Regarding disarming

[Mr.Kraken]

Say, I am fighting a spellcaster, who is relatively good at melee combat. In melee, he fights with a +1 glaive with which he has weapon focus. Let's say his BAB is +4, with a Str bonus of +2. If he defends a disarming attempt, his attack roll should be +12, correct? +4+2+1+1+4 (two-handed weapon)

Now, the rules for disarming say that if someone tries to disarm you of a worn item, you should defend the same way: with an attack roll. Now, let's say I want to disarm the spellcaster of his spell component pouch. How exactly should his attack roll be made? Should he treat the pouch as an improvised weapon? There's also the -4 for it not being a weapon, but how do you do attack rolls with something that isn't a weapon?

[Flickerdart]

We have this bit of rules from the start of the section: "If the item you are attempting to disarm isn’t a melee weapon the defender may still oppose you with an attack roll, but takes a penalty and can’t attempt to disarm you in return if your attempt fails." The penalty in question is covered in Step 2: it is a -4 penalty to the defender.

Since the rules only cover how to oppose the disarm with a weapon, I'd say that the wizard still makes the opposing attack roll with his glaive (since that's what he's holding). So his total mod is +8.

[Mr.Kraken]

From the Rules Compendium, page 45:
"Otherwise, you and the defender make opposed melee attack rolls with your respective weapons or items."

I was thinking he wouldn't use the glaive to attack because of that. Based on the sentence above, it seems he attacks with the component pouch.

[Karl Aegis]

Relatively good at melee combat means you just died attempting this. Congratulations.

[Galen]

Sorry if this derails the thread, but why is a spell component pouch even a held item? Why is it not worn on one's belt or kept in one's pocket? In fact, "Belt Pouch, Empty" is a legit item to buy in the PHB. Just keep the spell components there, and voila, a pouch will spell components that is worn, not held, and ergo cannot be disarmed.

Am I wrong?

[Psyren]

My understanding was that you don't actually hold the pouch - you dip your free hand in there and scoop out the eye of newt or whatever.

[Troacctid]

It doesn't have to be in their hand for you to disarm them of it.


You can use a disarm action to snatch an item worn by the target. If you want to have the item in your hand, the disarm must be made as an unarmed attack.

If the item is poorly secured or otherwise easy to snatch or cut away the attacker gets a +4 bonus. Unlike on a normal disarm attempt, failing the attempt doesn’t allow the defender to attempt to disarm you. This otherwise functions identically to a disarm attempt, as noted above.

You can’t snatch an item that is well secured unless you have pinned the wearer (see Grapple). Even then, the defender gains a +4 bonus on his roll to resist the attempt.

[Mr.Kraken]

It's not necessary for the item to be held for it to be disarmed, it needs only be worn. Unless it's well secured like a ring or a bracelet, you can try to disarm it. Depending where the wizard has his component pouch, I think it's a viable target to be disarmed.

[Galen]

I think the "You can’t snatch an item that is well secured ..." would normally apply. I mean, why would the wizard not secure his spell component pouch?

[Mr.Kraken]

I think the "You can’t snatch an item that is well secured ..." would normally apply. I mean, why would the wizard not secure his spell component pouch?

Because no one in our group has never seen a wizard get his spell component pouch get disarmed before? :smallcool:

[Curmudgeon]

I think the "You can’t snatch an item that is well secured ..." would normally apply. I mean, why would the wizard not secure his spell component pouch?
Because it's a pouch, not a portable safe. You tie a pouch to your belt, and it's secured — but not well secured. A disarm attempt just cuts the ties. In fact, the attempt should get a bonus.
If the item is poorly secured or otherwise easy to snatch or cut away the attacker gets a +4 bonus.

[bekeleven]

When I play a caster I like to get a belt of hidden pouches and keep one (of the front) pouches open, with a spell component pouch open just on the inside.

It's effectively the same as keeping a spell component pouch on my belt, except that the only way to remove it is to either reach into the pouch, grip the insides, and pull it out, or attempt to sunder my belt.

[sleepyphoenixx]

You're not defending against the disarm attempt with the component pouch. That's stupid. Your enemy targets the pouch, but you still use your weapon to defend yourself.

[Mr.Kraken]

And what if that weapon is a bow or crossbow?

[Diarmuid]

Because it's a pouch, not a portable safe. You tie a pouch to your belt, and it's secured — but not well secured. A disarm attempt just cuts the ties. In fact, the attempt should get a bonus.

I would think "not secured" or "poorly secured" would be something like the hat on your head. Anything that's "tied" or "attached" to something would fall under the "secured" mode of the disarm attemp. Unfortunately, there is no clear cut rule on how to adjudicate that aspect so there's going to be some table to table, dm to dm differences on how to rule and it's best to check with your DM for how it works at your table.

[Curmudgeon]

Anything that's "tied" or "attached" to something would fall under the "secured" mode of the disarm attemp.
Except the rules specify a bonus for anything that's easy to "cut away", so "tied" is obviously not the same as "well secured".

[Diarmuid]

"Tied" doesnt necessarily mean "easy to cut away" either. Not everything "tied" is going to be loosely dangling by a single piece of string/leather that's easily sliced with a 6 foot blade from 5' away.

As I stated, without more clear cut definitions it's an interpretation thing. That's not a bad thing, it just means everyone isnt going to agree on how to rule it out...and that's just fine.

[Flickerdart]

Regardless of how the pouch is secured to the belt, a canny disarmer can just sunder the belt itself (and thus disarm the wearer of all belt pouches/scabbards/etc which are now on the ground). Trickier if the belt is magic or if you're fighting a Hennet, but it's definitely another option.