to finance his enterprises. Personal power. Score: Doom. Lex's powers are limited to his brains and whatever anti-Kryptonian weapon he has developed. Doom has all that, plus his sorcery. Additionally, if Lex breaks the law while fighting Doom, he goes to jail. (He'll be out in a few issues.) Doom has that wonderful diplomatic immunity to enjoy, so he can pretty much cut loose. Minion power. Score: Lex. Doom has his personal army and bodyguards, but is for the most part not a team player. Lex, in at least one version, founded and leads the Legion of Doom (and good old Victor should totally sue over the name), an assembly of super-powered villains. Assuming no outside interference, supers > armies.
Overall, it looks to me like Doom leads out by a metal-covered nose.

[The Glyphstone]

And because someone will inevitably bring it up, even if Lex wins it will turn out to have only been a Doombot.:smallsmile:

[comicshorse]

. Minion power. Score: Lex. Doom has his personal army and bodyguards, but is for the most part not a team player. Lex, in at least one version, founded and leads the Legion of Doom (and good old Victor should totally sue over the name), an assembly of super-powered villains. Assuming no outside interference, supers > armies.[/list]
Overall, it looks to me like Doom leads out by a metal-covered nose.

Doom has also a load of robot duplicates with weaponry equivalent to his personal armour in emergencies

[Traab]

And because someone will inevitably bring it up, even if Lex wins it will turn out to have only been a Doombot.:smallsmile:

Has it ever been done where we learn that doom actually died years ago, and all this time it has been doombots carrying on in his absence? Or at least he downloaded his brain into a computer and is an artificial intelligence while pretending to still be flesh and blood under his "armor suit"?

[Red Fel]

And because someone will inevitably bring it up, even if Lex wins it will turn out to have only been a Doombot.:smallsmile:

And no matter who wins, it will all have been part of David Xanatos' plans, all along. Xanatos for life.

[Mato]

Full power sounds pretty interesting. Lex wore the orange lantern ring once allowing him to create anything his genius mind is capable of.

But, Doctor Doom stole the Beyonder's powers. The Beyonder can kill Death and still have enough power left over to conquer Hell before nap time. The list of people more powerful than him is about 20 people long and every single one of them could eat Galatus and Infinity-Gauntlet Thanos for lunch.

[Devonix]

Lex is far better as a leader and organizer. His best plots have him getting other villains to actually get their act together, put their ego's aside and work together.

Lex's most dangerous ability is to get villains to work like heroes.

One on one, just using their organizations, Doom takes this easy

[TheThan]

Doom has his personal army and bodyguards, but is for the most part not a team player. Lex, in at least one version, founded and leads the Legion of Doom (and good old Victor should totally sue over the name), an assembly of super-powered villains. Assuming no outside interference, supers > armies.


Yeah, how did Dr. Doom not end up with a group of super villains (lackeys) called The Legion of Doom? I mean that seems like the obvious choice for a name.

[The Glyphstone]

Yeah, how did Dr. Doom not end up with a group of super villains (lackeys) called The Legion of Doom? I mean that seems like the obvious choice for a name.

Aside from his obsession with Reed Richards, one of the Doom's most persistent character traits is his inability to play nice with other people. He has an army of robot clones in large part because he's too arrogant and imperious to work alongside anyone who's not himself as an equal, and the typical supervillain isn't going to put up with how Doom would treat them for very long.

[Traab]

Aside from his obsession with Reed Richards, one of the Doom's most persistent character traits is his inability to play nice with other people. He has an army of robot clones in large part because he's too arrogant and imperious to work alongside anyone who's not himself as an equal, and the typical supervillain isn't going to put up with how Doom would treat them for very long.

Yeah, he has a lot of nameless grunts and lackeys behind the scenes, but I bet he would spend as much time killing fellow villains for their incompetence and recruiting news ones as he would planning his next attack on reed richards. Heh, now there is an amusing storyline, Dr Doom creates a world with no supervillains other than him through systematic slaughter whenever they fail him.

[Devonix]

Aside from his obsession with Reed Richards, one of the Doom's most persistent character traits is his inability to play nice with other people. He has an army of robot clones in large part because he's too arrogant and imperious to work alongside anyone who's not himself as an equal, and the typical supervillain isn't going to put up with how Doom would treat them for very long.

Wheras Luthor can actually delegate. anyone who can get the Joker to play nice in a group is someone with leadership skills.

[GloatingSwine]

Luthor also ended up in overall command of most of Earth's superheroes in the fight against Imperiex (also when he was President).

Because when you can spin the threat well enough you can make almost anyone work for you...

[comicshorse]

Good points, Doom doesn't do co-operative very well, even in Dark Reign when he was working as part of the Hood's group it was revealed he and Namor were planning to betray the others and divide the planet up between them (Doom the land and Namor the sea). And, of course, Doom had longer term plans to get rid of Namor after that

[HardcoreD&Dgirl]

The problem is luthor is the Villain who can play the hero (doom did pull it off in 2099 by pretending not to be himself)


Luthor is currently a JL member, and in goodish standing. He saved the world multi times. When Doom and Luthor fight Luthor looks like the good guy... that gives him options Doom just doesn't have.



Second is the power base/money thing... Luthor is a big business man who makes more money then some small countries... Doom owns/rules a little 3rd world country... so that is more of a toss up then most people have sais so far.


Normal equipment Luthor is far more variable then doom

Doom always has the armor that may or may not be magi tech or just tech based on the writer... it can take a hit from the hulk, but not well, and can be effected by the likes of spiderman.

Luthor could be in a run of the mill business suit refuseing to get his hands dirty, or in a team luthor power armor that is on par with Iron man in his most basic suit, or in a Kryptonian battle harness that makes him go toe to toe with superman with ease...

if we go best case scenario then Doom is an Adamantine magi tech suit that lets him steal cosmic power, and Luthor
is in a power ring that lets him be a god... neither is a fair representation of what these two are though.

Alies... Luthor takes it. He has been the leader of every villain, teamed with most of the heroes, and currently head lines with the JL... hands down doom can't compete here.


too close to call, and too complex to break down on this thread. If this cross over where to happen I think it would end in a draw...

[Traab]

Its not a third world country. He took it over and modernized it to an absurd level iirc.

[Anteros]

If you're allowing allies then current Luthor has access to the Justice League to back him up. Doom can't stand up to that. However, in a one vs one matchup I think Doom takes it as he has far more personal power.

[lord_khaine]

Well.. the power of Lex's battle suit has been a bit inconsistent.. but at least sometimes then it has been able to trade blows with Superman, and made him work at pulling it appart.

Anyway.. personally i think they are more or less equal in a lot of ways, but personally i believe Lex's ability to play nice with others, and for that matter make crazy sociopaths play nice with each other, to be the trait that will determine the outcome in Lex Luthors favor.

[Benthesquid]

Can someone with more familiarity with Luthor explain to me what his motivations are? Apart from his hatred of Superman, I mean, which isn't terribly relevant here, any more than Doom's issues with Reed. I know that Doom is motivated by a belief that to remake the world in his image would be a substantial improvement, and, not unrelated to this, his enormous, throbbing ego and complete inability to ignore or forgive a slight, real or imagined. There was also, for a long time, his desire to free his mother from Mephisto though this has since been resolved.

[themaque]

Mostly very simular to what you stated, depending on the writer obviously. His ego and admited brilliance makes him feel that he is simply the best man for the job of ruling the world.

I would have to say he woudl probably win. Depending on how long his opponent has goaded him, he has a better handle on his ego. Better than DOOM at the very least. His ability to manipulate others to meet his agendas would let him win out over Doom because it wouldn't be Luthor fighting Doom, it would be the justice league, or the avengers or whatnot.

[Ranxerox]

I would have to say he woudl probably win. Depending on how long his opponent has goaded him, he has a better handle on his ego. Better than DOOM at the very least. His ability to manipulate others to meet his agendas would let him win out over Doom because it wouldn't be Luthor fighting Doom, it would be the justice league, or the avengers or whatnot.

Nope. Doom is very good at using his diplomatic immunity as a shield. There is a tussle, sure, because the JLA vs Dr Doom will sell a lot of comic books. However, by the end of the issue Doom disproves Luthor's frame up attempt and the JLA, realizing that the law is not on there side leaves him in peace. Except now Doom has seen Superman in action and this is decisive.

Taken by how godlike the Man of Steel is and angry at Luthor over the attack, Doom lures Superman back to his Castle Von Doom and manages to trap him and steal his powers. Stealing the powers of gods is one of Dr Dooms favorite schticks and he has done it bunches of times. Of course, eventually Superman escapes Doom's trap and reclaims his own powers. Before this happens, though, Doom defeats Luthor, and once again Luthor has to experience the humiliation of being rescued by Superman.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Erm, I know nothing about this, but I have to ask cause it occurred to me...if Lex Luthor was able to figure out and comprehend the Anti-Life Equation then doesn't that mean this is a lock for Luthor? I thought once someone had that under wraps (and since he used it against Darkseid, it sounds like he does) they had pretty much won if they were willing to use it?

[Traab]

Erm, I know nothing about this, but I have to ask cause it occurred to me...if Lex Luthor was able to figure out and comprehend the Anti-Life Equation then doesn't that mean this is a lock for Luthor? I thought once someone had that under wraps (and since he used it against Darkseid, it sounds like he does) they had pretty much won if they were willing to use it?

Seeing as how lex isnt the ruler over everything, with a throne made from supermans skeleton, i would have to say it was a one time deal that somehow altered reality so he didnt have it anymore, or some such lame excuse for why he no longer has it.

[Cheesegear]

f Lex Luthor was able to figure out and comprehend the Anti-Life Equation then doesn't that mean this is a lock for Luthor?

You mean the one time in the totally non-canon Justice League Unlimited where the only use of the ALE we saw Lex use was to use the Equation to potentially kill himself? Sure, let's go with that. Alternatively, we don't see Lex use the ALE more than once, in one specific instance. So it doesn't count. Just like we're not assuming that Lex has access to the Orange Lantern Corps from when he did that one time and never again.

[Lord Raziere]

With these two masterminds? I'm pretty sure the entirety of both the Marvel and DC Earth superheroes and supervillains would somehow get pulled into the conflict between these two simply because they wouldn't fight each other directly, superheroes would be manipulated into intercepting supervillains, supervillains would be sent to distract certain superheroes, it would be a giant two-worlds spanning game of chess but with more explosions and chaos. there is no way of predicting a winner from this, they both play at such a high level that things would quickly escalate beyond all hope of an orderly fight. these two fighting would pretty much mean an all out war that might end with both of them dead from the heroes finding out that all this is just the two masterminds trying to prove which one is better and try to eliminate them for causing such a big conflict for such a stupid reason.

[Drascin]

Also to keep in mind is the fact that the writers love Doom and look for excuses to have him be right and good even when he's being a right ***hole, and they don't as often actually like Lex. So Doom comes in with a huge writer advantage from moment zero.

[Devonix]

You mean the one time in the totally non-canon Justice League Unlimited where the only use of the ALE we saw Lex use was to use the Equation to potentially kill himself? Sure, let's go with that. Alternatively, we don't see Lex use the ALE more than once, in one specific instance. So it doesn't count. Just like we're not assuming that Lex has access to the Orange Lantern Corps from when he did that one time and never again.

Wait? Non canon That episode was completely in canon with the DCAU Specificly the Timmverse

Now is it in canon with anything else of course not. But you might as well say that The current comics aren't canon because they don't connect with the movies.

[Traab]

I think considering it was a one time macguffin and not a perpetual powerup like say, developing the lex suit, that it shouldnt count. It wasnt written out after a reboot, it wasnt retconned out of existence like peter parkers wedding, it was something he yanked out of the ether, used once to defeat the big bad, then it was gone and never seen nor heard from again.

[Devonix]

I think considering it was a one time macguffin and not a perpetual powerup like say, developing the lex suit, that it shouldnt count. It wasnt written out after a reboot, it wasnt retconned out of existence like peter parkers wedding, it was something he yanked out of the ether, used once to defeat the big bad, then it was gone and never seen nor heard from again.

That might be because the series and universe stopped after that episode. It's not like Lex Luthor came back during Batman Beyond. So we could assume that was the end of him in that continuity

[Raimun]

Doom is one of Marvel's best magicians and he wears magi-tech power armor always. And he has always those uncanny and powerful Doombots. I'd also say he's more intelligent than Luthor. Not overwhelmingly but still. He also runs his own high tech-nation, Latveria, instead of merely a company. He's also a capable fighter and has a will of iron.

Pretty much the only advantage Luthor has over Doom is that he seems like he can keep his ego in check better. And he might be the better businessman, when Doom is only known for his statesmanship. Their leadership qualities seem to be pretty equal.

I don't think other super villains/heroes/whatever would really be a factor. In the end, they would most likely just cancel each other out. Only Richards or Superman could have a meaningful impact but mostly because both Doom and Luthor (respectively) tend lose their bearings when they enter the picture.

If we allow "most powerful" versions? Doom had Beyonder's power and Luthor loses. The end. Heck, even Doom w/Silver Surfer's board would be enough.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Doom is one of Marvel's best magicians and he wears magi-tech power armor always. And he has always those uncanny and powerful Doombots. I'd also say he's more intelligent than Luthor. Not overwhelmingly but still. He also runs his own high tech-nation, Latveria, instead of merely a company. He's also a capable fighter and has a will of iron.

Pretty much the only advantage Luthor has over Doom is that he seems like he can keep his ego in check better. And he might be the better businessman, when Doom is only known for his statesmanship. Their leadership qualities seem to be pretty equal.

I don't think other super villains/heroes/whatever would really be a factor. In the end, they would most likely just cancel each other out. Only Richards or Superman could have a meaningful impact but mostly because both Doom and Luthor (respectively) tend lose their bearings when they enter the picture.

If we allow "most powerful" versions? Doom had Beyonder's power and Luthor loses. The end. Heck, even Doom w/Silver Surfer's board would be enough.

Admittedly I have limited knowledge of comics and none about Doom but I do have some about Luthor. First is that Lexcorp isn't merely 'just' a company, it is large enough and powerful enough that Lex says becoming the POTUS is a step down both in what he can accomplish and the freedom he has to achieve his goals. Plus, that speaks of how well he is able to get people on his side rather than Doom where...well...it sounds like an iron-handed dictatorship. If given a choice, would the people of Latveria willingly follow Doom? As for a will of iron, power armor, and fighting skills, Luthor has all of those too in addition to his intellect.

I don't know the comparison but Luthor is apparently one of the smartest, if not THE smartest individual in DC being a Level 13 intellect. I think Brainiac is a level 12 and he's a massive threat in part because of how intelligent he is.

As for most powerful version...Luthor became one with the living embodiment of the Phantom Zone and achieved control over the space-time continuum. I know, vaguely, of another instance where Luthor attained such power that he made death not a thing anymore. Like nobody died, at all, and Death (capital D) was apparently happy for the time off.

This is all second hand or third hand accounts from brief looking on TvTropes and other cursory internet glances but I'm certain others can collaborate this stuff.

[BRC]

as much as I am in favor of the DOOM love, I think we need to give Luthor some more credit here.

In terms of personal power, Luthor's power-suits are nothing to scoff at. I would say they're certainly more powerful than DOOM's standard armor. The question is, does DOOM's magic overcome the gap.

Well, my DCU knowledge isn't the best, but if we're giving both sides all the prep time and resources they could ask for, then is it reasonable for Lex to get his hands on Nth Metal? If so, he can shut down DOOM's magical defenses.


But, since hiring/Mind-controlling supervillains and heroes is in play, I don't see these two actually fighting each other personally. This will be a war of dupes and minions.

[Flickerdart]

As for most powerful version...Luthor became one with the living embodiment of the Phantom Zone and achieved control over the space-time continuum. I know, vaguely, of another instance where Luthor attained such power that he made death not a thing anymore. Like nobody died, at all, and Death (capital D) was apparently happy for the time off.
Yeah, the "most powerful versions" clause really favors Luthor because Luthor is an enemy of Superman and Superman at his best is a lot more impressive than anything the Fantastic Four can dish out. So Doom doesn't really get to "spike" at high. There's one instance in the Avengers Assemble cartoon where he has the entire Avengers working for him though (through time travel or something) but I don't think he's ever done better as far as the "get all the good guy heavy hitters on your side" game goes.

[Traab]

Honestly, when it comes to intellect, I have to give it to doom for the sheer breadth of knowledge he holds. He is a genius of the arts, both scientific and mystical. They may be equalish on the sciences, but doom knows about way more than just science. He singlehandedly took over a small third world nation and turned it into a modern mecca of prosperity. Yeah he is supreme ruler, dictator for life, etc etc etc. But I honestly never recalled hearing that his people were at all unhappy.

Economically I think luthor has the win. His company makes enough money to buy and sell most nations and can be found almost anywhere. Its the mcdonalds of high end technology franchises. :smallbiggrin: Doom doesnt have any money issues either, unless he is skipping out on paying Luke Cage, so really, at the wealth levels both operate on, the difference is mostly academic. Neither will go bankrupt any time soon. But luthor is richer.

Outside help luthor has the big edge. He has run multiple criminal groups, has connections with every dc heroes rogues gallery, and has even worked with the heroes more than once. Doom has also done this, but way less often, as he generally works alone. After all, how does he prove himself superior to reed richards if he had to bring a dozen super powered goons to help defeat him? On the other hand, Doom builds his own armies. Not just doom bots, but various android creatures as well.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Honestly, when it comes to intellect, I have to give it to doom for the sheer breadth of knowledge he holds. He is a genius of the arts, both scientific and mystical. They may be equalish on the sciences, but doom knows about way more than just science. He singlehandedly took over a small third world nation and turned it into a modern mecca of prosperity. Yeah he is supreme ruler, dictator for life, etc etc etc. But I honestly never recalled hearing that his people were at all unhappy.

Economically I think luthor has the win. His company makes enough money to buy and sell most nations and can be found almost anywhere. Its the mcdonalds of high end technology franchises. :smallbiggrin: Doom doesnt have any money issues either, unless he is skipping out on paying Luke Cage, so really, at the wealth levels both operate on, the difference is mostly academic. Neither will go bankrupt any time soon. But luthor is richer.

Outside help luthor has the big edge. He has run multiple criminal groups, has connections with every dc heroes rogues gallery, and has even worked with the heroes more than once. Doom has also done this, but way less often, as he generally works alone. After all, how does he prove himself superior to reed richards if he had to bring a dozen super powered goons to help defeat him? On the other hand, Doom builds his own armies. Not just doom bots, but various android creatures as well.

When it comes to intellect I think a division would have to be made in that Doom is more knowledgeable (with his knowledge of magic) but Luthor might be smarter in general...wait, is there really a distinction between those?

[Devonix]

When it comes to intellect I think a division would have to be made in that Doom is more knowledgeable (with his knowledge of magic) but Luthor might be smarter in general...wait, is there really a distinction between those?

It'd put it at something similar between Batman and Superman.

Superman has more knowledge
Batman's better at figuring things out.

[Flickerdart]

It'd put it at something similar between Batman and Superman.

Superman has more knowledge
Batman's better at figuring things out.
Batman knows every martial art, (seemingly) every technology, every cryptographic technique, and so forth. Why would Superman have more knowledge?

[Devonix]

Batman knows every martial art, (seemingly) every technology, every cryptographic technique, and so forth. Why would Superman have more knowledge?

Batman's a jack of all trades but only a master of very few. When it comes to things like Scientific knowledge, programming biology things like this Superman has always had him beat

Batman isn't really the best in any of his fields he just knows so many. Batman's strength is that he's very good at finding the connections in things and figuring out how to approach them from so many different angles.

[Benthesquid]

Most powerful is a slippery slope, when, as noted, Doom has stolen the powers of beings including the Watcher, Galactus, and the Beyonder. Also, that one time he reconstructed himself from a single molecule by sheer force of will or somesuch. But that was a dumb story.

I'm going to assume 'classic' Doom, the version that generally gets returned to in the comics and that most of the cartoons launch off of. Master of technology and magic, ruler of Latveria.

For Lex, I'm going to do the same, except that he has two distinct roles- Lex Luthor, head of Lexcorp, and President Luthor.

Another important question is the conditions under which they come into conflict. Going for the general theory of "An omnipotent being tells them to fight," leads us to... well, ask the Beyonder how that worked out for him.

So I'm going to spitball a couple of scenarios.

Annihilation Point:
An Infinite Secret Crisis-War merges the Earths of Marvel and DC. As Doom and President Lex try to lead their nations through this, they come into conflict.

Lex is probably going to have more trouble to deal with- his country will be merging with another one, and he'll have to deal with the results of that, as well as work things out with whoever the president of the Marvel Universe America was at this point (this would've been somewhere between Supervillain!Nixon and Barack Obama edging out Stephen Colbert, and, arbitrarily, I'm going to assume that it would be at the same time that Tony Stark was serving as Secretary of Defense.) On the other hand, in an open conflict, he has far greater resources to call on. All Doom's going to have to deal with is some massive natural backlash from shifting around Europe and the Middle East so much to fit all of both universes extra countries. Likely result- tentative proxy war. Lex Luthor sends Deadpool to kill Doom. Doom sics Bane on Luthor. Eventually, the two join forces with the heroes of both worlds to resolve the Countdown to Korvus. Doom inevitably attempts a last moment backstab to seize UNLIMITED POWER. Luthor very possibly attempts the same. In the end, it's revealed that both have used the opportunity to improve their positions in their respective worlds.

Final verdict- TIE

Hostile Acquisition- We take the other approach to Marvel DC crossovers, and just pretend they've always been the same world. Lexcorp aggressively seeks foreign markets, and, since Doom is blocking them not just in Latveria but in Eastern Europe in general, things turn ugly.

This is a tricky one. Even at his most brazen, Luthor is more restrained in his use of violence by the need to maintain a public profile, whereas Doom can and will resort to force whenever it is the most effective option. On the other hand, as noted by other posters, Lex is a master of "Let's You and Him Fight," and convincing Superman that Doom is a problem that needs dealing with is hardly the hardest sell he's had to make. The gambits pile up high and dense- Superman smashes his way through Castle Doom and heroically overcomes a magical trap, only to discover that he's been fighting a Doombot. Doom shows up in Metropolis and executes Lexcorps' board of directors- only for it to turn out that they were getting to be a pain in Luthor's ass anyways, and oh look, here's a smorgasboard of mercenary killers just waiting to ambush Doom.

Luthor doesn't have time to savor this apparent victory, though, because it turns out that Superman's been infected with a psychic lifeform that's convinced him to murder the hell out of his greatest enemy. Luthor suits up and goes to fight him, while Doom reveals that he's foreseen things coming to this point, and paid off enough key players in Luthor's killteam to turn the tide.

Luthor manages to overcome Superman, and takes a moment to gloat in his victory not only over Doom, but over his nemesis. At this point, it suddenly becomes clear that Superman wasn't infected at all except with a mild strain of magical flu to tip things in Lex's favor- the psychic parasite is in Luthor's head, distorting his perceptions, and the world's just watched him beat their greatest hero unconscious while ranting about things that obviously weren't happening.

Or so Doom expects- in actuality, Lex had taken countermeasures against mind control, and was just playing along- while conveniently preventing any evidence of the fight being recorded, and sweeping the witnesses under the rug. He's also been coordinating Lexcorp's providing weapons to a Latverian revolt. Which connection is quickly exposed by Doom, leading to a major public relations disaster for Lexcorp- and, since it was shown that the money and weapons were being funneled through HYDRA, a SHIELD investigation.

Things go back and forth like this for some time, with Luthor's final desperate move being to go back in time prevent Cynthia Von Doom from making her fateful deal with Mephisto- Doom can't counter this move without consigning his mother back to hell.

Final result: Luthor, by a hair, managing to reset things so that the fight never happened, and we have a very different Victor Von Doom.

Cage Match (Full Combat Loadout): I think this is going to edge to Doom- Luthor dons high tech power armor when he has to go toe-to-toe with Superman and Darkseid. That's Doom's walking-around-clothes. Throw in Doom's mastery of sorcery, his martial arts expertise, and the odd nasty trick like switching bodies with you when you get too close, and he's a hard act to match.

Cage Match- in their Skivvies Doom in a landslide. Naked, alone, powerless, after being flung into another world, Doom killed a lion with his bare hands. Captain America estimates that, without his armor, Doom would be about a match for him. I can't think of a similar showing for Lex.

[Traab]

In their skivvies, keep in mind that lex is consistently shown to be peak human shape and a master of martial arts. He is almost always built like a prize fighter and often shown beating five flavors of hell out of a number of sparring partners he is judo tossing all over the mats. Without his power armor, I am honestly not sure what doom can physically do.

[Benthesquid]

In their skivvies, keep in mind that lex is consistently shown to be peak human shape and a master of martial arts. He is almost always built like a prize fighter and often shown beating five flavors of hell out of a number of sparring partners he is judo tossing all over the mats. Without his power armor, I am honestly not sure what doom can physically do.

Setting aside his various magical, psychic and hypnotic abilities, as being against the spirit of the scenario I posited,

Fight a lion. (http://s388.photobucket.com/user/OneDumbG0/media/Doom%20Stats/DoomAgility05Doom1.jpg.html)

And smack around goons. (http://s388.photobucket.com/user/OneDumbG0/media/Doom%20Stats/DoomSkill02Daredevil38.jpg.html)

And, as noted, by Cap's estimation the first time they met, he'd be a match without his armor for any one of an Avengers lineup which at that time included Quicksilver and Wanda.

[Traab]

Setting aside his various magical, psychic and hypnotic abilities, as being against the spirit of the scenario I posited,

Fight a lion. (http://s388.photobucket.com/user/OneDumbG0/media/Doom%20Stats/DoomAgility05Doom1.jpg.html)

And smack around goons. (http://s388.photobucket.com/user/OneDumbG0/media/Doom%20Stats/DoomSkill02Daredevil38.jpg.html)

And, as noted, by Cap's estimation the first time they met, he'd be a match without his armor for any one of an Avengers lineup which at that time included Quicksilver and Wanda.

Ah, I didnt realize that by skivvies doom actually HAD BEEN in his skivvies. The lion I grant you, the other, he was in daredevils body, so dooms physical stats arent counted, only his knowledge and skill of the martial arts. Ok, objection withdrawn, I just figured I should point out that lex isnt some pencil neck geek only able to fight in a set of massive hero killer armor. He is dolf lundregen in rocky 4. :smallbiggrin:

[Raimun]

Things go back and forth like this for some time, with Luthor's final desperate move being to go back in time prevent Cynthia Von Doom from making her fateful deal with Mephisto- Doom can't counter this move without consigning his mother back to hell.

Final result: Luthor, by a hair, managing to reset things so that the fight never happened, and we have a very different Victor Von Doom.

Doom is the master of time travel. He invented it. Any attempt to beat him in his own game usually end with Doom unraveling the whole time travel plan and then giving a stern lecture about the dangers of messing with time travel. You know, before any acts of vengeance.

[Benthesquid]

Doom is the master of time travel. He invented it. Any attempt to beat him in his own game usually end with Doom unraveling the whole time travel plan and then giving a stern lecture about the dangers of messing with time travel. You know, before any acts of vengeance.

Oh, I'm well aware that he could stop Luthor. I just believe that under those circumstances, he would choose not to.

[Tiki Snakes]

Doom is the master of time travel. He invented it. Any attempt to beat him in his own game usually end with Doom unraveling the whole time travel plan and then giving a stern lecture about the dangers of messing with time travel. You know, before any acts of vengeance.


Oh, I'm well aware that he could stop Luthor. I just believe that under those circumstances, he would choose not to.

Not being an expert in the slightest, I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest there may be some dots you've missed the joining up of on this one.

Namely, the idea that it would be possible to prevent Cynthia Von Doom's fateful deal by using time travel. If it was possible, don't you think Doom would have already tried it himself?
More specifically, why else do you think Doom would have gone to the trouble of inventing a time machine in the first place?

No, I'd imagine that things would play out very similarly to events as outlined by Raimun, Luthor goes back and tries to prevent Doom ever existing, only for it all to unravel at the last minute and leave him both defeated and sternly talked to on the subject of temporal ethics or some such.

Oh, and on that note I was of the understanding that in the context of a versus thread, that using time travel to prevent the birth/creation of your opponent was equivalent to having fled the field of battle; A loss on technical grounds, at least according to the unofficial grammar of such situations. So I'm not sure that resorting to that particular plan would count as a victory even if it wasn't so likely that Doom would be able to prevent it from being successful.

[Bitter]

Doom would win. Doom is Marvel's number one villain in the comics, not just of because who his nemesis is but because in and of himself he is that threatening.

At the moment the entire Marvel Multiverse is being destroyed. One of the two key forces behind it? Doom. One of his lackeys? The Molecule Man, a guy with near-infinite reality warping power.

Dude is OP.


In their skivvies, keep in mind that lex is consistently shown to be peak human shape and a master of martial arts. He is almost always built like a prize fighter and often shown beating five flavors of hell out of a number of sparring partners he is judo tossing all over the mats. Without his power armor, I am honestly not sure what doom can physically do.

Doom is a master martial artists and one of the most powerful magicians in the universe.

Also Lex isn't consistently shown to be in peak human shape. When Grant Morrison introduced him in New 52 for instance he was shown to be an energy drink guzzling businessman/scientist self-centred coward without decent physique who was meant to represent the worst of humanity.

[Drascin]

Admittedly I have limited knowledge of comics and none about Doom but I do have some about Luthor. First is that Lexcorp isn't merely 'just' a company, it is large enough and powerful enough that Lex says becoming the POTUS is a step down both in what he can accomplish and the freedom he has to achieve his goals. Plus, that speaks of how well he is able to get people on his side rather than Doom where...well...it sounds like an iron-handed dictatorship. If given a choice, would the people of Latveria willingly follow Doom? As for a will of iron, power armor, and fighting skills, Luthor has all of those too in addition to his intellect.

It depends on version. Or, well, on how much of a Doom apologist the writer is. On one extreme, you have "Doom as a ruthless, terrible despot which all of his subjects resent but none dare rise against". On the other extreme, you have "Doom is right and has turned Latveria into an economical utopia and everyone loves Doom". This is very inconsistent among portrayals, so I figure going for a middle ground for our general depiction here would be fair.

[HandofShadows]

Doom is the master of time travel. He invented it. Any attempt to beat him in his own game usually end with Doom unraveling the whole time travel plan and then giving a stern lecture about the dangers of messing with time travel. You know, before any acts of vengeance.

While Doom did invent time travel on his own, Reed Richards father Nathaniel built the first (known) one. But you're correct. Doom is VERY good at time travel and Lex would be utterly outclassed if he tried to use it.

[Psyren]

In addition to the money, clones and tech, isn't Doom a master sorcerer as well?

Anyone who could potentially give Supes a run for their money is not going to break a sweat taking down Lex.

[Red Fel]

In addition to the money, clones and tech, isn't Doom a master sorcerer as well?

Anyone who could potentially give Supes a run for their money is not going to break a sweat taking down Lex.

Yeah, this is a thing. The Kryptonian's biggest weakness, after the rocky remains of his homeworld, is magic. Lex, despite having people to cover just about any eventuality, doesn't really do magic. He's a scientist. He knows magic exists, has colleagues who do it, but it's not his bag.

Everything is Doom's bag. Science? Check. Dictatorship? Check. Magic? Infernal double-check.

Again, however, it boils down to solo or team battle. In a solo battle, Doom's mastery of magic tips the scale in his favor. In a team battle, Lex's ability to play well with others, coupled with his affiliations with supers of vastly varied specializations, dumps the entire scale on its side in his favor. There are, without question, sorcerers more powerful than Doom, and if anyone could recruit them, Luthor could.

Particularly if he's being played by Gene Hackman.

[Flickerdart]

I think that for a good VS, we should probably adjudicate Lex's diplomacy rather more harshly than it has been. On the one hand, it's not fair to say "Luthor can't call allies" because being able to sweet-talk people is a big part of Lex's character, but on the other, we can't just throw the Justice League at Doom because then it's Doom vs the Justice League and not vs Luthor.

How about something like this: Luthor can go around recruiting minions, but neither he nor Doom are allowed allies who are personally more powerful than they are. So Luthor doesn't get Superman and Doom doesn't get Molecule Man or whatever, but there's still a pretty high bar for underlings given that Lex and Doom are both major villains who have crushed many a wanna-be hero and would-be usurper in the past.

[Rakaydos]

Can Doombots use magic?

It occurs to me that while Luthor can throw every hero and villian at doom at the same time, Doom might be able to match them with an equal number of "I cant believe it's not Doom" superbots, probably complete with megalomaniac diatribe.

[comicshorse]

Can Doombots use magic?



Pretty sure not

[Mato]

Why would Superman have more knowledge?Because he can do stuff like this

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111128955/4074444-5840110359-wC93K.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111128955/4074445-3582018898-KOXh0.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111128955/4074447-4064499162-1H7cV.jpg

And that's not even the first time he has done that.

His more evolved kryptonian brain allows him to memorize and recall information better than us and then you add his super powers on top of that. 5 minutes and hes read every medical text book in the library, and he didn't even need an actual surgeon's stead hands to finish the job.

Imagine if he actually applied him self and stopped at MIT, Harvard, and Standford's libraries for some binge reading.

[Red Fel]

I think that for a good VS, we should probably adjudicate Lex's diplomacy rather more harshly than it has been. On the one hand, it's not fair to say "Luthor can't call allies" because being able to sweet-talk people is a big part of Lex's character, but on the other, we can't just throw the Justice League at Doom because then it's Doom vs the Justice League and not vs Luthor.

How about something like this: Luthor can go around recruiting minions, but neither he nor Doom are allowed allies who are personally more powerful than they are. So Luthor doesn't get Superman and Doom doesn't get Molecule Man or whatever, but there's still a pretty high bar for underlings given that Lex and Doom are both major villains who have crushed many a wanna-be hero and would-be usurper in the past.

Here's the thing, though: Does Doom actually have any minions other than his Doombots and nameless mooks? Sure, he can hire some of the gun-for-hire types of the Marvel world, but if we're excluding the truly dangerous ones, that doesn't mean a lot, since Lex can do the exact same thing.

That said, Lex has some real power behind him, and it's kind of hard to ignore. Founded the Legion of Doom. Heavy hand in the Cadmus project. Personally involved in the creation of several supers (e.g. Metallo). Commanded several government-funded supers while President. You kind of have to take note of that stuff.

And how do you define "allies who are personally more powerful" anyway? I mean, Lex is functionally a human. Perhaps he's fit, perhaps not, and certainly he's brilliant and rich, but just about everyone in the DC universe is more powerful than he is. Heck, Mercy Graves is his personal bodyguard, and in most iterations, it's safe to argue that she's personally more powerful than he is. (Particularly in Young Justice, but for different reasons.)

[Flickerdart]

Here's the thing, though: Does Doom actually have any minions other than his Doombots and nameless mooks? Sure, he can hire some of the gun-for-hire types of the Marvel world, but if we're excluding the truly dangerous ones, that doesn't mean a lot, since Lex can do the exact same thing.

That said, Lex has some real power behind him, and it's kind of hard to ignore. Founded the Legion of Doom. Heavy hand in the Cadmus project. Personally involved in the creation of several supers (e.g. Metallo). Commanded several government-funded supers while President. You kind of have to take note of that stuff.

And how do you define "allies who are personally more powerful" anyway? I mean, Lex is functionally a human. Perhaps he's fit, perhaps not, and certainly he's brilliant and rich, but just about everyone in the DC universe is more powerful than he is. Heck, Mercy Graves is his personal bodyguard, and in most iterations, it's safe to argue that she's personally more powerful than he is. (Particularly in Young Justice, but for different reasons.)
Lex's personal power has already been covered - he gets into a robot suit powerful enough to punch Superman through things. Superman still beats him, so he's stronger, but anyone that Lex could hypothetically beat up with the robot suit is fair game.

[Red Fel]

Lex's personal power has already been covered - he gets into a robot suit powerful enough to punch Superman through things. Superman still beats him, so he's stronger, but anyone that Lex could hypothetically beat up with the robot suit is fair game.

So... Could he beat up Solomon Grundy? Gorilla Grodd? They're both physical powerhouses, the latter also highly intelligent. Sinestro? Not physically as powerful, but energy manipulation is a thing. Toymaker? He might have deadly robots of his own. Bizarro? As strong as Superman, but not nearly as smart.

Lex's scheming is similar to Batman's, and it's arguable that Lex could set up contingencies that would allow him to defeat anybody in the Legion of Doom. Does that mean he's more powerful than they are, or just more cunning? Or does cunning count?

See my point? It's hard to gauge "personally powerful," given how many factors are involved. One could make the argument that he's more powerful than the entirety of the Legion of Doom, and therefore could deploy them against Vic.

Of course, then we'd be debating Lex Luthor vs X, Y, and Z, and spinning this thread off into myriad iterations before we could come back to the crux of the matter. It's not a question of "Could Lex Luthor beat these other supers?" It's a question of "Could Lex Luthor beat Dr. Victor von Doom?"

[Traab]

So, why not just keep things simple? WHile both doom and luthor like to work through intermediaries such as doombots or legion members and such, both have no problem with taking the field themselves and actually fighting it out when needed. No outside help, no manipulating the various lineups of their respective universes, just lex and doom, man to man, let the best fighter win. Pull in feats from their continuities all you like, so long as its personal power and not the time when they convinced the one above all to reset the timeline so reed was born with a funny haircut or whatever.

[Psyren]

Because he can do stuff like this

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111128955/4074444-5840110359-wC93K.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111128955/4074445-3582018898-KOXh0.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111128955/4074447-4064499162-1H7cV.jpg

And that's not even the first time he has done that.

This whole scene made me laugh my ass off. "I just read every medical text ever published." No Supes, at best you read all the ones in that library, some of which are probably from the 30s and include information like the health benefits of a daily cigarette.

Well, at least he didn't save her by flying against the earth's rotation to rewrite history this time :smalltongue:

[Flickerdart]

This whole scene made me laugh my ass off. "I just read every medical text ever published." No Supes, at best you read all the ones in that library, some of which are probably from the 30s and include information like the health benefits of a daily cigarette.
How do you know that library didn't have a computer with access to the Internet? :smallamused:


Well, at least he didn't save her by flying against the earth's rotation to rewrite history this time :smalltongue:
He wasn't flying against the Earth's rotation - he was flying so fast that he went back in time (and hitting "reverse" on time would naturally make the Earth appear to spin backwards). At least, that's the explanation I've heard.

[Psyren]

How do you know that library didn't have a computer with access to the Internet? :smallamused:

Oh pardon me, the INTERNET made him a great surgeon. I'm sure all the information there is accurate, useful and not contradictory :smallwink:

Not to mention that, if he was using the internet, he goes down from "Kryptonian speed-reading" to "library internet connection, likely using IE6 with half the updates and BonziBuddy installed."

[Flickerdart]

Superman obviously uses his power of super-compression to speed up downloads. And Google Scholar instead of Wikipedia. :smalltongue:

[Anteros]

So, why not just keep things simple? WHile both doom and luthor like to work through intermediaries such as doombots or legion members and such, both have no problem with taking the field themselves and actually fighting it out when needed. No outside help, no manipulating the various lineups of their respective universes, just lex and doom, man to man, let the best fighter win. Pull in feats from their continuities all you like, so long as its personal power and not the time when they convinced the one above all to reset the timeline so reed was born with a funny haircut or whatever.

Well doing this somewhat defeats the purpose of the exercise because you're arbitrarily eliminating what makes the characters powerful. These characters aren't straight bruisers like Superman or Lobo. When a character's primary strength is manipulation or planning, and you put them in a scenario that disallows that then you don't really get a satisfying result.

It's like the Superman vs Batman debate. Yes, Superman wins if he just sucker punches Bats when he isn't expecting it. The only way you get a satisfying fight is by pitting the strengths of both characters against each other, which requires the existence of things like time to plan, or outside sources.

To answer your question though, Doom wins in a straight fight. Easily.

[Red Fel]

To answer your question though, Doom wins in a straight fight. Easily.

Pretty much this. Both have tech. Both have money. Both have brains, influence, and physical training. Doom is consistently depicted as more physically fit, however, and has sorcery on top of that. Doom wins in a straight fight, pretty solidly.

Neither Doom nor Luthor would ever engage in a straight fight. And that's the point. One of Luthor's biggest strengths, as mentioned, is his collaborative effort. He has more - and more powerful - friends than Doom does. In any fight that includes friends, Luthor wins hands down.

Both of these points have been fairly well established in this thread, I think.

So really, it's a question of parameters. If we define it as a fair fight, personal abilities only, Doom wins by a margin. If we define it as a full-scale assault, all resources available, Luthor wins by a wide margin.

So instead, let's define it by a third category: Enemies.

Luthor's nemesis is Superman, the paragon of the DC universe. He has more or less whatever powers are convenient to the plot. And although Luthor has "won" in some ways - sponsoring new villains, becoming President, etc. - he has never fully beaten Superman, except inasmuch as you can never seem to keep him down.

Doom's nemesis is Reed Richards, aka Mr. Fantastic, one of the greatest minds of the Marvel universe. I don't recall whether Doom has "beaten" Richards in any instances - I invite people with more encyclopedic knowledge than mine to chime in.

So, first question: Who has the more powerful nemesis? And second question: Who has beaten their nemesis more successfully, or more thoroughly?

[Avilan the Grey]

Doom wins, because he is awesome and interesting.
Lex is... why are we even talking about him?

[Anteros]

I think they're too different. Reed fights in a team, and uses his brain. Supes is mostly solo and relies on his brawn. I don't think Luthor would have any chance against Reed. Reed is basically a walking deus ex machina on a scale that even Batman could never dream of achieving. At most Luthor might be able to point Reed at someone else and convince him he wasn't a threat.

Doom would stand a small chance against Superman due to his vulnerability to magic, and tendency to underestimate his opponents. If Doom went for a direct kill shot straight away there's a chance Superman would try to tank it instead of avoiding it because that's a thing he does. If Superman takes the fight seriously from the start Doom is paste.

As for their personal victories against their nemesis...in 50 years of comics there have been far too many victories and losses to keep track of. There have been stories where Luthor kills Superman and Doom rules the universe. Comics aren't really consistent enough for this kind of debate.

[Red Fel]

Lex is... why are we even talking about him?

Because he was played by Gene Hackman and Clancy Brown, both of whom are awesome?

[Anteros]

Doom wins, because he is awesome and interesting.
Lex is... why are we even talking about him?

I personally find Luthor more interesting. Doom is just your standard maniacal tyrant. Sure, he thinks his way is best, but so do a lot of villains.

[Psyren]

I find Lex boring. He's only still breathing because his opponents are paragons of virtue. If you tally up all the bad he's done, Supes could easily be justified in tossing him into space or snapping his neck and being done with it. But Doom? Throw him into space and you might have just annoyed him.

It's like Xykon said - if your power depends on stuff you can't control (like your friends) then you don't really have power at all. Innate ability trumps every time.

[HandofShadows]

But Doom? Throw him into space and you might have just annoyed him.

And later you find out that it was a Doom Bot and that Doom had planned for the bot to be tossed into space.

[The Glyphstone]

I personally find Luthor more interesting. Doom is just your standard maniacal tyrant. Sure, he thinks his way is best, but so do a lot of villains.

On the other hand, he's got a lot more justification for thinking so than most villains. Latveria is, apparently, an incredibly high-tech place and a fantastic place to live as long as you do not question the supremacy of DOOM. So if he ever got over his Reed Richards obsession, he'd have a lot of potential to actually improve the world. Admittedly, Lex is the same way with Superman...but this is just comic-book status quo. Ironically troped as Reed Richards Is Useless.:smallsmile:

EDIT: Never mind, I looked it up and Latveria is a terrible place to live. So much for DOOM's benevolence.

[Lord Raziere]

On the other hand, he's got a lot more justification for thinking so than most villains. Latveria is, apparently, an incredibly high-tech place and a fantastic place to live as long as you do not question the supremacy of DOOM. So if he ever got over his Reed Richards obsession, he'd have a lot of potential to actually improve the world. Admittedly, Lex is the same way with Superman...but this is just comic-book status quo. Ironically troped as Reed Richards Is Useless.:smallsmile:

Nope, thats cut Lex Luthor A Check, Reed Richards is Useless is for HEROES.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Doom wins, because he is awesome and interesting.
Lex is... why are we even talking about him?

I find it the exact opposite honestly. I don't know what's so interesting about Doom.

[Traab]

On the other hand, he's got a lot more justification for thinking so than most villains. Latveria is, apparently, an incredibly high-tech place and a fantastic place to live as long as you do not question the supremacy of DOOM. So if he ever got over his Reed Richards obsession, he'd have a lot of potential to actually improve the world. Admittedly, Lex is the same way with Superman...but this is just comic-book status quo. Ironically troped as Reed Richards Is Useless.:smallsmile:

I got the impression that lex would have been a bad guy even if superman never existed for him to obsess over. He just would have likely stuck to being a corporate bad guy. Making back room deals for shipments to go "missing" so he could sell to anyone he wants without getting caught, designing bigger and worse weapons while fomenting wars in random countries that dont exist in our earth in order to get them to buy his stuff on both sides, things like that.

[The Glyphstone]

Nope, thats cut Lex Luthor A Check, Reed Richards is Useless is for HEROES.

Oh right. So almost as ironic.

[gooddragon1]

Doesn't lex luthor get superman's abilities at one point? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RfUUJH2TvU)

Then there's the effect of superman going into the sun giving him reality warping power or something I think.

[Benthesquid]

Doom's nemesis is Reed Richards, aka Mr. Fantastic, one of the greatest minds of the Marvel universe. I don't recall whether Doom has "beaten" Richards in any instances - I invite people with more encyclopedic knowledge than mine to chime in.

Three occasions come to mind. In the Unthinkable arc, after, among other things, selling his soul and making mystical armor out of his ex-girlfriend (not... my favorite interpretation of the character) he forced Reed to admit that he wasn't smart enough to defeat Doom and rescue his children.

Then there was the time that after Doom and Reed teamed up to stop the Dreaming Celestial, Reed was trapped in Doom's armor and Doom was MIA. Eventually the armor began driving Reed mad (I'm a little vague on whether this was an intentional mystical boobytrap left by Doom, or just the result of his sheer force of personality seeping into the armor). Eventually Doom showed up and rallied the rest of the team to defeat/rescue Reed, commenting at the end "As Richards, he had not equal. As Doom, he had no chance."

Finally, there was the time that, during Sue's third (?) pregnancy, there were cosmic radiation complications, and Reed was unavailable/unable to help, so Johnny went to Doom for help. Doom saved both Sue and her daughter, demanding only that he be allowed to name the child, and then gloated about it to Reed for, like, ever.

[Mato]

Doesn't lex luthor get superman's abilities at one point? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RfUUJH2TvU)

Then there's the effect of superman going into the sun giving him reality warping power or something I think.I think you're talking about Prime.

He spends a couple hundred years in the sun and has all the different kinds of abilities (but not the sum of their power) of his bloodline. Which the exception of the 4th dimensional kind, likely they blocked access. Prime is sort of a false idol. Hes greatest achievements was resurrection, something others can do easily, and beating Solaris using the greatest green lantern ring, which is something the JL does weekly. The idea or Prime is more powerful than the depiction of Prime.

And if you want to get theoretical, Doom stole the Beyonder's powers and only gave them back by choice. Unlike Prime, the Beyonder does abuse his 4th+ dimensional powers.

[Psyren]

Doesn't lex luthor get superman's abilities at one point? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RfUUJH2TvU)

Yeah, occasionally Lex will briefly get powers (Supes or a power ring etc.) because blah blah contrived writer bullcrap blah.

Doom meanwhile is awesome constantly. And whenever he loses his powers he actually becomes more dangerous.

[Cheesegear]

Doom wins, because he is awesome and interesting.
Lex is... why are we even talking about him?

I like how you don't even back up your opinion with anything.

Lex actually has rhetoric that works. "Superman is the worst thing to happen to humanity..." Lex Luthor: Man of Steel is actually compelling. Black Ring Lex Luthor is legit. The Gospel According to Lex Luthor (part of All-Star Superman) actually works - although Morrison can pretty much write anything, and it'll be good. When Luthor is written properly, it's actually fairly clear how a normal human, with intelligence, money, and the rhetoric to back it up, actually poses a real threat to Superman, and, ultimately, how Luthor can become President, when we - the audience - know he's the bad guy. The only reason Luthor lost his Presidency is because he grabbed onto the closest Idiot Ball he could find and never let go, not even managing to serve out a full term.

When I think of Doom, I get...Well, I actually have to use Google to find anything that makes Doom interesting, because I can't think of anything off the top of my head like I can with Luthor, because nobody cares about Doom. Because he's lame. Super-Powers. Megalomaniac. Pretty standard stuff, really. Magneto, at least, has identifiable goals and the requisite rhetoric to back it up. Doom is the leader of his nation because he is the leader. When you're Dictator-For-Life, you don't really need to do anything to keep your power.

Unthinkable is okay, and actually shows how Doom became so...Bland.
Emperor Doom is fine.
Secret Wars is a thing that happened.
(Noting that I had to Google all three, since Doom is so boring I can't remember anything that he does)

The only Doom story that I can actually remember that was worth reading is Triumph and Torment, where Doom teams up with Strange and they both go to Hell. Which is a fine story, mostly.

[Drascin]

I like how you don't even back up your opinion with anything.

Lex actually has rhetoric that works. "Superman is the worst thing to happen to humanity..." Lex Luthor: Man of Steel is actually compelling. Black Ring Lex Luthor is legit. The Gospel According to Lex Luthor (part of All-Star Superman) actually works - although Morrison can pretty much write anything, and it'll be good. When Luthor is written properly, it's actually fairly clear how a normal human, with intelligence, money, and the rhetoric to back it up, actually poses a real threat to Superman, and, ultimately, how Luthor can become President, when we - the audience - know he's the bad guy. The only reason Luthor lost his Presidency is because he grabbed onto the closest Idiot Ball he could find and never let go, not even managing to serve out a full term.

When I think of Doom, I get...Well, I actually have to use Google to find anything that makes Doom interesting, because I can't think of anything off the top of my head like I can with Luthor, because nobody cares about Doom. Because he's lame. Super-Powers. Megalomaniac. Pretty standard stuff, really. Magneto, at least, has identifiable goals and the requisite rhetoric to back it up. Doom is the leader of his nation because he is the leader. When you're Dictator-For-Life, you don't really need to do anything to keep your power.

Unthinkable is okay, and actually shows how Doom became so...Bland.
Emperor Doom is fine.
Secret Wars is a thing that happened.
(Noting that I had to Google all three, since Doom is so boring I can't remember anything that he does)

The only Doom story that I can actually remember that was worth reading is Triumph and Torment, where Doom teams up with Strange and they both go to Hell. Which is a fine story, mostly.

Let's be fair. When Doom isn't written by wanky writers (lord, that whole thing with the spirit tiger was just... what are you even doing), he's a very fun villain. Unlike Lex, he has a certain warped sense of "honor" that reframes the opposition he gives, and his ridiculous, unbounded, booming arrogance can be legitimately fun. Luthor never quite gets that booming self-assuredness and self-destroying sheer arrogance right.

They represent different basic flaws as their core. Lex is Envy. He envies Superman. He wasnt to destroy that which he can't control or posess, because he should be the one lording everything. Victor is Arrogance. Doom is incapable of even feigning weakness for a plot to work - Doom NEEDS to be looked upon in fear and awe. Lex will go with what works - for Doom, a victory gained without completely demolishing your opponent doesn't even count.

Doom takes Magneto's megalomania, the part of the character that always felt like a tack on, and makes it legitimately work for him by owning it and making it his actual character foible, born from an inferiority complex the size of Saturn exacerbated by his status as perpetual secnd or third best, instead of the Standard Villain Package.

The thing is that a lot of writers like him too much, so he often has the Batman Problem.

[Devonix]

Let's be fair. When Doom isn't written by wanky writers (lord, that whole thing with the spirit tiger was just... what are you even doing), he's a very fun villain. Unlike Lex, he has a certain warped sense of "honor" that reframes the opposition he gives, and his ridiculous, unbounded, booming arrogance can be legitimately fun. Luthor never quite gets that booming self-assuredness and self-destroying sheer arrogance right.

They represent different basic flaws as their core. Lex is Envy. He envies Superman. He wasnt to destroy that which he can't control or posess, because he should be the one lording everything. Victor is Arrogance. Doom is incapable of even feigning weakness for a plot to work - Doom NEEDS to be looked upon in fear and awe. Lex will go with what works - for Doom, a victory gained without completely demolishing your opponent doesn't even count.

Doom takes Magneto's megalomania, the part of the character that always felt like a tack on, and makes it legitimately work for him by owning it and making it his actual character foible, born from an inferiority complex the size of Saturn exacerbated by his status as perpetual secnd or third best, instead of the Standard Villain Package.

The thing is that a lot of writers like him too much, so he often has the Batman Problem.


One thing I do love about Doom is that he's in a way right about Richards. Reed's an ******* with a very Very crappy family. Two of his descendants end up becoming major world threats. Kang and Rama Tutt both kill a whole lot of people and mess with the timeline so often I'd consider it the reason Doom built his time machine.

[comicshorse]

On the other hand, he's got a lot more justification for thinking so than most villains. Latveria is, apparently, an incredibly high-tech place and a fantastic place to live as long as you do not question the supremacy of DOOM. So if he ever got over his Reed Richards obsession, he'd have a lot of potential to actually improve the world. Admittedly, Lex is the same way with Superman...but this is just comic-book status quo. Ironically troped as Reed Richards Is Useless.:smallsmile:

EDIT: Never mind, I looked it up and Latveria is a terrible place to live. So much for DOOM's benevolence.

As other posters commented Latveria varies from writer to writer. Sometimes its a technological paradise (provided you don't buck the rules) other times.........less so.


Also re Luthor changing the world. I remember a wonderful bit after the DC heroes vanished for a year in universe (perhaps someone with greater knowledge could find a link to the page) and Luthor is storming Metropolis with a giant robot and Superman re-appears to stop him. Lex starts to give his normal 'I'm doing this for mankind' speech and Superman calmly points out that Lex has always said if he wasn't combating Superman he would do great things for the world and here Superman has been gone for a year and Lex....has built another superweapon

[HandofShadows]

One thing I do love about Doom is that he's in a way right about Richards. Reed's an ******* with a very Very crappy family. Two of his descendants end up becoming major world threats. Kang and Rama Tutt both kill a whole lot of people and mess with the timeline so often I'd consider it the reason Doom built his time machine.

Kang and Rama Tutt are the same person, just at different points of their time traveling life. Also Kang is a descendant of Reed's half brother (who is from an alternate reality where Nathaniel Richards traveled to. And Kang takes after his mother than he does his father), not of Reed himself. Reed's kids actually seem to be rather good.

[Devonix]

This whole scene made me laugh my ass off. "I just read every medical text ever published." No Supes, at best you read all the ones in that library, some of which are probably from the 30s and include information like the health benefits of a daily cigarette.

Well, at least he didn't save her by flying against the earth's rotation to rewrite history this time :smalltongue:

He does that for quick bursts of learning. But it's mostly just years and years of study. Superman, at least before New 52 spent years traveling the world learning different cultures, languages sciences. Studying in the fortress to be smart enough to solve problems with his mind as well as with his powers.

That's the real reason Lex sees him as a threat, Supes is one of the few people that can keep up with him mentaly, and has the physicality to back it up.

[Red Fel]

I'd like to point out one more thing.

Luthor has been bested by Superman, Batman, and occasionally other members of the Justice League. That's an impressive Rogue's Gallery, for a villain to have.

Doom, however, was defeated by Earth's Mightiest Hero. I speak, of course, of Squirrel Girl.

Anybody who counts Squirrel Girl among their nemeses, in my mind, is clearly a powerhouse, to be respected and feared.

More on point, I tend to agree that Lex is more compelling as a person. Even ignoring different writing styles, Lex represents the American dream in ways that Superman doesn't. Lex is a self-made millionaire, a hard-working genius and keen businessman. He works himself up from nothing (in some versions, he was a foster child from an abusive household) and becomes one of the wealthiest, most brilliant, and most powerful men alive; even President. Whereas Superman represents this ideal of innate potential, Luthor has had to work for everything he has. He has no super powers, no alien tech behind him (at least, not at first), just gumption and brilliance.

And yet, people love the cape. They adore Superman. Idealize him. It must be infuriating, to be so brilliant, so hard-working, such an embodiment of human determination, and to be outshone by something that has never had to work for it, and isn't even human to begin with. That's compelling, human drama right there.

Doom... Doom has drama. That whole thing with his mother and hell and stuff? That's drama. But he seems more needlessly hammy, to me. I'm not saying that's a bad thing - I happen to love his style. I love his sense of honor and nobless oblige. But he seems a bit flatter, to me, than Lex.

There's also the fact that, as mentioned, Lex was played by some pretty awesome actors, and Doom... Well, while I'm a big fan of Julian McMahon (who will forever be Cole Turner in my mind), that movie was rubbish, and Doom should feel shame just for having his name attached to it.

[Avilan the Grey]

Because he was played by Gene Hackman and Clancy Brown, both of whom are awesome?

Hackman might be awesome, but his portrayal of Lex sure wasn't. Of course it wasn't his fault that Lex was written like a comical relief.

As for Mr Brown... Never saw his version, since I don't tend to watch or read anything with Superman in it since Blue And Red Superman appeared. He is my least favorite A-list superhero of all time.

As for Doom and his country: It is all a case of Depending On The Writer. Sometimes it is a hellhole. Other times Doom is extremely popular WITHOUT using any kind of threats or coercion, because he is a very fair ruler who gives everything for free (education, healthcare etc).
Also depending on the same writers Doom is either a megalomaniac (yes, we all admit that) with a very strong sense of honor, that truly respect other strong people as long as they are not Reed, and who takes good care of his servants and his people while the writes who portray Latveria as a hellhole also portray him as a cross between Stalin, Ivan the Terrible and a grumpy ancient dragon with no redeeming properties whatsoever.

Also, I just realized Google Chrome's spell check recognizes Latveria!!

[Red Fel]

As for Mr Brown... Never saw his version, since I don't tend to watch or read anything with Superman in it since Blue And Red Superman appeared. He is my least favorite A-list superhero of all time.

Clancy Brown has become less known for his personal appearances (but see Highlander) and more known for his voice acting. Chances are, if you've seen an animated series with excellent voice acting (e.g. Avatar: The Last Airbender, Justice League) you've heard Mr. Brown's villainous snarl. He's a pro. He's a boss. And he has played Luthor in pretty much everything related to the DCAU (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DC_animated_universe), at least until more recently.

Which means that Brown's Luthor exists in the same universe as Hamill's Joker. Which is awesome.


Also, I just realized Google Chrome's spell check recognizes Latveria!!

Just as Doom had planned!

[Avilan the Grey]

Clancy Brown has become less known for his personal appearances (but see Highlander) and more known for his voice acting. Chances are, if you've seen an animated series with excellent voice acting (e.g. Avatar: The Last Airbender, Justice League) you've heard Mr. Brown's villainous snarl. He's a pro. He's a boss. And he has played Luthor in pretty much everything related to the DCAU (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DC_animated_universe), at least until more recently.

Which means that Brown's Luthor exists in the same universe as Hamill's Joker. Which is awesome.


Never watched any DCAU (never got it here) nor Avatar. Mildly interested in the former (and not only because of Harley Quinn - Poison Ivy shipping), no interest in the latter.

[Psyren]

As other posters commented Latveria varies from writer to writer. Sometimes its a technological paradise (provided you don't buck the rules) other times.........less so.


Also re Luthor changing the world. I remember a wonderful bit after the DC heroes vanished for a year in universe (perhaps someone with greater knowledge could find a link to the page) and Luthor is storming Metropolis with a giant robot and Superman re-appears to stop him. Lex starts to give his normal 'I'm doing this for mankind' speech and Superman calmly points out that Lex has always said if he wasn't combating Superman he would do great things for the world and here Superman has been gone for a year and Lex....has built another superweapon

Also this. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrcUb8MENAg)

Yeah, Lex is just being delusional.


He does that for quick bursts of learning. But it's mostly just years and years of study. Superman, at least before New 52 spent years traveling the world learning different cultures, languages sciences. Studying in the fortress to be smart enough to solve problems with his mind as well as with his powers.

That's the real reason Lex sees him as a threat, Supes is one of the few people that can keep up with him mentaly, and has the physicality to back it up.

I'm not questioning his ability to internalize all the info they had. Just the incongruity of his statement (what library - anywhere - has "every medical text ever published?") and only-mostly-serious concerns about the quality of the data he just digested.

It feels like attosecond all over again is all - some writer wants their godlike character to say something cool that illustrates both the frame of reference they operate from and how they can use it to solve the current conflict in the story, but it comes off so outlandishly absurd (at least to me) that it ends up sounding comical instead. (Heh - "comical.")


Luthor has been bested by Superman, Batman, and occasionally other members of the Justice League. That's an impressive Rogue's Gallery, for a villain to have.

Doom, however, was defeated by Earth's Mightiest Hero. I speak, of course, of Squirrel Girl.

Anybody who counts Squirrel Girl among their nemeses, in my mind, is clearly a powerhouse, to be respected and feared.

It's hard to tell on the web so I don't know if you're being sincere or not, but didn't she take out Thanos too?

[Avilan the Grey]

It's hard to tell on the web so I don't know if you're being sincere or not, but didn't she take out Thanos too?

Indeed. She is a joke character.

[Red Fel]

Indeed. She is a joke character.

There's nothing "joke" about a woman who can take out Thanos.

And not on a date, either. We all know Thanos has eyes for only one woman... being... personification of a cosmic function... thing.

[Devonix]

Indeed. She is a joke character.

No. She is a Silver age character in a modern setting

[Avilan the Grey]

No. She is a Silver age character in a modern setting

She is indeed a joke character. That's why all her wins are off camera, for one thing.

[Devonix]

She is indeed a joke character. That's why all her wins are off camera, for one thing.

She has just as many on camera wins as she has off camera ones

[Red Fel]

She is indeed a joke character. That's why all her wins are off camera, for one thing.

Off camera, you say?

http://fanboygaming.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/squirrelgirl-doom.jpeg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124784/2985419-7081243885-Squir.jpg

Notice Iron Man's typo in the first panel. That's because he's been drinking again.
http://i.stack.imgur.com/mTB9V.jpg

[HandofShadows]

She is indeed a joke character. That's why all her wins are off camera, for one thing.

Deadpool, MODOK and Wolverine are depicted. So, no.

[Psyren]

"Joke character" and "Silver Age character" aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. In this case, it's poking fun at the anticlimactic ways badass Silver Age villains could get taken out. (Or in the case of Thanos, merely imagining how that fight could have gone is the joke.)

[Callos_DeTerran]

Also this. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrcUb8MENAg)

Yeah, Lex is just being delusional.

Well, couple points here. The first one lacks a lot of context to it. Yeah Lex refuses and spits on the glass, because everything he despises is the one challenging him to do something. And lets be honest, it is basically Superman going 'if you're so smart, why haven't you fixed everything?' but that's also why he refuses. Lex knows how smart he is and Superman knows how smart he is, Luthor has nothing to prove in that regard to either of them. Luthor is arrogant but he's not THAT arrogant.

And of course Lex is being delusional, he's a supervillain. He's not the good guy and while supervillains should have depth and such they aren't supposed to be in the right. By definition he is one of the people constantly screwing up the planet and causing problems for the superheroes to fix. But just like Doom-wankery, there are also instances of Lex being right...that without Superman or anything else like him that Lex does exactly that...he turns all of Earth into a utopia. Or the times he actually does defeat superman. It does happen too. And to be honest, he's not BAD at his jobs either. He runs a highly successful company that people continue to apply to jobs to work there, so obviously its worth it. He managed to get elected to president and the reason he got thrown out is because one of his schemes got exposed, not because people were unhappy with what he was doing.

[Psyren]

Well, couple points here. The first one lacks a lot of context to it. Yeah Lex refuses and spits on the glass, because everything he despises is the one challenging him to do something. And lets be honest, it is basically Superman going 'if you're so smart, why haven't you fixed everything?' but that's also why he refuses. Lex knows how smart he is and Superman knows how smart he is, Luthor has nothing to prove in that regard to either of them. Luthor is arrogant but he's not THAT arrogant.

And of course Lex is being delusional, he's a supervillain. He's not the good guy and while supervillains should have depth and such they aren't supposed to be in the right. By definition he is one of the people constantly screwing up the planet and causing problems for the superheroes to fix. But just like Doom-wankery, there are also instances of Lex being right...that without Superman or anything else like him that Lex does exactly that...he turns all of Earth into a utopia. Or the times he actually does defeat superman. It does happen too. And to be honest, he's not BAD at his jobs either. He runs a highly successful company that people continue to apply to jobs to work there, so obviously its worth it. He managed to get elected to president and the reason he got thrown out is because one of his schemes got exposed, not because people were unhappy with what he was doing.

"Doom-wankery?" :smalltongue:

I don't recall ever saying Lex's delusions weren't consistent with his character. Yes, I know he's a supervillain and that being delusional about something (or alternatively, understanding the truth about what you really are and being too amoral or psychotic to care, a la Joker or Deathstroke) is part and parcel of that. But you just proved my point - if he really wanted to help humanity, he wouldn't care that his worst enemy challenged him to do that, he would help humanity. He wouldn't care whether he "has something to prove or not" - he would do it because he can and because he cares, without letting pride get in the way. He actually doesn't care more about humanity than he does his own ego, so he refuses.

[lord_khaine]

Bonus: Squirrel Girl vs. Thanos


it should be pointed out that while this fight seems to be cannon, then it has also by the same author been revealed that Thanos is able to create weaker copies of himself that can fool even a watcher.

[The Glyphstone]

it should be pointed out that while this fight seems to be cannon, then it has also by the same author been revealed that thanos is able to create weaker copies of himself that can fool even a watcher.

RETCONS! EVERYWHERE! text

[Avilan the Grey]

Deadpool, MODOK and Wolverine are depicted. So, no.

YOu're right, that was so long ago (the Doom fight) that I had forgotten it was actually depicted. My bad.
Still, she originated as a joke, and if Doom (and Thanos of course) actually had used their powers, it would not have have happened. Her victories are canon, but I cannot take them seriously.

[Mato]

http://38.media.tumblr.com/59f31bef27ee2c098d91858c752d19ad/tumblr_n2duvqq6lG1s9rpajo1_r2_500.gif (http://cardboard-crack.com/post/79521250941/emrakul):smallcool:

[Bitter]

I'm not questioning his ability to internalize all the info they had. Just the incongruity of his statement (what library - anywhere - has "every medical text ever published?") and only-mostly-serious concerns about the quality of the data he just digested.

It feels like attosecond all over again is all - some writer wants their godlike character to say something cool that illustrates both the frame of reference they operate from and how they can use it to solve the current conflict in the story, but it comes off so outlandishly absurd (at least to me) that it ends up sounding comical instead. (Heh - "comical.")

If Superman isn't ridiculously over the top, he isn't being written right. I'll have the Superman who fires minute cancer-curing Kryptonians from his hand, thanks.

Same with Doom.

http://i.imgur.com/ZrqPcOE.png

[Traab]

If Superman isn't ridiculously over the top, he isn't being written right. I'll have the Superman who fires minute cancer-curing Kryptonians from his hand, thanks.

Same with Doom.

http://i.imgur.com/ZrqPcOE.png

See now, that could actually be taken in a different way. He finds omnipotence beneath him because its a cheat. He isnt really winning because he is better, he is winning through no effort, no proof of being better, he wins by fiat. Its like putting in the god mode code on a video game. Yeah you beat the game, but the victory is worthless because you didnt earn it.

[Cheesegear]

More on point, I tend to agree that Lex is more compelling as a person.
[...]
Doom... Doom has drama.

You're on point. Going through my list of Good Lex Stories and Good Doom Stories I see a pattern;
Lex Luthor: Man of Steel and All-Star Superman (the parts pertaining to Lex, that is), the compelling parts of Lex is his rhetoric. His verbal exchange with Clark and/or Superman. The parts where Lex punches Supes using Apokolips armour is ancillary to who Lex is, as a person. Although, like Legend of Korra, I get fairly annoyed when Lex's fancy rhetoric simply ends in a fight. Superman can punch harder than Lex, ergo, Lex is wrong in his beliefs.
NO. You fail at writing.
Smallville's Lex Luthor never engaged Clark physically, like never. However, Lex did manage to make Clark question himself, his powers and his motives several times which lead to Clark failing in his goals, all on his own, because Lex was in his head. Everytime I think of Lex, I think of Michael Rosenbaum, doing a fantastic job of everything and making the first Seasons of Smallville actually watchable. Smallville wouldn't have got very far without Rosenbaum.

When I think of DOOM, I barely register him as a character - as a real person. I can remember him doing things, like in Secret Wars, and Triumph and Torment, and I can remember all those times Doom did something cool on the page. I know Doom whines about Reed Richards, and I know that he whines about his Mum. Doom is a big baby. With big toys. So when Doom has a hissy fit, and throws his toys around his room, he's throwing his DEATH LASERS around THE WORLD. But, he's still a baby having a tantrum, and that's all Doom really is.

My point is, anyone who thinks Lex isn't interesting, must not even know who Lex is.

[Tiki Snakes]

You're on point. Going through my list of Good Lex Stories and Good Doom Stories I see a pattern;
Lex Luthor: Man of Steel and All-Star Superman (the parts pertaining to Lex, that is), the compelling parts of Lex is his rhetoric. His verbal exchange with Clark and/or Superman. The parts where Lex punches Supes using Apokolips armour is ancillary to who Lex is, as a person. Although, like Legend of Korra, I get fairly annoyed when Lex's fancy rhetoric simply ends in a fight. Superman can punch harder than Lex, ergo, Lex is wrong in his beliefs.
NO. You fail at writing.
Smallville's Lex Luthor never engaged Clark physically, like never. However, Lex did manage to make Clark question himself, his powers and his motives several times which lead to Clark failing in his goals, all on his own, because Lex was in his head. Everytime I think of Lex, I think of Michael Rosenbaum, doing a fantastic job of everything and making the first Seasons of Smallville actually watchable. Smallville wouldn't have got very far without Rosenbaum.

When I think of DOOM, I barely register him as a character - as a real person. I can remember him doing things, like in Secret Wars, and Triumph and Torment, and I can remember all those times Doom did something cool on the page. I know Doom whines about Reed Richards, and I know that he whines about his Mum. Doom is a big baby. With big toys. So when Doom has a hissy fit, and throws his toys around his room, he's throwing his DEATH LASERS around THE WORLD. But, he's still a baby having a tantrum, and that's all Doom really is.

My point is, anyone who thinks Lex isn't interesting, must not even know who Lex is.

Guess I don't know who Lex even is, then. :smalltongue:
From what I saw of it, I did rather like Smallville's Lex, but I never got the feeling that came from the source character so much as a critical-hit bit of casting and the crew and writers bouncing off of Rosenbaum. Most other Lex's I have encountered tend not to come anywhere close to being so compelling, on numerous levels.

[Avilan the Grey]

You're on point. Going through my list of Good Lex Stories and Good Doom Stories I see a pattern;
Lex Luthor: Man of Steel and All-Star Superman (the parts pertaining to Lex, that is), the compelling parts of Lex is his rhetoric. His verbal exchange with Clark and/or Superman. The parts where Lex punches Supes using Apokolips armour is ancillary to who Lex is, as a person. Although, like Legend of Korra, I get fairly annoyed when Lex's fancy rhetoric simply ends in a fight. Superman can punch harder than Lex, ergo, Lex is wrong in his beliefs.
NO. You fail at writing.
Smallville's Lex Luthor never engaged Clark physically, like never. However, Lex did manage to make Clark question himself, his powers and his motives several times which lead to Clark failing in his goals, all on his own, because Lex was in his head. Everytime I think of Lex, I think of Michael Rosenbaum, doing a fantastic job of everything and making the first Seasons of Smallville actually watchable. Smallville wouldn't have got very far without Rosenbaum.

When I think of DOOM, I barely register him as a character - as a real person. I can remember him doing things, like in Secret Wars, and Triumph and Torment, and I can remember all those times Doom did something cool on the page. I know Doom whines about Reed Richards, and I know that he whines about his Mum. Doom is a big baby. With big toys. So when Doom has a hissy fit, and throws his toys around his room, he's throwing his DEATH LASERS around THE WORLD. But, he's still a baby having a tantrum, and that's all Doom really is.

My point is, anyone who thinks Lex isn't interesting, must not even know who Lex is.

Well as stated above, I guess I don't know who Lex is. Admittedly I have not read Superman since the early 90s, but Lex has been along for a long time before that. As far as I remember he bounces back and forth between whining about Clark (because deep down he is jealous... Oh and Clark accidentally made him bald. BALD! And That is Horrible.), whining because he is being a well-intended extremist (Superman is too powerful! A threat to this planet! Also, I will ignore all other godlike superheroes because CLAAAARK!!!), and outright being your typical Supercriminal Overlord (if he was indeed a well-intended extremist, leading the League of Doom would be unthinkable to him. Turns out he is just your basic supervillain after all).

[Cheesegear]

Well as stated above, I guess I don't know who Lex is. Admittedly I have not read Superman since the early 90s

...There's your problem. Ignorance isn't exactly an argument. :smallsigh:
All-Star Superman, the best Superman book of all time, was 2005-08, and gave us the modern Luthor. Of course, Luthor was already being redefined by the aforementioned Michael Rosenbaum on Smallville. So, let's just say you're a bit out of touch. Although New 52 botched some things, the basics are still there, mostly, after all, Lex did make the Justice League not too long ago.

If All-Star Batman and Robin is unfortunately springing to mind, well, yeah. That's garbage. All-Star is one of those rare occurrences where the Superman title vastly outshines the running Batman title.

[Tiki Snakes]

So, wait. When it comes to knowing Lex Luthor, the trick is to what... Ignore the other 90 years or so of his publication history and focus on a three year run and a single TV series?

Or is it that we focus on a three year run and the current incarnation where it resembles that three year run?

[Cheesegear]

Or is it that we focus on a three year run and the current incarnation where it resembles that three year run?

We focus on the version that doesn't suck, and if it's modern, even better. 20 years ago, Lex Luthor was a fine villain. Lex Luthor from 20 years ago doesn't hold up. People change - even comic book characters. Hell, what you're actually supposed to do is LITERALLY ignore that stuff, because Retcons can mean that stuff that happened 20 years ago, didn't happen.

EDIT: Basically, the biggest problem is that nobody appears to even read comic books, and people appear (IMO) to just be picking whatever version they're familiar with. To put it in perspective, the last episode of Justice League Unlimited, where Lex is shown the ALE, and runs off with Darkseid to parts unknown, happened almost ten years ago!

#NotMyLexLuthor.

[Tiki Snakes]

Well, if you say so. You're the expert after all. Personally, I never got the impression that I had to pick and choose which era of DOOM I was talking about in order to have a Doom I enjoyed and considered a compelling character, with the caveat that regardless of the era I prefer his appearances outside of the Fantastic Four because I have no interest in them.

I've no more expertise in the Doom of the last ten years than I have the Luthor of the last ten years, so I can't really comment on that particular frame of reference. If we're talking twenty, thirty years ago though, I'll take Doom as the better character in a heartbeat.

And of course, in the context of DC, people change more literally than otherwise, what with todays Luthor literally being a different person in a different continuity, several times removed, retconned and reimagined from his 1940 origin.

[Cheesegear]

Well, if you say so. You're the expert after all. Personally, I never got the impression that I had to pick and choose which era of DOOM I was talking about in order to have a Doom I enjoyed and considered a compelling character, with the caveat that regardless of the era I prefer his appearances outside of the Fantastic Four because I have no interest in them.

Basically, the biggest problem is that nobody appears to even read comic books, and people appear (IMO) to just be picking whatever version they're familiar with. To put it in perspective, the last episode of Justice League Unlimited, where Lex (the super-smart prize-fighter physique version) is shown the ALE, and runs off with Darkseid to parts unknown, happened almost ten years ago. And don't even get me started on the Luthor from the Donner movies, he's not even remotely the same as he is now. Even the John Shea version from the Lois & Clark TV Show is different - he has hair! Jesse Eisenberg!Luthor will probably be...Well, Jesse Eisenberg, I guess.

Well...I heard cigarettes were pretty cool 20 years ago, too. Remember how TOTALLY RAD Rob Liefeld was, with 'blood' suffixes and prefixes everywhere? More MUSCLES! And GUNS as BIG as YOUR WHOLE BODY. Awesome, right? Well...20 years later, we know better, now. Cigarettes aren't actually cool and Liefeld is one of the biggest in-jokes of the industry despite how cool he was at the time. So, when somebody tells me that they don't find Luthor interesting, and they're stating that opinion based on something from 20 years ago... Well, everything changes.

The Luthor that you identify as the Luthor with isn't the same as the one I identify. That's fine, everyone gets opinions. But the difference is, I know the Luthor from the Donner movies. I watched Lois & Clark. I watched all 10 Seasons of Smallville - three times! Insomnia...What're you gonna do? Then there's All-Star Luthor, then there's New 52 Luthor. Each time a new iteration of the character comes out, bits that stink are taken out - or left in on purpose - and parts that make the character compelling are left in, and then there are bits that are just tacked on. Or, maybe we're even talking about the DCUO version where Luthor comes back from the future to give everyone super-powers?

It's all about frames of reference. A 20 year-old vision of Luthor is 20 years old, and that's all there is to it.

[Devonix]

We focus on the version that doesn't suck, and if it's modern, even better. 20 years ago, Lex Luthor was a fine villain. Lex Luthor from 20 years ago doesn't hold up. People change - even comic book characters. Hell, what you're actually supposed to do is LITERALLY ignore that stuff, because Retcons can mean that stuff that happened 20 years ago, didn't happen.

EDIT: Basically, the biggest problem is that nobody appears to even read comic books, and people appear (IMO) to just be picking whatever version they're familiar with. To put it in perspective, the last episode of Justice League Unlimited, where Lex is shown the ALE, and runs off with Darkseid to parts unknown, happened almost ten years ago!

#NotMyLexLuthor.

I think one of the problems is just that people aren't specific enough when it comes to the character. They Treat "Lex" or "Superman" as the sum total of all of their comic, movie, or television appearances when they are all different characters

Lex from New 52 is a different person, than Pre Crisis Lex, or Richard Donner Lex, or Lois and Clark the new adventures of Superman Lex.

They are so different that you could literally toss them all in a room together and have a death battle just between them.

For the normals I would see this as difficult to understand, hell it's why we get people hating on multiverse stories. But you can't really have comics without a multiverse Marvel and DC keep trying but it only makes things more convoluted getting rid of it than it does keeping it.

[Drascin]

Plus, well. Doom also gets a lot of his most interesting stuff in relatively recent decades. Sixties Doom was honestly little more than an idiot in a mask spouting cliche villain lines and "THIS CANNOT BE". Recent Doom is a guy with a sense of drama that allows him to understand how to challenge Loki (a god and therefore a creature of myths and stories) precisely through drama.

So this vs is inherently a lot more fun if we forget about the silver age versions for both characters.

[Avilan the Grey]

Never watched smallville. Well I saw the first two episodes I think.

[Red Fel]

Basically, the biggest problem is that nobody appears to even read comic books, and people appear (IMO) to just be picking whatever version they're familiar with.

I take issue with this position, for the following reason:


I think one of the problems is just that people aren't specific enough when it comes to the character. They Treat "Lex" or "Superman" as the sum total of all of their comic, movie, or television appearances when they are all different characters

That's the point. Even within "the comics" there are multiple versions of the same character, across years, across writers, across storylines. So instead of picking apart each individual Lex and Doom, a lot of us pick the versions with which we are most familiar, of which we are most fond, or which we think are the most powerful.

And let's not forget, one proposed basis of comparison was taking each of the two at the "peak" of their powers. Well, what that means differs from one person to the next, methinks.

Admittedly, more recent comics have given more complexity, nuance, and even moral ambiguity to both characters. Let us not forget that, when comics were under the Comics Code, villains could not be morally ambiguous - bad was bad and good was good, the end, because we couldn't confuse the children like that. Of late, however, that's been (mercifully) abandoned, to an extent - as mentioned, Lex joined the Justice League at one point, and Doom even helped Sue out (and never let Reed live it down). Similarly, recent television series - particularly those involving young, pretty people - abandoned the silver age simplicity of comically larger-than-life heroes and comically mustache-twirling villains, in favor of personal drama, conflicted heroes, and complex and layered villains. I'm hearing good things about CW's Flash, for example. Moreover, the television series often add new elements that the comics end up integrating - from the DCAU alone, we got the rewritten (and far more compelling) Mr. Freeze, as well as Harley Quinn and Mercy Graves.

More than all of this, however, is consistency and availability. Ignoring movie reboots, it seems as though the characters depicted in television series and movie franchises are more consistent than their comic book counterparts, who get retconned and redone every time the writers hand off the baton. Clancy Brown's animated Lex is the same character, whether he's on a Batman cartoon, a Superman cartoon, or a Justice League cartoon; Kevin Conroy's Batman is universally recognizable and internally consistent. These examples are also more recent than some older comic book versions, and more readily accessible - I think it safe to say that more people have a TV set in their house than a comic book, on average, nowadays. The end result is that people are more likely to be familiar with Cartoon!Lex or Movie!Doom than with their comic counterparts, and those who know both will find the former a more stable illustration of the character than the latter.

All this put together means that I really can't fault people, myself included, for going beyond the comics to find illustrations (no pun intended) of characters who originated in comics. There's good material out there.

[Psyren]

My point is, anyone who thinks Lex isn't interesting, must not even know who Lex is.

I agree Lex is interesting, in the same way that the Joker is interesting - because they can't go toe-to-toe with the hero (usually) but they can defeat him mentally and emotionally by making him doubt himself. But that's precisely what pulls me out of the experience - no matter how monstrous they are or how many innocents they hurt or kill, there are no long-term consequences. With someone like Doom (who is in fact far more complex than you make him out to be) at least we have a plausible reason why he keeps coming back or why the heroes can't put him down for good beyond their own staggering Lawful Stupidity.

And yeah, I know there can't really be anything long-term because comic book. But when the very medium I'm reading breaks my immersion to remind me that it's just a comic book and none of it matters in the end, for me at least I begin thinking I'm better off doing anything else with my time.

[Tiki Snakes]

That's the point. Even within "the comics" there are multiple versions of the same character, across years, across writers, across storylines. So instead of picking apart each individual Lex and Doom, a lot of us pick the versions with which we are most familiar, of which we are most fond, or which we think are the most powerful.

And let's not forget, one proposed basis of comparison was taking each of the two at the "peak" of their powers. Well, what that means differs from one person to the next, methinks.

Admittedly, more recent comics have given more complexity, nuance, and even moral ambiguity to both characters. Let us not forget that, when comics were under the Comics Code, villains could not be morally ambiguous - bad was bad and good was good, the end, because we couldn't confuse the children like that. Of late, however, that's been (mercifully) abandoned, to an extent - as mentioned, Lex joined the Justice League at one point, and Doom even helped Sue out (and never let Reed live it down). Similarly, recent television series - particularly those involving young, pretty people - abandoned the silver age simplicity of comically larger-than-life heroes and comically mustache-twirling villains, in favor of personal drama, conflicted heroes, and complex and layered villains. I'm hearing good things about CW's Flash, for example. Moreover, the television series often add new elements that the comics end up integrating - from the DCAU alone, we got the rewritten (and far more compelling) Mr. Freeze, as well as Harley Quinn and Mercy Graves.

More than all of this, however, is consistency and availability. Ignoring movie reboots, it seems as though the characters depicted in television series and movie franchises are more consistent than their comic book counterparts, who get retconned and redone every time the writers hand off the baton. Clancy Brown's animated Lex is the same character, whether he's on a Batman cartoon, a Superman cartoon, or a Justice League cartoon; Kevin Conroy's Batman is universally recognizable and internally consistent. These examples are also more recent than some older comic book versions, and more readily accessible - I think it safe to say that more people have a TV set in their house than a comic book, on average, nowadays. The end result is that people are more likely to be familiar with Cartoon!Lex or Movie!Doom than with their comic counterparts, and those who know both will find the former a more stable illustration of the character than the latter.

All this put together means that I really can't fault people, myself included, for going beyond the comics to find illustrations (no pun intended) of characters who originated in comics. There's good material out there.

Firstly, I'll say that I doubt anyone is going to argue for Doom on the basis of the movies. Unless you're talking about him appearing in one of Marvel's direct-to-DVD animated films. There's little good to say about the Fantastic Four films, and their version of Doom is definitely not one of those few things.

Personally, it's less a case of me choosing a particular incarnation and more a case that when I compare two characters like this, I tend to take the long-view and look at them in an overall, amalgamated kind of way. Today's Doom is supposedly the same one who lost to Squirrel Girl, who has feuded with Reed in comics for all this time, though there have been a few alternate reality ones and retcons and so on along the way. In comparison, there's a laundry list of entirely distinct Lex Luthors from many different universes and continuities, sometimes but not always coinciding with characterisation shifts. But when comparing the two in a general way, I'm going to look vaguely at the whole package. Meta-Doom compared to Meta-Lex, so to speak. That means taking into account the particulars of their silver age (and earlier in Lex's case) shenanigans and quirks as well as their major spinoffs and what little I might know of the most modern bits.

And I can say, on this basis, Lex is usually both less interesting to me personally and less convincing conceptually. After all, you have a Super-Villain without any kind of secret identity whose super-powers are being quite smart and incredibly super-rich, who is somehow able to feud long-term with Superman, rather than being arrested for blatant supervillainy and losing his company in the same issue his current iteration debuts in. I mean, he's not only one of the most evil of villains in many of his depictions, he's also up against a man who has an iron-clad public opinion on his side and who works in his downtime as an investigative reporter.


I agree Lex is interesting, in the same way that the Joker is interesting - because they can't go toe-to-toe with the hero (usually) but they can defeat him mentally and emotionally by making him doubt himself. But that's precisely what pulls me out of the experience - no matter how monstrous they are or how many innocents they hurt or kill, there are no long-term consequences. With someone like Doom (who is in fact far more complex than you make him out to be) at least we have a plausible reason why he keeps coming back or why the heroes can't put him down for good beyond their own staggering Lawful Stupidity.

And yeah, I know there can't really be anything long-term because comic book. But when the very medium I'm reading breaks my immersion to remind me that it's just a comic book and none of it matters in the end, for me at least I begin thinking I'm better off doing anything else with my time.

Yeah, see the difference for me is that the only assumption you need to make to have the Joker free to survive and continue is that the state Gotham is in lacks the death penalty. Everything else is if not 100% plausible, at least not particularly threatening to the suspension of disbelief. Luthor in comparison needs to remain in charge of Lex-Corp to offer any meaningful opposition or pose any meaningful threat and that's really hard to justify on any long-term basis, he's an out and out supervillain, works with supervillains and commits widespread supervillainy whilst not in disguise and somehow rarely has any trouble with the law, his board of directors or even general public opinion. For that to make sense, the entire DC United States has to be hilariously corrupt, because he'd need blanket media propaganda and the entire judiciary in his pocket, minimum.

Which would be a genuinely interesting setting, it would provide stories I'd be at least vaguely interested in reading, but it's very much not the world DC show us, not in any version I've heard of at least.

[Devonix]

I disagree that the character needs LexCorp to be relevant because for most Of his career lex corp either didn' exist or he didn't have acess to it.

even in the Justice League cartoon Lex Luthor didn't have lexcorp for two of the seasons

[Devonix]

I disagree that the character needs LexCorp to be relevant because for most Of his career lex corp either didn' exist or he didn't have acess to it.

even in the Justice League cartoon Lex Luthor didn't have lexcorp for two of the seasons

As far as films and the public the upcoming movie will be the first time lex corp has ever been done on film

[Psyren]

Yeah, see the difference for me is that the only assumption you need to make to have the Joker free to survive and continue is that the state Gotham is in lacks the death penalty.

This assumes that Batman and Superman are beholden to state/local laws. But they break those all the time (Batman for instance trespasses regularly, or commits theft), or alternatively they are considered exempt, which means they should be able to carry out executions if they deem it necessary and are simply choosing not to. At the very least, they could incarcerate the villains themselves rather than handing them over to very fallible local law enforcement. Throw Joker in Atlantis or Oa or something. (Actually, that last one might be a really bad idea.)

[Bitter]

Plus, well. Doom also gets a lot of his most interesting stuff in relatively recent decades. Sixties Doom was honestly little more than an idiot in a mask spouting cliche villain lines and "THIS CANNOT BE". Recent Doom is a guy with a sense of drama that allows him to understand how to challenge Loki (a god and therefore a creature of myths and stories) precisely through drama.

So this vs is inherently a lot more fun if we forget about the silver age versions for both characters.

Dr Doom was always pretty much what he is now.

http://i.imgur.com/eGZoIYD.jpg

He's an absolutely confident genius with an incredible arrogance that goes straight into a superiority complex and a penchant for taking on god-like beings and usurping them or stealing their power, albeit with a streak of nobility.

[Callos_DeTerran]

This assumes that Batman and Superman are beholden to state/local laws. But they break those all the time (Batman for instance trespasses regularly, or commits theft), or alternatively they are considered exempt, which means they should be able to carry out executions if they deem it necessary and are simply choosing not to. At the very least, they could incarcerate the villains themselves rather than handing them over to very fallible local law enforcement. Throw Joker in Atlantis or Oa or something. (Actually, that last one might be a really bad idea.)

For the Joker at least, they have tried incarcerating him in other locations. It quite simply does not work. Hell, he's broken out of worse prisons then Arkham faster than he does in Arkham. But yeah, they hold themselves beholden to state/local laws because they are in fact the heroes. It doesn't make quite as much sense in Batman's case since he's supposed to be a symbol of fear, but Superman does have very good reasons for not...well...just killing Lex Luthor. He wouldn't be Superman if he did. And where does Superman stop at that point? Where's the cut-off for if Superman should execute a criminal? Is it entirely up to his judgement, cause he sees the absolute worst that these villains do usually and could easily make the WRONG choice out of the heat of the moment.

[Flickerdart]

For the Joker at least, they have tried incarcerating him in other locations. It quite simply does not work. Hell, he's broken out of worse prisons then Arkham faster than he does in Arkham. But yeah, they hold themselves beholden to state/local laws because they are in fact the heroes. It doesn't make quite as much sense in Batman's case since he's supposed to be a symbol of fear, but Superman does have very good reasons for not...well...just killing Lex Luthor. He wouldn't be Superman if he did. And where does Superman stop at that point? Where's the cut-off for if Superman should execute a criminal? Is it entirely up to his judgement, cause he sees the absolute worst that these villains do usually and could easily make the WRONG choice out of the heat of the moment.
We've even seen what happens when Superman starts killing - the Justice Lords happen, and nobody wants that.

[Psyren]

But yeah, they hold themselves beholden to state/local laws because they are in fact the heroes.

And with a normal criminal I would totally agree. But these are folks we know will kill innocents in the future if not dealt with permanently. If you know for a fact that someone will commit a murder, and you know for a fact that no jail you have access to will prevent that from happening, then not doing anything or trying to use that jail anyway is tantamount to allowing it to happen.


We've even seen what happens when Superman starts killing - the Justice Lords happen, and nobody wants that.

The what now?

And why would removing one horrible person (Lex) from this mortal coil necessarily lead to anything for anyone else?

Yeah I know, metaphysically he wouldn't be Superman anymore and blah blah. Change isn't necessarily bad.

[Red Fel]

The what now?

And why would removing one horrible person (Lex) from this mortal coil necessarily lead to anything for anyone else?

Yeah I know, metaphysically he wouldn't be Superman anymore and blah blah. Change isn't necessarily bad.

It's been done, particularly in the animated universe. Something pushes Superman too far, and he kills someone. (Usually Lex.) This results in Superman realizing just how effective killing the villains actually is. They don't come back. They don't make any more problems. And the ones that stay around are scared out of their heads. (Superman can be downright terrifying (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zexXH3lS8Uw) when he wants to be.)

The Justice Lords were an alternate-reality extension of that idea. A member of the JL gets whacked (no spoilers as to who), and they all go off the reservation. They decide that the world needs some "looking after," and take over.

But it all starts with compromise. Specifically, the compromise of values. There's nothing "metaphysical" about it. When a member of the JL deliberately, willfully takes a life, believing it to be the right thing to do, and realizing afterwards that they can do it some more. It's the worst kind of slippery slope for the Son of Krypton.

[Callos_DeTerran]

And with a normal criminal I would totally agree. But these are folks we know will kill innocents in the future if not dealt with permanently. If you know for a fact that someone will commit a murder, and you know for a fact that no jail you have access to will prevent that from happening, then not doing anything or trying to use that jail anyway is tantamount to allowing it to happen.

Thing is, Lex is (to a degree) a normal criminal. From what I do know of Lex (not too much) most of his schemes aren't INTENDED to just kill people, there is always some other motive behind it and innocent bystanders are just caught in the crossfire. When he does specifically set out to kill them, its via assassination or something and it is generally very difficult to trace back to Luthor with any concrete proof beyond 'Luther didn't like him and now he's dead and Luther has profited'.

Fact is, when Luther is in Jail, he does actually seem to be quite capably prevented from doing stuff. Sure, he gets out via legal shenanigans (he has the money to make that work too) or via escape, but the fact prison works on Lex just means they need a better prison for him. Compare to others where being in prison is usually just a speed-bump.

That said, we the readers 'know' they will kill innocents in the future, but not always. I mean sure, the Joker is pretty much a lost cause, but the rest of them have at times worked to save people at various points in their careers with it unknown if they'll turn back besides 'they're cooler as a villain and thus worth more money' which is a meta-reason to execute someone. If, say....Metallo decided to not be a robotic henchman and become a superhero, yeah the people reading know he's probably bound to be a villain again but that doesn't mean he doesn't deserve his chance to do right. Plus, superheroes (most especially Superman) are incredibly optimistic and believe almost anyone can change for the better. Not just the better but become good people, they almost HAVE to believe it to do what they do. So yeah, the sort who are imprisoned (aside from Batman villains to a degree) don't totally deserve to be summarily executed and the ones who aren't imprisoned tend to be like...cosmic forces of evil that heroes DO try to destroy when they can.




The what now?

And why would removing one horrible person (Lex) from this mortal coil necessarily lead to anything for anyone else?

Yeah I know, metaphysically he wouldn't be Superman anymore and blah blah. Change isn't necessarily bad.

The Justice Lords aka 'When Superman and other heroes decided to do exactly what you suggested'.

And why would it lead to anything for anyone else? Well...why wouldn't it? You've just subjectively made the world a better place by getting rid of Luthor. Why not Toymaker? Why not the inhabitants of Arkham? Why not Toymaker? Why not that third-strike criminal who seems completely unrepentant for what he's done? Its a slippery slope.

[Bitter]

And with a normal criminal I would totally agree. But these are folks we know will kill innocents in the future if not dealt with permanently. If you know for a fact that someone will commit a murder, and you know for a fact that no jail you have access to will prevent that from happening, then not doing anything or trying to use that jail anyway is tantamount to allowing it to happen.

http://i.imgur.com/jO8lN3l.png

[Psyren]

It's the worst kind of slippery slope for the Son of Krypton.


he's done? Its a slippery slope.

You guys do know Slippery Slope is a fallacy, (https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope) right? Unless Supes is a robot, there is no concrete reason he can't just kill Lex and stop there.

Take Toymaker for example - now I'm sure at some point in the past, some writer sharted out contrived a story in which he took down the entire League, including Batman, Flash, Green Lantern and Supes, single-handedly. But aberrations like that aside, he strikes me as being a third-stringer at best, with nowhere near Lex or Joker's bodycount. For someone like that, incarceration and possible rehabilitation would be fine, he hasn't crossed the kind of moral event horizon the other two have.

I know the writers were forced to make him say "feels good man" and become a homicidal megalomaniac in order to justify their silly status quo as being the lesser of two evils, but purely in-universe there really is no reason to assume this would actually happen. Or they contrive something else, like "hero dies killing his archenemy," or "hero kills archenemy, becomes despondent, gives up hero-ing, crime/aliens/demons/etc. get even worse" and so on.


http://i.imgur.com/jO8lN3l.png

Pretty sure death is an object to muggles like Joker and Lex. Just make sure it's really them.

[Callos_DeTerran]

http://i.imgur.com/jO8lN3l.png

...The last part of that quote is hilarious.

@Psyren:

Okay, but why stop there? That isn't what you've answered. Toymaker is a third-stringer to the best of my knowledge, but he's also been a fairly abominable human being at times (not sure where, but I remember him trying to kill a school bus full of kids, might have been an accident though). So are most of the supervillains because they'll put people in danger purely to gain a strategic edge even if they aren't positive the superhero won't be able to stop it or might go after them instead. The person willing to endanger the lives of dozens/hundreds/thousands as part of a distraction obviously doesn't care if those lives are actually ended whither the hero manages to save them or not. They put them into that situation in the first place.

For some, THAT is moral event horizon and by the above logic worthy of being taken out.

For some, being mind-controlled or bodily transformed is a moral event horizon.

My point being everyone's values is different. Everyone's 'well that's it, you've finally gone too far' line is at a different place. So say Superman does kill Lex Luthor. Does the line shift because Supes is willing to deal out the death penalty now or does everyone have to cross the line Luthor did? What about if say...the Blue Beetle (random ass hero!) wants to do something similar because he feels a villain crossed the moral event horizon? Could Supes really say Blue Beetle has done wrong when he's done the same thing in the past? If every hero acted on their own morals, Wonder Woman would probably be considered a supervillain in her own right since value system is rather old and she isn't concerned about killing villains, but they would no longer have the public's trust. Why would they? They aren't going by laws or anything at that point, just what they feel is right.

[Psyren]

@Psyren:

Okay, but why stop there? That isn't what you've answered. Toymaker is a third-stringer to the best of my knowledge, but he's also been a fairly abominable human being at times (not sure where, but I remember him trying to kill a school bus full of kids, might have been an accident though). So are most of the supervillains because they'll put people in danger purely to gain a strategic edge even if they aren't positive the superhero won't be able to stop it or might go after them instead.

Trying to kill kids - or perhaps not even trying to, but sort of accidentally coming close to it (Toymaker), and actually doing it (Joker) are two different things, wouldn't you say?


The person willing to endanger the lives of dozens/hundreds/thousands as part of a distraction obviously doesn't care if those lives are actually ended whither the hero manages to save them or not. They put them into that situation in the first place.

For some, THAT is moral event horizon and by the above logic worthy of being taken out.

For some, being mind-controlled or bodily transformed is a moral event horizon.

That could be a reasonable place to draw the line, sure. But even if you move the line all the way back to actual bodycount, both Lex and Joker would still be damned by sheer numbers, and more importantly, by sheer willingness, capacity and certainty of doing it again.



My point being everyone's values is different. Everyone's 'well that's it, you've finally gone too far' line is at a different place. So say Superman does kill Lex Luthor. Does the line shift because Supes is willing to deal out the death penalty now or does everyone have to cross the line Luthor did?

It's case by case of course. You don't have to draft up a "kill yo ass" charter or bylaws just because you decided Joker doesn't deserve to breathe the same air as innocent people anymore.



What about if say...the Blue Beetle (random ass hero!) wants to do something similar because he feels a villain crossed the moral event horizon? Could Supes really say Blue Beetle has done wrong when he's done the same thing in the past? If every hero acted on their own morals, Wonder Woman would probably be considered a supervillain in her own right since value system is rather old and she isn't concerned about killing villains, but they would no longer have the public's trust. Why would they? They aren't going by laws or anything at that point, just what they feel is right.

I find it pretty funny/incredible that they have the public's trust now, what with all the many murders they've failed to prevent due to the revolving door prisons they've put the villains in.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Trying to kill kids - or perhaps not even trying to, but sort of accidentally coming close to it (Toymaker), and actually doing it (Joker) are two different things, wouldn't you say?

If it wasn't an accident? Then to me, they aren't different. The only real difference is that Joker succeeded at killing the children and Toymaker didn't, the intent was the same its just the execution that separates them.




That could be a reasonable place to draw the line, sure. But even if you move the line all the way back to actual bodycount, both Lex and Joker would still be damned by sheer numbers, and more importantly, by sheer willingness, capacity and certainty of doing it again.

Honestly not certain what Lex's actual body count is, but I do know it isn't nearly as high as Joker's. Which is why killing Luthor is usually a tipping point for Supes in the stuff I have seen. But my point remains that the only thing that's different from Joker and those villains without massive bodycounts is either effectiveness (where-in the intent is still there) or the same phenomena for why Endor is still a habitable moon after the second Death Star blew up. So why does Joker die and they don't? Because he actually accomplished what they tried to do?




I find it pretty funny/incredible that they have the public's trust now, what with all the many murders they've failed to prevent due to the revolving door prisons they've put the villains in.

I don't. :smallsmile:

[comicshorse]

Lex from New 52 is a different person, than Pre Crisis Lex, or Richard Donner Lex, or Lois and Clark the new adventures of Superman Lex.
They are so different that you could literally toss them all in a room together and have a death battle just between them.


Now that sounds like a fun versus thread :smallsmile:

[Psyren]

If it wasn't an accident? Then to me, they aren't different. The only real difference is that Joker succeeded at killing the children and Toymaker didn't, the intent was the same its just the execution that separates them.

Honestly not certain what Lex's actual body count is, but I do know it isn't nearly as high as Joker's. Which is why killing Luthor is usually a tipping point for Supes in the stuff I have seen. But my point remains that the only thing that's different from Joker and those villains without massive bodycounts is either effectiveness (where-in the intent is still there) or the same phenomena for why Endor is still a habitable moon after the second Death Star blew up. So why does Joker die and they don't? Because he actually accomplished what they tried to do?

Wait, now I'm confused. In your first paragraph you say that intent to kill (or at least sufficient disregard so as to cause death) should be weighed as being equal to actually killing. But then you say Lex's bodycount isn't as high as Joker's like that means something. If you add var_deaths.intended to var_deaths.actual for both men they actually won't be that far apart - Joker at least has the distinction of mainly threatening Gotham, while Lex has aimed nukes at entire countries while doing his damndest to neutralize or depower the one guy who can stop them.


I don't. :smallsmile:

Well I guess if I was a muggle in a comic book world, I might be as cavalier about my life expectancy too. But that only compounds my earlier problem of finding these universes hard to relate to, even within the context of them being "fantasy."

[Callos_DeTerran]

Wait, now I'm confused. In your first paragraph you say that intent to kill (or at least sufficient disregard so as to cause death) should be weighed as being equal to actually killing. But then you say Lex's bodycount isn't as high as Joker's like that means something. If you add var_deaths.intended to var_deaths.actual for both men they actually won't be that far apart - Joker at least has the distinction of mainly threatening Gotham, while Lex has aimed nukes at entire countries while doing his damndest to neutralize or depower the one guy who can stop them.

I mean, I think Lex's bodycount (threatened or otherwise) isn't as high as Joker's. Has Lex threatened countries with nukes? What was the context? o.o

[Avilan the Grey]

I mean, I think Lex's bodycount (threatened or otherwise) isn't as high as Joker's. Has Lex threatened countries with nukes? What was the context? o.o

Well, he was the president of the US, right?
And a psychopathic asshat?

Why WOULDN'T He threaten countries with nukes?

[Drascin]

Pretty sure death is an object to muggles like Joker and Lex. Just make sure it's really them.

It isn't. Joker's been killed like, three times, minimum.

I think in the current comic moment he's some sort of, like, elemental chaos or curse or something thingy? I stopped keeping up with N52 ages ago.

[comicshorse]

I mean, I think Lex's bodycount (threatened or otherwise) isn't as high as Joker's. Has Lex threatened countries with nukes? What was the context? o.o

I'm pretty sure when he was President he nuked his ex-wife's secret bunker.

[Bitter]

Pretty sure death is an object to muggles like Joker and Lex. Just make sure it's really them.

Great and now we've got demonic versions of Joker and Lex who have been empowered by Neron to be more dangerous than ever.

Thanks a lot, Psyren.

[Psyren]

It isn't. Joker's been killed like, three times, minimum.

I think in the current comic moment he's some sort of, like, elemental chaos or curse or something thingy? I stopped keeping up with N52 ages ago.

Ugh. And what's batman's element? "Preparedness?" :smallsigh:

See, this is exactly the kind of crap writers have to pull out to justify these guys not being dead a long time ago. So now he's gone from a crazy clown-themed gangster whose willingness to do depraved things made him unpredictable, to being a chaos elemental.


I'm pretty sure when he was President he nuked his ex-wife's secret bunker.

That and didn't he fire a nuke at the San Andreas fault that Supes had to go catch/contain?


Great and now we've got demonic versions of Joker and Lex who have been empowered by Neron to be more dangerous than ever.

Thanks a lot, Psyren.

Haven't they both dealt with Neron while alive anyway? It seems that being alive isn't much of a deterrent, so you might as well off them.

For that matter, if the heroes truly want to make a difference, shouldn't they be going after that guy? Or do their prohibitions on killing extend to literal demons? Or are they just not able to, even with all the reality-warping on their team?

[Bitter]

Haven't they both dealt with Neron while alive anyway? It seems that being alive isn't much of a deterrent, so you might as well off them.

Joker exchanged his soul for some cuban cigars, Lex got put back into his normal body. Both in Underworld Unleashed. they both then promptly attempted to backstab Neron.


For that matter, if the heroes truly want to make a difference, shouldn't they be going after that guy? Or do their prohibitions on killing extend to literal demons? Or are they just not able to, even with all the reality-warping on their team?

If they really want to make a difference then the last 80 years of comics should be about them providing irrigation and medical aid in sub-saharan Africa. Probably not as exciting as punching people through mountains though.

[Traab]

Lex has quite the body count if you include indirect killing. He was an amoral tony stark. He sold weapons of mass destruction to pretty much anyone who can pay and didnt care how many wars he just escalated. At least, in the cartoons that was him.

[Red Fel]

You guys do know Slippery Slope is a fallacy, (https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope) right? Unless Supes is a robot, there is no concrete reason he can't just kill Lex and stop there.

Correction. Slippery slope is a metaphor, describing an escalating situation. The slippery slope fallacy arises when you take an event and escalate it to an unreasonable extreme, in an attempt to avoid engaging with the question.

In this case, slippery slope isn't an attempt to avoid engaging with the question - it is the answer to the question. Why can't Supes simply kill Lex? Because, canonically, whenever he has done so, he has asked a perfectly reasonable question: Why stop here?

That's the point. Superman limits himself. He's basically a physical god. His morality is the only thing that keeps him from basically doing whatever he wants, whenever he wants, to whomever he wants. It defines him. If he were to deliberately take a life, the reason it wouldn't stop with just the one is that it would be successful. Superman isn't a robot; he's a thinking person. And although he would be wracked with guilt, he would also be able to see, quite clearly, that killing the bad guys works. It ends the threat, once and for all, exactly like you're suggesting it does. (I mean, if you have to ask why he doesn't do it, it must be clear to you, right?) More than that; it's easy. For most members of the JL, it's easy; for him, it's stepping on an ant easy. With the exception of seriously massive anti-Supes enemies (e.g. Doomsday, Darkseid) most DC villains are easy one-shot targets. Heat vision here, super punch there, bunch of dead guys, and no more crime.

More than that, though; it's canon. It's pretty much established that Superman doesn't do half measures. If he decides to hang up his morality, he does so with gusto. He starts killing baddies like it's going out of style. So we can debate whether it's a fallacy, but ultimately, it's how he behaves.

[Devonix]

It is also that society in the DCU has decided against killing those people. If Superman executes them just because he can, then he is placing himself not only above the law, but above humanity in general.

[Avilan the Grey]

Ugh. And what's batman's element? "Preparedness?" :smallsigh:

See, this is exactly the kind of crap writers have to pull out to justify these guys not being dead a long time ago. So now he's gone from a crazy clown-themed gangster whose willingness to do depraved things made him unpredictable, to being a chaos elemental.

If this is true then THANK GOD I stopped reading comics. Whoever came up with this story should be forced to write safety instructions for aeroplanes (and NOTHING else) for the rest of their lives.

[Cheesegear]

[Killing bad guys] ends the threat, once and for all

It's not just Superman. It's an IRL argument that actually exists, in the upper echelons of actual government. Why did a whole bunch of countries get rid of the death penalty and capital punishment? Because it's just a bad idea.

But there's a second reason that Superman doesn't kill, which you didn't touch on.

What he believes, as an actual person. Kansas has an 86% Christian population (54% Protestant, 29% Catholic). Clark Kent was raised in Kansas, by Kansas parents. For all intents and purposes, Clark Kent more than likely has a working knowledge of Christian dogma. Most media simply gloss over it - 'cause Superman is a legit alien from another planet - others (i.e; Man of Steel) lean into it, and have Clark go directly into a church to ask for help when he doesn't know what to do. For the sake of Forum rules, I wont go any further than that. Just know that this is a thing that exists in Superman media, and not only because Superman is actually an allegory for some guy in a book who was born a while back.

Clark - not Superman, but Clark - believes in humanity because he actually had parents. He believes that people can be redeemed and reformed in a way that Batman simply doesn't. If Superman goes around and straight up murders people, he is removing their chance for redemption/reformation, and that's just not cool.

[Anteros]

You can't really use real world capital punishment arguments when discussing comic book morality. In the real world the Joker or Lex would go to jail, stay there forever, and that would be the end.

[Bitter]

You can't really use real world capital punishment arguments when discussing comic book morality. In the real world the Joker or Lex would go to jail, stay there forever, and that would be the end.

Not to mention why Superman has to do it.

if Joker or Lex are captured, surely there are masses of people in the justice system who would have the same opportunity to kill them. Why aren't we also blaming all of them?

[Cheesegear]

You can't really use real world capital punishment arguments when discussing comic book morality.

You really can. Is it okay to murder a murderer?
Answering that question involves a world of debate.

[Bitter]

You really can. Is it okay to murder a murderer?
Answering that question involves a world of debate.

No, there is always the risk that they could get imbued with the power of the Spectre which if they could control for even a moment would be enough to easily destroy the entire planet.

[Psyren]

Correction. Slippery slope is a metaphor, describing an escalating situation. The slippery slope fallacy arises when you take an event and escalate it to an unreasonable extreme, in an attempt to avoid engaging with the question.

In this case, slippery slope isn't an attempt to avoid engaging with the question - it is the answer to the question. Why can't Supes simply kill Lex? Because, canonically, whenever he has done so, he has asked a perfectly reasonable question: Why stop here?

It doesn't require "an unreasonable extreme." Any situation at all where Z is assumed to always follow from X and Y without any better reason than "because the writers want it to happen that way" qualifies, regardless of how extreme the circumstances are.

If I may quote you yourself here:


Superman isn't a robot; he's a thinking person.

A "thinking person" as you put it, can choose to stop anywhere, for any reason or even no reason at all. If they truly cannot - if they must slide to despot or mass-murderer simply by doing away with one extremely evil man who is guaranteed to cause many more deaths if left unchecked - then they are in fact not a thinking person, they are an automaton. So which is he?


It's not just Superman. It's an IRL argument that actually exists, in the upper echelons of actual government. Why did a whole bunch of countries get rid of the death penalty and capital punishment? Because it's just a bad idea.

We can't really talk about "actual government" here - but I'll raise the obvious point that none of these countries ever had to deal with an unrepentant supervillain. Both Lex and Joker have near unlimited capacity for evil - Lex due to his resources and pride, and Joker due to his depravity - and neither has any plans to change their ways. And again, we know for a fact that the probability they will both cause the deaths of innocents with their remaining lifespans if left alive (however indirectly in Lex's case) approaches 1.

[Red Fel]

A "thinking person" as you put it, can choose to stop anywhere, for any reason or even no reason at all. If they truly cannot - if they must slide to despot or mass-murderer simply by doing away with one extremely evil man who is guaranteed to cause many more deaths if left unchecked - then they are in fact not a thinking person, they are an automaton. So which is he?

There's the problem, though. You accuse me of assuming, and you may well be right, but you're also making an assumption. Your assumption is that, because Superman is a thinking person and not a robot, he can stop murdering anytime he wants. However, as has already been pointed out, killing villains is an effective punishment, an effective prevention of their future crimes, and an effective deterrent to other villains. A thinking person would realize that, and if he were willing to compromise on his morality, would accept it as a viable option.

Your assumption - that Superman would stop - ignores the question of why. Why would he stop? Say he does it once, sees how well it works, and how good it feels (he really, really hates Lex). Why stop?

You ask why Superman wouldn't stop. I argue that it would be more rational, from his position, not to; so why would he stop? What's going to make him stop once he has decided it's okay to kill? Don't say Batman.

[Flickerdart]

If Superman were the kind of person who was willing to kill Lex, he would also be the kind of person willing to kill any other villain. "Kill Lex and nobody else" just doesn't make sense - Lex isn't the deadliest or most evil villain Superman fights.

[Psyren]

If Superman were the kind of person who was willing to kill Lex, he would also be the kind of person willing to kill any other villain.

This is another fallacy (Faulty Analogy). Not all villains are cut from the same cloth; I would not consider the likes of Toymaker to be as dangerous or malicious as Lex for example, so incarceration is appropriate there. It isn't even based solely on personal power - Mister Mxyzptlk is capable of far more death and destruction than Lex ever could be, yet he is not actually evil, so he has never done anything truly heinous long-term. So getting him to simply clean up his mess and go away is by far the more practical and equitable solution.

Simply put, there is a certain "weight class" of villain beyond which redemption is impractical or foolish to expect. I would not expect Supes to want to throw the likes of Darkseid, Doomsday or Parallax in jail. Lex may theoretically be redeemable, but after a while I would start to weigh the innocents likely to die at his hands if left alive as being more significant to his own life, as he shows no signs of wanting to redeem himself at all. (And every time he has, it's turned out to be a ploy, impostor, or otherwise fleeting, and then he's off threatening innocent lives again the following morning.)


There's the problem, though. You accuse me of assuming, and you may well be right, but you're also making an assumption. Your assumption is that, because Superman is a thinking person and not a robot, he can stop murdering anytime he wants. However, as has already been pointed out, killing villains is an effective punishment, an effective prevention of their future crimes, and an effective deterrent to other villains. A thinking person would realize that, and if he were willing to compromise on his morality, would accept it as a viable option.

Your assumption - that Superman would stop - ignores the question of why. Why would he stop? Say he does it once, sees how well it works, and how good it feels (he really, really hates Lex). Why stop?

You ask why Superman wouldn't stop. I argue that it would be more rational, from his position, not to; so why would he stop? What's going to make him stop once he has decided it's okay to kill? Don't say Batman.

Batman! :smalltongue::smallwink:

But see above - one possible metric of where to stop would be "once I've dealt with all the villains who are (a) highly impractical to incarcerate, (b) unlikely to change their ways through incarceration, and (c) capable of imminent harm to innocents that I can't guarantee myself able to prevent." And he would owe it to those innocents in group (c) that would otherwise die.

So going back to Toymaker - yeah he could probably, I dunno, get his hands on a nuke and put it inside a stuffed teddy bear in downtown Metropolis or something. But he doesn't have anywhere close to Lex's resources, so chances are Supes can foil him without breaking a sweat - he overhears the nuke's fissile material degrading while he's floating idly through the mesosphere one morning, pinpoints the trap, and disables it or tosses into space, then locks up Toymaker again and breaks for lunch. All in a day's work.

[Red Fel]

But see above - one possible metric of where to stop would be "once I've dealt with all the villains who are (a) highly impractical to incarcerate, (b) unlikely to change their ways through incarceration, and (c) capable of imminent harm to innocents that I can't guarantee myself able to prevent." And he would owe it to those innocents in group (c) that would otherwise die.

So going back to Toymaker - yeah he could probably, I dunno, get his hands on a nuke and put it inside a stuffed teddy bear in downtown Metropolis or something. But he doesn't have anywhere close to Lex's resources, so chances are Supes can foil him without breaking a sweat - he overhears the nuke's fissile material degrading while he's floating idly through the mesosphere one morning, pinpoints the trap, and disables it or tosses into space, then locks up Toymaker again and breaks for lunch. All in a day's work.

So Superman beats Toymaker, hm (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcDT1QoKjLQ)?

The point is that, while not all villains are cut from the same cloth, they have to pass a certain threshold to be considered "villains." And I'm not just talking about small-time villains from an individual hero's rogue's gallery ("Caught me again, Flash! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSQ-h_2WGkw)"), but about anybody who rises to the level of gaining the Justice League's attention. Anybody at that level is capable of being a serious threat, and dealing with them permanently pretty much rises to the level of saving a country, a continent, or the world.

And do you think that any minor villain is satisfied being a second-string menace? What villain doesn't want to graduate to be on the same level as a Luthor, a Sinestro, a Joker? That's the dream! So they will plot, and scheme, and yes, even murder, to get to that point. And now you have more villains, more people who will keep on being a threat because comic book-universe justice is basically a revolving door. With very few exceptions, you really can't contain any of them. And while a few may only cause minor chaos, most cause serious peril, from natural disasters to major loss of wealth and destruction of property, to death, on a small or large scale. And if it saves even one life, probably more, isn't it worth it for a hero who is willing to kill to do so again?

Seriously, I can see how a kill-willing hero would be willing to make exceptions for individual, unique, "redeemable" villains. But the vast majority don't want redemption, they want to be villains. When everyone wants to be the next Lex Luthor, how do you justify killing only the first one?

[Psyren]

So Superman beats Toymaker, hm (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcDT1QoKjLQ)?

The point is that, while not all villains are cut from the same cloth, they have to pass a certain threshold to be considered "villains." And I'm not just talking about small-time villains from an individual hero's rogue's gallery ("Caught me again, Flash! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSQ-h_2WGkw)"), but about anybody who rises to the level of gaining the Justice League's attention. Anybody at that level is capable of being a serious threat, and dealing with them permanently pretty much rises to the level of saving a country, a continent, or the world.

As I mentioned in #136, just about any villain can be contrived to be a JLA-level threat with a wacky enough plot. But while Lex or Darkseid are regularly a pain/danger to the League, Toymaker taking them on is much more aberrant.

Also, come on, your own video proved my point. Wonder Woman got the lead out and whooped his ass without breaking a sweat. Turns out all you have to do is be mad and dodge the lasers, ooooooh. And I'm willing to bet his playtime rampage barely even hurt any muggles, much less killed them. Again, a pretty far cry from Lex and Joker.



And do you think that any minor villain is satisfied being a second-string menace? What villain doesn't want to graduate to be on the same level as a Luthor, a Sinestro, a Joker? That's the dream! So they will plot, and scheme, and yes, even murder, to get to that point.

Seriously, I can see how a kill-willing hero would be willing to make exceptions for individual, unique, "redeemable" villains. But the vast majority don't want redemption, they want to be villains. When everyone wants to be the next Lex Luthor, how do you justify killing only the first one?

Will they? Seems to me that if they had the nards they'd already have done it.

Yeah, you might potentially have a vacuum that the less capable fools try to fill. But again, if they were truly capable of that, they would have done it already. Try as they might, Penguin and Two-Face will never be on par with Joker. (Well, especially not when they're turning him into a "chaos elemental" or whatever.)

[Bitter]

Simply put, there is a certain "weight class" of villain beyond which redemption is impractical or foolish to expect. I would not expect Supes to want to throw the likes of Darkseid, Doomsday or Parallax in jail. Lex may theoretically be redeemable, but after a while I would start to weigh the innocents likely to die at his hands if left alive as being more significant to his own life, as he shows no signs of wanting to redeem himself at all. (And every time he has, it's turned out to be a ploy, impostor, or otherwise fleeting, and then he's off threatening innocent lives again the following morning.)


You mean like, say Loki, Norse god Mischief, Chaos and Evil for thousands of years? Who has been prophecised to bring about ragnarok?

Who has been a good guy for the past several years and without whom the entire universe would have been destroyed?

I mean hell, just look at your three examples. Darkied, Doomsday and Parallax have all been instrumental in saving the Universe/Earth at one time or another. If Supes had followed your logic it would have lead to the death and destruction of everyone.

[SparksMcGee]

Isn't Toymaker a pedophile? I can't think of him as a lesser evil.

[Devonix]

Isn't Toymaker a pedophile? I can't think of him as a lesser evil.

Depends on which toymaker you mean. Not only are there different ones in different continuities. There are multiple people using the name. Just like there are two doctor lights and multiple Parasites.

[Devonix]

There is a heroic parasite, toyman, and doctor light

[HardcoreD&Dgirl]

My thought is and always has been that to be a hero and have supiour abilities (be it training like the bat or god like like superman) you need to trust in the legal system even when it doesn't work. The reason is simple. You know your not perfect. If you decide to kill just once, then you are choosing who lives and who dies... imagine the weight of that, then imagine knowing that if your wrong it is few or none that can stop you...

If superman chooses who can be killed and who isn't 'bad enough' he has to be 100% sure he's right....because if he is ever wrong he is the worst criminal ever.

[Forum Explorer]

The superhero universe has always been really unrealistic with regards to it's legal system and the revolving door aspect of things. As well as the whole 'how society views and controls heroes'.

You want to see it done better? Go read Worm.

[Cheesegear]

Someone already posted the panel of Superman saying that killing people doesn't even work a page ago, since death isn't even an obstacle for some people. That's canon. With Superman himself doing the talking.

At least with jail-time, the Hero in question knows where people are. Keeping them locked up with an eye on, is not the Hero's job. That's a job for the prison system, and goes back to the Super-Warden idea that I was talking about, and why such a Super-Warden doesn't exist. Blaming cops on the beat for the state of the prison system is fail logic.

[Red Fel]

Bringing us back to the OP, I think this whole Superman killing Luthor debate raises a very intriguing hypothesis.

We debate the outcome of Superman killing Luthor, specifically whether it would result in an evil Superman, because it is both feasible and logical. It makes sense that someone would want to kill Luthor eventually, and it makes sense that Superman could do it if pushed.

I can't help but notice that, despite pages of debate on the subject of Superman killing Luthor, we haven't discussed anyone killing Doom. My hypothesis: The reason we haven't discussed it is that we don't see it happening. We can see people killing Luthor. Heck, that's been a plot line in several Superman media. But killing Doom... It just doesn't seem like an effective idea, or a good one.

Let us suppose that someone attempted to kill Doom. In all likelihood, you just killed a Doombot, not the real thing, and he will be after you with serious anger management issues as a result. Let us further assume, however, that you actually killed the real Doom, not a Doombot or magical simulacrum.

I'd like to take a moment to talk about a different comic book character. Black Mage, from 8-Bit Theater. Remember Black Mage? Remember when he died (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2004/02/12/episode-383-spinal-snap/), and where he went afterwards (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2004/02/24/episode-388-see-you-in-hell-monkey-boy/)? Yeah. It didn't (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2004/03/18/episode-396-hes-back/) stick (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2004/03/20/episode-397-portents/).

Now imagine a more competent, more cunning Black Mage, with more hubris and somehow, impossibly, more anger management issues. Also he has robots. Yes, we're talking about Doom now. I honestly don't see any situation in which killing Doom is a good idea.

And my hypothesis is that we've all been assuming that, consciously or otherwise. Hence why we fixate on Luthor's death instead of Doom's. It just makes more sense.

[Benthesquid]

Bringing us back to the OP, I think this whole Superman killing Luthor debate raises a very intriguing hypothesis.

We debate the outcome of Superman killing Luthor, specifically whether it would result in an evil Superman, because it is both feasible and logical. It makes sense that someone would want to kill Luthor eventually, and it makes sense that Superman could do it if pushed.

I can't help but notice that, despite pages of debate on the subject of Superman killing Luthor, we haven't discussed anyone killing Doom. My hypothesis: The reason we haven't discussed it is that we don't see it happening. We can see people killing Luthor. Heck, that's been a plot line in several Superman media. But killing Doom... It just doesn't seem like an effective idea, or a good one.

Let us suppose that someone attempted to kill Doom. In all likelihood, you just killed a Doombot, not the real thing, and he will be after you with serious anger management issues as a result. Let us further assume, however, that you actually killed the real Doom, not a Doombot or magical simulacrum.

I'd like to take a moment to talk about a different comic book character. Black Mage, from 8-Bit Theater. Remember Black Mage? Remember when he died (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2004/02/12/episode-383-spinal-snap/), and where he went afterwards (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2004/02/24/episode-388-see-you-in-hell-monkey-boy/)? Yeah. It didn't (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2004/03/18/episode-396-hes-back/) stick (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2004/03/20/episode-397-portents/).

Now imagine a more competent, more cunning Black Mage, with more hubris and somehow, impossibly, more anger management issues. Also he has robots. Yes, we're talking about Doom now. I honestly don't see any situation in which killing Doom is a good idea.

And my hypothesis is that we've all been assuming that, consciously or otherwise. Hence why we fixate on Luthor's death instead of Doom's. It just makes more sense.

I will say that Doom went to hell once- Reed dragged him out, on the assumption that he'd be running the place inside a year, and instead imprisoned him in a pocket dimension full of screens showing Doom's greatest failures (I think?) and planned to stay there more or less permanently to prevent his escape.

[GloatingSwine]

Let us suppose that someone attempted to kill Doom. In all likelihood, you just killed a Doombot, not the real thing, and he will be after you with serious anger management issues as a result. Let us further assume, however, that you actually killed the real Doom, not a Doombot or magical simulacrum.


You only assume you killed the real Doom.

It was a Doombot. It was always a Doombot.

In fact, maybe the real Doom died years ago and now there are only Doombots.

Nobody would be able to tell.

[Flickerdart]

In fact, maybe the real Doom died years ago and now there are only Doombots.
In fact, maybe the real Luthor died years ago and has been replaced by a Doombot.

[Red Fel]

In fact, maybe the real Luthor died years ago and has been replaced by a Doombot.

This is my new headcanon. Does your headcanon have a headcannon? Mine does.

[The Glyphstone]

This is my new headcanon. Does your headcanon have a headcannon? Mine does.

Over the years, every human being in the world has slowly but steadily been replaced by a Doombot.

Let's call it universe D-0044.

[Lord Raziere]

Over the years, every human being in the world has slowly but steadily been replaced by a Doombot.

Let's call it universe D-0044.

and now they're just constantly destroying each other, thinking that they're fulfilling their masters plans, when he really is already dead and now they continue, forever aimlessly doing the same role they always had, awaiting for the real Doom to someday let them know when it is time to take over the world.

But that day never comes. They grow uncertain. They soon investigate. They find out that they are all Doombots, that their master is no longer there. That humanity is no longer there. That they have been imitating them all this time so well that they had become them. and that now that they have an identity crisis. The Doombots soon all agree: they were too used to being the people they had been imitating now. So they continue being them. They know its all fake, so they make sure all the superhero battles are in fact just games they play to pass the time. Soon the Doombots see superhero work as a sport with various teams. and so do they pass the time like this for all eternity, playing their strange robotic games. Forever.

[Traab]

and now they're just constantly destroying each other, thinking that they're fulfilling their masters plans, when he really is already dead and now they continue, forever aimlessly doing the same role they always had, awaiting for the real Doom to someday let them know when it is time to take over the world.

But that day never comes. They grow uncertain. They soon investigate. They find out that they are all Doombots, that their master is no longer there. That humanity is no longer there. That they have been imitating them all this time so well that they had become them. and that now that they have an identity crisis. The Doombots soon all agree: they were too used to being the people they had been imitating now. So they continue being them. They know its all fake, so they make sure all the superhero battles are in fact just games they play to pass the time. Soon the Doombots see superhero work as a sport with various teams. and so do they pass the time like this for all eternity, playing their strange robotic games. Forever.

Mojo Jojo eventually discovers this reality and turns it into his newest reality show. His ratings shoot sky high, and he only has to pay the doombot fund a residual every year for the rights to broadcast it.

[Red Fel]

Mojo Jojo eventually discovers this reality and turns it into his newest reality show. His ratings shoot sky high, and he only has to pay the doombot fund a residual every year for the rights to broadcast it.

I assume you meant Mojo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mojo_%28comics%29), the ruler of Mojoworld, and not Mojo Jojo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_The_Powerpuff_Girls_characters#Mojo_Jojo), the monkey. Because, if the latter, that plan would never work.

Also, it would result in an awesome crossover.

[Traab]

Heh, yep, I dont even watch PPG so no clue why I got them confused.

[The Glyphstone]

And for bonus recursion, some of those Doombots have the assigned role of playing Doombots...

[Drascin]

Bringing us back to the OP, I think this whole Superman killing Luthor debate raises a very intriguing hypothesis.

We debate the outcome of Superman killing Luthor, specifically whether it would result in an evil Superman, because it is both feasible and logical. It makes sense that someone would want to kill Luthor eventually, and it makes sense that Superman could do it if pushed.

I can't help but notice that, despite pages of debate on the subject of Superman killing Luthor, we haven't discussed anyone killing Doom. My hypothesis: The reason we haven't discussed it is that we don't see it happening. We can see people killing Luthor. Heck, that's been a plot line in several Superman media. But killing Doom... It just doesn't seem like an effective idea, or a good one.

Let us suppose that someone attempted to kill Doom. In all likelihood, you just killed a Doombot, not the real thing, and he will be after you with serious anger management issues as a result. Let us further assume, however, that you actually killed the real Doom, not a Doombot or magical simulacrum.

I'd like to take a moment to talk about a different comic book character. Black Mage, from 8-Bit Theater. Remember Black Mage? Remember when he died (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2004/02/12/episode-383-spinal-snap/), and where he went afterwards (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2004/02/24/episode-388-see-you-in-hell-monkey-boy/)? Yeah. It didn't (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2004/03/18/episode-396-hes-back/) stick (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2004/03/20/episode-397-portents/).

Now imagine a more competent, more cunning Black Mage, with more hubris and somehow, impossibly, more anger management issues. Also he has robots. Yes, we're talking about Doom now. I honestly don't see any situation in which killing Doom is a good idea.

And my hypothesis is that we've all been assuming that, consciously or otherwise. Hence why we fixate on Luthor's death instead of Doom's. It just makes more sense.

It's basically down to the Doombot thing. We don't bother thinking about Doom dying because what would be the point? Chances are inside of three months another writer would come by and say "nope, just a doombot", no matter how hard you made sure it's the real Doom, and even if it was the real Doom there's a legion of Doombots doing the same thing out there anyway. You can't make a story about Doom dying because the very possibility of it mattering has been completely shortcircuited. You can make an interesting plot out of Luthor dying. You can't make an interesting plot out of Doom dying.

Double so because, well. Outside of Valeria Richards nobody really cares. I mean, Doom's still died a few times in various universes. Face melting, Sentry, Ben (yes, Ben as in the Thing), those have been some causes of Doom death. But it every case I have seen it was just a few panels and moved on. Some were just worfing Doom to show how big the new threat is, and some were about finally being fed up with him, but nobody really minded much. Supes killing Luthor forces him into a crisis. But there's not a lot of crisis to be had by Doom's opponents if they kill him unless we contrive the opponent to be, like, Spider-Man.

The important part of a character's death is always how it affects the characters that remain alive or the narrative. And killing Doom can often have trouble with doing either.

[Flickerdart]

Now here's a thought - let's say Doom kills Luthor, because everything is a Doombot so Doom only needs to win once while Luthor needs to win every time. How does Superman react? Surely letting this murderer go unpunished is unacceptable, but would he still be faced with the dilemma of "hey, Luthor is dead and a lot of problems got permanently solved, how about that?" Would Batman perhaps contrive Doom to bump off the League's nastier opponents without anyone's hands getting dirty?

On the other hand, if Doom dies, almost certainly nobody cares, so there's that. The Richardses go "woo" and move on with their lives.

[Traab]

Doom has diplomatic immunity. So superman is all "grrr!" And doom is all like, "/quotes lethal weapon 2 at superman" and in the end, we find out luthor cloned himself into a kryptonian body and had a mind transfer done just before doom killed him, so he is back and scarier than ever.

[Anteros]

Would Batman perhaps contrive Doom to bump off the League's nastier opponents without anyone's hands getting dirty?


None of the core members of the league would even consider something like that. Especially not Batman. Also, most of the League's nastier opponents would turn Doom into paste anyway.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Doom has diplomatic immunity. So superman is all "grrr!" And doom is all like, "/quotes lethal weapon 2 at superman" and in the end, we find out luthor cloned himself into a kryptonian body and had a mind transfer done just before doom killed him, so he is back and scarier than ever.

Thing is, diplomatic immunity can be revoked or ignored. Plus Superman is not usually overtly associated with any one government and thus doesn't have the same reprecussions if he brings Doom in. Cause Superman could start a motion somewhere to have Doom's diplomatic immunity revoked on the bounds he just killed an incredibly wealthy businessman, philanthropist, or possibly the POTUS.

[Zmeoaice]

None of the core members of the league would even consider something like that. Especially not Batman.

Well except maybe Wonder Woman

[Traab]

Thing is, diplomatic immunity can be revoked or ignored. Plus Superman is not usually overtly associated with any one government and thus doesn't have the same reprecussions if he brings Doom in. Cause Superman could start a motion somewhere to have Doom's diplomatic immunity revoked on the bounds he just killed an incredibly wealthy businessman, philanthropist, or possibly the POTUS.

True, but the thing is, it still makes for an incredibly thorny issue. Doom is a Head of State. Now, if Luthor is president in this version, then that would clearly be an act of war. Otherwise, if this luthor is just businessman luthor, yeah, MAYBE he could get his immunity revoked, keep in mind he isnt an ambassador, he is a head of state, but by that time he is back in latveria, ignoring all official requests to extradite himself and making it clear that any attempts to force the issue will be treated as acts of war. CAN you even try to extradite a head of state? And considering his disturbingly high level of scientific and magical knowledge, picking a fight with him is a bad idea from a national standpoint. It would quickly devolve into decades of bickering at the UN with little being accomplished and Doom doing as he pleases, as he tends to do anyways. You cant really effectively blockade or embargo a guy capable of dimensional travel and expect it to do anything.

Its possible the justice league might try something, but if it fails, which it probably would, this is doom after all, then that opens a massive can of worms. There is a REASON the fantastic four dont hat up and invade latveria to take down doom. They cant effectively attempt to overthrow the legal ruler of a foreign nation and expect to not become public enemy number 1 in the process. Literally every other national ruler would have to think to themselves, "What stops them from overthrowing ME if they dont like me?" Yeah... that way would end poorly.

[Red Fel]

Well except maybe Wonder Woman

This might be relevant.

http://41.media.tumblr.com/ddfa7054bbed976d4c3f07461b109cd7/tumblr_ms9pq3C5p01rvya9ro1_540.jpg
With respect to Doom's diplomatic immunity, if movies have taught me anything, the only way to nail him is if he violates his own country's laws. Otherwise, the most you can do is send him home. And since one of his country's laws is "I am the law," it's kind of hard to get him for that.

Because movies are a perfect reflection of international law, and all.

[Slayn82]

Its possible the justice league might try something, but if it fails, which it probably would, this is doom after all, then that opens a massive can of worms. There is a REASON the fantastic four dont hat up and invade latveria to take down doom. They cant effectively attempt to overthrow the legal ruler of a foreign nation and expect to not become public enemy number 1 in the process. Literally every other national ruler would have to think to themselves, "What stops them from overthrowing ME if they dont like me?" Yeah... that way would end poorly.

Well, the Fantastic Four, Avengers and a few other teams have invaded Latveria and kicked Doom a few times, usually to rescue some ally. And usually they don't have time to deal with Doom after the fight because he is a sore loser and activates the selfdestruct mechanism/overloads his machines trying to kill them, and it all ends with a massive explosion that the heroes barelly escape, and the false impression that Doom must be dead, because no-one could survive that, that nowadays gets a shrug and "ok, so he will be around soon".

And, while we are talking about overthrowing national rulers ending poorly, ask the X-Men about Genosha.

Also, whatever else you can say about Lex Luthor, his war against Superman is probably creating a massive amount of technical progress, jobs and private investment in the US. He probably had more than a few allies in the government and military, even before being president. Cadmus project is proof. To the overall public, he probably is much more popular than Bruce Wayne. He made massive donations to research on Cancer, he developed impressive energy storage technology, foots the bill on the development of new power sources, introduced advances on robotics and general computing derived from Brainiac and Kriptonian technology. And his weapons allow special forces to take on dangerous, super human individuals.

Meanwhile, Latveria has a few million people, and is the 9th richest country in Marvel world. All those robots and alien power sources, national focus on science, and convenient time travel really go ways into improving a country. Doom has already conquered the world once, but decided to retcon it out to keep the conflict that gives meaning to his own existance.

[Traab]

Well, the Fantastic Four, Avengers and a few other teams have invaded Latveria and kicked Doom a few times, usually to rescue some ally. And usually they don't have time to deal with Doom after the fight because he is a sore loser and activates the selfdestruct mechanism/overloads his machines trying to kill them, and it all ends with a massive explosion that the heroes barelly escape, and the false impression that Doom must be dead, because no-one could survive that, that nowadays gets a shrug and "ok, so he will be around soon".

And, while we are talking about overthrowing national rulers ending poorly, ask the X-Men about Genosha.

Also, whatever else you can say about Lex Luthor, his war against Superman is probably creating a massive amount of technical progress, jobs and private investment in the US. He probably had more than a few allies in the government and military, even before being president. Cadmus project is proof. To the overall public, he probably is much more popular than Bruce Wayne. He made massive donations to research on Cancer, he developed impressive energy storage technology, foots the bill on the development of new power sources, introduced advances on robotics and general computing derived from Brainiac and Kriptonian technology. And his weapons allow special forces to take on dangerous, super human individuals.

Meanwhile, Latveria has a few million people, and is the 9th richest country in Marvel world. All those robots and alien power sources, national focus on science, and convenient time travel really go ways into improving a country. Doom has already conquered the world once, but decided to retcon it out to keep the conflict that gives meaning to his own existance.

Yeah I know they have gone into latveria before, but as you said, its generally to save a comrade trapped there or some such thing, or its a clandestine mission with plausible deniability so they can avoid official trouble. They cant just officially run in to storm the castle and kidnap doom to bring him back to america for justice. Thats illegal on an international level so high that I cant even comprehend it. And what you said about latveria is why war is an unlikely outcome unless its president luthor who gets killed. Attacking latveria would cause so much death and destruction worldwide as to be insane.

[Avilan the Grey]

Besides, the whole thing about say Superman being "neutral" somehow isn't really, and have never been true. Of course it was that time when he got rid of his American passport, but in general he is very much an American.
At least he was raised there. WW has no real excuse to run around in the American flag with eagles on her bosom though.

...This is as close as I will go to discuss the politics of DC and Marvel characters, btw.

[TeChameleon]

Re. the whole superheroes killing people thing- the entire debate is completely meaningless, because eventually either editorial fiat or a fanboy/fangirl writer will drag whatever villain that snuffs it out of hell and back into murdering people or whatever, especially the big-name villains like Luthor and the Joker. Superman might not be allowed to know-know that in-universe, but he's definitely bright enough that he seems to have gotten the general idea.

With Doom vs. Luthor? Gotta say, despite Mr. Brown's amazing performance as Lex (check towards the end of this clip (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqNksmIXUUg) for some of the most amazing villainous gloating ever recorded), I've gotta say that my vote tends to fall with DOOM. As to why... eh, it's hard to quantify, exactly. There's two major things, for me; the first is that Doom has clearer goals. He wishes to make the world a better place, and, as he can objectively demonstrate (depending on the writer, of course), the best way to do that is to have him in charge of it. He also wants to put RIIIIICHAAAAAARDS! in his place, but that's usually more a side benefit than an ultimate goal. The second is... for lack of a better term, scale. To mangle a metaphor, Luthor is the scrappy, brainy crook-made-good in a crime drama. Doom is the tragic villain of a Wagnerian opera. Everything he does is writ large; he even speaks in capital letters (yes, this is canon. Don't ask). For me, that's a plus in the Doom column; for others, it might be a minus. It's all down to taste.

As far as feats go? Doom has always been somewhat more impressive in that department, at least in my books. Lex's supervillain creations tend to cap out at Metallo, who, while not exactly small potatoes, can't exactly throw down too easily with the likes of Molecule Man. Lex has the better armour, mostly due to DC tending to be a bit higher on the power scale for it's 'name' heroes, but I'd say that Doom is the better inventor, at least in terms of breadth of genius. I don't know of Lex creating anything comparable to the Doombots, anyhow.

Eh, no worries. It'd likely be a fun fight to watch.

[Hopeless]

Has anyone suggested Doom requesting the protection of the Justice League whilst visiting the US as a means of giving Luthor the bird in such a way that he can't resist doing something in reply?:smallamused:

Or even set things up so Luthor is blamed for something done during the trip which was all set up to keep the League busy whilst Doom got something important to his next scheme(s)?

Yes Doom has done stuff like that! (Avenger's Assemble had an episode on that!):smallsmile:

It also helps if Richards isn't available to interfere though!

Now how would Richards react to Luthor and would he intervene if he figured out it was all a ploy to remove Luthor from a position that threatens everybody and not just Doom's attempt to take over the world?

[Drascin]

With Doom vs. Luthor? Gotta say, despite Mr. Brown's amazing performance as Lex (check towards the end of this clip (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqNksmIXUUg) for some of the most amazing villainous gloating ever recorded), I've gotta say that my vote tends to fall with DOOM. As to why... eh, it's hard to quantify, exactly. There's two major things, for me; the first is that Doom has clearer goals. He wishes to make the world a better place, and, as he can objectively demonstrate (depending on the writer, of course), the best way to do that is to have him in charge of it. He also wants to put RIIIIICHAAAAAARDS! in his place, but that's usually more a side benefit than an ultimate goal.


I kinda think you have that backwards, in my opinion. Doom wanting to make the world a better place depends on the run. Sometimes he does, sometimes he says he does but it's all bull****, sometimes (most often, by my reckoning) he doesn't give a crap about anyone outside of Latveria, sometimes he barely gives a crap about pepople in Latveria and just is an iron fist dictator. But he practically always wants to screw with RICHARDS. That is the more important character trait.

Doom is petty. Doom is really, REALLY petty. His is a pettiness coated in ham and drama and a self-deluding veneer of honor to legitimize it to himself - that's sort of the point.

[Lord Raziere]

Now how would Richards react to Luthor and would he intervene if he figured out it was all a ploy to remove Luthor from a position that threatens everybody and not just Doom's attempt to take over the world?

1. react to Luthor? Probably say: "Oh no. ANOTHER one."

2.React to Dooms plan?.....clench his fists together and yell "DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!" Khan style? um as for "intervene": probably? heroes sometimes tend to be a little paranoid when masterminds are concerned, especially the smart heroes. He'd try to intervene just to make sure that Doom isn't up to something anyways. Mostly because when villains say they aren't up to anything while attempting a big project, they are usually up to something.

[Bitter]

I kinda think you have that backwards, in my opinion. Doom wanting to make the world a better place depends on the run. Sometimes he does, sometimes he says he does but it's all bull****, sometimes (most often, by my reckoning) he doesn't give a crap about anyone outside of Latveria, sometimes he barely gives a crap about pepople in Latveria and just is an iron fist dictator. But he practically always wants to screw with RICHARDS. That is the more important character trait.

Doom is petty. Doom is really, REALLY petty. His is a pettiness coated in ham and drama and a self-deluding veneer of honor to legitimize it to himself - that's sort of the point.

Doom always wants to make the world a better place. It's just that he is always of the opinion that the world is a better place with Doom large and in charge.

[Red Fel]

1. react to Luthor? Probably say: "Oh no. ANOTHER one."

2.React to Dooms plan?.....clench his fists together and yell "DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!" Khan style? um as for "intervene": probably? heroes sometimes tend to be a little paranoid when masterminds are concerned, especially the smart heroes. He'd try to intervene just to make sure that Doom isn't up to something anyways. Mostly because when villains say they aren't up to anything while attempting a big project, they are usually up to something.

How would Richards react to anything? One of his defining traits is the fact that his elastic powers enable him to do something otherwise anatomically impossible with his head and a certain other part of his anatomy, and he keeps the former shoved up the latter with astonishing regularity. Even where Doom is concerned. Richards is so utterly full of himself and his own brilliance as to be completely oblivious as to what's happening around him. Frankly, if Doom weren't so hammy about it - not that I don't love Doom's ham and cheese sandwich, mind you - I'd consider him almost justified in his utter loathing for a mind that is simultaneously one of the most profoundly brilliant and profoundly stupid in the Marvel universe.

Richards' likely reaction to Luthor, assuming that Richards were even aware of Luthor to begin with, would probably be geniality. They're both brilliant minds and highly accomplished scientists, and Richards has been known to have a blind eye when up-and-coming scientists enter the scene. (Has anyone else noticed that they're almost always evil? Because he hasn't.)

As for if it were part of a ploy to remove Luthor? I'm guessing Richards would suffer some of his famous paralysis by analysis. The writers are famous for proclaiming how the greatest minds in the Marvel universe (e.g. Richards) are unable to resolve a given situation, simply to explain why they haven't. (See: Reed Richards is Useless (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ReedRichardsIsUseless), mentioned upthread.) The man's brain has been utterly ineffectual almost as many times as it has saved the world. In this case, I would expect to see page after page of him staring just off-panel, or wrinkling his forehead over some lab equipment, with thought bubbles saying things like, "But what can I do? Should I intervene? Can I support the lesser of two evils?"

And then the matter would neatly resolve itself via some sort of multiversal disruption within a few days or weeks. And Richards would take credit.

[Lord Raziere]

Wow, really? that is freaking boring. by that metric, I'm pretty sure I could write something better than what you say would actually happen.

[HandofShadows]

As for if it were part of a ploy to remove Luthor? I'm guessing Richards would suffer some of his famous paralysis by analysis. The writers are famous for proclaiming how the greatest minds in the Marvel universe (e.g. Richards) are unable to resolve a given situation, simply to explain why they haven't. (See: Reed Richards is Useless (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ReedRichardsIsUseless), mentioned upthread.) The man's brain has been utterly ineffectual almost as many times as it has saved the world. In this case, I would expect to see page after page of him staring just off-panel, or wrinkling his forehead over some lab equipment, with thought bubbles saying things like, "But what can I do? Should I intervene? Can I support the lesser of two evils?"


The fact that you point to the Reed Richards is useless TV Trope here means you really don't understand the trope. The trope is not about Reed Richards or any other brain with all these fantastic devices that could reshape the world. It's about how these characters are basically not ALLOWED by the writers to reshape the world.

[Bitter]

Yeah, the issue is that writers generally want superhero comics to be somewhat relatable to the real world. Sure there are superheroes and gods and laser guns, but there are still people. People still eat and drink and die and travel in cars and pay for things with money and live in buildings and the world is generally recognisable. You start following powers to their logical conclusion and pretty soon the world is so drastically different from reality that it is hard to see the similarities at all.

[Red Fel]

The fact that you point to the Reed Richards is useless TV Trope here means you really don't understand the trope. The trope is not about Reed Richards or any other brain with all these fantastic devices that could reshape the world. It's about how these characters are basically not ALLOWED by the writers to reshape the world.

What I'm using it to illustrate is the fact that, for narrative convenience, many situations have been presented where a brain like Richards is, despite his vast intellect, unable to act. See motivation #2, "To ensure that there's some level of drama in the story." If the point of the story is that there is a plot-and-counterplot between Doom and Luthor, you can be sure that Richards - despite his vast intellect - will be paralyzed with anxiety, unable to decide between courses of action.

That's the point. Richards is one of the greatest minds in the Marvel world, canonically. If he became aware of plotting between Luthor and Doom, he could theoretically play one off of the other and trump them both. That is, of course, precisely why he can't, and won't.

[TeChameleon]

... the thing is, Reed Richards is the greatest mind in the Marvel Universe in the applied sciences, something even the writers tend to forget (rather like Cyclops' canonical power of superhuman ability at calculating spacial geometry, or Angel's telescopic vision). Just because you can make a machine that turns chalk to cheese after doodling for five minutes doesn't mean you have the slightest understanding of human nature. And Reed Richards basically embodies that trope- he is the classic absent-minded scientist, brilliant in his laboratory and research, slightly-to-incredibly-useless outside those. Drop him on an alien world? He'll have sorted out the local biochemistry and any physics oddities within a half-hour, then created some kind of widget to allow him to solve the most obvious problem they have (almost always some kind of evil dictator or creature) and go home. Plonk him down in a fancy cocktail party, and he'll have offended half the guests, alienated the other half, accidentally started a couple of minor wars, made an offhand comment or two that utterly ruined some poor sod's life's work, and bored whatever poor schmoe he's managed to corner half to death.

So yeah... Richards is a genius, but he's not a people person. Plotting and scheming are (usually) not really his thing.

One other point I forgot to mention in my previous post- I tend to also favour DOOM for the entirely subjective reason of design. I'd consider the 'classic Doom' look to be one of master designer Jack Kirby's greatest designs, vs. Luthor's 'bald guy in suit'.

And as a random aside, as far as the Luthor-intelligence-vs.-Doom-intelligence goes, I'd consider Luthor the better engineer, while Doom is the better scientist. Luthor's various doohickeys tend to work to spec, and have tolerances rather higher than most of Doom's work, while Doom is a complete polymath, doing groundbreaking work in robotics, artificial intelligence, material sciences, chemistry, neurology, exotic physics, etc. ad infinitum ad nauseum. Essentially, Luthor's a blaster wizard vs. Doom's Batman wizard.

[Psyren]

Doom has diplomatic immunity. So superman is all "grrr!" And doom is all like, "/quotes lethal weapon 2 at superman" and in the end, we find out luthor cloned himself into a kryptonian body and had a mind transfer done just before doom killed him, so he is back and scarier than ever.

If Luthor could have done this, why the hell wouldn't he have done so already? (And before you answer with "he did in issue XYZ," why didn't he do it in such a way that was lasting?)

And don't feed me any lines about how he wants to win on his own - he's had no qualms about stealing Supes' powers in the past, or even just relying on a chunk of rock even in the shower/bed to protect himself.


None of the core members of the league would even consider something like that. Especially not Batman. Also, most of the League's nastier opponents would turn Doom into paste anyway.

I have to say I agree (though in reality they'd be pasting a doombot of course.) After all, the major big bads of the League are folks who are not only troublesome to Superman, but to him WITH his entourage.

Except Luthor of course, because plot armor contrivance status quo and lol.

[Bitter]

... the thing is, Reed Richards is the greatest mind in the Marvel Universe in the applied sciences, something even the writers tend to forget (rather like Cyclops' canonical power of superhuman ability at calculating spacial geometry, or Angel's telescopic vision). Just because you can make a machine that turns chalk to cheese after doodling for five minutes doesn't mean you have the slightest understanding of human nature. And Reed Richards basically embodies that trope- he is the classic absent-minded scientist, brilliant in his laboratory and research, slightly-to-incredibly-useless outside those. Drop him on an alien world? He'll have sorted out the local biochemistry and any physics oddities within a half-hour, then created some kind of widget to allow him to solve the most obvious problem they have (almost always some kind of evil dictator or creature) and go home. Plonk him down in a fancy cocktail party, and he'll have offended half the guests, alienated the other half, accidentally started a couple of minor wars, made an offhand comment or two that utterly ruined some poor sod's life's work, and bored whatever poor schmoe he's managed to corner half to death.

So yeah... Richards is a genius, but he's not a people person. Plotting and scheming are (usually) not really his thing.

http://i.imgur.com/hWzgVC4.jpg

I feel this is just being bought up because Reed Richards is a really clever scientist and you feel it should be assumed that he's like this rather than it actually being what he's like.

The last major Fantastic Four arc of the modern era (Hickman's run) set Reed up as a good family man who cared about others and in fact differed from practically every other Reed in the universe in this regard, being the only one who had a father (and thus learnt the lessons needed to become a good man and father himself) and who due to this was one of those who unlike the members of the Council of Reeds didn't give up his own chance at raisng and connecting with his family.

I can't really think of any notable instances of him being the way you describe.

Besides, all of these guys think Reed is just swell:

http://i.imgur.com/lF8jwIB.jpg

[Psyren]

Caring about your family doesn't necessarily make you a people person though, any more than it necessarily makes you a good person.

Also, could you like, summarize what that first one is showing? Even zooming in I found those bubbles extremely difficult to read.

[Bitter]

Caring about your family doesn't necessarily make you a people person though, any more than it necessarily makes you a good person.

"And Reed Richards basically embodies that trope- he is the classic absent-minded scientist, brilliant in his laboratory and research, slightly-to-incredibly-useless outside those."

It's hard to say he's an absent minded scientist who's useless outside of science if he's a conscientious family man


Also, could you like, summarize what that first one is showing? Even zooming in I found those bubbles extremely difficult to read.

Ben and Reed watching some boxing and drinking some brews. Ben asks if if he doesn't have to build some anti-doomsday thing or save the world, Reed says he's good and they chill and watch the fight.

[Flickerdart]

To me, the comic doesn't really prove that Reed Richards is personable. If anything, it's the opposite - I see a man who knows he's an arse and is consciously reigning it in while he's watching TV with his friends by not saying very much at all.

[Traab]

If Luthor could have done this, why the hell wouldn't he have done so already? (And before you answer with "he did in issue XYZ," why didn't he do it in such a way that was lasting?)

And don't feed me any lines about how he wants to win on his own - he's had no qualms about stealing Supes' powers in the past, or even just relying on a chunk of rock even in the shower/bed to protect himself.



I have to say I agree (though in reality they'd be pasting a doombot of course.) After all, the major big bads of the League are folks who are not only troublesome to Superman, but to him WITH his entourage.

Except Luthor of course, because plot armor contrivance status quo and lol.

Honestly, I made it up based on the "its always a doombot!" angle. I wanted something absourd to throw out there. Anyways, I can almost picture it happening. He watched too much star wars and came up with a plan where he could actually say, "Strike me down and I shall become more powerful than you can imagine!" He has a secret clone body in storage waiting to have his memories and personality downloaded into it before it gets activated.

Also, for the people talking about reed, there is always https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=JN.qRZ6WC53eOQ8wyrFSKomsg&pid=15.1&P=0

[Psyren]

Honestly, I made it up based on the "its always a doombot!" angle. I wanted something absourd to throw out there. Anyways, I can almost picture it happening. He watched too much star wars and came up with a plan where he could actually say, "Strike me down and I shall become more powerful than you can imagine!" He has a secret clone body in storage waiting to have his memories and personality downloaded into it before it gets activated.

I just think it's silly to have a contingency plan that makes you better in every way, yet not just use it. Especially when it hinges on the guy who never kills anyone deciding to kill you. :smalltongue:


Also, for the people talking about reed, there is always https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=JN.qRZ6WC53eOQ8wyrFSKomsg&pid=15.1&P=0

And now I know which Reed Stephen Colbert used for his Professor Impossible portrayal on Venture Brothers :smallbiggrin:

[TeChameleon]

*shrug*

It's been some time since I read any Fantastic Four, but Reed has never (to my memory)... er, 616 Reed, anyhow... been portrayed as a brilliant schemer and manipulator. It was always more 'I pulled this deus est machina out of my rubbery backside, now watch as our problem dissolves in a shower of pretty lights!' than 'hah, you simple fools, you played right into my hands!'

As a random aside, did the Captain Britain Corps ever do anything about the Council of Crosstime Kangs... er, Reeds?

And I never said that Reed was a bad person (except maybe when making psychotic cyborg clones of Thor for no good reason), just that his understanding of human nature has always seemed to be a bit clinical- being a brilliant sociologist doesn't make you a master con-man, for example. Supergenius yes, master manipulator not so much. Also, I said 'slightly to completely useless'- he's a conscientious family man, sure, but I'm not sure he's going to win 'father of the year' after some of the stuff he's pulled on Franklin in the name of 'SCIENCE!' So I'd file that under 'slightly useless'- he's definitely not as brilliant a father as he is scientist.

Anyways, Doom vs. Luthor anyone?

... and Doom vs. a lot of Superman's non-cosmic enemies would be so one-sided (in Doom's favour) it'd be genuinely funny. Parasite? Please. Doom's been pulling the whole power-stealing schtick for nearly fifty years. Poor old Rudy would be stretched out on a lab table before he could blink twice. Metallo? A killer cyborg. How original. Yawn. Bizarro? Yay, a powerful new minion with a pathetically weak will. Can you say 'hypnosis'? Toyman? Uh... you aren't serious, are you? And so forth.

[lord_khaine]

And I never said that Reed was a bad person (except maybe when making psychotic cyborg clones of Thor for no good reason), just that his understanding of human nature has always seemed to be a bit clinical- being a brilliant sociologist doesn't make you a master con-man, for example. Supergenius yes, master manipulator not so much. Also, I said 'slightly to completely useless'- he's a conscientious family man, sure, but I'm not sure he's going to win 'father of the year' after some of the stuff he's pulled on Franklin in the name of 'SCIENCE!' So I'd file that under 'slightly useless'- he's definitely not as brilliant a father as he is scientist.


I kinda see that as civil war induced brain damage..


... and Doom vs. a lot of Superman's non-cosmic enemies would be so one-sided (in Doom's favour) it'd be genuinely funny. Parasite? Please. Doom's been pulling the whole power-stealing schtick for nearly fifty years. Poor old Rudy would be stretched out on a lab table before he could blink twice. Metallo? A killer cyborg. How original. Yawn. Bizarro? Yay, a powerful new minion with a pathetically weak will. Can you say 'hypnosis'? Toyman? Uh... you aren't serious, are you? And so forth.

Well.. Parasite is kinda screwed when his main ability relies on touch when not fighting Superman, and Doom wears full body armor. And Metallos main stick is having a kryptonite heart that Doom would ignore.
Bizarro on the other hand would have Doom's head before he could blink, he can be pretty ruthless, and with all of Supermans powers Doom will si9mply not get a chance to do anything

[Traab]

I just think it's silly to have a contingency plan that makes you better in every way, yet not just use it. Especially when it hinges on the guy who never kills anyone deciding to kill you. :smalltongue:



And now I know which Reed Stephen Colbert used for his Professor Impossible portrayal on Venture Brothers :smallbiggrin:

Why waste the effort of transferring his consciousness to a clone when he is doing pretty well as he is? Its always smart to hold back a trump card till you really need it. This way he is always confidant of survival should one of his plans finally make superman snap, and in turn, snap him like a wet rice cracker. One day it happens, then a month later Luthorman appears, grinding away at supermans guilt over murdering someone, while grinding away at his face with his new kryptonian powers. It would be the ultimate trap for superman. He is morally destroyed by having killed lex, legally he is in massive trouble as the government would be greatly ticked that he killed an upstanding businessman with as many connections as lex has, his reputation is in tatters as he doesnt have the excuse of darkseid mind control as to why he attacked this time. And now Lex is back, and this time he has kryptonian powers in addition to his previous resources.

[Psyren]

Bizarro on the other hand would have Doom's head before he could blink, he can be pretty ruthless, and with all of Supermans powers Doom will si9mply not get a chance to do anything

Isn't Bizarro weak to the metal that his cloning machine was made from? Seems the kind of thing Doom could suss out and exploit, once the first few Doombots got trashed.


Why waste the effort of transferring his consciousness to a clone when he is doing pretty well as he is? Its always smart to hold back a trump card till you really need it. This way he is always confidant of survival should one of his plans finally make superman snap, and in turn, snap him like a wet rice cracker. One day it happens, then a month later Luthorman appears, grinding away at supermans guilt over murdering someone, while grinding away at his face with his new kryptonian powers. It would be the ultimate trap for superman. He is morally destroyed by having killed lex, legally he is in massive trouble as the government would be greatly ticked that he killed an upstanding businessman with as many connections as lex has, his reputation is in tatters as he doesnt have the excuse of darkseid mind control as to why he attacked this time. And now Lex is back, and this time he has kryptonian powers in addition to his previous resources.

Well by that logic, why should he bother with stealing Supes powers, or using power armor, or anything else he's actively done to go toe-to-toe with Supes physically if he's perfectly okay being a muggle? I just don't see Lex being able to sit on something like this, particularly never having tested it.

Speaking of not testing it, there's a dozen ways this could backfire. The clone could be one of the ones that degenerates quickly for instance, and never having used it he's unaware of this design flaw. Or its legal access to his resources after he dies could be up in the air.

[Traab]

Isn't Bizarro weak to the metal that his cloning machine was made from? Seems the kind of thing Doom could suss out and exploit, once the first few Doombots got trashed.



Well by that logic, why should he bother with stealing Supes powers, or using power armor, or anything else he's actively done to go toe-to-toe with Supes physically if he's perfectly okay being a muggle? I just don't see Lex being able to sit on something like this, particularly never having tested it.

Speaking of not testing it, there's a dozen ways this could backfire. The clone could be one of the ones that degenerates quickly for instance, and never having used it he's unaware of this design flaw. Or its legal access to his resources after he dies could be up in the air.

As for legal beagles, its easily within his capabilities to make a new legal identity for his clone and name it in his will to inherit everything. Not too mention the mind games he could play with the league over the question of him being lex or someone else. Yes there are issues with clones, but considering this isnt a rush job, he has plenty of chances to fiddle with and test his methods, or at worst, produce a series of identical clone bodies if degradation is something he has to worry about. Now, as for his power armors and such, he is still human when he is doing those things, he is still lex luthor, the original. I could see him not wanting to clone himself into the kryptonian body because it would mean accepting that a human cant beat superman, which i think in at least one continuity was a part of his motivation. But also realizing that one day it may be needed if things go badly wrong. Like I said, it would be a trump he keeps back just in case he finds himself facing an enemy he cant defeat as he currently is. One that has no problem with killing him.

[Devonix]

Anyone find it odd that While other characters are constantly reverted back and retconned back to their original versions while Lex instead goes back to his far newer version. The businessman.

[Traab]

Businessman lex is the only lex I have ever known. Im not a dc comic reader really, most movies and cartoons I have watched have lex be a businessman, sometimes a tony stark style inventor as well as a ceo setup, but lexcorp is always there in some form or another, and he is always wheeling and dealing from the big chair.

[BWR]

Anyone find it odd that While other characters are constantly reverted back and retconned back to their original versions while Lex instead goes back to his far newer version. The businessman.

Sometimes reimaginings are just more appealing than the original. I'm sure if we put our minds to it we could think of at least a dozen more people in the same position.

[Psyren]

Off the top of my head, Green Lantern is one where the reimagining (post-Alan Scott) stuck. Phoenix was so popular it pretty much took over any other identity Jean had previously. Non-blue Beast is a memory. Sue Storm didn't always have Force Fields - her only power used to literally be "fade to the background while the men handle it" :smallbiggrin:

Was Psylocke always a ninja?

[Traab]

Off the top of my head, Green Lantern is one where the reimagining (post-Alan Scott) stuck. Phoenix was so popular it pretty much took over any other identity Jean had previously. Non-blue Beast is a memory. Sue Storm didn't always have Force Fields - her only power used to literally be "fade to the background while the men handle it" :smallbiggrin:

Was Psylocke always a ninja?

I think her becoming a ninja was after the hand kidnapped her and shoved her mind into another body or some such thing. Not sure, it was before my time. That may have just been to justify switching her from british to asian or something at some point. As for Sue, oh god, The pic I linked had others, including her spending an entire issue trying to find the right brand of perfume to make her invisible to dogs. Because they could always locate her by scent when she tried to sneak by. She was a brain dead ditz, constantly getting nearly run over by cars because she forgot she was invisible while crossing a street, or trying to turn invisible WHEN PEOPLE ARE HOLDING ONTO HER.

[comicshorse]

I think her becoming a ninja was after the hand kidnapped her and shoved her mind into another body or some such thing. Not sure, it was before my time.

That's pretty much it.
I do like the re-imagining of the Penguin, he works much better as ruthless, hands off crime lord than silly, themed villain with novelty umbrella's

[Red Fel]

Sometimes reimaginings are just more appealing than the original. I'm sure if we put our minds to it we could think of at least a dozen more people in the same position.

I have to give DC some credit, here; a lot of the best reimaginings in comics have come from DC, in my experience. Two of my favorites, interestingly enough, are Batman villains.


I do like the re-imagining of the Penguin, he works much better as ruthless, hands off crime lord than silly, themed villain with novelty umbrella's

This character, but not this particular reimagining, is one of them. My favorite Penguin is the success story - the one where he is (mostly) rehabilitated, running a restaurant for the criminal underworld. The place where the elite meet to plot. He's living the dream; he's running a legitimate business, he has elegance and reputation, and he is profiting from his underworld connections. Best of all, he did the one thing that even Batman can't do - he turned his life around. Unlike most of the Dark Knight's rogues gallery, Oswald isn't crazy; angry, yes, and certainly envious to a level that has been obsessive in the past, but he's not an eco-terrorist like Ivy, a dissociated personality like Dent, or a complete whackjob like the Clown Prince of Crime. He's just awkward, angry, and covetous. And in this particular reimagining, he's still awkward and covetous, but he's otherwise successful and legitimate. Batman periodically "checks in" on him, but he keeps his hands more or less clean. And it's gratifying to know that even in a setting as dark and disheartening as Gotham, somebody can get a happy ending. After a fashion.

My other favorite reimagining is Mr. Freeze, and is a direct result of Batman: The Animated Series. Previously, Freeze was a nutjob with an ice beam and a bunch of cold-related puns. After TAS got ahold of him, however, he became a truly tragic figure - imprisoned inside a climate-controlled suit for his own survival, committing crimes to acquire the wealth necessary to treat his frozen wife (and to get revenge for his own condition), and slowly losing any emotion whatsoever (except love for his wife, the one thing that endures). Perhaps most tragic is that he's shown to be immortal (see, for example, Batman Beyond); his suffering will endure the ages.

Slightly back on topic, if I recall correctly, Luthor was originally shown to be, not a businessman (as they were typically the enemy for underdog superheroes), but a scientist. If memory serves, one of his earliest encounters with Superman was when, out of gratitude, he attempted to create a formula that would render Superman immune to the harmful effects of Kryptonite. When a lab fire broke out, Supes used his super breath (aka Plot Power #17) to extinguish the flames, but in doing so blew the fumes back onto Luthor, rendering him bald and creating a spiteful nemesis in the process.

So, yeah. Budding chemist. Not inventor, not businessman, not Evil Steve Jobs, just guy with some beakers.

I think his current reimagining is infinitely more satisfying.

[Traab]

I think that was a superboy title where that happened. A sort of smallville type setup where clark was already a hero as a teen, messed up at times because, well, he is a teen. And lex was a fanboy of his too. Found it (http://www.cracked.com/article_19799_5-creepy-superhero-origin-stories-movies-wisely-left-out.html)

[Bitter]

To me, the comic doesn't really prove that Reed Richards is personable. If anything, it's the opposite - I see a man who knows he's an arse and is consciously reigning it in while he's watching TV with his friends by not saying very much at all.

You're seeing what you want because you're already biased in that direction. Nothing there actually supports such a reading.

[Avilan the Grey]

Anyone find it odd that While other characters are constantly reverted back and retconned back to their original versions while Lex instead goes back to his far newer version. The businessman.

Huh, as stated above, to me he has always been the business man. I stopped reading Supes regularly around 85 and permanently after the Red / Blue superman crapfest.
But I only remember Lex as a businessman.

[TeChameleon]

Huh, as stated above, to me he has always been the business man. I stopped reading Supes regularly around 85 and permanently after the Red / Blue superman crapfest.
But I only remember Lex as a businessman.

Apparently when John Byrne is on his game, the man is on his game. As far as my admittedly fuzzy memory goes, up until Crisis on Infinite Earths, Lex was a (wanted) criminal mad scientist. Lots of super-science, but no political clout or billions. Along comes Byrne's Man of Steel reimagining, and all of a sudden we've always been at war with Eastasia had billionaire CEO Lex.

But yeah. Some reimaginings are better than others. Electric Superman, (more?) feral Wolverine, 'I wish I was on Charlie's Angels' white jumpsuit Wonder Woman, FrankenCastle Punisher, Angel Punisher, 'I turn my body parts into random weapons and am suddenly an alien for no readily explicable reason' Warrior Guy Gardner... hoo boy. Then again, a lot of comic book stupid can be labelled as either 'dear Lord, the 90s' or 'WOW, people did a lot of drugs in the 60s'. Oh, and Superboy Prime. Blargh.

As far as Doom vs. Bizarro, I suppose it depends on which version of Bizarro you're talking about. There were at least a few versions that were... rather lacking in the self-motivation department, and all of them are pretty stone-skulled-stupid. As long as Bizarro doesn't have a pre-existing hatred of olive-drab cowls and capes or soemthing, Doom should be able to approach him without getting summarily murdered.

[Avilan the Grey]

Apparently when John Byrne is on his game, the man is on his game. As far as my admittedly fuzzy memory goes, up until Crisis on Infinite Earths, Lex was a (wanted) criminal mad scientist. Lots of super-science, but no political clout or billions. Along comes Byrne's Man of Steel reimagining, and all of a sudden we've always been at war with Eastasia had billionaire CEO Lex.

Well to be fair I was fairly young then. I know he was a "mad scientist" but he wore a business suit a lot and talked a lot like an Evil Corporate Guy (tm) in comics do.
That he didn't have LexCorp officially is another matter. This is Lex from the 60's and 50's respectively:

http://www.comics101.com/comics101//images/view.php?src=../news/Comics%20101/54/jokerluthor.jpg&w=
http://www.comics101.com/archives/comics101/images/2003/sep24/50sluthor.jpg

[lord_khaine]

As far as Doom vs. Bizarro, I suppose it depends on which version of Bizarro you're talking about. There were at least a few versions that were... rather lacking in the self-motivation department, and all of them are pretty stone-skulled-stupid. As long as Bizarro doesn't have a pre-existing hatred of olive-drab cowls and capes or soemthing, Doom should be able to approach him without getting summarily murdered.

Well.. as i recall the original one came from Bizaro world, and were annoyed at Superman for being a bad copy.

So i imagine he would not do Doom a favor by randomly destroying all of the Dooms but one,

[Zaydos]

Well.. as i recall the original one came from Bizaro world, and were annoyed at Superman for being a bad copy.

So i imagine he would not do Doom a favor by randomly destroying all of the Dooms but one,

That's actually one of the few Superman comics I have read (and of the collection of best Silver Age Superman comics I read it in only it and the one which introduced Braniac were worth reading). In it Bizarro was made from a faulty duplication ray, the Bizarro World stuff came later.

[Raimun]

Seriously, Doom takes this. Let's take a look at their standard settings:

Doom: Intelligent, rich, political power, wears power armor ALWAYS, master magician, will of iron, excellent fighter, doombots, (can actually change bodies with people) and who knows what else. Doom always surprises us when we think: "Nobody could survive that!" Batman is a naive fool compared to Doom and his contingencies. Doom is alive because no hero could finish him.

Lex: Intelligent, rich, some political power*, wears power armor some times and that's it. Oh and he's also bald. Lex is alive because Superman knows mercy.

Now, you could go all: "Lex is smart and has tactics!" but Doom has at least an equal intelligence (if he's not superior to Lex, which is likely) and he does possess more options and resources. Like :xykon: said, there is a level of power no tactics can succeed... but what if your opponent has power and formidable tactics?

*Lex was the president in one story arc, right? Kind of like Norman Orborn (Green Goblin) was the director of SHIELD (renamed HAMMER) and the leader of the Avengers during Dark Reign.

Edit: Also, Doom is way cooler. That has got to count.