Two Brothers--LG Paladin & CE Sorcerer

[Jendekit]

I was watching a video about playing Chaotic Evil, and it gave me an idea for two characters.

Two adventuring companions are diametric opposites, one is a lawful good (as required) paladin and the other is a chaotic evil sorcerer. They bicker, argue, and fight (with words, not steel and spell) all the time. But they would never consider killing or even intentionally hurting the other. Because they are brothers, and in spite of their disagreements they still love each other.

The paladin tries to redeem his brother or at the very least keep the damage that he does to a minimum. He knows that the likelihood of succeeding in redeeming his brother is minimal, but he refuses to give up on his family. He'd get more sleep and have less stress if he didn't have to watch his brother all the time to keep him from doing evil, but if he doesn't then the ones that try to stop his brother could either kill his brother or be killed themselves.

The sorcerer knows that his brother is trying to turn him into a goody good. He'd probably be able to blow stuff up more often if he left his brother behind, but his brother is the only person that he feels that he can trust his back to. Others may talk about offing his goody good tag-along brother, but if he hears one word suggesting harm upon his brother, he will bring all his power onto the one to foolishly suggest such.

With that in mind, would the paladin lose his powers due to traveling with an evil companion?

[tadkins]

I think the paladin would lose their powers. If I recall correctly, they're not allowed to associate with evil.

If you're going for a full opposites theme, why not make the LG character a fighter? They'd be opposites in alignment as well as combat style (mundane vs magic).

[Karl Aegis]

Book says he falls.

[Geddy2112]

From pathfinder-"While they may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends their moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what they believe to be a greater evil"

So, just because they are brothers, no. Honestly, the paladin is going to fall the minute they allow the sorcerer to hurt others or destroy stuff. Now, if the sorcerer was evil, but was not actively doing evil things then maybe. I say "offends their moral code" is a greater qualifier than "evil". Some "evil" people and things might have some common ground with a paladin, but even "good" characters can do things that would offend a paladins moral code.

If the characters are in a group, I would make sure there is a major great evil that they are both against. The habitat for humanity paladin and the sorcerer who wants to make cities and houses their personal playthings could still find some common ground against the neutral evil druid who believes that all forms of human(or humanoid) construction must be destroyed and unmade.

[Allianis]

Just throwing it out there, Caramon and Raistlin Majere did NOT have a fun time trying to pull this off.

[Ephemeral_Being]

Just throwing it out there, Caramon and Raistlin Majere did NOT have a fun time trying to pull this off.

First off, Caramon wasn't a Paladin. He has no particular allegiance to any one god, possessed no magical abilities, and was not bound to service by a divine entity. He kept track of Raistlin because someone had to. And, in the end, he DID pull it off. He stopped Raistlin from becoming a god and destroying the world.

As a dynamic, it works. Following the rules for a Paladin, not so much.

Why not just play a Lawful Good Warblade?

[Vhaidara]

I actually did a similar character set in a Mythic game

LG was a Human Daevic, from Dreamscarred Press' Akashic Mysteries. Daevics are possessed by a creature known as a Daeva, which is a spirit of pure emotion. It's less of a full takeover possession and more of a strong influence kind of thing. In Jason's case, he was possessed by an Incubus named Natalshin. This happened when he interfered with a ritual to summon Natalshin, and the incubus' powers fed into his own, making him extremely charming and also immortal. However, a paladin who had been hunting Natalshin's cult found and trained Jason to be a good man, even though he knew his student was possessed.

Now, Daevics of the Desire Passion have the option of gaining a Paramour, which is like a cohort. I grabbed a succubus by the name of Setis. Standard, run of the mill, CE Succubus. She was Natalshin's lover. So her goal was to tempt Jason into falling to Evil. Jason, meanwhile, had inherited Natalshin's feelings for Setis, but not his lack of morality. He wanted to be with her, but on his terms: with her redeemed to the side of Good, rather than him falling.

Sadly, the game didn't go too far, but it was an interesting dynamic to play with. Setis would use her wiles, but never anything stronger than Suggestion as far as magic goes, and Jason would do his best to clean up whatever messes she made.

[Troacctid]

A Paladin who travels with an evil character, preventing them from doing evil deeds, in hopes of redeeming them...sure, the Paladin's not going to fall for that, as long as he sticks to his principles and does what he reasonably can to keep the evil character in line. Paladins aren't under a mandate to kill anyone who's evil. Rehabilitation and forgiveness are absolutely on the table. I mean, depending on which specific deity you follow, it may be against your religion--some patrons are less forgiving than others--but if the cosmology of the setting permits it, you can also just be a Paladin without devoting yourself to a deity, and totally pull this off without violating your code.

(The exception is if you're trying to rehabilitate an evil outsider, in which case you need more ranks in Knowledge (The Planes), because then you'd know that evil outsiders are formed out of elemental evil and are inherently irredeemable. But we're dealing with vanilla humans here, so that's thankfully not an issue.)

[Vhaidara]

(The exception is if you're trying to rehabilitate an evil outsider, in which case you need more ranks in Knowledge (The Planes), because then you'd know that evil outsiders are formed out of elemental evil and are inherently irredeemable. But we're dealing with vanilla humans here, so that's thankfully not an issue.)

As demonstrated by the fact that a Succubus Paladin is canon, this is completely false.

[Psyren]

Just throwing it out there, Caramon and Raistlin Majere did NOT have a fun time trying to pull this off.

Raistlin wasn't actually CE most of the time they were adventuring together. In fact he pretty clearly started out as CN or TN since you have to be morally neutral to be a red robe. When he crossed his moral event horizon (well, I think it happened more than once with him, but abandoning his brother and the rest of the party to drown in a maelstrom was probably the main moment) they did more or less stop associating, or at least associating in the same way they had before.


As demonstrated by the fact that a Succubus Paladin is canon, this is completely false.

Even she is still made of evil though, as evidenced by the subtype. And she gets the worst of both worlds when it comes to things that care about alignment, e.g. she can be hit with both Smite Evil and Smite Good.

[Vhaidara]

Even she is still made of evil though, as evidenced by the subtype. And she gets the worst of both worlds when it comes to things that care about alignment, e.g. she can be hit with both Smite Evil and Smite Good.

Not really sure what you're point is. I was answering the claim that an evil outsider was completely irredeemable.

[Psyren]

Not really sure what you're point is. I was answering the claim that an evil outsider was completely irredeemable.

That you can still fall for associating with her because she counts as evil as well as good.

Basically the check is "is it evil? Y/N" rather than "is it not good? Y/N"

[Vhaidara]

That you can still fall for associating with her because she counts as evil as well as good.

Basically the check is "is it evil? Y/N" rather than "is it not good? Y/N"

Well, I think that's actually disproved by the fact that she hasn't fallen from associating with herself. Also, that's less relevant to the issue at hand (this thread is tagged Roleplaying) and more relevant to the discussion of how drunk the monkey who wrote the 3.5 paladin's code of conduct was (answer: not as drunk as the one that wrote the Paladin of Slaughter's Code)

[DrMotives]

My brother had a similar concept, only it was a brother & sister. The brother was Sir Valiant, the LG paladin who was something of a Duddly Do-right knockoff. He consistently got his own family name wrong, it wasn't Valiant but Violet. Lady Violet was a scheming manipulative LE mage ( can't recall if she was a wizard or sorcerer), who managed to feed her brother just enough information so his good acts fell into her plans and did evil overall, but he was blissfully unaware of it.

[Red Fel]

The point is that you can be an LG anything else and possibly manage this. But a Paladin falls, per RAW, full stop.

Assuming your LG isn't a Paladin, can it be done? Technically yes, but with difficulty. Here's why. An LG character cannot abide knowing that acts of CE-ness will be committed and do nothing to stop them. Attempting to redeem the CE is one thing, but if you know that a character is going to do something Evil and destructive, and do nothing, you must at some point be responsible for your failure to act. Eventually, although you won't turn Evil, you can't really claim to be wholly Good anymore. Conversely, a CE character who is willing to restrain his Evil inclinations may remain Evil, but after a time he won't be Chaotic anymore. Chaotic characters don't need to be creatures of whimsy, but they are creatures of freedom and individuality; one who willingly rejects himself and his nature for the will of another is exercising obedience, not individuality, and cannot remain Chaotic for long.

There are other complications as well, but these are the big ones. Is it possible? Yes. But frankly, I think you're better off going LE and CG than LG and CE. An LE can work with anybody, since he can justify it as manipulation; a CG can work with anybody, because they're masters of justifying their individuality in the name of the greater good. Try that combo instead; you might be surprised.

[Vhaidara]

Actually, it just occurred to me that my first group did this. We had 2 LN and a CE who were travelling together. the CE was full on orphanage burning evil, and whenever they were asked "why are you travelling with him", the answer was "It's better this way".

While he was with them, they could aim him (okay, incinerate that goblin or we beat you up), but whenever they tried to ditch him, he showed up about a week later. Then they would hear stories about horrible atrocities that were committed during the time of separation.

[Jendekit]

I was not expecting this kind of a response in just 3 hours. Thanks a bunch everyone who replied!

Some of the comments brought up things that I think need clarifying. The paladin doesn't let his brother just do whatever act of destruction and/or evil he likes, if he knows that his brother has something planned or is tempted to go off on something (some random NPC insults him or something), he will do his absolute best to stop his brother from committing whatever evil act he is thinking about doing. His justification of attempting to redeem his brother isn't lip service, it is genuine. He explains his reasoning for almost every action, trying to get his brother to see the logic behind being not-evil. Is he this patient with any other evil doer? Good gods no, but he puts up with his brother because he refuses to consider the alternative.

As for the other half of this duo, the sorcerer doesn't have any long term goals, and really his only "goals" in life are the freedom to lay with whores, drink cheap booze, and blow stuff up in that order of importance. He travels with his paladin brother because it means he gets to sample a wide variety of women, drinks, and blow people up without being run out of town by people more dangerous than he himself is. He's not stupid, he knows that he can't just walk into town and start slinging spells at the first person he meets. Well, he could but the town guard are better trained and equipped than he is to start with (the character would be level 1 at some point). He's capable of delaying gratification, just not to the scale of Lawful Evil or Neutral Evil.

[Psyren]

Well, I think that's actually disproved by the fact that she hasn't fallen from associating with herself.

Giggity :smalltongue:

However this doesn't prove anything, unless you have a quote that says "you are your own associate" or something similar. The PHB uses "adventure with," "henchmen," "followers" and "cohorts" but says nothing about you yourself.

[Th3N3xtGuy]

I think the paladin would lose their powers. If I recall correctly, they're not allowed to associate with evil.

If you're going for a full opposites theme, why not make the LG character a fighter? They'd be opposites in alignment as well as combat style (mundane vs magic).

Why be a fighter when you can be a Crusader. The love child of a fighter's big brother the Warblade mix with Pally AND no way to fall from graces.

[atemu1234]

I think the paladin would lose their powers. If I recall correctly, they're not allowed to associate with evil.

If you're going for a full opposites theme, why not make the LG character a fighter? They'd be opposites in alignment as well as combat style (mundane vs magic).


Book says he falls.

The only way this thread works is if we hang the book. As it should be, to be honest.