Need help for comparing the hordes of a Dominater and a Necromancer.

[SangoProduction]

I know of the spells Animate Dead (4th level) and Dominate Person (5th level). I've determined that, even considering a 10% chance of failure with Dominate Person (due to will saves), an equivalent level dominator would be able to amass more and more powerful allies than an animator. (since animators are limited to 80 HD by level 20, but before level 12 a dominator could have multiple hundreds of slaves, without HD restrictions, even without silly rule mongering)

But, are there other spells that necromancers can use? I also haven't read through the rebuke undead for clerics, as it is just confusing. So, could anyone inform me of these other options?

[OldTrees1]

Quantity
The 2nd level spell Command Undead is the Necromancer Horde easily ending up in the thousands to tens of thousands due to its cubic growth with level(when combined with Chain Spell).

Quality
The 6th level spell Animate Dread Warrior animates someone with all their levels intact(-6 Int, -4 Cha) and is not limited in how many you can control(although each casting costs xp).

Included For Completion
Rebuke undead allows you to control any undead limited only by their effective HD. Some undead control their spawn. This allows you to command an infinite number of undead by merely commanding the first and finding enough victims to turn into spawn.


So a Dominator can control casters 2 spell levels earlier and their casters do not suffer the -6Int/-4Cha penalty. However a 20th level Necromancer also controls casters and has perfect loyalty. Eventually the Necromancer will control more casting than the Dominator but the Dominator should have reached tens of thousands by then so quantity stops mattering.

[SangoProduction]

Thank you! I knew the amount in the necromancer's horde was just too low. Thanks.

[AvatarVecna]

Thrallherd cheese and Leadership cobo abuse can usually ensure that a Dominator always wins a battle of quantity and quality. That said, a well optimized necromancer is at the very least the obvious second choice (as opposed to a summoner): beyond having access to Animate Dead, Create Undead, and Create Greater Undead, Animate dead is based on your caster level. Not only doesthis mean anything increasing your caster level also increases your minion pool (quite possibly in drastic ways, if Reserves of Strength and Consumptive Field are involved), it means that a theurge caster gets two pools of mionionsthey can draw from. That particular trick is awesome because WotC used it in one of the supplements (IIRC, Complete Champion)tocreate a very highlevel theurge with a veritable army of the undead.

[unseenmage]

The third option is the creator. Magic traps of Minor Servitor (SS), Awaken Sand (Sa), and Create Crawling Claw (MC:MoF) allow one to make limitless enemies from ones environment. Two of those spells are 3.0 though. Greater Humanoid Essence (MoE) allows one to mind control these creations instead of simply befriending them too.

[OldTrees1]

Thrallherd cheese and Leadership cobo abuse can usually ensure that a Dominator always wins a battle of quantity and quality. That said, a well optimized necromancer is at the very least the obvious second choice (as opposed to a summoner): beyond having access to Animate Dead, Create Undead, and Create Greater Undead, Animate dead is based on your caster level. Not only doesthis mean anything increasing your caster level also increases your minion pool (quite possibly in drastic ways, if Reserves of Strength and Consumptive Field are involved), it means that a theurge caster gets two pools of mionionsthey can draw from. That particular trick is awesome because WotC used it in one of the supplements (IIRC, Complete Champion)tocreate a very highlevel theurge with a veritable army of the undead.

Huh? Leadership, something both fields have access to, can ensure one side comes out on top? That does not make sense.

Quantity for both is ruled by multiple daily castings of Chain Command Undead/Chain Dominate and thus both scale cubically. Necromancers have a slight edge in the quantity since their spell has a lower minimum slot.

Actually that reminded me of a point about quality. Dominate Person is 4th, Animate Dread Warrior is 6th, and Dominate Monster is 9th. So while a Dominator commands casters earlier it is only Humanoid casters. The Necromancer is the first to gain access to the non humanoid casters.

[AvatarVecna]

Huh? Leadership, something both fields have access to, can ensure one side comes out on top? That does not make sense.

Quantity for both is ruled by multiple daily castings of Chain Command Undead/Chain Dominate and thus both scale cubically. Necromancers have a slight edge in the quantity since their spell has a lower minimum slot.

Actually that reminded me of a point about quality. Dominate Person is 4th, Animate Dread Warrior is 6th, and Dominate Monster is 9th. So while a Dominator commands casters earlier it is only Humanoid casters. The Necromancer is the first to gain access to the non humanoid casters.

Thrallherds can technically have thrallherds as thralls, who can have thrallherds as thralls, all the way down. Throw in psycrystals that can technically take feats (like Leadership, for more Thrallherd cohorts), and you have an army with both lots of casting power and ridiculous numbers. More to the point, Thrallherd is a powerful option whose crunch and fluff perfectly mesh with the Dominator ideal (considering that being able to psionically dominate others is both a pre-req and a perk), while the option is...much less friendly towards the crunch and fluff of necromancy (if only because psionics seems to dislike the undead). That said, while a necromancer can have an army of both greater size and power, if they cheese their way into it, it's a lot more difficult: creating enough undead followers would require not only functionally infinite caster level, but functionally infinite gold (for the rather expensive material components).

That being said, it's kinda like a highly skilled {insert "Street Fighter"-esque fighting game here} player facing off against a spastic button masher, and finding that they are pretty much evenly matched; sure, it looks like their on the same level, but it's clear that one of them has worked a lot harder to get to said level.

[OldTrees1]

Thrallherds can technically have thrallherds as thralls, who can have thrallherds as thralls, all the way down. Throw in psycrystals that can technically take feats (like Leadership, for more Thrallherd cohorts), and you have an army with both lots of casting power and ridiculous numbers. More to the point, Thrallherd is a powerful option whose crunch and fluff perfectly mesh with the Dominator ideal (considering that being able to psionically dominate others is both a pre-req and a perk), while the option is...much less friendly towards the crunch and fluff of necromancy (if only because psionics seems to dislike the undead). That said, while a necromancer can have an army of both greater size and power, if they cheese their way into it, it's a lot more difficult: creating enough undead followers would require not only functionally infinite caster level, but functionally infinite gold (for the rather expensive material components).

That being said, it's kinda like a highly skilled {insert "Street Fighter"-esque fighting game here} player facing off against a spastic button masher, and finding that they are pretty much evenly matched; sure, it looks like their on the same level, but it's clear that one of them has worked a lot harder to get to said level.
1) Having Cohorts/Thralls "all the way down" is not unique to Thrallherds and is available to both fields. So both fields have access to the tiny army that the leadership chain method produces.
2) What cheese I mentioned I mentioned for both sides equally. That is using Chain Spell on the control spell of choice (Command Undead/Dominate Person).
3) How would creating that many undead require anything more than the minimum cl to cast Animate Dead? Nowhere near infinite caster level. You are aware that Animate Dead is not needed for control right? As for the infinite material components, those are not a problem to any necromancer with Wisdom and knowledge of the undead. (aka it is really easy to get Animate Dead as a spell like ability).

This is less like your "button masher vs expert" analogy and more like "2 experts with practically identical styles using different base characters".

PS: Of course both sides I am presenting are crushed by an evil cleric with a vampire create spawn chain.

[unseenmage]

IIRC don't you get access to Thralls earlier than you get access to Leadership making Thrallherd chaining the superior quantity option?

[OldTrees1]

IIRC don't you get access to Thralls earlier than you get access to Leadership making Thrallherd chaining the superior quantity option?

Prerequisite is 8 ranks so they both come online at 6th HD.

[AvatarVecna]

1) Having Cohorts/Thralls "all the way down" is not unique to Thrallherds and is available to both fields. So both fields have access to the tiny army that the leadership chain method produces.
2) What cheese I mentioned I mentioned for both sides equally. That is using Chain Spell on the control spell of choice (Command Undead/Dominate Person).
3) How would creating that many undead require anything more than the minimum cl to cast Animate Dead? Nowhere near infinite caster level. You are aware that Animate Dead is not needed for control right? As for the infinite material components, those are not a problem to any necromancer with Wisdom and knowledge of the undead. (aka it is really easy to get Animate Dead as a spell like ability).

This is less like your "button masher vs expert" analogy and more like "2 experts with practically identical styles using different base characters".

PS: Of course both sides I am presenting are crushed by an evil cleric with a vampire create spawn chain.

1. Thrallherds have access to an additional source of Leadership-like abilities, which doesn't prevent others in the chain (such as the psycrystals) from taking Leadership themselves; considering that a Thrallherd's Leadership ability advances quicker than other Leadership abilities (Character Level+Thrallherd Level+Cha mod) without expending resources to do so. As an added bonus, the fluff of the ability implies a level of control other Leadership-like abilities lack.

2. I think it's possible the Thrallherd could come ahead in the metapsionic manipulation of minion creation, if only because psionics are notoriously good for nova'ing things like that (sometimes, to the expense of the caster). The flip side of this argument is that metamagic has a lot more splat support, so I suppose it's probable that the necromancer may gain an advantage here...at least, in terms of numbers. That this method requires you to invest your time in it (namely, your actions and your spells/spell-likes), it can still be argued to be worse than the "free minions appear on your doorstep, and replacements show up whenever you need replacements" Thrallherd ability, but I digress.

3. The caster level trick served two purposes (at least with Animate Dead): first, allowing automatic control of the undead animated, without having to spend another spell to control them; secondly, allowing for much more powerful undead to be created in a single casting...at least, for certain definitions of power. Furthermore, however easy it may be to gain access to a no-cost version of Animate Dead, it still requires at least some effort, which is more effort than the Thrallherd must spend to get a control power that doesn't cost him a cent (namely, no effort at all). Unless, of course, whatever method you're using to get Animate Dead as a spell-like ability gives you many more uses of it per day than the Thrallherd can use their powers to dominate others.

P.S.: Well, yes, that practically goes without saying. Infinitely resetting whatevers that don't require the main character to spend their spells, money, or actions over and over will always be superior to whatever cockamamie RAW abuse we can cook up here.

P.P.S.:We could also argue about which side is useful against more types or in more situations, but I imagine that would end with a "Schrodinger's Wizard vs. Schrodinger's Psion" argument, and in the end they'd still be pretty similar (and certainly quite powerful, both in their own right and in their armies).

P.P.P.S.: Of course, the Wightpocalypse is also a pretty neat trick, so that's a point for necromancers.

P.P.P.P.S.: We could also argue about which of these ideas would be less likely to be allowed in a home game, but I have a feeling that most DMs frown on this level of minion-mancy, no matter what flavor it comes in.

EDIT:

Thrallherds also get an additional thrall as their capstone. This is, however, so late-game that it's only a real factor if these builds are competing in a vacuum, rather than being built up as actual characters would be over time, so it's probably a moot point for the most part. Still, it's worth mentioning.

[unseenmage]

P to the fifth power S: Toss the whole discussion in a blender and just run a Gestalt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm) Psion/necromancer. :smalltongue:

[OldTrees1]

@AvatarVecna
1a) "A thrallherd cannot take the Leadership feat" so each node can only have one or the other. A cohort of a Necromancer can be a Thrallherd just as easily as a Thrall of a Thrallherd can can Leadership.

1b) A Thrallherd leadership score starts lower and rises faster than Leadership's leadership score. However it is easy to max either out.

1c) If you are talking about "level of control" then you need to talk about "army loyalty". Thrallherds gain in the first but lose in the second due to the pesky will save.

3) Yes, Spellstiched Undead does satisfy the "more animate dead uses per day than Command Undead/Psionic Dominates per day" requirement. Sure it takes some investment but honestly it is smaller than 1 cycle of control for a Necromancer, Enchanter, or Thrallherd.

Basically there are differences between the 3 (2nd level spell/4th level spell/11 pp for example) but those are minor compared to the actual skeleton that they all share
(#casters * #victims per cast * #castings per day * #days per victim).

PS: On "what would be allowed in a home game":
I don't think any DM would allow an unoptimized minionmancer to actually use their full potential army size (spell slots above level 2|4 * caster level lower bound or manifester level * power points/11).

[AvatarVecna]

@AvatarVecna
1a) "A thrallherd cannot take the Leadership feat" so each node can only have one or the other. A cohort of a Necromancer can be a Thrallherd just as easily as a Thrall of a Thrallherd can can Leadership.

1b) A Thrallherd leadership score starts lower and rises faster than Leadership's leadership score. However it is easy to max either out.

1c) If you are talking about "level of control" then you need to talk about "army loyalty". Thrallherds gain in the first but lose in the second due to the pesky will save.

3) Yes, Spellstiched Undead does satisfy the "more animate dead uses per day than Command Undead/Psionic Dominates per day" requirement. Sure it takes some investment but honestly it is smaller than 1 cycle of control for a Necromancer, Enchanter, or Thrallherd.

Basically there are differences between the 3 (2nd level spell/4th level spell/11 pp for example) but those are minor compared to the actual skeleton that they all share
(#casters * #victims per cast * #castings per day * #days per victim).

PS: On "what would be allowed in a home game":
I don't think any DM would allow an unoptimized minionmancer to actually use their full potential army size (spell slots above level 2|4 * caster level lower bound or manifester level * power points/11).

All fair points, but some slight disagreements.

1a. Thrallherds are barred from taking Leadership, but not other Leadership-like abilities. Furthermore, as mentioned, they can have a psycrystal, which is not barred from taking Leadership or any other Leadership-like abilities; of course, balancing that out is that, to keep with the spirit of the challenge, the Thrallherd shouldn't take Undead Leadership, which is a stupidly obvious choice for the necromancer. Beyond that, yeah, a Necromancer can be a Thrallherd, but that's also going against the spirit of the challenge: an undead controller vs a mental domination controller. Someone who gets to use both is obviously going to curbstomp both of them separately.

1b. Eh, it probably balances out well enough.

1c. Their Leadership-like ability doesn't require a Will save, and isn't even technically Mind-Effecting. As for spells/powers, I'm sure any powerful caster/psion worth their spells/power will have found a way to make the save virtually impossible (especially considering all the other b.s. optimization they're both apparently using).

3. Fair enough.

P.S.: I imagine that there's some DMs out there that would allow such blatant munchkinry, but I've yet to meet one.

[OldTrees1]

All fair points, but some slight disagreements.

P.S.: I imagine that there's some DMs out there that would allow such blatant munchkinry, but I've yet to meet one.

Fair enough. The Will save was in reference to Psionic Dominate/Dominate not Thrallherd. That is a concern at the optimization level I was talking about(taking a couple of feats) but not the level you were talking about. So I think it all balances out well enough.

PS:
While some DM's would allow "such blatant munchkinry" I don't think any of them would stay awake long enough for all the minions (say 70 at 7th and ~1,000 at 20th) an unoptimized minionmancer can field to take their turns in combat.