Dragonblood Sorcerer sub-level optimization -- 9th level SLA at 4th level

[dextercorvia]

Dragonblood Sorcerer (RotD) lets you choose a spell you know, and gives you 3 uses per day of that spell as a SLA. The ability rules out free wishes, etc. by specifying no costly components, no focus, and no XP costs. However, the only stipulation on the spell you choose is that it has to be one that you know, and can't be the highest level you can cast. Note that there are a few feats and abilities to let you know a spell that is higher level than one you can cast. Enter Axiomatic Bloodline (DragonCompendium -- there are others, but this one seemed useful). This feat grants you a spell known at every spell level, including Dominate Monster as a 9th level spell. Now, the ability says you give up a spell per day of that level and the one above that, but you don't have those, so you lose nothing. (The sub level does not state this as an exchange, simply that you gain X and lose Y as independent clauses.)

[atemu1234]

Unless I'm mistaken, the feats grant those as spells known at the level you gain access to them, ruling this out.

[Asrrin]

What about a dip in Sandshaper, or taking mother cyst feat?

[Troacctid]

It doesn't matter if you find a way to get an abnormally high-level spell onto your list of spells known. The substitution level requires you to sacrifice a spell slot of that level and a spell slot of one level higher in order to gain the benefit. If you don't have the appropriately-leveled spell slots, you won't get the SLA.

[dextercorvia]

Unless I'm mistaken, the feats grant those as spells known at the level you gain access to them, ruling this out.

You are mistaken. It simply says "Your ancestry gives you a bonus spell known at each spell level, starting at 1st, from the following list."


It doesn't matter if you find a way to get an abnormally high-level spell onto your list of spells known. The substitution level requires you to sacrifice a spell slot of that level and a spell slot of one level higher in order to gain the benefit. If you don't have the appropriately-leveled spell slots, you won't get the SLA.

Citation needed. As I said, it actually doesn't say that. It says you gain a Spell-like ability, and lose some spell slots. No where does it say that it is a sacrifice, or that you are required to have those spell slots to give up. Even under the general rules for Racial Sub-levels it never describes it as an exchange of class abilities, just that you gain some and lose others, as though it is totally independent.

[jiriku]

Ah, I see what you mean. The writers assumed "sorcerers don't know any spells that they're unable to cast", so the restriction "can't be of the highest level you can cast" in effect forces you to choose a spell that's lower than the highest level of spells you can cast. However, they didn't write "lower than the highest", they said "not the highest".

Your interpretation seems correct to me. However, I'd be very surprised if any DM let you bring that to the table. There's no reason for the feature to force you to choose a spell that's either higher or lower than your highest castable level, so it's pretty clear that the intent was to force you to choose a spell that was strictly lower than your highest castable level. This feels like a TO-level trick to me.

However, I think you'd be closer to PO if you added Versatile Spellcaster to the mix and claimed the right to select a spell that, in the absence of VS, would have been of your highest castable level.

[dextercorvia]

It is absolutely TO. I won't be pulling it on any ECL5ish parties any time soon. :smallwink: It is yet another place where the poor beleaguered designers were unable foresee the ramifications of their word choice.

[Troacctid]

Citation needed. As I said, it actually doesn't say that. It says you gain a Spell-like ability, and lose some spell slots. No where does it say that it is a sacrifice, or that you are required to have those spell slots to give up. Even under the general rules for Racial Sub-levels it never describes it as an exchange of class abilities, just that you gain some and lose others, as though it is totally independent.

It says you gain a spell-like ability "in return for those two spell slots." That indicates an exchange.

Anyway, Mother Cyst lets you cast the spells but doesn't add them to your Sorcerer spells known. (You just cast them as if you knew them. Also, it's not class-specific.) Similarly, Sand Shaper makes the spells available to you "like" your other known spells, but again, they aren't added to your list of Sorcerer spells known, you just cast them as if they were, and they're not class-specific.

[dextercorvia]

Ouch. I see your meaning. I missed that every time I read through it. I should feel comforted to have that loophole closed, but I hate being wrong. :smallredface: