Tiger Claw maneuvers with a flying character?

[Windrammer]

A lot of the maneuvers require a jump check to ensure that you attack from above or whatever. What if you can fly? I made a warblade/elemental warrior [air], he can fly at will. I can understand for covering horizontal distance quickly that a jump check may be required but as far as positioning goes, does flying make some of those jumping requirements null?

Let's use Swooping Dragon Strike as our example. You just have to leap up and over the target. Can you not just fly?

[Rakaydos]

I was under the impression that the Jump check was a pounce- a horizontal leap, not a high-ground vertical one.

[Mr Adventurer]

No, you can't.

[Andezzar]

Let's use Swooping Dragon Strike as our example. You just have to leap up and over the target. Can you not just fly?Leaping over is not flying over.

[Necroticplague]

Most of the maneuvers I know of require Jump checks, but technically don't actually require you to jump. So while it's questionable if you can jump while flying, you should be able to roll Jump checks while flying no problem if a maneuver says to make one.

[Andezzar]

You leap over an opponent and chop down at her, ruining her defenses and striking with a critical blow.

As part of this maneuver, you attempt a Jump check to leap over your target. The result of this Jump check must be sufficient to allow you to move through an opponent’s space and over her.Emphasis mine. The only way to determine whether the check result is sufficient to do this is to use the rules for making a horizontal jump.

[Necroticplague]

Emphasis mine. The only way to determine whether the check result is sufficient to do this is to use the rules for making a horizontal jump.

Thus the 'most', because my memory doesn't tell me the ratio of maneuvers similar to that one: the ones that simply say "roll jump, if you roll above their AC, X" or "roll jump with fixed DC, do X". See also: Claw at the Moon, Death from Above, Feral Death Blow, Soaring Raptor Strike, Sudden Leap. While you can't perform that specific maneuver you quoted while flying, all the ones I just listed work.

[Andezzar]

You learn to leap into the air and slice at a foe’s vulnerable points. Like a great cat, you spring into the air and attack your foe from an unexpected direction.


Like a thunderbolt, you slam into your foe from above. You leap upon your enemy and drive him into the ground. The impact of your attack gives you extra force, allowing you to score a deadly hit.


You leap upon your opponent, rending and tearing with your weapons in an attempt to kill him with a brutally overwhelming assault.


With a carefully timed leap, you jump over the target’s defenses and attack it from an unexpected angle.


You leap to a new position in the blink of an eye, leaving your opponents baffled.This last one even has a jump in the name.

So swooping dragon strike and all those you mentioned involve actual jumps, not just jump checks. I'm not aware of any other maneuvers that involve jump checks.

[Necroticplague]

This last one even has a jump in the name.

So swooping dragon strike and all those you mentioned involve actual jumps, not just jump checks. I'm not aware of any other maneuvers that involve jump checks.

How about we just stick to the actual text that has mechanics, and not just descriptions? Especially as none of those quoted even use many terms that dnd normally does, and couple are simply false (nothing about Sudden Leap effects your enemies at all).

As part of this maneuver, you attempt a Jump check to leap into the air and make a melee attack that targets your foe’s upper body, face, and neck. The Jump check’s DC is equal to your target’s AC. If this check succeeds, your attack deals an extra 2d6 points of damage. If this attack threatens a critical hit, you gain a +4 bonus on your roll to confirm the critical hit.If your check fails, you can still attack, but you do not deal extra damage or gain a bonus on a roll to confirm acritical hit. The maneuver is still considered expended.
Huh, nothing actually requiring you to jump, just that you make a jump check. Doesn't reference rules for jumping, the check is equal to enemy AC. Nothing stopping you from doing this while flying.

To use this maneuver, you
must be adjacent to a foe. As part of this maneuver, you attempt a DC 20 Jump check. If this check succeeds, you can make a single melee attack against an opponent that you were adjacent to when you began this maneuver. This attack occurs in the air as you soar over your opponent, also as part of the maneuver. Again, tells you to make a jump check without actually requiring that you jump, the DC is a fixed amount.Can still be done flying.

To use this maneuver, you must be adjacent to your intended target. As part of this maneuver, make a Jump check with a DC equal to your opponent’s AC. If the check succeeds, you can then make a single melee attack against your foe, also as part of this maneuver. The target is considered flat-footed against this attack. If your attack deals damage, your target must attempt a Fortitude save (DC 19 + your Str modifier). If this save fails, your target is instantly slain (his hit points drop to –10). If the save is successful, you deal an extra 20d6 points of damage to the target in addition to your normal weapon damage. Creatures immune to critical hits are immune to the death effect of this strike. If your Jump check fails, you can make a single attack normally. The maneuver is still considered expended. Again, says to make a jump check, but doesn't actually refer to the rules for jumping in any way, shape, or form. DC is your opponent's AC.
You can use this maneuver only against a foe of a larger size category than yours. As part of this maneuver, you make a Jump check with a DC equal to your foe’s AC. If this check succeeds, you also make a melee attack as part of this maneuver. If the check fails, you cannot make this attack and the maneuver is still considered expended. You gain a +4 bonus on the attack roll and deal an extra 6d6 points of damage if your attack hits.This verse, same as the last one.

You can make a Jump check as a swift action and move the distance determined by your check result. You provoke attacks of opportunity with this movement, and you must move in a straight line. As with any movement, you can attempt a Tumble check to avoid any attacks you provoke with this sudden leap. You can’t move through enemies, unless you succeed on the
appropriate Tumble check.Actually does reference the Jump rules, at least implicitely (how else would we figure out the distance?). However, doesn't actually require you to jump. In fact, the restriction bolded means you can't make a normal long jump using it, because long jumps also cause you to move upwards, instead of in a straight line. Also, note that it does not say you jump the distance that you get from the result, it says you move it.
Also, just to nitpick: it doesn't have jump in the name, it has leap in the name.

[Andezzar]

I quoted what the maneuvers do while you quoted how that is achieved. One without the other is meaningless. You cannot simply ignore half of the maneuver text and I am not aware of any rule saying that you are supposed to do that.

While being left baffled may not have any mechanical implication, it still happens as per the rules, exactly like the leap in the main clause of the sentence.

[Necroticplague]

I quoted what the maneuvers do while you quoted how that is achieved. One without the other is meaningless. You cannot simply ignore half of the maneuver text and I am not aware of any rule saying that you are supposed to do that.

While being left baffled may not have any mechanical implication, it still happens as per the rules, exactly like the leap in the main clause of the sentence.

The bolded portion is false: the mechanics have meaning without the fluff, but the fluff has no meaning without the mechanics. If you omitted all of what I did, it still works perfectly fine mechanically. If you omit all of what you did, it tells you nothing about what it does.

The italicized portion is hypocritical; you were completely ignoring half the maneuver text(actually, more, since the mechanics tended to take up more space than the fluff).

[Andezzar]

Too be totally correct I meant ignoring one part of the text and using only the rest. Please show a rule that allows you to ignore the parts that I quoted. Unless you can, the rules are clear in that each of the maneuvers include a jump by the character not only a jump check made by the player.

[Necroticplague]

Too be totally correct I meant ignoring one part of the text and using only the rest. Please show a rule that allows you to ignore the parts that I quoted. Unless you can, the rules are clear in that each of the maneuvers include a jump by the character not only a jump check made by the player.

General interpretive principal of not treating things that don't use game terms as if they were rules. If we want to get that pedantic, where's the rule stating you can't jump while flying? Or the rule stating leaping (which most of those manuevers do) is the same thing as jumping (which only one of them says you do? Tell me, what mechanical effects do the portions you mention add?

[Firechanter]

A Leap is when you wiggle your butt before you jump. Or was that a Pounce? ^.^

Anyway, the fact that the TC maneuvers' DCs are rather arbitrary, seems to imply that these are not subject to the standard Jump rules and procedures.
Death From Above? A DC20 high jump would take you up all or 5 Feet. Doesn't sound like a lot of "above" to me.
Soaring Raptor? What the hell is a Jump DC=AC supposed to represent?

Thus, since they are not normal jumps anyway, I see nothing wrong with them working for Flying characters.

[Sam K]

A Leap is when you wiggle your butt before you jump. Or was that a Pounce? ^.^



No, pounce is when you wiggle your butt after you land. How did you think you got those extra attacks?

[Andezzar]

General interpretive principal of not treating things that don't use game terms as if they were rules.Where is this general principle?


If we want to get that pedantic, where's the rule stating you can't jump while flying? Or the rule stating leaping (which most of those manuevers do) is the same thing as jumping (which only one of them says you do?If words are not defined in the rulebooks, we resort to English or whatever language the rules are written in. Meriam Webster describes jump (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/jump) with leap and vice versa. They are even listed as synonyms.


Tell me, what mechanical effects do the portions you mention add?Not a mechanical effect but a descriptive one. If all you have is the mechanics and not what the mechanics are supposed to represent, you are only adding and subtracting numbers on a piece of paper.

@Firechanter: While they may not follow the normal mechanics for a jump (e.g. DC 20 check that takes the initiator above the target) they should still follow the description of the jump. Flying over a creature is not jumping over a creature

[Firechanter]

Yeah, it can be a Double Jump or Air Jump for all I care.

[Necroticplague]

Where is this general principle?The same place you got your leap-jump equivalence: outside of the game.


Not a mechanical effect but a descriptive one. If all you have is the mechanics and not what the mechanics are supposed to represent, you are only adding and subtracting numbers on a piece of paper. And if all you have is fluff without any crunch to back it up, you've got nothing at all. A car can do some good without paint, but paint is useless if you don't have anything to apply it to.


@Firechanter: While they may not follow the normal mechanics for a jump (e.g. DC 20 check that takes the initiator above the target) they should still follow the description of the jump. Flying over a creature is not jumping over a creature

Why can't you jump while flying? A jump is merely "to spring clear of the ground or other support by a sudden muscular effort; leap:" or "to rise suddenly or quickly:". Both of these are things you can do perfectly well while flying; just coil up your wings for a short amount of time before launching yourself in a giant flap through the air, and that meets the definition. The only difference is whether wings or legs are doing the work.

[Andezzar]

Please cite an outside source for your text disregarding principle. Also when two parts are fluff in your opinion, why is only one part differentiated from what you acknowledge as rules by being italicized?

With only fluff you could have a very freeform game or a collaborative storytelling event.

How do you spring clear of the ground if you are already clear of the ground?

[Necroticplague]

Also when two parts are fluff in your opinion, why is only one part differentiated from what you acknowledge as rules by being italicized? Are you asking why I consider the portion we talk about fluff, or why it it wouldn't be in with the rest of the fluff? The first is easy; because it doesn't use terms that have defined mechanical effects, so I don't ascribe a mechanical effect to them. The second is because WOTC needs page filler to make the books big enough to justify their cost, so they add little bits here and there to up the space. However, they can't add portions that have mechanical effects, because that would mess up the system, so they add unnecessary little portions of fluff. It's separated from the other fluff to allow them to repeat themselves, upping wordcount.


How do you spring clear of the ground if you are already clear of the ground?

Because clearing something isn't binary. You can clear it, than clear it even more. Or, you know, note the part of the definition that says 'or some other support'. Like the air that was holding you aloft before, which you're now springing clear of with a burst of energy from your wings.

[Twurps]

Fluffwise: I find it hard to imagine how being able to fly would make it more difficult to pass over somebody. So flying shouldn't prevent the maneuvers from working in my book.

Crunchwise: I agree fully with Necroticplague

[StreamOfTheSky]

For me, other than the ones that specifically use the jump distance rules (sudden leap, swooping dragon strike, maybe some others but those are the only ones I can think of), the issue isn't whether you need to follow the normal rules for jumping lengths.

It's whether you can jump at all. I play RAI, not RAW. By RAW, it is not defined anywhere what is required to jump. But to me... by common sense, you need an adjacent surface to propel yourself off of. Not necessarily the ground, it could be the wall of the dungeon, or even the shoulders of another creature. But you need something to push off of, get that whole "equal and opposite forces" thing going.

Sorry if I just killed a catgirl.

[Draz74]

So I suppose you also can't use Baffling Defense unless your character actually stands on one foot, with their hands both held above their head? And obviously you can't use Scything Blade with a weapon that can't actually "cut," because the fluff says so -- even though the crunch sounds like it was intended to work with any weapon. Don't forget how using Lion's Roar necessarily gives away your position to anything in the next dungeon room over, due to its auditory magnitude. Or how you can't use Time Stands Still unless it's raining.

That, or you could drop all of these stupid restrictions (most of which were obviously not intended) and accept that the fluff of maneuvers is just a loose suggestion of a way the DM could describe those maneuvers, if she is so inclined and if the in-game details fit.

It's not even hard to imagine a flying character pulling off the acrobatically-inclined stunts of Tiger Claw style. And they're already throwing skill points into a skill that they normally really don't need, just to enhance these maneuvers. Just let them make Jump checks to use these maneuvers normally, then figure out some other fluff to describe what's going on. Seriously.

It's bad enough that a part of ToB that is (probably) crunch, not fluff, cripples the entire Stone Dragon discipline by requiring that you stand on solid ground in order to use it. Let's not send other Disciplines to the same sad fate, shall we?

[Maglubiyet]

Makes perfect sense to me that if the attack is based on the extra maneuverability in three dimensions then flying would work just as well. You could substitute flying for pretty much any other Jump check (distance, jump up, jump down).

If it's not just power and position, but also precision, then a skill check should be required. Maybe substitute Jump with the Fly skill (in PF) or require the flight maneuverability be Pefect or Good.

[Necroticplague]

For me, other than the ones that specifically use the jump distance rules (sudden leap, swooping dragon strike, maybe some others but those are the only ones I can think of), the issue isn't whether you need to follow the normal rules for jumping lengths.

It's whether you can jump at all. I play RAI, not RAW. By RAW, it is not defined anywhere what is required to jump. But to me... by common sense, you need an adjacent surface to propel yourself off of. Not necessarily the ground, it could be the wall of the dungeon, or even the shoulders of another creature. But you need something to push off of, get that whole "equal and opposite forces" thing going.

Sorry if I just killed a catgirl.

Well, the RAI also goes towards 'you can do this in mid-air'. After all, there are maneuvers you explicitly can't use in mid-air, belonging to the Stone Dragon school. If they intended for the Tiger Heart maneuvers to have the same fate, they would have spelled it out like they did with those Stone Dragon maneuvers. However, they did not do so.

...........How the heck do you think flying works?While flying, you push against the air to keep yourself aloft. You get the equal and opposite reaction that the normal force of the ground normally applies by instead displacing air below you. To jump in mid air is simply a burst of wing movement that increases your lift and basically turns you into a projectile for a short amount of time, just like how jumping on the ground is a burst of leg movement to increase the normal force and basically turning yourself into a projectile for a short time.

No, the catgirl is still alive, despite your attempts (though I think I may have got her a bit on the return fire).

[Esprit15]

I'm going to have to agree with the citation of the Stone Dragon discipline specifying that one must be on the ground as reason that the Tiger Claw discipline needn't be. Fluff the jump checks however you like - perhaps it is rapid direction change in the air from wings or whatever method the character propels their self. In Pathfinder I would be perfectly fine with replacing it with the Fly skill for such a character.

You're too focused on the importance of fluff, and this is one of those areas where mechanics should come first, and the fluff should adapt. It would be rather funny for a discipline that is focused on maneuverability to be handicapped by flight, which should actually improve maneuverability.

Also, the feat Dragon Wings (RoD) gives a boost to Jump checks, as a random note.

[Necroticplague]

Also, the feat Dragon Wings (RoD) gives a boost to Jump checks, as a random note.

As does Winged Warrior.

[Curmudgeon]

Also, the feat Dragon Wings (RoD) gives a boost to Jump checks, as a random note.
You might also note that Dragon Wings doesn't give you a fly speed.

[Esprit15]

You might also note that Dragon Wings doesn't give you a fly speed.

No, but it's part of a feat tree that does

[Andezzar]

You're too focused on the importance of fluff, and this is one of those areas where mechanics should come first, and the fluff should adapt. It would be rather funny for a discipline that is focused on maneuverability to be handicapped by flight, which should actually improve maneuverability.Tiger claw seeks to emulate the maneuverability of tigers. Tigers do not fly. The up and down movement of a jump is totally unnecessary for a flying creature. A simple downward movement would achieve the same effect. However the maneuvers speak of leaps and require jump checks and do not speak of dives. Also I have yet to see a logical argument why one should ignore one part of the non-italicized text and follow the other.

Another point against only needing jump checks and not jumps with the aforementioned maneuvers are the short descriptions.


Swooping Dragon Strike: Strike—Jump over foe, deal +10d6 damage, stun

@Curmudgeon: What is your stance on jumping while flying? I've tried to explain that it does not work but maybe you have better success.

BTW can you jump while immersed in water, can you do it while burrowing? I would not call an arching movement in those media a jump.

[Talya]

Tangential point - at least two flying pc races - Dragonborn and Raptorans - get a nice +10 jump check due to their wings. I don't know if there are any others. That makes Tiger Claw an excellent discipline for them.

[Necroticplague]

Tiger claw seeks to emulate the maneuverability of tigers. Tigers do not fly. They also don't wield weapons, and yet several of the maneuvers stubbornly insist on improving your TWF ability.


The up and down movement of a jump is totally unnecessary for a flying creature. It may not be necessary, but that doesn't mean they can't. Normally, they wouldn't, but they might if they, oh, knew a martial art that gained a benefit from being a living projectile with pointy bits.


A simple downward movement would achieve the same effect. However the maneuvers speak of leaps and require jump checks and do not speak of dives.How is letting yourself fall going to achieve the same effect as launching yourself like a projectile? That's like saying that dropping arrows on someone has the same effect as firing a bow at them. Or, you go back to the definition of jumping, and go 'springing free doesn't necessarily mean going up'. After all, intentionally running of a ledge is a jump, even though all that movement is downward.


Also I have yet to see a logical argument why one should ignore one part of the non-italicized text and follow the other. One uses mechanical terms that are defined entirely within the context of the game, the other is a piece of fluff with no mechanical impact (which you can identify by the lack of reference to almost any mechanical term, using exactly one, and without any kind of context that would make it a mechanic.). Thus, for purposes of mechanics, Only the one that actually uses them is used.


Another point against only needing jump checks and not jumps with the aforementioned maneuvers are the short descriptions. A.K.A, more pieces of fluff with no impact on the mechanics.


BTW can you jump while immersed in water, can you do it while burrowing? I would not call an arching movement in those media a jump.

If they went through the normal process used for jumping (store up energy n [LOCOMOTIVE BODY PART]), then release in a burst that carries you without further input for some bit), then sure. If you shove off the earth beneath you to accelerate your way to the earth above you, how is that any different then shoving off the earth beneath you to accelerate you into the air above you (assuming you can move through earth)?