PDA

View Full Version : Optimization Outdoing Quarterstaff+Shield



Torched Forever
2015-04-05, 03:48 PM
While glancing at the weapons section I noticed something strange, a weapon that if used right could outdo the infamous Quarterstaff + Shield build. The weapon I noticed was the lance. It is an obvious choice for a horse mounted character but has seemingly little use beyond that. However, if dual wielded the lance has the potential for some frighteningly high damage. Upon realizing this I thought back to the crazy Polearm Master abusing build that had similarly high damage potential. I decided to make a level 4 and level 5 comparison of the two (the lance build requires at least level four to be worthwhile)
NOTE: This assumes the Lancer is mounted

The Builds (level 4)
Stout Halfling Level 4 Fighter
Str 14(+2)
Con 16(+3)
HP: 40 (10+3 + 3(6+3))
AC: 17 (Chainmail + Dual Wielder)
Fighting Style: Two Weapon Fighting
Action Surge
Subclass: Battle Master (Any 3 Maneuvers)
ASI: Dual Wielder

Damage Per Turn
Action: 1d12 + 2 (Average 8.5)
Bonus Action: 1d12 + 2 (Average 8.5)
Total: 6 to 28 (Average 17)

Nova (Once per Long Rest)
Action: 8.5
Bonus Action: 8.5
Surge Action: 8.5
Maneuvers on each Attack: 13.5 (3 x 1d8)
Total: 39 Average
Variant Human Level 2 Fighter Level 2 Paladin
Str: 16 (+3)
Con: 16 (+3)
HP: 40 (10+3 + 3(6+3))
AC: 19 (Chainmail + Shield + Protection)
Feat: Polearm Master
Fighting Style: Dueling
Action Surge
Fighting Style: Protection
Casting
Divine Smite

Damage Per Turn
Action: 1d6 + 3 + 2 (Average 8.5)
Bonus Action: 1d4 + 3 + 2 (Average 7.5)
Total: 12 to 20 (Average 16)

Nova (Once per Long Rest)
Action: 8.5
Bonus Action: 7.5
Surge Action: 8.5
Smites on 2 Attacks: 18 (2 x 2d8)
Total: 42.5
Comparison
QS
+2 AC
+3.5 Nova
+Lay on Hands
+Casting
Lancer
+1 DPR
+Better Crit
+Halfling
+Maneuvers can be split up more
+Maneuver Effects

The Builds (level 5)
Stout Halfling Level 5 Fighter
Str 14(+2)
Con 16(+3)
HP: 49 (10+3 + 4(6+3))
AC: 17 (Chainmail + Dual Wielder)
Fighting Style: Two Weapon Fighting
Action Surge
Subclass: Battle Master (Any 3 Maneuvers)
ASI: Dual Wielder
Extra Attack

Damage Per Turn
Action: 2 x (1d12 + 2) (Average 17)
Bonus Action: 1d12 + 2 (Average 8.5)
Total: 9 to 42 (Average 25.5)

Nova (Once per Long Rest)
Action: 17
Bonus Action: 8.5
Surge Action: 17
Maneuvers on Four Attacks: 18 (4 x 1d8)
Total: 61.5 Average
Variant Human Level 3 Fighter Level 2 Paladin
Str: 16 (+3)
Con: 16 (+3)
HP: 49 (10+3 + 4(6+3))
AC: 19 (Chainmail + Shield + Protection)
Feat: Polearm Master
Fighting Style: Dueling
Action Surge
Subclass: Battle Master
Fighting Style: Protection
Casting
Divine Smite

Damage Per Turn
Action: 1d6 + 3 + 2 (Average 8.5)
Bonus Action: 1d4 + 3 + 2 (Average 7.5)
Total: 12 to 20 (Average 16)

Nova (Once per Long Rest)
Action: 8.5
Bonus Action: 7.5
Surge Action: 8.5
Smites on 2 Attacks: 18 (2 x 2d8)
Maneuvers on Each Attack: 13.5
Total: 47
Comparison
QS
+2 AC
+Lay on Hands
+Casting
Lancer
+14.5 Nova
+9.5 DPR
+Better Crit
+Halfling

Final Piece
The Lancer build doesn't take advantage of RAW, doesn't use variant human, and one last thing.
Halflings are small so the Lancer can mount an ally. Mounting the party's wood elf rouge means it has a huge mobility advantage, the rouge can use their bonus action to disengage(dodging the disadvantage on adjacent targets effect on the lance), and always has an ally to allow sneak attacking. So in the end the Lancer is more rules friendly, arguably more powerful, and synergizes with the party better.

Ralanr
2015-04-05, 07:06 PM
Halfling: Onward my trusted steed! To victory!
Medium sized ally: GET THE **** OFF ALREADY!

I'm sorry it was impossible for me to resist. I only wish I could draw to give a better picture of how ridiculous this would look. Viable and optimal? Probably, I'm not a good optimizer so I couldn't say. Funny? You're damn right!

Marcelinari
2015-04-05, 07:55 PM
It should be noted that Fighter's action surge does't allow for an extra bonus action. To my knowledge, there is no way to take more than a single bonus action in a turn, ever. From what I can tell, that brings the nova damage to about par, but everything else should be just as relevant.

RulesJD
2015-04-06, 01:29 AM
Awesome job on the creativity, but obviously the biggest reason not to use a lance is "You have disadvantage when you use a lance to attack a target within 5 feet of you." Your damage is only on the initial 'charge' into combat. If the enemy charges you, then you're boned.

Torched Forever
2015-04-06, 08:47 AM
It should be noted that Fighter's action surge does't allow for an extra bonus action. To my knowledge, there is no way to take more than a single bonus action in a turn, ever. From what I can tell, that brings the nova damage to about par, but everything else should be just as relevant.

I just checked the PhB and your right. I'll update the info.

RulesJD: Hence the reason why you mount a rouge. On their turn the rouge uses a sneak attack, uses Cunning Action to Disengage, and moves 5ft back allowing you to attack without disadvantage.

HoarsHalberd
2015-04-06, 12:28 PM
I just checked the PhB and your right. I'll update the info.

RulesJD: Hence the reason why you mount a rouge. On their turn the rouge uses a sneak attack, uses Cunning Action to Disengage, and moves 5ft back allowing you to attack without disadvantage.

Which A) puts them at significant risk, compared to being able to use their cunning action for their own purposes, either to bonus attack and ensure their SA goes off or to retreat further out of danger. And B) relies entirely on the enemy not going between you and the rogue in initiative, which given the str heavy build is not too likely.

RulesJD
2015-04-06, 11:31 PM
I just checked the PhB and your right. I'll update the info.

RulesJD: Hence the reason why you mount a rouge. On their turn the rouge uses a sneak attack, uses Cunning Action to Disengage, and moves 5ft back allowing you to attack without disadvantage.

The enemy can still OA the "rider" in this situation. The very next turn they would just walk forward and bash you anyways.

Mechanically I don't believe it is nearly as powerful as Polearm + PM. Thematically, this is amazing.