Dragon Wings

[Ruethgar]

This feat is confusing me a bit. Is glide pretty much just fly but not considered a movement mode? I don't see where it defines glide as only decent and forward movement as it logically would be so it seems like it is just free action flight from falling.

[Curmudgeon]

Dragon Wings doesn't give you a fly speed. It boosts your Jump checks and lets you fall without damage. You can't stay level or move upward; you're always dropping.

[Ruethgar]

But by virtue of average maneuverability you can ascend or descend at a slower rate than listed making the 20:5 seem more like an example than a rule.

[Andezzar]

But by virtue of average maneuverability you can ascend or descend at a slower rate than listed making the 20:5 seem more like an example than a rule.

In addition, you can use your wings to glide, negating damage from a fall from any height and allowing 20 feet of forward travel for every 5 feet of descent.If you do not descend at least 5 ft you do not get any forward movement.

[torrasque666]

If you do not descend at least 5 ft you do not get any forward movement.

It does then state that you can glide 30ft with average maneuverability. I am now confused.

[Ellowryn]

Think of it like Falling with Style. As long as you have open space below and in front of you, you can slowly move forward. You cannot climb, so your total distance is determined by the height at which you started to fall. Average Maneuverability just determines how fast you can turn (45 degrees, 90 degrees, 180, etc).

[Ruethgar]

Yes, but where is this delineated clearly? It never says that you only get some functionality of average maneuverability. Also it would allow you to descend at double speed, not just turn.

[Andezzar]

It does then state that you can glide 30ft with average maneuverability. I am now confused.The feat gives you a minimum descent, and it gives you the maximum distance the end point of your move can be from your starting point. Have fun with geometry (as with any aerial movement without perfect maneuverability).

@Ruethgar: That not all functionality of a Fly speed is gained, you can see that the feat never mentions a fly speed. It only gives a glide speed with the delineated rules: minimum 5 feet descent per 20ft forward movement, maximum 30ft total displacement and minimum 15 ft forward movement, no hover capability, no reverse movement, 5ft forward movement per 45° turn etc. or in short average maneuverability. Average maneuverability is sort hand for further restrictions on the already restricted movement of up to 20 ft forward per 5 ft downward movement

[Ruethgar]

Except it never says that the 20:5 is minimum, it just says it allows it.

[hamishspence]

I look at it this way - you declare 5 ft of descent - you are then allowed to allocate 20 ft of forward movement - and so on.

[Andezzar]

Except it never says that the 20:5 is minimum, it just says it allows it.Without the wings a 5 ft drop allows no forward movement. The forward movement is granted by the wings, if and only if the character descends 5 ft.

[Ruethgar]

I declare a 5ft decent, because of average maneuverability I can move forward at double speed, 60ft. I declare ascent, because of average maneuverability I can ascend 2.5ft per move action with 15ft forward movement so 5ft per round with a double move.

Edit: The 20:5 ratio is redundant with average maneuverability, of course you can move forward 20ft per 5ft decent, but it doesn't have any language to suggest that it is in any way a limit aside from logic(which is not a RAW argument) that gliding should be decent only in most cases and that the ratio wouldn't be there if it didn't serve a purpose.

[Red Fel]

Look, it just does what the feat says it does. The feat says several things. "You have wings that aid your jumps, granting a +10 racial bonus on Jump checks." Self-explanatory. You gain a +10 racial bonus on jump checks, and you gain physical wings. "In addition, you can use your wings to glide, negating damage from a fall from any height and allowing 20 feet of forward travel for every 5 feet of descent." In other words, you can glide - which is a yet-undefined term. It then defines the term to mean that, while gliding, you can negate any fall damage and move forward 20 feet for every 5 feet you descend. "You glide at a speed of 30 feet with average maneuverability. Even if your maneuverability improves, you can't hover while gliding." Further clarifying what glide means. This defines your maneuverability and the fact that you can't hover. "You can't glide while carrying a medium or heavy load." Self-explanatory. "If you become unconscious or helpless while in mid-air, your wings naturally unfurl, and powerful ligaments stiffen them. You descend in a tight corkscrew and take only 1d6 points of falling damage, no matter what the actual distance of the fall." An exception to the "take no fall" damage, if you fall while not gliding (i.e. while unconscious), you take only 1d6 damage.
That's it. That's all the feat says.

It doesn't say you can ascend. Nowhere does it say that. You can't ascend.

It says you can move forward 20 feet for every 5 you descend. It doesn't say you can move double speed while descending, because that applies to flying, not gliding.

This should be handled like spells. If a spell doesn't say that it does X, and there's no rule that says that spells of this sort do X, it doesn't do X. Same applies to Dragon Wings. If it doesn't say that it does X, it doesn't do X.

[Ruethgar]

But it does say it by the inclusion of average maneuverability with only the hover for defined limits on said maneuverability. Akin to a spell referencing another spell to define its function but only saying there is one difference. You gain average maneuverability, and all that entails, except for the allowance of hover while gliding despite improvements of maneuverability.

[Curmudgeon]

I declare a 5ft decent, because of average maneuverability I can move forward at double speed, 60ft. I declare ascent, because of average maneuverability I can ascend 2.5ft per move action with 15ft forward movement so 5ft per round with a double move.
You can only use all the properties of average maneuverability if you have a fly speed. You do not, so you cannot ascend.

From the Glossary for movement modes (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_movementmodes&alpha=M):
Fly: A creature with a fly speed can move through the air at the indicated speed if carrying no more than a light load; see Carrying Capacity, page 161 of the Player's Handbook. ... All fly speeds include a parenthetical note indicating maneuverability, as follows ...

[Ruethgar]

By that assessment average maneuverability would do nothing at all to glide, which would be fine by me even if a bit disheartening. I'm tempted to just go third party with a kobold Wing Glider and be done with it. They were at least clear in how exactly the mechanics work.

[Ellowryn]

By that assessment average maneuverability would do nothing at all to glide, which would be fine by me even if a bit disheartening. I'm tempted to just go third party with a kobold Wing Glider and be done with it. They were at least clear in how exactly the mechanics work.

Umm, it dictates how much and how fast you can turn while gliding. And probably a few other things that i can't remember off the top of my head.

[Red Fel]

Umm, it dictates how much and how fast you can turn while gliding. And probably a few other things that i can't remember off the top of my head.

Precisely. The feat lets you do what the feat says, no more. You're the only one, Rue, who's bringing in all this stuff about flight by reference. You're not actually flying, so none of that applies.

Think about it this way. Take the word glide, a word which has a real-world dictionary definition but no mechanical definition, and replace it with a nonsense word, like smeerp. This feat gives you the ability to smeerp, and defines the mechanics of smeerping. There is no reason to bring flight or flying into this.

A subsequent feat allows you to upgrade your smeerping into flying. But until then, you're just smeerping.

[atemu1234]

Precisely. The feat lets you do what the feat says, no more. You're the only one, Rue, who's bringing in all this stuff about flight by reference. You're not actually flying, so none of that applies.

Think about it this way. Take the word glide, a word which has a real-world dictionary definition but no mechanical definition, and replace it with a nonsense word, like smeerp. This feat gives you the ability to smeerp, and defines the mechanics of smeerping. There is no reason to bring flight or flying into this.

A subsequent feat allows you to upgrade your smeerping into flying. But until then, you're just smeerping.

This is sound (and hilarious) advice.

[Troacctid]

This is sound (and hilarious) advice.

Hilarious, perhaps, but not sound. When a term isn't defined by the rules, you use its normal English definition. You are gliding, not smeerping.

The maneuverability rules are under the headers "Movement in three dimensions" and "Tactical aerial movement." Gliding is both of those things, so it makes sense that there would be a maneuverability associated with it.

[torrasque666]

Precisely. The feat lets you do what the feat says, no more. You're the only one, Rue, who's bringing in all this stuff about flight by reference. You're not actually flying, so none of that applies.

Think about it this way. Take the word glide, a word which has a real-world dictionary definition but no mechanical definition, and replace it with a nonsense word, like smeerp. This feat gives you the ability to smeerp, and defines the mechanics of smeerping. There is no reason to bring flight or flying into this.

A subsequent feat allows you to upgrade your smeerping into flying. But until then, you're just smeerping.

Should the Guild begin to refer to gliding in all future threads as smeerping?

[Andezzar]

Hilarious, perhaps, but not sound. When a term isn't defined by the rules, you use its normal English definition. You are gliding, not smeerping.

The maneuverability rules are under the headers "Movement in three dimensions" and "Tactical aerial movement." Gliding is both of those things, so it makes sense that there would be a maneuverability associated with it.While some definitions of the verb glide (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/glide) refer to aerial movement, it does not refer to upward aerial movement. So such an upward movement is not covered by the rules.

[j_spencer93]

This is actually why i stopped enjoying D&D for awhile...everyone seems out to abuse every little vague thing without applying common sense. Seems to be simply for the sake of making the rules work for them....anyways, as said above. You descend 5ft, move 20ft forward, blah blah blah...not freaking ascending, blah blah blah. Now retort with "well it doesn't say that..."

[Ruethgar]

I am in no way intending to exploit this, I will be using the obvious RAI mechanics, but I do wish to know a definitive RAW reading.